underwater2010 Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 For anyone out there that has been affected by affairs, wether a BS/WS/OW/OM or any combination of the fore mentioned. Why is it so hard to say no or remove yourself from the situation? Case in point.....I am a BW and here are my experience about saying no or stopping things for proceeding. 1. Feeling the electricity between me and another coworker. I knew it would be a problem and could easily get out of control. So I made sure that we were never alone. 2. Talked a few times with my first love from high school. He wanted to met up for lunch and I stopped all contact at that point. It was idle chatter prior, but I knew I would always have feelings and it would be easy to run if I needed to. 3. Working at the bar and serving a man for about 1 1/2 yrs. I have met his kids and wife a few times. Using facebook he sent a friend request which I accepted and promplty looked for his wife. They are very nice people. A few moments later I started getting message about how he was thinking of me and has had a crush on me. I told him to go to bed, delete the message and that I am not interested. It is not hard to say no. It is not hard to remove yourself from the situation. There are always boundaries that are not meant to be crossed. Contribute freely. 10
TaraMaiden Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 When people don't say 'no', it's because they don't want to. They believe their feelings are stronger than their will-power. We hear it less and less, but it still gets said: "We couldn't help it, it just happened" "We both lost control, and one thing led to another". "We were both a little drunk and had sex." "I didn't want to do it, but I couldn't stop it...." All of the above are simple embellishments of - "I knew I shouldn't but I did it anyway, because I wanted to." People do what works for them at the time. People do something because they gain something from it they don't gain elsewhere. People need enough motivation to be able to say 'No' - and that motivation is not up to their partner to provide. Both members of a relationship are responsible for the state of that relationship. it's an equal task, for both, to keep up their side of the bargain. But that doesn't include being responsible for the other person's actions. Everyone has the power to say 'No'. It's a privilege people should practise more often, if they have an situation which would be validated by that. 7
dichotomy Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 I had a college GF who was crazy about me, and we kept in pleasant contact over the years. She tried (mainly between marriages) to have sex with me When my current wife's emotional affair (and other messes) came to light she was very keen on wanting to talk to me and see me about what was happening. Not only did I pass on several easily arranged out of town meetings with this old college GF that she wanted (I travel a fair amount to her area of the country), I also refused in emails to describe in any notable/disrespectful detail what exactly was going on or wrong in my marriage. I have also been flirted/chatted up by a few women while out of town on business. I was pleasant, maybe even a little flirting back, but could have easily tried to escalate it since they approached me. I have also said no to being on Facebook, because I fear other old GF's Friending me - or it being a way for other inappropriate communications. None of this would ever have been an issue in the past- saying no was easy for me, but recently....harder. 2
Silly_Girl Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 I absolutely don't regret for a moment the relationship I had with a man who was married for the first year of our time together. HOWEVER him being in my life made me acutely aware of those types of situations mentioned in the OP. My boss was pursuing me gently but I kept the boundaries VERY clear, even though it would have been easier to have been more open to his invitations to various industry events etc. Another guy at work couldn't hide his interest but I never took up his lunch offer just because I knew it might indicate more. I was just happy not to even put one fairy-step down a path I knew I did not want. I can understand how others end up in a cheating situation however I (now) know I am strong enough to deal with personal circumstances and won't ever need to participate in two relationships simultaneously. 1
cocorico Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 For anyone out there that has been affected by affairs, wether a BS/WS/OW/OM or any combination of the fore mentioned. Why is it so hard to say no or remove yourself from the situation? . I have absolutely no problem saying no. Women spend their lives turning down men, we get more than enough practice. It really is that easy... If you *want* to. It really is that simple. I propositioned a MM because I wanted to. For no other reason. I know that that is not everyone's situation, I know some OW were pursued, some were deceived, some were vulnerable and felt manipulated. I chose freely. I fancied him and spent time doing the research to eliminate any dealbreakers, and when I found none, I propositioned him. Selfish, sure, but lust and desire are. And in my book, available is as available does - a ring on a finger is not a disqualifier to me, but the word "no" is. If he chose to say yes instead of no, the ring on his finger clearly meant nothing to him, and why should his M mean more to a stranger than to him himself? 1
