The "other woman" in a sexless marriage

[BetrayedH]

Now find the courage.

 

Well said.

[nofool4u]

Things have settled down and they are divorcing and he's managed to repair his relationship with the kids, but I'm stuck. Am I really an adulterer?

 

No, not in the true definition of the word, but you are the mistress that is helping him cheat on his wife, which is just as bad IMO.

 

 

Or did I just save a nice man from a nightmare marriage?

 

You don't know what went on. He told you it was a sexless no touching marriage. You know this because HE told you. But you don't really know.

He may have very well be telling the truth. But it is also a possibility that things were as bad as he let on and he simply wanted to cheat. Therefore in order to get someone in bed, he isn't going to tell them he has a good marriage.

But thats just me putting out another possibility. Who knows what the truth is.

 

 

Why do I get the impression that she's plotting to hurt me or him before the divorce is finalized (she's dragged it out for two years)? Is 15 years without sex and years without kissing really that abnormal. She seems to think there was nothing wrong with their marriage except for ME. Why isn't the "real" other woman, who actually had sex with him for ten years before I showed up, the one she heaps the blame on? Help!?

 

 

If things were that bad, then he needed to get a divorce, not cheat. And you don't know. What would the reason be that she didn't touch him? What you see as a nice man could have been very different for her in the home. You simply don't know. Again, he could very well be telling the truth.

 

But it takes two to make a marriage work. This isn't all on her. But she is in NO WAY responsible for his decision to go outside the marriage. That is 100% on him. So of course she is pissed.

 

Now, I have to tell you that you are coming into a part of this website where most of the people in the Infidelity forum have been hurt by the actions of people like you and this married man. So don't be surprised or defensive of the replies you get. Because if its coddling you want, the OW/OM section will do that nicely for you.

[Mr. Lucky]

Softsprite, if you strip away all the projections, intentions and feelings that you've posted here's what's left:

 

- this man is a serial cheater who's still in a long-term marriage

- 30 years your senior, he offered you money for sex

- During an argument, he dislocated your kneecap

- He offers you no sexual fulfillment but you "service" him

- He doesn't respect you enough to even discuss your relationship with you

 

Now you can spin you story any way you want, but those are the cold, hard facts. Read 'em and weep...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

Wonder if he has a brother JUST like him and the OP can hook a sister up?

 

Based on multiple threads in this forum, he seems to have brethren everywhere...

 

Mr. Lucky

[wheream_i]

Marriage counseling was worthless for them because the wife wanted to talk about the so-called infidelity with me rather than the 15 years of celibacy she imposed on her husband.

 

Typical....

[softsprite]

I totally understand all of the anger here. I didn't come to the forum to be coddled and I sincerely apologize to anyone who was offended by the kind words of a few people. I don't really think they were trying to let me off the hook, and I wasn't trying to let myself off the hook either, despite what appears to be a long convoluted justification for what is (I agree with you!) an unforgivable sin. I'm sorry if it sounds like I am making excuses or trying to present myself as a "nice" person. There is one point, though, that makes this a little different and is the reason I am here and not in the OW/OM forum (I would never, ever, ever have done this in a circumstance other than the one I'm in, so I'm not an out-and-proud OW and I really have no compassion for them because they let their lust motivate bad decisions--I was not motivated by lust here). Asexual people make up 1% of the population and because there is (by her own account--the wife, that is) an asexual person involved in this "triangle," it's an extremely rare circumstance. I have been hurt by cheating in my life; I know what that feels like. But I've also been in sexless relationships, and if, in those relationships, my partners found sex elsewhere I'd not only be not-surprised, I'd be happy for them that they were getting a basic human need met instead of sublimating themselves to keep me comfortable. The idea was that the occasional sexual contact could extend the life of the sexless marriage long enough for his youngest child to graduate high school and leave home so that the kids wouldn't be stuck in the house during the separation and divorce he'd been planning since they were young. His previous hookup said the same thing--she was there to "fill in the blanks" for him until he had raised the kids and was free to leave. Maybe he was spineless, or maybe he was trying to protect them from the inevitably horrible drama that has just unfolded. Maybe he really was just trying to "work around" something in order to make his marriage function--because the true, first function of marriage is to secure a stable parenting unit, right? Does that make sense?

 

Thank you all for the very thoughtful and helpful posts.

 

I have talked with the wife long enough to confirm that she chronically withheld sex (for ten years) for one reason or another, something she tried to work out in therapy during the separation but ended up giving up on. It was an issue, according to her, of being "vulnerable" to other people. So I know that. The intimacy problem was a fact, and her denial of it was a fact. Beyond that, I don't know anything else about the innerworkings of the marriage. I just don't understand how a problem that chronic, that deep, which was "worked around" for ten years before I even showed up, could be resolved at this point. I know you'll say, "It would have been resolved if you hadn't been in the picture." Yeah, sure. Or he would have gone back to sleeping in the basement and dealing with it on his own. Or maybe she would have suddenly volunteered to do it if she'd known he was hurting, but considering she didn't really enjoy it (by her own admission) it would have been done with reluctance and resentment that could not have been healthy for her, or for him.

 

 

The alternative reality, the one I am scared to discover, is that "her" issue with sex was caused by years of suppressed anger because he was emotionally abusive to her. He'll say she was the emotionally abusive one, though. So I just don't know. I can see how trust issues early on in their marriage could have broken down their sex life pretty completely.

