tokyo Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 Originally posted by Grinning Maniac Maybe if I think harder, I can come up with an answer convincing enough to start my own religion, so people can join and eventually shun those who care for them for not believing in what I say. I think it's a great plan, don't you? Boy, now you have discovered *my* cunning plan. My intention always was to found a sect, become their leader and earn money with people´s stupidity. No kidding.
Author Grinning Maniac Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 See...I don't necessarily think it's true that you have to agree with someone religious beliefs in order to have a relationship with them. Maybe she does. Still hoping we can work it out. I certainly don't mind the beliefs she has. I welcome them. Well, maybe aside from the "dont mix with the unbelievers" part.
Hypothesis 101 Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 My name thats not important. To each person you are entitled to believe & Ass-u-me! what you wish. The Bible - Basic. Instruction. before. leaving. earth. B.I.B.L.E. is over 2000 yrs old, NOT written by the unknowning but by the knowing, proven fact it has NOT changed in 2000-yrs. The ROAD to "HELL" is paved with fools and good intentions. So on your way to "HELL" its a one way trip. I choose to by recycled just as many time as I can. "GOD" is an awesome "GOD"
Tracy Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 I think it's sad that you have such hostility towards her response. I wonder if she was so hostile in communicating it to you.... Maybe it's just as simple as, this is a big enough difference in POV's that it's a deal breaker for her. No different than if the topic of sending your kids to private school was a big issue for her. She didn't believe in it, you did, and so she thought you weren't the one for her. I am a Christian, I believe in God, and most of the things you have refuted. I don't think either one of us is "right" or "wrong" for our beliefs. I also think any other true Christian feels the same way. There are people with false beliefs and personas that can give Christians a bad rap, just like anything else. And, there are Christians who aren't perfect, and may have errors in judgement, just like everyone else. However, this isn't God's beliefs or persona's, and it's too bad that He gets the bad rap because of it. I don't think this girl is wrong for feeling that her beliefs on this issue is strong enough that she wants someone who is compatible in the same sense. As far as a Christian marrying a non-Christian, even the bible doesn't condemn that. The bible encourages a "believer" to marry another "believer" because it will benefit the relationship, ie. they will be more compatible and will be able to grow together spiritually. Not that it isn't good to have some differences in opinion, and challenge each other intellectually, but with the area of spirituality, it is more beneficial to share the same views in a intimate relationship. I don't think it's fair that you despise this girl or God for trying to make a decision on what she wants or does not want in a relationship....that's her choice. Sounds like she was honest with you about something that was important to her.
moimeme Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 GM, it's not that you're not a worthy person. It's that there's a kind of kinship one feels with someone who shares one's values and beliefs. It's like when you are out of town and you find someone from your city or old high school - there's that link you have; a bond you feel. The more values and ideals two people share, the more kinship they feel. Some people need that and some don't. I prefer it. This lady obviously does, too. When you share values and ideals, you can communicate freely and openly with each other, and that is a great feeling. This weekend, I was in a conversation with some people. They got on to the topic of gay marriage and my pal said she was against it and started going on about how it wasn't 'right'. I was disappointed. We'll not ever be real close friends because I could never be totally honest with her about, for instance, my ex-husband, because she will think less of me. That's not good for any relationship. The problem with an awful lot of atheists is that they have zero respect for theists. These comments amply demonstrate that: I somehow associate it with immaturity, a projection of the inner child´s fears and anxities about life. Unless you become religious, of course, and swallow all the little cooky-cutter answers to life's unanswerable questions My intention always was to found a sect, become their leader and earn money with people´s stupidity Bigotry, Ignorance and Blatant Lies Exposed? Too many atheists think theists are idiots. Kooky and Papillon are bonding over that very value. But it's not possible for two people to have a relationship if one thinks the other is an idiot because of his or her beliefs. That girl knows that and isn't willing to be ridiculed for what she thinks. I do have some beliefs/ideas concerning religion but they're uniquely my own and take a while to explain, and considering I don't feel like getting into a long explaination every time someone asks "what religion are you?" I just say "agnostic" since it's the closest I can come to it in a short answer. I have ideas about "God" and such matters, cobbled together from many different sources, but I don't know I'm right and can't prove it...but it's what I think. I like to stay flexible. *sigh* Even that's a short answer. I don't know, maybe I should've told her in the beginning and it would've made a difference. Maybe I still should. She said she wanted to talk about it more next time she saw me. We always kept it intelligent and respectful Well, good for you and yes, you should have discussed it with her. She might be much more willing to take you on if she knows you don't actively ridicule her for believing in God.
