MissBee Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 Yes, my logic is definitely skewed! In my mind, I feel like I can keep my emotions in check, have a brief affair(or a same time next year affair), separate, remain friends, and continue on without anyone finding out anything! Absolutely insane, I guess. Yes it is insane. It's only a temporary bandaid natty. I think right now you want a release so really are convincing yourself this can work, but it probably won't play out as seamlessly as you would like. I think it's more beneficial to figure out a more long term solution to your lack of intimacy and marital issues than short term "fixes", which may in fact leave you worse off. I have never cheated on anyone but I am a very affectionate person who needs emotional intimacy, who needs to be touched and shown affection, even more so than mere sex, as sex isn't intimacy. So if I had a spouse who refused that, I would be tempted if some man I'm attracted to was showing me affection; so I get it. But before you run off and do this to feel better now...you have to try to really think of the longterm. I really think you should suggest marriage counseling....demand it actually. That way you can either improve your marriage so you're staying together for healthy reasons and can be satisfied OR you can work out a way to go your separate ways OR you can have an alternative marriage arrangement. This way you can take care of your needs in a healthier way with less damage to your family/kids/yourself and if this dude is married too, finding someone else so you aren't a party to his drama. 5
BrokenPrincess Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 ^^ Agree with all this. It doesn't really sound like you want an A, it sounds like you really just want your H to step up. Am I way off, or was your H also the one who would rarely shower? Sorry if Ive got you mixed up but your description overweight & drinking too much made me think he's depressed and reminded me of an older thread.
2sunny Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 Yes, my logic is definitely skewed! In my mind, I feel like I can keep my emotions in check, have a brief affair(or a same time next year affair), separate, remain friends, and continue on without anyone finding out anything! Absolutely insane, I guess. You call it insane - I call it downright mean. 1
Calvin's wagon Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 (edited) natty moppet, I think it's really important that you are putting your (and theirs) children's interests first, I just hope that your defense mechanisms/desires/... won't be able to, like you said, skew your thinking so much that you'll somehow get to the point of thinking that "it's better or the same" for them if you have an affair than if you get a divorce/continue with the status quo, or convince yourself that they won't be affected. And at least unlike many other people in the world, you've sought some help before acting on your urges, which again, considering everything, is really important and good! So I hope the following words won't be taken as harsh or hostile, I'm just trying to tell you what I wish someone had explained to my parents 15, 20 years ago... I would also advise you to try individual counselling, like others have suggested. You've mentioned that you tried marriage counselling 2x, but you haven't mentioned anything in response to the suggestion of individual counselling - if I may ask, what do you think about this? Secondly, I got the impression that you think that a divorce will affect your children much worse than staying married (with or without the affair...). I think that this is something you have to realize isn't true - the internet and books are full of studies and psychological explanations why it's better to divorce than to let children grow up in such a toxic environment. I hope someone here will give you their suggestions of good books, sites, ... , to check it out for yourself, but some of them you might find here -> (Are You in an Unhappy Marriage Just for Your Children? | Dr. Neill Neill's Practical Psychology , Top misguided reasons to stay in a bad marriage , Susan Forward - Toxic Parents (available online in pdf for free) ->I think if you read this book, you might discover reasons from your childhood why you are behaving&thinking like you are now...) Some excerpts: "When you stay in an unfulfilling, unhappy or even abusive marriage, children come to believe that relationships are experiences that entail suffering, pain and even a slow death. You are not happy, your spouse is not happy and, in turn, your kids are not happy." "How a couple divorces does more to determine how well children fare than the mere fact that they divorced." "If you are not happy, your children will undoubtedly feel that and suffer on some level as well, even if you don’t think your unhappiness shows. Children (and all of us, for that matter) are negatively impacted by being exposed to a loveless, tense, angry environment, regardless of the circumstances in which it has been created." "The issue for the children’s health and development is not whether the parents are together or apart, but how well they handle conflict. If separating gives them space to cool down and co-parent with mutual respect, the children, as children, will be better off than when their parents were together. Later, as adult children of parents who were separated, they can draw on a model that says you don’t have to go down with a sinking ship. Their parents didn’t unravel the family by separating. Rather, they separated because the family had already unraveled. Would you want your daughter or son to stay in a chronically unhappy marriage? Then