TaraMaiden Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 I think, in all honesty, this bit of your post should go first..... I said yes because I wanted to. He is everything I want in a partner. I'm not tied to anyone else. He didn't value his marriage enough to say no, so why should I have? Not everyone realizes that they are crossing lines when they do. Most people have never encountered the concept of "emotional affair" until they find themselves here. An 'emotional affair' is just a handy label for 'being attracted to someone outside your marriage', just like 'narcissist' 'sociopath' and 'passive-aggressive' are fancy labels for someone who's basically being a jerk. Having been in the situation myself too, I can tell you precisely when I knew for a fact that I was treading on dangerous ground, when I befriended an ex-colleague. The moment he said "You know, you have beautiful eyes - always smiling!" and I liked it. The 'liking it' bit was as huge a red flag as i could watch flapping. And I'd bet my bottom dollar anyone embarking on an emotional affair can, when pushed, pretty much give the instant they knew they 'liked' it too. I bet you could even, at a push, cast your mind back and pinpoint the moment that first frisson occurred. Additionally, sex confuses things. No. Sex complicates things. There is no confusion about the sexual act. In spite of all the excuses, justifications and reasons put forward by the WS, it's simply a matter of wanting it, getting it, and not giving one second's consideration to the consequences, at all. Until discovery. As far as a BS is concerned, there is no confusion: Their spouse got it somewhere else. That's a complication. The "Why" - is the Confusion... 6
ComingInHot Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 Boundaries, love them and sometimes don't love them. I've had "opportunities" but I figure respect is also a reflection of oneself. Meaning, if I have no respect for someon'es M then I have no respect for myself. If I have no respect say, for someone's Job, privacy, relationship, their Anything then I don't have respect for myself. It makes boundaries easier Not to cross when I look at it that way* 5
TaraMaiden Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 LFH, FWIW, I was merely responding to the content of your post. I was not intending for it to be a criticism. If it came across as that, please know it was not intended to be. at all. Find bellow good examples of what I wrote above... It is simple to understand simple minds... Yeah.... maybe it's a difficulty in Language issues, but to say someone has a 'simple mind' is not considered complimentary.
TaraMaiden Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 No it does confuse things in my situation, but I don't have the "typical" OW scenario so I can't speak for anyone else. For us, it confused and complicated things. His wife isn't confused about the sex from somewhere else part. That's not the part we hide. Precisely (bolded part). Which is why I wanted to confirm my comments were not intended to be taken in the context of criticism. 1
waterwoman Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 One of the reasons I have found it easier to 'forgive' H and have focused as much on our marriage weaknesses as his failings, is that I was nearly where he was 20 yrs ago. Not long married, having been living together for 5 years before that, I guess H and I had really hit the ordinary bit of domesticity - mortgages, bills, money worries (compounded by H being at university so I was the only earner), and the honeymoon was over. I met someone at my new place of work. Butterflies, fireworks, all that guff. Instant mutual attraction. We talked all the time, he honestly seemed like my perfect parter, I beleive I might even have thought that dreadful word 'soulmate' <pause while I bleach my brain> . But all the time, ALL the time, I loved H, I never lost sight of that. Soulmate guy (SMG) was just fantasy. So it was harmless flirtation () We never even kissed, never said I love you. It was an EA I suppose but I didn't know that term at the time. Lovely feeling, massive ego-boost. Every night I went home happily to my real life H and made talked to him, laughed with him, ate with him, made love with him. But I have no doubt it was leeching life from my marriage - how could it now when SMG was in my head. All came to a grinding halt when one day SMG he came to me at my desk, telling me he needed to talk to me urgently. So we went for a walk at lunch time. He told me he had walked out on his gf that morning, wanted me to leave H, accepted that it would take time but wanted to be with me. WTF! This was not what I signed up for. He was offering me his life on a plate and I didn't want it! I ran like smoke and found a new job within a month. Which doesn't neccessarily mean I was so much more moral or worthy than my H with his EA, it meant that the gradual inexorable creep of the relationship was halted by SMG freaking me out by jumping ahead too far. I was forced to realise the true risk of what I was doing. It was easy to say no, because I was shocked in to it. H and OW didn't get that wake-up call until I found out by which time the EA had gone much further and posed a real threat to our marriage and was more painful to give up. 1
waterwoman Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 All that waffle boils down to 'sometimes you don't realise you have anything to say no to unless it's too late' 1
carhill Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 In my case, reflectively, it ('hard to say no') was identified as an aspect of emotional immaturity, as well as, much later, a fundamental fault of caring more, in general, than was healthy. Once identified (MC in my case), those issues were pretty easy to work. Once the pedestals, the result of both those aspects, were torn down, life is pretty enjoyable now.