tokyo Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 But it's not possible for two people to have a relationship if one thinks the other is an idiot because of his or her beliefs. That girl knows that and isn't willing to be ridiculed for what she thinks. Excuse me, Moimeme, what girl are you referring to then? Grinning Maniacs girl or not?
Author Grinning Maniac Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 Originally posted by Tracy I think it's sad that you have such hostility towards her response. I wonder if she was so hostile in communicating it to you.... Maybe it's just as simple as, this is a big enough difference in POV's that it's a deal breaker for her. No different than if the topic of sending your kids to private school was a big issue for her. She didn't believe in it, you did, and so she thought you weren't the one for her. I am a Christian, I believe in God, and most of the things you have refuted. I don't think either one of us is "right" or "wrong" for our beliefs. I also think any other true Christian feels the same way. There are people with false beliefs and personas that can give Christians a bad rap, just like anything else. And, there are Christians who aren't perfect, and may have errors in judgement, just like everyone else. However, this isn't God's beliefs or persona's, and it's too bad that He gets the bad rap because of it. I don't think this girl is wrong for feeling that her beliefs on this issue is strong enough that she wants someone who is compatible in the same sense. As far as a Christian marrying a non-Christian, even the bible doesn't condemn that. The bible encourages a "believer" to marry another "believer" because it will benefit the relationship, ie. they will be more compatible and will be able to grow together spiritually. Not that it isn't good to have some differences in opinion, and challenge each other intellectually, but with the area of spirituality, it is more beneficial to share the same views in a intimate relationship. I don't think it's fair that you despise this girl or God for trying to make a decision on what she wants or does not want in a relationship....that's her choice. Sounds like she was honest with you about something that was important to her. This whole thing certainly doesn't seem fair to me. It is her choice, most certainly, but it's one I think I had the right to know about going in. Bottom line, deciding someone unworthy of your affections because they don't believe in the same superstitions you do is crap. Try and justify it all you want. It may be important to some people...but I really question their rationality at that point. If you like someone, they like you, you enjoy spending time together, and they respect and welcome the fact that you believe what you do...what's the harm? Why limit yourself?
Author Grinning Maniac Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 *sees how the thread is evolving* Er...this thread is about to lose cabin pressure. Let's just call it even. For those interested, I'll post again after she and I talk. Same bat-time, same bat-channel. Never know, maybe explaining myself a bit more will make a difference to her. I didn't bother trying before because I didn't think it mattered to her. Now I see it does. I'm not going to change what I believe for this girl, but I like her enough to at least put all my cards on the table. Thanks everyone for posting, and for the advice. Ta. -GM
moimeme Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 Excuse me, Moimeme, what girl are you referring to then? Grinning Maniacs girl or not? She does not know that he is agnostic. She worries that he is the 'all believers are morons' type of atheist. Which is why I told him he should have told her his beliefs. Bottom line, deciding someone unworthy of your affections because they don't believe in the same superstitions you do is crap. Try and justify it all you want. It may be important to some people...but I really question their rationality at that point. If you like someone, they like you, you enjoy spending time together, and they respect and welcome the fact that you believe what you do...what's the harm? Why limit yourself? I've explained it above. But your attitude is not one of trying to understand her point of view; only to react with anger and hostility to it. Fine. Be that way. But you'll be that much less likely to win her over if you're unwilling to try to see it from her side. but I like her enough to at least put all my cards on the table Now that's more like it. And listen to her side, while you're at it. You may come out ahead after all.