be careful what you model." Basically, if you're trying to do what's best for your children, staying in an unhappy marriage (with our without the affair) will possibly/likely hurt them tremendously and they will (consciously or subconsciously) "learn" a lot of bad behaviour and they will soak up all the negative emotions, unhappiness,..., that are present in the toxic environment. And you might think that you are successful in hiding these and protecting your children, but from personal experience I can tell you that children are much more perceptive than we think. Sometimes I wish that my parents had sat me down when I was 5, 6, 7 years and told me that they were getting a divorce, that they still loved me and that it wasn't my fault, and then both (or at least one!!) of them proceeding to take good care of me even after the divorce. Anything to get me out of that toxic environment where I spent many days wondering if they would divorce, trying my best and tearing myself apart trying to make them happy, blaming myself for not succeeding,... I had no idea what was going on and they never explained it, they just left me to stew in that toxic environment, thinking "it is best for our children if we stay together". And if you check my other posts, you'll see how screwed up my parents left me b/c of this. They "taught" me how to avoid problems, stay in toxic relationships, suffer what I shouldn't suffer. I didn't need them to stay together, I needed them to be grown-ups and deal with their problems, I needed to get away from the toxic environment, I needed someone to tell me and show me that it's not my responsibility to make my parents happy/stop being miserable, someone to explain to me that "mommy and daddy were having problems between themselves, like all friends do, but that no matter what happened between them, they would still love, it wouldn't be my fault,...". My parents aren't divorced, but several of my friends' parents are, and a lot of these friends are much more stable and normal than I am, and I can see in them how great they've grown up... So stop your defense mechanisms (especially rationalization) & protect your children from growing up in the toxic environment (with or without the affair). And having an affair will in my opinion teach them another bad behaviour and further erode the trust&bond between you and them... Sometimes I wonder if my parents had affairs, and it would really hurt me to find out, especially after my ex gf cheating on me... I would feel betrayed by them, like I felt betrayed by her. Like others have said, maybe the threat of separation/divorce will finally get your husband to change... Even if you ultimately stay married to your husband, you can't go on like this - it will really hurt your children, in my opinion, much more than getting divorced and showing your children that they should address their problems and not persevere&suffer in toxic relationship. In any case, I wish all of you, especially the children in both families, all the best! And I hope you continue to come here and talk to us, and take it one day at a time not having an affair and one day at a time trying to do the best to make your children be loved and closer to not being in a toxic environment. I think your actions so far (all the efforts in MC,..., seeking help here,...) show that you do care very much for your children, but that perhaps your own issues (from childhood,...) and inexperience are clouding your judgment from seeing what is best for the children and as well as yourself. I'd write more if you want, but I'll stop here. I hope others, more experienced posters than I am, will continue to give their advice! I really hope we'll hear more from you! Best wishes:bunny: Edited April 3, 2013 by Calvin's wagon 4
waterwoman Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 TELL you H that you either want an open marriage or that you are seriously contemplating an affair. Of course he wasn't all that keen on the open marriage idea - it wasn't him that would benefit. If he isn't taking your concerns seriously I am guessing that a genuine threat to the status quo would do it. Or end the marriage. Either of which would be better. Shagging a bloke who is married with children behind your H's back is just the worst possible option. What the heck has she done to you? 2
Pierre Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 I forgot to add: The OP has been in an EA for two years. Once a person enters into an EA the negatives of the spouse at home become magnified. And the positives of the spouse at home become invisible. All of this is needed to justify the affair. I agree, with AS. OP needs to say those words to her H and proceed. Furthermore, OP is 50% responsible for the boring marriage. OP is also responsible for the depression and unhappiness of her H. It works both ways. Otherwise, I recommend divorce. But, she will not divorce. Why? Because deep down inside she is a cake eater. 1
Author natty moppet Posted April 3, 2013 Author Posted April 3, 2013 Thank you LFH. I am in no way responsible for my H's depression. He has been that way for years--long before I started the EA. Plus it's only been a few months that I have been actually talking to the other man. Prior to that, strictly minor flirting when we saw each other a few times a year. It takes two to be in an unhappy marriage, I agree. His depression contributes more to that scenerio than just two people who have checked out, or are not trying. Part of his depression, I think, comes from the anger he has toward his father and the way in which he dumped my h's Mom-when my H was in his mid 20s. (total sidebar there) I am naive--I have no idea what a 'cakeeater' is.