Blondie1 Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 One of the reasons people get into affair situations is that they have weak or unhealthy boundaries. My marriage started with an A with me the OW and my husband the MM. I am also the BS of the same man. I was late twenties when the affair started and he a few years older. I had walls but no sense of healthy boundaries. Long story, but short version this was the result of overly intrusive/controlling/abusive father. Add to that I was raped in my early 20's and did not get the help I should have to deal with that. Husband was horrifically sexually abused as a pre-adolescent child. His boundaries were even more tattered than mine. Basically, the result is you cross whatever boundary you feel like and you dont stop others from crossing your own boundaries when you should. Or if you do try to stop them you do it in such a dysfunctional way that it is ineffective or creates even more problems. Blondie 4
cocorico Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 No offense meant, right up front. But if the ring clearly meant nothing 2 him and he didn't say no, what does that say about your picker? It says my picker is in tune with my priorities. I wasn't looking for a H. I was looking for a hot lover. I did not consider his longstanding loyalty and commitment to someone else a problem, because I wasn't competing for those. I just wanted his body. Of course, things worked out rather differently, but I haven't been disappointed. I have no problem admitting my propositioning of him was selfish, it was. He ticked all the boxes of what I was looking for, and that was what mattered to me. When I have zeroed in on SGs my modus has been exactly the same. I have not stopped to consider who might also be interested, who might my interest offend. If he and I are both willing, and there are no dealbreakers, that's all I need to know.
Decorative Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 Certainly not mine or my MM. MOST long term affairs start because of unmet needs, lack of intimacy, lack of sex, loss of connection with the spouse. A happy fulfilled married person does not have an affair......and/or fall in love with someone else obviously. Can't speak for short term. Oh my gosh- I really wish this was true. It would be awesome!! Because then that would mean we can control other people. Unfortunately? That's not the case. You should read up on affair psychology. Pittman, Fisher, Vaughn, Gottman, McDonald. You'll learn quite quickly that you can " fill needs" all day long- but you cannot prevent another human being from making the choice to cheat. And a happy marriage is no innoculation against it. As way too many people find out the hard way. The need for external validation isn't something a happy marriage fixes. That's an internal problem. 5
cocorico Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 Same response 2 this one, why didn't YOU value the fact that he made a commitment 2 someone else, even if he doesn't? -ol' 2long I value commitments I make, and take my cue from others as to how much value to assign to commitments they make. My BIL holds dual citizenship, and supports both countries' rugby teams when they play other nations. But if they play each other, he supports whichever one is winning. So I consider him a fair weather supporter and don't attach too much weight to his team support. My SIL, OTOH, supports her team through thick and thin, and so I take her support for her team seriously. Because she does. 1
cocorico Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 I ac2ally hit the like button on this one. Because it underscores what I've felt for a long time - affairs don't happen because of unmet needs in the marriage, they happen because the affairees don't protect their primary relationship from their own susceptibilities 2 temptation. -ol' 2long The bolded part is true - but the reasons for that can be many and varied. Sometimes it relates to internal issues, and other times it relates to R issues, and sometimes a combination of the two.
