Beating a dead horse?

[Older 'n' wiser]

I'm 10 months out from d-Day, now living abroad with my daughter. I was planning to go back to my husband in a few weeks and try - again. Now, I don't know - again.

 

Summary: We're older, have lived apart for work a lot. I was faithful through all of it but last year discovered he'd been having an intense emotional affair with my sister-in-law. Confrontation, trickle truth, many months and shocking revelations later I found out he'd had 4 affairs. He claims that only the first one involved intercourse. After the first d-Day, I decided we should move out of my brother's house and get as far away from the situation as possible. So, while I stuffed the years of our lives into boxes, he finished his job, and we went through 2 months of MC. He was remorseful, accepted culpability without excuse, asked often to be forgiven, was never resentful about my constant need to talk and process. We left in early Nov., making most of the trip half-way across the country silence or listening to books.

 

Did I mention that H is the most uncommunicative person you could ever meet; everyone who knows him agrees. When the MC therapist had us do personality tests, his was this introverted deliberative type who constantly mulls in silence, rarely revealing his thoughts. Add to that our distance and the fact that we were both in a kind of post-affair-trauma trauma, communication has been either mundane or difficult.

 

We 'moved' to one of his relatives' house. I left a week later and have been abroad ever since. I have only gotten him to talk about it once while abroad. He confessed to the extent of his physical involvement with one of our friends many years ago. I still could not let it go. I tried to say what I was feeling by email but literally hundreds of messages have never been sent. With the lack of give-and-take, I started really obsessing some months ago.

 

Whether he did or didn't really have penetration is less awful to than the fact that that would mean he’d continued lying, either outright or by omission. This began completely and horribly eating at me. Finally I asked if we could talk again, I let it all out, how I still couldn't trust that he'd been honest and doubted everything. I cried, talked and said I needed him to tell me everything. He listened, bowed his head, looked perplexed and we did try to talk. Then he said something really stupid as I tried to talk about the first affair: It was just a fling. I flipped. We haven't spoke since.

 

There’s only so much you can do in a skype call. The next day I wrote the email below, which I think I’ll post separately. Mainly I think that trying to work through this thing at such a distance is itself creating far more problems and mistrust. We have been apart so much. Plus my ignorance and acceptance of the strange come-and-go marriage clearly clearly made it too easy to fall into another relationship - especially one as needy and responsive as the situation with my SIL was (quadriplegic brother, etc.).

 

On the other hand, if I can’t let it go and he can’t help me, then the only way I will get better is to let him go. I told him that in the skype call. I still believe that he wants (wanted?) to reconcile. I can only do so if he admits everything about who he was and why he did what he did. I feel like I should go back and give it some time. Make him go to IC. Try again. See if he can do what I need him to do to forgive. See how far his commitment really does extend. Am I beating a dead horse?

[Older 'n' wiser]

This is what I wrote him the next day after the tortuous skype call:

 

 

I'll start with the positive. At least we started. It was right for me to learn exactly what happened with [OW2]. At least that much got clear. I feel no rancor about it now. Just relief. It is very clear and believable, no questions, no doubts. Most important: My imagination is at rest because I know the story now and it makes sense. I believe you. The sadness and paralysis lifted for a few hours. [Also, that story - as the stories go - is not so bad. The real saving grace is OW2 herself. She had a natural, unquestioning truthfulness. It was the first thing out of her mouth when she knew I was on the phone. She bared all. You were the opposite.]

 

I saw that you became more and more unable to talk this morning. Perhaps it's not possible without a therapist. I wonder though if you really want to do anything with me. I certainly don't feel it.

 

But there's another problem now. You said [in reference to Affair #1]:

It was just a fling.

 

I guess something happens to you when I keep talking. But then you never say anything, so I fill in. And then, suddenly here it comes. You say just the most godawful worst thing you could possibly say. But the point is that you actually thought it. It's the word "just."

 

Can you do or say anything about that statement or your saying of it at that moment that can save this situation? I can't imagine what it would be but wish it possible. It's as if you are still a very confused, hormonal adolescent trapped inside an old man's body.