Author natty moppet Posted April 3, 2013 Author Posted April 3, 2013 "I've explained numerous time that I'm not happy. To the point where I even Discussed having an open marriage to get our needs met. You say no and insist that things will change, but they don't. This is my last offer: if we don't go to marital counseling, start having two date nights a month, start being more affectionate and increase the sex as well as it's intensity: then I'm filing for divorce because I refuse to give another two decades to someone who won't even attempt to meet my needs for the betterment of our relationship. I am so desperate i have considered cheating. That's WHY I'm having this talk, if we aren't on the path to something better by summer, when I f another man it won't be cheating: you will have been full warned and I will begin the open marriage." That's the talk necessary to not be a cheat. Give it, this way you know you really tried and can't have infidelity thrown at you for an accusation. I will give this a try. I really don't want to cheat, especially for the kids and OMW. It goes against my values, as I have mentioned before. Its not just the sex though...there is a certain chemistry between myself and OM. I am not (and was not) looking. I was shocked at the initial gesture--his first advances. He pulled me in that way...prior to, I had no idea he was looking at me like that. I have absolutely no desire to go find someone else for an A. It will be him or I will repair things with H. I think I come on here because I know what I am considering is terrible. It helps to have that reinforced--reality check I guess.
Got it Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 1. You seek external validation, the most common cause for affairs. 2. MId life crisis 3. Depressed H 4. Bored The above cannot be resolved with an affair. The affair will be a billion times more harmful than simply divorcing your H. You will be label as the "whore, slut, homewrecker" by all. Just read the forum. You will destroy the life of your friend "the potential BW", your kids will resent you forever. By all? I wouldn't consider her those things. So that defutes the all. 1
cocorico Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 Today you don't have it. You did not read the entire thread. And, it seems, you did not even read an entire post! You had posted: . You will be label as the "whore, slut, homewrecker" by all. To which Got It responded: By all? I wouldn't consider her those things. So that defutes the all. Your reply to her is condescending and ironic, given that it was your own comprehension skills at fault here. 1
twosadthings Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 Your husband is depressed. Whatever the reason shouldn't you be concerned about helping him get better rather than making his life infinately worse? If tomorrow, God forbid, you learned of a negative result for your Pap test or mamography and six months from now were bald and on chemo would you expect your husband to qualitatively assess your appeal? You have asked a question and received alot of remarkably, particularly for this forum, consistant answers. There will ultimately be only one last question for you to answer as you stand knee deep in the wreckage of your family life, ..."Was it worth it?" Twosadthings 1
Author natty moppet Posted April 4, 2013 Author Posted April 4, 2013 Natty, I know my posts probably sounded a little harsh, but my intent is good. I am not unsympathetic to your marriage problems or your husbands depression and how it affects you and your life, but the best solution and the least damaging to all parties including yourself is to give him a ultimatum IF you find it so intolerable. Tell him to get up off his arse and get to the doctor or........you will file for divorce. Not easy I know, but since you've said having an affair is against your values, (raises hand here) you can't know the damage you will cause yourself down the road, and your kids.......that is whole other level of a shytestorm and they don't deserve that. Divorce is the better alternative if it comes to that and then you can look at yourself and walk tall and not feel that you didn't do the right things. I'm the daughter of a father who cheated.......the damage is not really fixable natty, oh you learn to deal with it, but it is not fixable, and your children will be more at risk of making the same bad choices that you are contemplating. I know this.......I have lived it. I hope you hear me................. I do hear you and I believe what you are saying. It will take me a while to wrap my head around (and get) the divorce. I have threatened it in the past, but H has always talked me out of it--of course by saying he would do X,Y,and Z. Then time goes by, he does nothing, and here we are again. The only difference this time is that I am contemplating an A. In the past, I there was no OM for me to consider. I really believe my H will not change no matter what I say or do-that is his track record. I guess it is up to me to follow through. Still, I feel I am being just as selfish by seeking out the divorce. It is a higher moral ground, I guess. Despite all the good advice, kids are scarred by divorce, and its really hard to think of doing that to them as well.
