Education & Training for a "successful" D-day?

[Spark1111]

But not throwing the OW under the bus does not automatically equate to saying 'I pick the OW'. It means being honest about the depth of the relationship and that there are feelings. The BS CAN go find someone else at that point - if they so choose. Many times they don't.

 

Most times the MM, in a million years,never wants the goose to have the freedoms as he, the gander is enjoying.

 

That's why he keeps it secret and lies,lies,lies.

 

If he had ever confided the depth of his feelings, he would have been free to separate and allow me to do the same.

 

Why oh why do so many OW drink the kool aid that BS are harridans who control and manipulate this poor, unhappy MM to stay in his loveless marriage?

[Silly_Girl]

Most times the MM, in a million years,never wants the goose to have the freedoms as he, the gander is enjoying.

 

That's why he keeps it secret and lies,lies,lies.

 

If he had ever confided the depth of his feelings, he would have been free to separate and allow me to do the same.

 

Why oh why do so many OW drink the kool aid that BS are harridans who control and manipulate this poor, unhappy MM to stay in his loveless marriage?

 

Spark, the thread is about a 'successful' d-day. If the MM - and for sure yours did not - is honest and open about how he feels, and what has happened so far, is that not a more successful approach for all than what you describe which is further lying.

 

Not sure where the harridan part fits in if I'm honest.

[Spark1111]

That was my understanding too. Understanding the inauthenticity of that hysterical bonding thing that sometimes happens and not falling into that trap, but remaining out of that fog and in the reality of the situation. Not letting fear make choices for the WS - that the WS is making informed decisions and not reacting in fight/flight simply bc their adrenaline kicks in. I too agree that this would far more authentic than allowing that adrenaline and fear to kick in and making rash decisions without thinking - and since so many reconciliations just don't work, I wonder if that honestly isn't why? That the WS reacts in a panic to what they were trying to avoid in the first place and just goes into fight or flight mode and isn't thinking straight?

 

I mean, when I hear on here about WSs behaviors, I often read how frantic they were, sobbing and such, pretty hysterical. Not many people make good decisions when hysterical - and to accept that any decision that they make in that state is the "real" thing seems a bit far fetched to me?

 

I think if a WS could avoid that hysteria, remain in their calm mind and make informed decisions instead of just reacting to panic - you would probably get a lot more authenticity from them. I think that this would be beneficial to all involved, and especially the BS as they wouldn't have to attempt reconciliation only to find out later that the affair was still going, and that the WS wasn't sincere in their hysterical outbursts - it seems it would save all a lot of confusion, heartache, and time.

 

Idk....I've known the man most of my married life and there WAS NOTHING inauthentic about his desire to ravish me sexually. He was losing me.

 

And who said we would want to reconcile with some sobbing, hysterical, depressed and wanting NOW to reconcile?

 

I was way to angry to care what he wanted after DDay.

 

In fact, after I threw him out, he had all the time in the world to calm down as I would later find out he moved in with her for awhile.

 

I think it lasted three weeks before he moved into a hotel and at times, his sister's.

[HopingAgain]

That was my understanding too. Understanding the inauthenticity of that hysterical bonding thing that sometimes happens and not falling into that trap, but remaining out of that fog and in the reality of the situation. Not letting fear make choices for the WS - that the WS is making informed decisions and not reacting in fight/flight simply bc their adrenaline kicks in. I too agree that this would far more authentic than allowing that adrenaline and fear to kick in and making rash decisions without thinking - and since so many reconciliations just don't work, I wonder if that honestly isn't why? That the WS reacts in a panic to what they were trying to avoid in the first place and just goes into fight or flight mode and isn't thinking straight?

 

I mean, when I hear on here about WSs behaviors, I often read how frantic they were, sobbing and such, pretty hysterical. Not many people make good decisions when hysterical - and to accept that any decision that they make in that state is the "real" thing seems a bit far fetched to me?

 

I think if a WS could avoid that hysteria, remain in their calm mind and make informed decisions instead of just reacting to panic - you would probably get a lot more authenticity from them. I think that this would be beneficial to all involved, and especially the BS as they wouldn't have to attempt reconciliation only to find out later that the affair was still going, and that the WS wasn't sincere in their hysterical outbursts - it seems it would save all a lot of confusion, heartache, and time.

 

If and when a Dday comes that is not pre planned by a WS, the natural reaction is to panic, and or feel a great deal of fear, just as anyone usuallu responds to any crisis.

 

That said, it takes time for the absolute reality to set in for both BS and WS during reconciliation. The feelings of love during hysterical bonding aren't whats inauthentic, it s primal, but does come from a real need from both parties to heal some of the immediate damage. I think most MM who intend on leaving and later go on to actually do it, know this well before Dday even happens. Those are likely the ones that arent going to be doing a lot of begging or crying.