 

Let me help you here:

There is nothing in that statement about the marriage or the betrayed spouse. There is no feeling, no remorse in that statement. It minimizes the fact of the betrayal. It implies that it is not wrong because it was brief and casual.

 

You have to be able to convince me that you see things as a mature adult man who is able and willing to commit to a healthy, loving, respectful and honorable monogamous relationship. If you can't understand what marriage is supposed to be and that really the flings and the flirtations and the petting were not so bad after all and I should just get over it, then the truth is just a nuisance. And why should you tell me the truth when it causes so much disruption? Obviously keeping me in the dark was preferable all those years and served to make us further and further apart. It is why I am crushed and jealous of your intimacy with [OW4 - the SIL].

 

I may not be the young woman I was then, but she is a part of me and I grieve her degradation. I grieve for the wife that was dismissed from this story and all the others. I feel so sad and ashamed on her behalf. She never had any say or importance in this or other stories in a life that was supposed to be, but was not, shared. She was abused, discarded, left alone and never given the dignity of the truth.

 

But please, I do see that you don't feel the need to tell me the truth because I am important to you. So anything else will make it forced and will just make me feel more alone. If you were truly remorseful, you would want to show me, convince me to believe that you had changed. You would be able to tell me what you did because of your utter rejection of those actions and the person who did them. You would fight for me and be able to wait and endure whatever difficulty I went through. You would be able to renew your commitment to a real marriage.

 

But you can't. You just didn't want to be shamed publicly or OW4. You and she had a plan for damage control. That's why you stayed with me. You really don't feel that bad for me - just for what you did.

[Spark1111]

Only you can decide if he is

 

TRULY remorseful, Totally transparent and doing everything in his power to restore your trust and help you heel.

 

Only you can decide if he gets it and will work hard to prove to you he will be a better spouse, a faithful and devoted one for the future.

 

If you cannot get what you need, get to forgiveness and find happiness with him and the relationship as it is now, then yes, you may be beating a dead horse.

 

There are only three choices, accept him (which includes his inability to communicate in the way you would like him to) , accept the affairs as part of your past, or walk away.

 

No one else can make this decision for you.

[Spark1111]

Ten months from DDay, I was just starting to hit the angry, resentful phase.

 

Go back to IC and MC...give it at least a year. It's hard to determine what could transpire, especially since you have not lived together for so long.

 

That is a little dangerous. You've had all of the anger but none of the potential joy because you have not lived together.

 

You can give it the old college try....or you could pull the trigger now and not return.

 

What is your gut telling you?

[TiredFamilyGuy]

Doesn't sound like you've much in common. You talk a lot. He doesn't. You say you live apart for work reasons - who took this step I ask? Hard to have a marriage without cohabitation. It's possible one partner might feel resentment over that. Doesn't sound like you've much opportunity to talk things out. Without that, no way forwards. Quoting your own huge email berating him for one word of a five word sentence adds to that impression.

[BetrayedH]

First off, I'm just plain sorry for what you're going through. It brings back a lot of memories for me of how difficult trying to reconcile really is. It was just plain torturous for me to try to decide between staying or going. I think what sucked so badly was that there seemed to be no good choices; there was no winning. You have my sympathies.

 

I'm also very curious about your husband's response. You said you laid out what you needed in your Skype call and then in your email you expanded on why what you're currently getting is not working. I read that he "still wants to reconcile" but what I didn't hear is that he's ready to step up and actually do what you've asked. After all this time, I'm getting the impression that what he would really like is for you to get over it without such a fuss. He doesn't want his world blown up but he doesn't really want to do much of anything either. So, he'll do the absolute bare minimum to keep you pacified. Is that really doing what you needed and asked for? After all he's done, do you really want a man that you have to "make" go to IC? Do you think you've been unclear? His words say he wants to reconcile but his actions say he doesn't want to do anything to make it happen. I don't want to discourage you from reconciling but I'm not inclined to encourage you either. I guess what I am saying is that his response (both words and actions) would probably be critical to the decision for me. What frustrates me is that after all this time, he still doesn't even seem to have the words, let alone the actions. But I am not there.