Got it Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Today you don't have it. You did not read the entire thread. OP has said: post #20 1-He is not that into me, though he says he is-words don't match his behavior. Example: Does not laugh at my jokes, when others do-ever. This is usually because he is preoccupied with the tv, btw. post #20 I also believe that due to recent events, I am feeling my mortality more. I find myself thinking that we only get one life!! post #31 Yes, some attention and validation would be nice. I am not looking for this constantly,but occasionally would be nice. Attention and validation are a part of every relationship. :cool: Pierre. What part of what I wrote do you not understand? You said all. I don't agree. Thus ALL is negated. Comprendo?
spice4life Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 I do hear you and I believe what you are saying. It will take me a while to wrap my head around (and get) the divorce. I have threatened it in the past, but H has always talked me out of it--of course by saying he would do X,Y,and Z. Then time goes by, he does nothing, and here we are again. The only difference this time is that I am contemplating an A. In the past, I there was no OM for me to consider. I really believe my H will not change no matter what I say or do-that is his track record. I guess it is up to me to follow through. Still, I feel I am being just as selfish by seeking out the divorce. It is a higher moral ground, I guess. Despite all the good advice, kids are scarred by divorce, and its really hard to think of doing that to them as well. I happen to be someone who left a dysfunctional marriage and my kids are far better today BECAUSE I did. It all depends on how you handle it. Plus why do you think you wont have a dual income home with someone else who is a better match? Anyway, it's more damaging to kids to stay in a dysfunctional relationship than it is to show them that people can make changes that are better for all involved. Hitting on your husband's friend shows a lack of values too. Not to mention what it will teach your children if you're caught. Let's way the two lessons: 1) have an affair with a friend of the family who also has a family or 2) being honest about your unhappiness and taking charge and doing somethng about it. Which one shows more integrity and good character? Stay if you want. And don't tell me divorce damages kids more than teaching them that it's okay to settle for a bad relationship. My kids would have been seriously damaged had I stayed and that WAS my main reason for leaving - to save them. I am happy I did.
Act Two Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 I haven't read the whole thread, but what you don't read too often (simply because there aren't more WS here) is that not only do you NOT deserve to be happy via destroying everyone in your path, but in seeking happiness on that path you will make yourself absolutely miserable too. Please don't do it. Try to see if you can fix your marriage without the distraction of an affair. If you throw in an affair you will never have clarity about your marriage. 1
ThatJustHappened Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 Natty, I don't understand how you can think a divorce is worse and more damaging than an affair, and I don't think I'm alone in that. Can you please try to explain that logic?
Author natty moppet Posted April 4, 2013 Author Posted April 4, 2013 Yes, well I have yet to see her address that aspect even though it has been mentioned several times. Well, I have addressed it several times if you read the whole thread. I love my OM's wife, and children and obviously would never want to hurt them either. ( I know I will get bashed for that as well, but it is true. I see this as a measure of my desperation, and perhaps a tangible way to force a decision about my own M.) Why am I on here, and why haven't I already taken the plunge as so many others on here have? Because of the collateral damage I would be causing. I get it, its horrible, I'd be a homewrecker and an awful person.
Author natty moppet Posted April 4, 2013 Author Posted April 4, 2013 The above about calling yourself selfish by getting a divorce, maybe, but maybe not, but what puzzles me is you call a frickin divorce selfish but you don't see that an affair is? Really? And then you go on to mention how divorce scars kids, wth do you think an affair does?? Oh it's much worse and most reasonable people see that. I'm thinking you are already in this affair, the only thing you haven't done is have sex. That could explain your altered thinking and you feeling like you are the victim of your marriage and your husband. Well you can even the score if you want, but at the cost of your integrity and likely a very high cost to your children, much higher than divorce, but I'm just incredulous that you can't fathom that. And hell-o, aren't you even thinking about the possibility that a divorce can happen anyway after your affair is out? Where is your logical thinking natty? I see now, it's already in the affair, you just haven't done the deed yet. I wasn't saying that the A wasn't selfish! Clearly it is-more selfish than getting a divorce. What I was saying is that I haven't gone through with the divorce to ease my own sadness because of the damage I feel it would do to my kids. I have already said numerous times on here that I know the A is wrong and horrible-doesn't mean I still don't want to do it. I think I am on here to try to stop living in the 'high' that the initial feelings cause and remember how bad of a choice it would be. You are wrong though, I am not in the A. Just talking right now.
Author natty moppet Posted April 4, 2013 Author Posted April 4, 2013 What is your definition of love? Apparently different than yours. In my world, you can experience two conflicting emotions at the same time!! Yes, I would hate to hurt my H, OM'sW, all the kids, but the attraction still exists. I am trying not to act on that feeling and I know(as I've admitted a lot now) that it is completely immoral. I think I'm done getting beat up for now-it's expected, but I'm done. Thanks!
Author natty moppet Posted April 4, 2013 Author Posted April 4, 2013 I haven't read the whole thread, but what you don't read too often (simply because there aren't more WS here) is that not only do you NOT deserve to be happy via destroying everyone in your path, but in seeking happiness on that path you will make yourself absolutely miserable too. Please don't do it. Try to see if you can fix your marriage without the distraction of an affair. If you throw in an affair you will never have clarity about your marriage. I know you are right. Agreed.