Author Grinning Maniac Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 Moi, she thinks I'm just plain agnostic. That's all I ever told her. Didn't feel like spending time explaining it. Maybe she does think that I am the type that thinks her religion is stupid. I don't know. Granted, I think it can be stupid when it's misused(coughtelevangelismcoughcough), but the overall idea is fine. *shrug* In any case, I don't really know why I use the term "agnostic". It's not even too accurate. I just wish there was a word in the English language for exactly what the hell I am
HokeyReligions Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 I do not believe in any gods. My husband is a christian. I think his belief is sweet and almost quirky --- the same way I think of people who honestly don't want to 'tempt fate' by walking under a ladder! That in no way, shape, or form, means that I think he is less intelligent that anyone else, myself included. Intellect and Intelligence have nothing to do with religous belief. Belief and worship is only one part of a life afterall. A good christian is supposed to put God first. They should be able to do that without passing judgement on others. If they can't, then the concern is with the person and how they structure their belief, not with the belief itself. For some people it IS a deal-breaker if the couple do not believe and worship in the same way. Couples like to share the things that are most important in their lives. To others it is not a big deal. I don't go to church with my husband, but I am not jealous of his belief in God. I accept that as part of him. Just as he accepts that God is not part of me. I have a friend who will not date a non-catholic girl. It's that important to him. He will be friends with anyone, but he only dates catholic girls. Perhaps, GM, your girl is more confused about her own priorities and how a non-believe can fit into her life right now. Discuss it with her. She might come to a point where she can separate you and God and find a way that you can all be part of her life, even if you don't share her worship practices or beliefs. Perhaps you can compromise with things like going to Christmas Pagents at her church, or having a nativity in your decorations, or an angel on the tree? (those are things that I do - not to worship, but to share with my husband something that is important to him).
Tracy Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 Hokey.....Bingo! Very well said. And, just in the nick o' time. Thought I was going to witness my first LS showdown
Mr Spock Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 Honestly, it sounds like a BS excuse GrinningManiac. Especially since you've only been dating a short time. I would imagine she's got something else in the wings, or she didn't feel the connection the same way you did, and used the "Don't think there is a God get out of jail free" card, much like one could pull the "Against Abortion" card or the "you like chevys, I like ford" card. Unless she's frothing at the mouth thumping a bible on your chest I'd be very suspicious of your religious convictions being the sole issue.
Author Grinning Maniac Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 Me wasting time wondering if she's lying about the reason isn't going to solve anything anyway, so why worry about it? Besides, she's always struck me as a very frank and honest sort of girl. So I really have no reason to disbelieve her.
Tracy Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 Unless she's frothing at the mouth thumping a bible on your chest I'd be very suspicious of your religious convictions being the sole issue. I don't know... I am not a frother or bible thumper by any means. But, it has been a deal breaker for me. My decision DID include other things about the guy that I didn't like. But, his spiritual beliefs was a great part of it.
Scangie Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 Hey GM... sorry about your situation. You are obviously very hurt by what happened, and that really sucks! I do want to ask a question, though -- you said in an earlier post that you wish she had been up front with you about her feelings about dating someone with different beliefs. Did you talk about those beliefs early on? The reason I'm asking -- I think it would be uncomfortable to quiz a partner in the early stages of dating about every issue that could possibly be a deal-breaker down the road (politics, religion, family, etc). For example, I really want to start a family someday, but I'm not going to ask a guy if he wants to have kids early on in the dating process -- I know that would scare him away! But if as I was getting to know him, I found out he didn't want kids, then I'd break it off, even if we got along great & had great chemistry, because we disagree on an issue that affects us both and is very important to me. It might not affect our interactions right now, but I know it will be big problems down the road. It could be that this girl felt weird talking about religion early on, but it was still a very important, potentially deal-breaking issue to her. If she did talk about it and say it was no big deal, and then she changed her mind, I'm inclined to agree with those who say she was looking for a convienent excuse to end the relationship. I know you feel hurt by this, but my guess is she is feeling bad, too. I respect her for sticking with her beliefs enough to make a tough decision, and if you demonstrate that you respect her as well (I'm assuming that you aren't saying the same sorts of things to her as you have been when you are venting here), then maybe she'll have a change of heart.
