Drseussgrrl Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Why do you NEED to be married? Is it for the fairy tale wedding that you can invite all your friends to and make them jealous? Is it to be able to wear a ring on your left hand/ring finger? If you love somebody and it's working, why do you feel the need for society to recognize your relationship? Marriage protects children. And no I don't want a huge wedding - waste of time and money. Google the statistics of children raised by single parents.
Els Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Yeah, the ones who aren't married dropped a class when their wife took half. But seriously, it has nothing to do with class. And where did I say a thing of the past? I said a losing proposition. There's a difference. I know plenty of successful men that aren't married. I know plenty of guys who aren't in the upper class who are. Marriage as a whole, is a tradition that historically has served women more than man. Now as societal roles change, this is becoming less true. But I really don't want to get into that as it's a whole other matter entirely. You're entitled to your views, but the topic of this thread is 'living together before marriage', not 'living together without ever marrying'. I'm not sure how your perceived futility of marriage fits into this thread. Maybe start your own? 2
candie13 Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Here's a study for you: on married men and happiness Does marriage really make people happier? Study finds few well-being advantages to marriage over cohabitation on married men and living longer - from Harvard Health Marriage and Men's Health - Harvard Health Publications 1
blindotter Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 That's interesting... all of the very successful men I know are married... including the ones in my family. When I look around, it is only the under-class who think marriage is a thing of the past. 'Renting' is something lower class men do to lower class women who let them. At least in the US. That's very "victim mentality". People choose how they live. Some people believe in the institution of marriage, other people think it's a crock. Men AND women, alike. Only victims think that things are done to them, and that they have no agency in their fate. 1
carhill Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 I won't live together before marriage simply because where I live contains my life's work and only a spouse gets to share that space and the benefits of the decades of who I was before meeting them. I managed to save some of it from one exW so am a lot smarter about such aspects now, including how to approach marriage. No way would I live with someone, nor would let someone live with me. I like my tenants to pay, and in a timely fashion. Most women my age and in my demographic have their own domiciles and I encourage their independence. YMMV. 3
blindotter Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 On topic, I wouldn't consider a long term commitment to anyone that I had not lived with first. I did that once, and we started living together after we got engaged, and it was a rude awakening for me and I broke off the engagement and handed him his ring back after 2 months of living together post-engagement. That was a big ugly mess. 2
Drseussgrrl Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 I'll agree with that. But why then do women initiate 70% of divorces? WONT THEY THINK OF THE CHILDREN? And children are supported regardless of the marital breakdown. Child support is court ordered and cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. It's also one of the few civil fines that you can be incarcerated for failing to pay. I don't really have any sympathy for the guys failing to pay child support. My own father left my mom for some British floozie. Then balked at the idea of paying child support for the two kids he left behind. My mom never took him to court, though. Eventually they came to an agreement that was, luckily for him, less than the court would have ordered. As for why women initiate divorce - well that's a whole other topic that could be debated all day.
blindotter Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Also, marriage does not protect children. Reasonable adults who can work out amicable custody arrangements and rise above sour grapes protect children. I live with a teenager whose mother ran off and refuses to pay child support.
Drseussgrrl Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 This is all I was trying to say. If you don't live with somebody before marriage, how do you know that the two of you can successfully do it once contractually bound to one another. And I understand marriage is a risk regardless and I'm not talking about living with some "fling". But if you're dating someone and the both of you see it as having marriage potential, some of you seriously wouldn't consider living together beforehand? Not me. Turned out horribly for me.
Els Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 On topic, I wouldn't consider a long term commitment to anyone that I had not lived with first. I did that once, and we started living together after we got engaged, and it was a rude awakening for me and I broke off the engagement and handed him his ring back after 2 months of living together post-engagement. That was a big ugly mess. The same goes for me. I would rather risk a delayed M than a divorce, personally. Regardless of stats about cohabitation and divorce (which I believe are skewed for several reasons), I personally feel that I need to ascertain compatibility in cohabitation over the long term before making a lifetime commitment. That being said, I would not cohabitate with a man who has Mr. Soul's attitude about marriage, or in general the attitude that marriage was unnecessary or futile. I doubt I would even be with such a man long enough to consider cohabitating. I think xxoo is right in that people should at least have an inkling that they want to spend their life with a person, by a certain point in the R, preferably before they live together. A curious question to those who don't wish to 'waste time' cohabitating (as opposed to just feeling that it's unnecessary or against their principles): If you trust that your partner has been forthcoming about all his foibles and issues without needing to live with him to find out more about him; why can you not trust that same man to live up to his words about desiring marriage in the future? Assuming that you have both talked about it and are in the same boat.