Calvin's wagon Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 natty moppet, I'm not sure if you've read my post (page 3) and posts of other telling you that not only is an affair more damaging to kids (and others) than a divorce, but that staying in a toxic marriage is more damaging to kids (and others) than a divorce. I have read several of the posters here giving you excellent advice how to show your husband that it's either time to change (treating depression, etc.) or divorce, and that this is his final chance. May I ask what you think about their advice? Best wishes to everyone!
veryhappy Posted April 4, 2013 Posted April 4, 2013 You are confining yourself into a corner where divorce is not an option. Your choice. May I suggest you find a different AP if you concluded your way of coping was an A? If you love his wife and don't want to hurt them, the outcome will be very far from that. Pick someone else who's not entangled in your real life. If you want this man in particular, I suggest you discuss transitioning to a real relationship as soon as possible. To think that you'll do this and it won't end up badly is naive. Your scenario where the families are friends is the worst.
Author natty moppet Posted April 4, 2013 Author Posted April 4, 2013 This is something that LFH posted on another thread, (she was speaking about men and their wives not responding to them physically) but it sums up exactly how I feel about my M. 'It is counterproductive, and some HAVE legitimately tried, many on multiple occasions to make things better before they did have an affair. Some are just jerks, but a lot have REALLY tried. I have to ask, how many times can a person be told no in a year before they get tired of being rejected? How many years in a row can/should they tolerate it? How long before the resentment eats away at the love and caring that they have. If they don't want to tolerate it anymore, why should they in essence have to give up the lifestyle THEY wanted, the life for their kids they wanted, the home that they built in many cases, just because they want someone to touch them intimately on something other than national holidays.' That completely sums up why I would even consider the A. I really think you all have effectively talked me down from the ledge, but I really don't want to get a D, and that seems to be my only option at this point...
spice4life Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 (edited) LOL...I'm not bashing anyone, but I think it's funny that people are suggesting she find a "single" guy. Affairs are much harder emotionally on us "single" people because we are not in the same mind set the "married" folk are in. We have a hard time navigating the emotional aspects of the affair because we aren't going home to the same stuff, crap or situation a married person is. A lot of times the single AP ends up hoping things will change and they often "unconsciously" put their dating life on hold because they feel like it would be cheating etc. (Ironic, I know. :rollseyes: ) It's hard to stop feelings once they start. I suggest the opposite...get involved with another maried person who isn't tangled in your life as a friend. Sounds silly and I admit it is a bit selfish of me to even suggest it. The best thing to do is to just take charge of your own happiness and make the appropriate changes. But I'm not living the OP's life so she needs to do whatever is right for her I guess. To the OP - when people are suggesting to not get involved in an affair they aren't bashing you, they are merely pointing out that it is a very difficult road fraught with a bunch of pot holes. Enter at your own risk as you've been warned. You need tough skin to survive it which you may have since you're in a relationship with a guy who has anger issues. Good luck. Edited April 5, 2013 by spice4life
underwater2010 Posted April 5, 2013 Posted April 5, 2013 This is something that LFH posted on another thread, (she was speaking about men and their wives not responding to them physically) but it sums up exactly how I feel about my M. 'It is counterproductive, and some HAVE legitimately tried, many on multiple occasions to make things better before they did have an affair. Some are just jerks, but a lot have REALLY tried. I have to ask, how many times can a person be told no in a year before they get tired of being rejected? How many years in a row can/should they tolerate it? How long before the resentment eats away at the love and caring that they have. If they don't want to tolerate it anymore, why should they in essence have to give up the lifestyle THEY wanted, the life for their kids they wanted, the home that they built in many cases, just because they want someone to touch them intimately on something other than national holidays.' That completely sums up why I would even consider the A. I really think you all have effectively talked me down from the ledge, but I really don't want to get a D, and that seems to be my only option at this point... You want an answer to how long you can be told no. Lets take it from a man's point of view.....my father (who has passed). Five long and sexless years. You know what he did to keep his family intact. Porn and masturbation. That is SELFLESS, that is INTEGRITY, and that is the example any married person should set for the future generations. Get over the fact that you are denied an orgasm from you partner....no loves you better than yourself anyways. However...if you cannot live like that, then divorce your spouse instead of cheating with warning as to why ahead of time.
Recommended Posts