 

Lastly, I do think that the distance between you has got to be adding to the difficulty or reconciling. You cannot bond being apart from each other for weeks or months at a time. Maybe you're different from me but I needed to be close to my wife; if I was going to reconcile, I needed pretty consistent affirmation that I was doing the right thing and that meant seeing a lot of affection, remorse, and reassurance. If you're going to give it the old college try as Spark says, I think you need a long period without any extended trips. It's also possible that you've done that already.

 

Good luck, MM. I think you're asking the right questions. I hope you find peace, regardless of the answers.

[Older 'n' wiser]

Only you can decide if he is

 

TRULY remorseful, Totally transparent and doing everything in his power to restore your trust and help you heel.

 

Only you can decide if he gets it and will work hard to prove to you he will be a better spouse, a faithful and devoted one for the future.

 

If you cannot get what you need, get to forgiveness and find happiness with him and the relationship as it is now, then yes, you may be beating a dead horse.

 

There are only three choices, accept him (which includes his inability to communicate in the way you would like him to) , accept the affairs as part of your past, or walk away.

 

No one else can make this decision for you.

 

TRULY remorseful? Yes, I think so.

Totally transparent ? Yes and no.

--Yes, I can dig into anything I want and I do. I read his emails daily from here. I have no doubt he's being 'good' but that's hardly the point at this stage. I wouldn't have expected otherwise.

--No, because he has such a hard time digging into the past with me

"There are only three choices, accept him (which includes his inability to communicate in the way you would like him to) , accept the affairs as part of your past, or walk away." Perceptive, considered and pricked a nerve. Thinking a lot about this. His "inability to communicate in the way you would like him to" is a theme for sure.

 

"Only you can decide if he gets it and will work hard to prove to you he will be a better spouse, a faithful and devoted one for the future." And the decision won't necessarily make it happen, but I can decide how much better I think the odds are now than before.

 

I know I'm keep repeating and repeating. I post on other threads and sound like I really get it, am clear-thinking and see so many sides but when it comes to my own situation, mush-brain.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Older 'n' wiser
too long - edited formatting

[Older 'n' wiser]

Doesn't sound like you've much in common. You talk a lot. He doesn't. You say you live apart for work reasons - who took this step I ask? Hard to have a marriage without cohabitation. It's possible one partner might feel resentment over that. Doesn't sound like you've much opportunity to talk things out. Without that, no way forwards. Quoting your own huge email berating him for one word of a five word sentence adds to that impression.

 

Well, that's true and still we made it this long. How 'bout that? In good times, he admires my loquaciousness as my ability to express myself. In bad, I'm confrontational and nagging. For my part, I am generally critical and intolerant of the silence. The therapist with her "deliberative" personality assessment of him helped. The annoying SIL's sensitivity to his f---g sensitivity (I'm thinking of specific remarks here, hence the obscenity) is - I must admit - an incentive to be, in fact, more sensitive to it.

 

The living apart is a long story. We both did it. It was a mistake. We know it.

 

"Quoting your own huge email berating him for one word of a five word sentence adds to that impression." This is good. Thanks.

 

Yes, we haven't had a chance. That is the truth.

 

And thank you, all, for reading and processing all this.

[Older 'n' wiser]

I'm also very curious about your husband's response.

 

Lastly, I do think that the distance between you has got to be adding to the difficulty or reconciling. You cannot bond being apart from each other for weeks or months at a time. Maybe you're different from me but I needed to be close to my wife; if I was going to reconcile, I needed pretty consistent affirmation that I was doing the right thing and that meant seeing a lot of affection, remorse, and reassurance. If you're going to give it the old college try as Spark says, I think you need a long period without any extended trips. It's also possible that you've done that already.

 

Good luck, MM. I think you're asking the right questions. I hope you find peace, regardless of the answers.

 

I sent this last night but apparently the internet went out before it made it. Here's the response he sent:

I not asking for it to be over. I just don't know how or what you want me to do but rehash things that I truly and deeply regret and am sorry and ashamed for doing. I was outside when you called.