Els Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Whoa. I wanted to marry my ex and I got burned. Did it suck? Yes. Am I glad it was a breakup and not a divorce? Yes. I'm just pointing out the cold hard facts that are on the other side of that coin. It's something that both parties need to consider. I would absolutely get married to the right girl. All I'm saying is that it's not necessary to show that you love somebody. That being said, I don't think you should lead the other person on either. If one of you wants marriage and the other doesn't; that needs to be communicated. I was referring to your comments of: Why do you NEED to be married? Is it for the fairy tale wedding that you can invite all your friends to and make them jealous? Is it to be able to wear a ring on your left hand/ring finger? If you love somebody and it's working, why do you feel the need for society to recognize your relationship? Yeah, the ones who aren't married dropped a class when their wife took half. But seriously, it has nothing to do with class. And where did I say a thing of the past? I said a losing proposition. There's a difference. I know plenty of successful men that aren't married. I know plenty of guys who aren't in the upper class who are. Marriage as a whole, is a tradition that historically has served women more than man. Now as societal roles change, this is becoming less true. But I really don't want to get into that as it's a whole other matter entirely. Hmm... Or men realize that marriage is more and more becoming a losing proposition for them. One day, if your wife gets bored she can file for divorce; take half your assets, the children (if you have any together) which you'll be paying support for and receive alimony. Which is freely modifiable btw. Meaning, you get a promotion or better job, she can drag you back into court and have the judge modify your payments accordingly to match your current salary. On top of that some 70% of divorces are initiated by women. "Renting" as it's described here doesn't sound so bad to us guys. That shows a lot about your views towards M. Which aren't necessarily wrong, but I'd say that women who do desire M should be wary of men with such views towards it. There are other people, men and women, who do believe in cohabitation before M, without espousing such views on M. As long as you're up front about these views, though, I don't see anything wrong with them. Just that I would not want a man with such views, myself. 1
Woggle Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 I see this happen all the time though. I supported my ex through grad school. We lived together for three years before he would even consider getting married. Cue in his meeting his current fiancé and boy, he fell so hard he couldn't WAIT to put a ring on it. We've had this debate before here, but I'm still of the opinion that marriage isn't just something you try on for size by living together and - my first clue that my ex wasn't all that into me was that he DID wait so long to propose. I'd never wait beyond a year at my age. He wasted good 4 fertile years of my life. Would you rather it had happened after marriage when you had a kid or two? Be glad it happened at that point.
Woggle Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 I am happily married myself but why are we so down on people who don't want it. Marriage these days is a very shaky and unstable institution in many cases and while I certainly do not believe all women are walkaway wives it is a proven statistic that 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Add family court issues and it is easy to see why some men and women for that matter are hesitant. Those who are or have been married in many cases certainly are not doing anything to make the institution attractive to unmarried people. I do think that if somebody doesn't want marriage though they should be honest from the start. 1
Drseussgrrl Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Would you rather it had happened after marriage when you had a kid or two? Be glad it happened at that point. Everyone says that. It's trite. I can't be "glad" that it happened at all. 1
Woggle Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Everyone says that. It's trite. I can't be "glad" that it happened at all. I understand but it happening now is certainly the lesser of two evils.