Just a Guy Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 Quite frankly I would never take a black and white position on this. Humans are bound to err, to be weak, to be in need of a comforting shoulder to cry on. Of course every one has his or her own limits. However if one is in a dire situation and feeling completely at rock bottom then possibly one can fall into the trap of an affair if the circumstances present themselves at the appropriate moment. The best of people can and of course the worst do. However people like cocorico who deliberately set out to trap some one would, in my opinion, fall into another category altogether and it would not be that of a weak human being for sure! 2
krazikat Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 For anyone out there that has been affected by affairs, wether a BS/WS/OW/OM or any combination of the fore mentioned. Why is it so hard to say no or remove yourself from the situation? Case in point.....I am a BW and here are my experience about saying no or stopping things for proceeding. 1. Feeling the electricity between me and another coworker. I knew it would be a problem and could easily get out of control. So I made sure that we were never alone. 2. Talked a few times with my first love from high school. He wanted to met up for lunch and I stopped all contact at that point. It was idle chatter prior, but I knew I would always have feelings and it would be easy to run if I needed to. 3. Working at the bar and serving a man for about 1 1/2 yrs. I have met his kids and wife a few times. Using facebook he sent a friend request which I accepted and promplty looked for his wife. They are very nice people. A few moments later I started getting message about how he was thinking of me and has had a crush on me. I told him to go to bed, delete the message and that I am not interested. It is not hard to say no. It is not hard to remove yourself from the situation. There are always boundaries that are not meant to be crossed. Contribute freely. I am right there with you...and in similiar situations I too have slammed that door shut. 2
sweet_pea Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 I think it just comes down to respect. Certain people, at least when engaging in affairs, just don't respect others. I've been asked out by a few MM and sure, he doesn't respect his marriage at that time, but I respect marriages in general and say no. Just because he doesn't, doesn't mean I can't. Also, like others have said, boundaries/saying "no" aren't there because someone doesn't want to say no. They want what they want, who gives a crap about boundaries! 4
Decorative Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 But I am not going to read the book as I already wear the T shirt and made the film Books. Plural. And that's okay. At least my post counters yours with actual research and information, not anecdotes. The books are always better than the movies. Always. 4
Decorative Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 So do I, so does everyone.Maybe they just did not meet that person..... or never had the opportunity, , they are always at home..... they don't get washed, the list is endless of maybes. Like people who get stuck in a dead end job, hate it, remain unfulfilled and never change it. Same reason. No. Some people understand intrinsically that deceit is never the answer. That's not lack of forward motion. It's respect and honor for themselves, and for others who cross their path. If you truly love an affair partner- you would never want to make them a party to cheapening their morality. That's not love. 4
ComingInHot Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 softly chanting in background, "just say no! just say no! just say no!" Repeat.... * 4
Decorative Posted March 30, 2013 Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) Yeah books are always better than real life experience aren't they? In a situation that is emotional and highly charged- such as infidelity- it sure would seem books that entail research and psychological mechanisms measuring large numbers of experiences would be a much better source than " because I said so". That's why anecdotes do not data make. Looking outside of yourself for happiness is always going to have the same ending, though. Not enough. Edited March 30, 2013 by Decorative 2
cocorico Posted April 2, 2013 Posted April 2, 2013 Im curious cocorico, do you apply this same rule to the husbands of your friends and relatives? Blondie IMO, if something is a rule it applies to everyone. But if you're asking whether or not I'd consider the partners of friends and family off limits: to me, incest is a taboo. And since "friends are the family you choose", friends would be as incestuous to me as family. They're not even "offlimits", since that would imply some kind of "look but don't touch" view. To me, family (and friends) are simply asexual, and yes that includes their partners (and former partners).
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