[Silly_Girl]

Why not just say I don't want you. And move on with the OW instead of you and OW making your life plans to move along mentally without giving the BS a chance. I don't know what many do. I can only go on what my experiences are and they are the ones who put a foot up the azz of the spouse to and did move on. Feel all you want after you say...I am going to feel something else with someone else.

 

If the truth is: "BS, I don't want to be with you", THAT is what should be said.

 

If the truth is: "I have no clue, I feel torn" (which must sometimes be the case because that's how these sets of circumstances come about) then whether you approve or not, that's what should be said. Because that's the truth of the situation at the point.

 

Not sure why a BS would want to force a false outcome which is what would happen if the WS was not being totally honest.

 

If the BS doesn't like the cold facts then he/she has every right to walk, or stay, as they see fit.

[eleanorrigby]

I don't see how you can train for the D-Day Olympics.

 

And how can anyone advise the WS towards a successful d-day when he/she is the only one who knows in his/her heart what successful means to him/her?

[ComingInHot]

AR wrote, " involved, and especially the BS as they wouldn't have to attempt reconciliation only to find out later that the affair was still going, and that the WS wasn't sincere in their hysterical outbursts - it seems it would save all a lot of confusion, heartache, and time."

 

Okay, this is Another thing that completely creeps me out... so WS "panics". Cries Forgive me, I'm sorry, please please, second chance. Screams horrible, ugly things about OW. In your scenario WS Doesn't mean it and calls/hooks back up w/OW but in even deeper secret becauuuuuuuuuse.... why??

 

Why would an AP go back into the A when MM/MW didn't Leave for them on D-day.

 

I mean w/all the "hysteical lying & bonding" w/the BS & bus rolling over the OW, who is willing to share that juice cup (confirming from hysterical bonding) that juices indeed are being shared??

 

 

I just think ewwww. Maybe that's why getting busted a second time the BS D's the cheating bas*hard.. ohOH maybe THAT'S why the OW goes back?! Because she knows or hopes the W will find it a second time and wahlah!

 

But that's for another thread... geez, I've been going off on my own little adventures today*

[HopingAgain]

If the truth is: "BS, I don't want to be with you", THAT is what should be said.

 

If the truth is: "I have no clue, I feel torn" (which must sometimes be the case because that's how these sets of circumstances come about) then whether you approve or not, that's what should be said. Because that's the truth of the situation at the point.

 

Not sure why a BS would want to force a false outcome which is what would happen if the WS was not being totally honest.

 

If the BS doesn't like the cold facts then he/she has every right to walk, or stay, as they see fit.

 

I don't think ANY BS wants to force a false outcome. More likely is she put her cards on the line and tells MM to take it or leave it. If the MM decides he wants to stay, thats because he really wants to. A grown man cant be forced to do anything, .

[BrokenPrincess]

Okay, so I just read where an OW wrote (obviously "wrote" because I "read" it der*) she was educating her MM on the dynamics of an A and preparing him for a d-day so he wouldn't throw her under that d*mn bus we all hate, to be honest w/his W and tell her he loves OW.

 

Is it 'genius' on the OW's part to train theMM for things to work out in her favor, or like a councilor who is completely biased in their method of treatment so the attendee will end up trained to think like them once out in society?

 

I started reading the responses then had to go back & re-read the OP.

 

This still makes no sense to me. If a MM is so easily "trained" to use a DDay to get out of his M, why wouldn't the MM just tell his W now and avoid putting her the extra pain of DDay??

 

I didn't read the original OW thread that sparked this, but it sounds to me like OW was doing DDay/A coaching and foggy MM just played along. Would be hard to tell if it was effective until DDay actually happened.

[Spark1111]

Spark, the thread is about a 'successful' d-day. If the MM - and for sure yours did not - is honest and open about how he feels, and what has happened so far, is that not a more successful approach for all than what you describe which is further lying.

 

Not sure where the harridan part fits in if I'm honest.

 

I am such a proponent of honesty, for the life of me, why oh why did it take two years for a DDay?????

 

How much cajoling, pleading, therapy, soul-bearing conversations must his OW had with him and STILL he got caught and never confessed.

 

Why wasn't I told at the first flirt, date, kiss, email, text, sext, full-blown relationship?

 

because he didn't want to give me up. If you are talking about that rare exit affair, then I cannot compare the other 95 percent who want, no beg, to reconcile with their wife.

 

I have no control over what he says, what he chooses to lie about or keep secret and who he chooses to be with.

 

I wouldn't even want to try to have a relationship with a man I felt I had to manipulate to stay with me ever.