 

I have been in a total depressed state after our last talk and really don't know what to do to help you. I had hoped you would give me a chance to show you that I would work to make a better partner and husband and commit to living out our old age together. I absolutely want to make it work but rehashing the past just makes me more ashamed and unable to respond. Please can we just try to start a new dialogue that is forward looking rather than just crushing guilt of what I have done to you. I know I have caused you great suffering and pain. I am truly truly sorry. Please forgive me.

 

I think he means it. We need to be together to give it a chance. I still will need what I need in terms of explanation, details, "rehashing," but the MC can make that clear to him I hope. I'll try to hold on until then.

[BetrayedH]

I sent this last night but apparently the internet went out before it made it. Here's the response he sent:

 

 

I think he means it. We need to be together to give it a chance. I still will need what I need in terms of explanation, details, "rehashing," but the MC can make that clear to him I hope. I'll try to hold on until then.

 

Fair enough. I also think you need to make the case for IC. My answer would be that we can start looking forward but that we're nowhere near being done with looking back at this. You will not just get over it. If he can't handle his guilt and shame, make sure he knows the nearest exit. You need him to thoroughly understand "why" he cheated. If he understands it AND can face it, he might have a chance at avoiding this coping mechanism in the future and you might have some faith in him, which is exactly what makes you capable of looking forward. As long as he hides and cowers, you will have no fsith that he has this mastered and you will forever keep looking back at this. You csnnot go around infidelity; you must go through it with a Mack truck.

 

He has a chance at reconciliation. And it has everything to do with him being open, honest, introspective, and vulnerable. Asking you to stop looking back is exactly what is precluding your reconciliation. He should be the one looking back to right his wrongs and understand himself enough to avoid a repeat performance. That is what makes you comfortable enough to reconcile. He jeeds to he proactively trying to talk to you about it. The more he avoids the subject, the longer this will take and the higher risk of you throwing in the towel. It is HIS turn to do the heavy lifting. And if he does it, the lifting changes to you and your ability to forgive.

[2sunny]

Why would you have such a strong need to try and get connected to a guy who betrayed you 4 times?

 

HE'S not putting in the effort to repair all the damage HE caused - he's asking you to stick your head in the sand again and carry on with him... While he makes no effort to communicate and connect with you!

 

That's simply not good enough to make ant reconciliation work.

 

He's not emotionally stunted (as evidenced by his EA's) - yet he won't make effort to think of how YOU feel - enough to make a strong effort to get connected to you!

 

I don't see him being sorry he cheated - just sorry you've caught him - and wants little consequences - then pretend like he didn't do it.

 

That's not good enough!!!!!

 

Why even entertain the idea? He's really still being a total jerk!

[Older 'n' wiser]

Fair enough. I also think you need to make the case for IC. My answer would be that we can start looking forward but that we're nowhere near being done with looking back at this. You will not just get over it. If he can't handle his guilt and shame, make sure he knows the nearest exit. You need him to thoroughly understand "why" he cheated. If he understands it AND can face it, he might have a chance at avoiding this coping mechanism in the future and you might have some faith in him, which is exactly what makes you capable of looking forward. As long as he hides and cowers, you will have no fsith that he has this mastered and you will forever keep looking back at this. You csnnot go around infidelity; you must go through it with a Mack truck.

 

He has a chance at reconciliation. And it has everything to do with him being open, honest, introspective, and vulnerable. Asking you to stop looking back is exactly what is precluding your reconciliation. He should be the one looking back to right his wrongs and understand himself enough to avoid a repeat performance. That is what makes you comfortable enough to reconcile. He jeeds to he proactively trying to talk to you about it. The more he avoids the subject, the longer this will take and the higher risk of you throwing in the towel. It is HIS turn to do the heavy lifting. And if he does it, the lifting changes to you and your ability to forgive.

 

Whew. Thanks, BH, this is what we are about here - helping get those deep-down gut feelings and those high-sounding, lofty ideals together and balanced. We are the Greek tragedies, our stories, rolling out here in all their gory, inevitable gloom and you guys are the chorus - reflecting, voicing the protagonist's thoughts (which even s/he doesn't know), commenting, moralizing and always empathizing. This is good. It's in my pocket. It's me. Thanks.