Author Grinning Maniac Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 Originally posted by Scangie Hey GM... sorry about your situation. You are obviously very hurt by what happened, and that really sucks! I do want to ask a question, though -- you said in an earlier post that you wish she had been up front with you about her feelings about dating someone with different beliefs. Did you talk about those beliefs early on? The reason I'm asking -- I think it would be uncomfortable to quiz a partner in the early stages of dating about every issue that could possibly be a deal-breaker down the road (politics, religion, family, etc). For example, I really want to start a family someday, but I'm not going to ask a guy if he wants to have kids early on in the dating process -- I know that would scare him away! But if as I was getting to know him, I found out he didn't want kids, then I'd break it off, even if we got along great & had great chemistry, because we disagree on an issue that affects us both and is very important to me. It might not affect our interactions right now, but I know it will be big problems down the road. It could be that this girl felt weird talking about religion early on, but it was still a very important, potentially deal-breaking issue to her. If she did talk about it and say it was no big deal, and then she changed her mind, I'm inclined to agree with those who say she was looking for a convienent excuse to end the relationship. I know you feel hurt by this, but my guess is she is feeling bad, too. I respect her for sticking with her beliefs enough to make a tough decision, and if you demonstrate that you respect her as well (I'm assuming that you aren't saying the same sorts of things to her as you have been when you are venting here), then maybe she'll have a change of heart. No, I'm not venting on her at all. Give me a little credit. We never talked about religion and what it meant to her before. I knew she believed in God and went to church, but that's not saying much. A lot of people do that. I never had a clue that me not feeling exactly the same about it was such a problem. She never gave me one either.
savethedrama4allama Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 Originally posted by Papillon "happy clappy jeezus kee-rhist singalong" This got me rolling, Papillon. I'm agnostic to the core. I'm dating a CREATIONIST. Yeah, it has its challenges. I'm open to his views, he is open to mine. If she isn't willing to overlook the religious differences between you grinning maniac, then she isn't worth it. Unfortunately this is beyond your control...I know it sucks. Respectfully yours, Savethedrama4yrmama
CaterpillarGirl Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 Dating between believers and non-believers is like Republicans dating Democrats (or the non-US equivalent, wherever you are). To some, it's not a big deal and maybe they even embrace the differences. Others would prefer to date those whose political convictions align with their own. I don't think either viewpoint should be scorned. At least she is honest and mature enough to realize that this is not something she can get past. I think it is short-sighted to claim that anyone SHOULD be able to concede to your opinion, or SHOULD be able to look beyond this one issue. That choice lies with the individual, and I think we should respect that. Besides, if everyone here on LS agreed that it was silly of her to think this way, or that she should have told you waaay sooner, what good would that do you? Would you show her our opinions and hope she bow to the general consensus? Would you feel justified in your outrage? I'm not flaming you. I'm just curious what you wanted or hoped to get from coming here.
Author Grinning Maniac Posted September 13, 2004 Author Posted September 13, 2004 I wanted or hoped to get absolutely nothing. I just didn't see much point in posting this update in my original thread since it was sinking to the bottom of the page. This was a pretty important turn of events in my opinion, so I thought it was worthy of being posted here. I wasn't interested in who was going to take my side. I don't really give a damn. Christianity is a pretty big religion in the US. So, my topic and point of view probably isn't too welcome. But I don't care. This is how I feel, and I chose this place to vent. If anything, all I really wanted was some advice. This isn't a common situation for me. Good enough for you?
Mr Spock Posted September 13, 2004 Posted September 13, 2004 Bottom line-Rejections sucks, for WHATEVER reason.
moimeme Posted September 14, 2004 Posted September 14, 2004 Maybe she does think that I am the type that thinks her religion is stupid. I don't know. Granted, I think it can be stupid when it's misused(coughtelevangelismcoughcough), but the overall idea is fine. *shrug* In any case, I don't really know why I use the term "agnostic". It's not even too accurate. I just wish there was a word in the English language for exactly what the hell I am Agnostic is actually a pretty good one; it's just that a lot of people think agnostics are atheists.
Author Grinning Maniac Posted September 14, 2004 Author Posted September 14, 2004 Is it? I didn't know that counted if you think there is some sort of higher being out there but don't think it's exactly the way the Bible describes it. As I said, I have my own ideas on religion. But I'm also open to the fact that I could easily be wrong.
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