[HopingAgain]

These are the types of discussions that make me wonder if some OW are satisfied with getting MM by default? It just seems like a lot of strategizing to get him away from the wife for good? If MM really loves the OW and wants to be with her...he will leave, with no manipulation neccessary. It really is that simple.

[Silly_Girl]

If the MM decides he wants to stay, thats because he really wants to.

 

I don't think that's always how it happens.

 

A grown man cant be forced to do anything, .

 

Not forced, no.

[Act Two]

 

If the truth is: "I have no clue, I feel torn" (which must sometimes be the case because that's how these sets of circumstances come about) then whether you approve or not, that's what should be said. Because that's the truth of the situation at the point.

 

Not sure why a BS would want to force a false outcome which is what would happen if the WS was not being totally honest.

 

 

If perpetuating a state of "I have no clue, I feel torn" is one of the possible "successful outcomes," then everyone loses.

 

The only way the D-Day can be a possible success is that there is a definitive hop off the fence. Either the WS commits to the marriage and the BS is willing to try to reconcile, or leaves the marriage.

 

The only way the marriage can be saved is for the WS to experience cold, hard reality, and fast following D-Day. This did not happen for me and I lingered on the fence.

 

I don't really understand how or why a WS should be "coached." If the outcome is supposed to be for them to leave and be with OM/OW, then I think he/she is smart enough to figure out how to file for divorce. If it's to keep the affair going, then everyone, including the WS loses.

[Spark1111]

If the truth is: "BS, I don't want to be with you", THAT is what should be said.

 

If the truth is: "I have no clue, I feel torn" (which must sometimes be the case because that's how these sets of circumstances come about) then whether you approve or not, that's what should be said. Because that's the truth of the situation at the point.

 

Not sure why a BS would want to force a false outcome which is what would happen if the WS was not being totally honest.

 

If the BS doesn't like the cold facts then he/she has every right to walk, or stay, as they see fit.

 

I would have KILLED for the cold hard facts.

 

But tell me this, how do you expect a confused torn MM having a secret affair and lies and deceives his spouse for his own emotional and physical gain to know what honest even is, let alone confess his true feelings about his OW?

 

Why would he choose to do so now when he has betrayed his spouse, when he did not have the courage to do so BEFORE the affair?

 

Rarely to NEVER happens, IMO.

[Silly_Girl]

 

I wouldn't even want to try to have a relationship with a man I felt I had to manipulate to stay with me ever.

 

Me either.

[ComingInHot]

LFH,

If I remember correctly , I was thrown by the comment from a poster in another thread that stated she informed her MM of the dynamics in an A and what to do in order to have a successful D-day.

 

So, I asked why, and how, and all that, trying to understand who would educate their MM or WS because to me as a BS, that seemed almost a malicious act against the BS by an AP.

But I think I got some Other explanations that were a-lot less "horrible" than what I had pictured in my head.

 

And then there was so pot stirring*

And then it was better & we had more discussion*

Then I think the direction changed a bit*

I think I might have helped in that honestly*

 

So, ya here we are lol**

[Silly_Girl]

I would have KILLED for the cold hard facts.

 

But tell me this, how do you expect a confused torn MM having a secret affair and lies and deceives his spouse for his own emotional and physical gain to know what honest even is, let alone confess his true feelings about his OW?

 

Why would he choose to do so now when he has betrayed his spouse, when he did not have the courage to do so BEFORE the affair?

 

Rarely to NEVER happens, IMO.

 

Begs the question why anyone would reconcile with the WS then.

[MissBee]

I see that we are probably posting at cross purposes then. Because I thought the 'education' was so that the WS did NOT simply spout what they thought their BS wanted to hear and did not simply pretend to drop the OW only to come back to her later. Which is all about authenticity and NOT deceit.

 

Where is the additional deceit of which you speak?

 

You weren't the one who made the claim I'm responding to...so I'm uncertain about what you're talking about.

 

I'm responding to the claim which sparked this thread, which was that OW should not be surprised a MM lies about her on dday and if they had read up on EMRs, they would know not to take his lies personally, he would know not to bond hysterically with his wife, and all that will work to the end of continuing being in a secret A post-dday. That's what I'm responding to.

 

So yes, we're talking about 2 different things. But if your idea is of an education that doesn't allow him to pretend to reconcile while going back to the OW or just saying a bunch of muck the BS wants to hear, then I am in agreement with you on that as useful, but what O was responding to and thinking of was the former situation I mentioned, which is completely different and which I can't agree with.

[Furious]

How odd that some OW support and enable dishonesty during the affair but then on D-day advocate "honesty" and "authenticity". Completely hypocritical to the then label this as educating the WS.