[Older 'n' wiser]

Why would you have such a strong need to try and get connected to a guy who betrayed you 4 times?

 

HE'S not putting in the effort to repair all the damage HE caused - he's asking you to stick your head in the sand again and carry on with him... While he makes no effort to communicate and connect with you!

 

That's simply not good enough to make ant reconciliation work.

 

He's not emotionally stunted (as evidenced by his EA's) - yet he won't make effort to think of how YOU feel - enough to make a strong effort to get connected to you!

 

I don't see him being sorry he cheated - just sorry you've caught him - and wants little consequences - then pretend like he didn't do it.

 

That's not good enough!!!!!

 

Why even entertain the idea? He's really still being a total jerk!

 

It's always good to see your reaction here 2sunny. I think I've felt the same thing, reading a post or two and wanting to shake the person into some sense. It makes me sit up and look at the big picture, the obvious, the simple facts surrounding the disgrace and devaluation I've suffered and did not deserve. This is good, important. But I am still who I am and the life we are talking about is a very long one mostly lived. I know that I would feel a great weight lifted if I dumped him and went on. I would also feel great sadness for what we still, never had between us. It's that I want. Yes, he has a lot still to prove if we can do it. He doesn't even know it or realize why he did what he did. I have to know - hear from him - that he does realize that and renounces for the right reasons the person he was and the choices that person made.

 

Is he worth it? I don't think anyone is or isn't any more than anyone else. If he wants us to be the best we can be, he'll have to do it. I have time. That's all I'm saying. It's not okay the way it is. But I'm still willing to steer him in the right direction. But not over skype. I realize that's absurd.

 

Okay, thanks guys. It does help.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Older 'n' wiser
clarification

[2sunny]

I see you wanting things to happen to invoke change - and he appears to want things to resume at status quo.

 

Unless he gets serious, intensive professional help - he may not be capable of being honest about answering any of your questions - much less capable of taking action to change the core bing of himself.

 

His moral compass is completely broken - and YOU can't fix it FOR him!

 

He doesn't seem anxious and willing to jump in and find out how broken he is - and what HE needs to DO to change.

 

I can't see how this gives you any hope with him.

[Older 'n' wiser]

I see you wanting things to happen to invoke change - and he appears to want things to resume at status quo.

 

Unless he gets serious, intensive professional help - he may not be capable of being honest about answering any of your questions - much less capable of taking action to change the core bing of himself.

 

His moral compass is completely broken - and YOU can't fix it FOR him!

 

He doesn't seem anxious and willing to jump in and find out how broken he is - and what HE needs to DO to change.

 

I can't see how this gives you any hope with him.

 

Exactly right about 99%:

• True: Without serious intensive professional help, there's no maybe about it - he ISN'T capable of being honest with himself, much less with me.
  
• True: Incapable of taking action to change his core being (is anyone?).
  
• True: He's only less "anxious" to find out how broken he is as he is anxious for me to find out - because he suspects I already know.
  

 

BUT he is willing.

AND he also wants things to change. (He just doesn't what it to involve further shaming on his part.) This doesn't mean it's not worth trying. I have some other things going for me here that have shaken him up recently. At the moment, this is probably as much humbling as a lifelong narcissist can take but it IS the only cure for it. I've been through too much to leave it here. And it really is a very important part of my motivation: I want him to see what he did.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Older 'n' wiser
3 out of 5: guess that's just 60% actually

[jnel921]

Sounds like he had no boundary to his actions, which is tougher to deal with when the other women in your case are too close to home.

 

Trust takes a long time to regain and so does the healing. You need to be together to note if he is truly remorseful and to see first hand if there is a significant change.

 

It sounds like you have spent some time living with others than living on your own. This could have been a factor too.

 

Some people R because they are afraid of the unknown. I have been on both sides. I chose not to R with H #1 and did R with H #2.

 

The difference between them is that my H is truly remorseful and is doing the work.