jcrew11 Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 I see this happen all the time though. I supported my ex through grad school. We lived together for three years before he would even consider getting married. Cue in his meeting his current fiancé and boy, he fell so hard he couldn't WAIT to put a ring on it. We've had this debate before here, but I'm still of the opinion that marriage isn't just something you try on for size by living together and - my first clue that my ex wasn't all that into me was that he DID wait so long to propose. I'd never wait beyond a year at my age. He wasted good 4 fertile years of my life. I get criticized for saying that women want marriage to have babies, yet this woman says the same thing and gets applause? I was literally telling the truth that there is a biological clock that ends around 35-40; and if a woman wants marriage and babies, then she should give the man a deadline. Otherwise, she needs to find a new man. Sure, marriage and divorce sucks; and single parenting sucks, but there is a time limit for having natural healthy children. I don't label it as Traditional or Liberal or Mysoginist. Its just the truth that for the many women who want marriage - they want to have children as well. I think couples have to be honest and that the Man and the Woman have to be willing to leave the relationship if they disagree on when to have children or get married. Perhaps Liberalized Women and Men think they can have it all on their own Schedule, but that's not true at all.
miss_jaclynrae Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Not me. Turned out horribly for me. Wouldn't that mean it is a good thing you didn't get married first?
Drseussgrrl Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Wouldn't that mean it is a good thing you didn't get married first? I shouldn't have moved in with him, period.
Woggle Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 My ex and I never had kids and she is still planning on trying to get alimony ten years later. If you have no kids with somebody there should be zero obligation. If we really want to strengthen marriage in this society then we need to make it so that people aren't putting themselves at huge risk if it doesn't work out. I get the feeling with some people it is more about the wedding and the ring and starting a family because the clocks ticking rather than truly wanting to share your life with a man or woman you love and those kinds of marriage don't usually work out. 1
miss_jaclynrae Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 I will never agree to marry someone unless we live together first.I refuse to make a life long commitment to someone without first seeing if I could spend day in day out with them. Joining forces financially is another thing I feel must happen before getting married, living with a person shows a whole different side of them that you could be blind to before living together. I just personally want to know my husband inside and out before I make such a commitment. Actions speak louder than words, and a man could say he would be x and x once we moved in, buy once we did, it could easily be far different from how he led on. 2
Woggle Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Also I agree that emotional neglect is a loaded term. The way it is described in this thread of course is grounds for divorce but it can mean a whole lot of things. I know men who don't have a clue what their wives actually want and believe me they try. 1
miss_jaclynrae Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 My ex and I never had kids and she is still planning on trying to get alimony ten years later. If you have no kids with somebody there should be zero obligation. If we really want to strengthen marriage in this society then we need to make it so that people aren't putting themselves at huge risk if it doesn't work out. I get the feeling with some people it is more about the wedding and the ring and starting a family because the clocks ticking rather than truly wanting to share your life with a man or woman you love and those kinds of marriage don't usually work out. My ex husband provided me with alimony and we have no kids. I put my life on hold while waiting on him hand and foot while he was in the military. He knew I sacrificed a lot for him and he felt like the least he could do since his income was 4 times a much as mine (one of the reasons being that he was married) was to Help me out the best he could. I still don't think it was enough but without the help at all I would have been broke and homeless. 2
Woggle Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Okay but why is the one of the most common complaints from married women that their husbands are detached and emotionally drift away over time? Dont tell me they have unrealistically high standards. Sometimes it is "he wont listen to me vent for 2 hrs a day" but often its not. Alot of men are not emotional creatures and dont really place a high value on maintaining emotional intimacy once the honeymoon stage is over. Who knows? Believe me if men knew how to push whatever buttons their wives want pushed they would.
Drseussgrrl Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 All the couples I know who waited to move in together after marriage have been together the longest and are the happiest. My bro and his wife got married young, she was 19, they're still going very strong 10 years later. One of my best friends got married young also, they're still together 14 years later, two kids and she's blissfully happy. Like I said - there is no fail-proof formula when it comes to getting married and avoiding divorce. I just know that for me, I'm not going to entwine my life with a man's unless there is a firm commitment of marriage. We all have our own experiences to draw from and that was mine. Not doing it again.
Woggle Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 My ex husband provided me with alimony and we have no kids. I put my life on hold while waiting on him hand and foot while he was in the military. He knew I sacrificed a lot for him and he felt like the least he could do since his income was 4 times a much as mine (one of the reasons being that he was married) was to Help me out the best he could. I still don't think it was enough but without the help at all I would have been broke and homeless. Well I will be damned if my ex gets a dime from me without a fight after what I went through with her. I think the judge will see through it like she did during our divorce.
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