 

I also find it odd that some OW paint a picture of a dead marriage without emotional and sexual connection and then on d-day are in fear of the WS reconnecting sexually and emotionally with their spouse and labelling it a trap.

 

I have never been or will ever be this desperate for any man.

[Mr. Lucky]

So... the affair ends. The married person has been inclined, as a result of it, to think hard and serious about such things as:

 

What they want from life

What they want from their relationship

What caused things to go wrong in the marriage

Why they chose to cheat

How best to proceed

 

 

So mock all you like but it's potentially a more useful exercise than doing what's always been done.

While the married person is pondering those things, what does his BS think about ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[Spark1111]

Begs the question why anyone would reconcile with the WS then.

 

begs the question why an Ow would want a lying man to even begin with, let alone train him how to prepare and train to finally be honest in ending his marriage and to avoid that hysterical bonding which is inauthentic and out of fear.....

 

yeah, right.

[Spark1111]

While the married person is pondering those things, what does his BS think about ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

that they are decently, may e even happily married to a lying, cheating, cowardly man who is trying to work out his relational dilemmas with his OW.

 

Poor baby.

[MissBee]

That was my understanding too. Understanding the inauthenticity of that hysterical bonding thing that sometimes happens and not falling into that trap, but remaining out of that fog and in the reality of the situation. Not letting fear make choices for the WS - that the WS is making informed decisions and not reacting in fight/flight simply bc their adrenaline kicks in. I too agree that this would far more authentic than allowing that adrenaline and fear to kick in and making rash decisions without thinking - and since so many reconciliations just don't work, I wonder if that honestly isn't why? That the WS reacts in a panic to what they were trying to avoid in the first place and just goes into fight or flight mode and isn't thinking straight?

 

I mean, when I hear on here about WSs behaviors, I often read how frantic they were, sobbing and such, pretty hysterical. Not many people make good decisions when hysterical - and to accept that any decision that they make in that state is the "real" thing seems a bit far fetched to me?

I think if a WS could avoid that hysteria, remain in their calm mind and make informed decisions instead of just reacting to panic - you would probably get a lot more authenticity from them. I think that this would be beneficial to all involved, and especially the BS as they wouldn't have to attempt reconciliation only to find out later that the affair was still going, and that the WS wasn't sincere in their hysterical outbursts - it seems it would save all a lot of confusion, heartache, and time.

 

I think if they could do all that there probably would be no A and no dday to contend with. The dday would be them calmly walking up to their spouse rationally and "informed" and saying what's what. But generally ddays catch people with their pants down...hence the panic. No handbook really seems to help with that surprise dday. Unless one really "practices" how to be unsurprised come dday...which seems unrealistic. It seems as though if a WS was so rational and informed, they would have, on their own, made a decision BEFORE dday forced them to react. Most usually are caught off guard and scattering like roaches when you turn the lights on....that is what makes the difference.

 

 

Inauthenticity doesn't start on dday...it just comes to light on dday. One was being inauthentic BEFORE the dday...hence there is even a "discovery day" to begin with. Which is why I said, it is a waste to educate one's self on how to react to a dday, but rather, one should spend that time educating one's self on being authentic, finding the gumption, and overcoming one's fears BEFORE then, so one can avoid the rigmarole of As and ddays and can of one's own choice (and not by a discovery brought up on you by someone else) choose what to do with one's life.

[Silly_Girl]

How odd that some OW support and enable dishonesty during the affair but then on D-day advocate "honesty" and "authenticity". Completely hypocritical to the then label this as educating the WS.

 

I nagged incessantly for honesty, I was a crap OW and can't believe he didn't just dump me on that basis.

 

I also find it odd that some OW paint a picture of a dead marriage without emotional and sexual connection and then on d-day are in fear of the WS reconnecting sexually and emotionally with their spouse and labelling it a trap.

 

The OWs who paint a picture of a dead marriage with no sex or romantic feelings AREN'T worried about hysterical bonding, because it's just not on the table.

[Silly_Girl]

You weren't the one who made the claim I'm responding to...so I'm uncertain about what you're talking about.

 

I'm responding to the claim which sparked this thread, which was that OW should not be surprised a MM lies about her on dday and if they had read up on EMRs, they would know not to take his lies personally, he would know not to bond hysterically with his wife, and all that will work to the end of continuing being in a secret A post-dday. That's what I'm responding to.

 

So yes, we're talking about 2 different things. But if your idea is of an education that doesn't allow him to pretend to reconcile while going back to the OW or just saying a bunch of muck the BS wants to hear, then I am in agreement with you on that as useful, but what O was responding to and thinking of was the former situation I mentioned, which is completely different and which I can't agree with.

 

I didn't see anything that suggested continuing in a secret affair, hence my total confusion!