 

By the way, the rather unbalanced sex life he and I do have he also blames on the marriage--he didn't have any sex for five years with anyone at all, and then did it exactly one time a year for the following decade. So it's not exactly something he has much confidence in.

 

Or it's all a big lie and I'm a stupid girl. But she confirmed it to me, so how can it be a big lie? She confirmed it, she just didn't see anything wrong with it. She said, "Lots of couples our age are like this." But I've never met a couple who held out that long unless there was a real medical condition in play. Yes, lots of older couples "lose interest," but very few stop touching altogether even in nonsexual ways unless there is a deeply suppressed emotion--animosity, fear, betrayal--fueling a silent war between them. I don't know what to believe.

 

I came here just to ask maybe how other people worked around sexless marriages in which one partner wanted it and the other didn't, without resorting to infidelity or divorcing while there were still children in the house? How else? Tell one partner to jerk off instead? He did that. But it does become a rather lonely way of coping. I think probably most of us have been in that situation, and it's tolerable but not fulfilling. We wouldn't all be on this forum if we didn't have sexual needs--that's why people date, couple and get married in the first place generally: they are attracted, they are looking for warmth in each other. Except for the 1% of the population without sexual needs. But is that what I'm dealing with here? I will never know the truth!

 

My own self-esteem and bad choices in men aren't really the issue here that I came to resolve. I just came to ask about sexless marriages, that's all. I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk again. There's just no way: I've encouraged both of them repeatedly to go to counseling, to stay together if at all possible, in part because I know I don't want to take on this relationship. But they will not take each other back, so here I am.

[dreamingoftigers]

SS,

 

It's been a hard road to find out that the only way that you'll ever be able to save anyone from anything anywhere is by saving yourself.

You are drowning in a sea of expectation from others who have just as poor boundaries as you do.

 

"Saving" him make make you feel better for a short time. Him "being saved" by you may make him feel better for a short time.

 

Then you'll both resent the Hell out of each other. You will wonder "when is it EVER enough?" And he'll think "she's gone this far why doesn't she love me enough to go EVEN FURTHER."

 

You'll think he's selfish (and you''ll be right) He'll act like your entitled "(spoiled BRAT! I give her everything I can, I paid for her physical therapy! Last night she was too tired to give me my damn BJ after working 16 hours! I hate this!")

 

At best he is like a newborn. Mewling about his perilous, self-chosen lot in life.

 

Many WH are often child-like or baby like in their neediness. It's also gross.

 

If you want to raise a child, get some therapy, get healthy boundaries, find a nice young man who doesn't have more baggage than Heathrow, and have a baby. Or adopt one.

 

Don't raise a baby that's already in their 50s that is CLEARLY not going to grow up anytime soon.

[softsprite]

dreamingoftigers:

 

Yes. Yes yes yes.

[dreamingoftigers]

I totally understand all of the anger here. I didn't come to the forum to be coddled and I sincerely apologize to anyone who was offended by the kind words of a few people. I don't really think they were trying to let me off the hook, and I wasn't trying to let myself off the hook either, despite what appears to be a long convoluted justification for what is (I agree with you!) an unforgivable sin. I'm sorry if it sounds like I am making excuses or trying to present myself as a "nice" person. There is one point, though, that makes this a little different and is the reason I am here and not in the OW/OM forum (I would never, ever, ever have done this in a circumstance other than the one I'm in, so I'm not an out-and-proud OW and I really have no compassion for them because they let their lust motivate bad decisions--I was not motivated by lust here). Asexual people make up 1% of the population and because there is (by her own account--the wife, that is) an asexual person involved in this "triangle," it's an extremely rare circumstance. I have been hurt by cheating in my life; I know what that feels like. But I've also been in sexless relationships, and if, in those relationships, my partners found sex elsewhere I'd not only be not-surprised, I'd be happy for them that they were getting a basic human need met instead of sublimating themselves to keep me comfortable. The idea was that the occasional sexual contact could extend the life of the sexless marriage long enough for his youngest child to graduate high school and leave home so that the kids wouldn't be stuck in the house during the separation and divorce he'd been planning since they were young. His previous hookup said the same thing--she was there to "fill in the blanks" for him until he had raised the kids and was free to leave. Maybe he was spineless, or maybe he was trying to protect them from the inevitably horrible drama that has just unfolded. Maybe he really was just trying to "work around" something in order to make his marriage function--because the true, first function of marriage is to secure a stable parenting unit, right? Does that make sense?

 

Thank you all for the very thoughtful and helpful posts.

 

I have talked with the wife long enough to confirm that she chronically withheld sex (for ten years) for one reason or another, something she tried to work out in therapy during the separation but ended up giving up on. It was an issue, according to her, of being "vulnerable" to other people. So I know that. The intimacy problem was a fact, and her denial of it was a fact. Beyond that, I don't know anything else about the innerworkings of the marriage. I just don't understand how a problem that chronic, that deep, which was "worked around" for ten years before I even showed up, could be resolved at this point. I know you'll say, "It would have been resolved if you hadn't been in the picture." Yeah, sure. Or he would have gone back to sleeping in the basement and dealing with it on his own. Or maybe she would have suddenly volunteered to do it if she'd known he was hurting, but considering she didn't really enjoy it (by her own admission) it would have been done with reluctance and resentment that could not have been healthy for her, or for him.

 

 

The alternative reality, the one I am scared to discover, is that "her" issue with sex was caused by years of suppressed anger because he was emotionally abusive to her. He'll say she was the emotionally abusive one, though. So I just don't know. I can see how trust issues early on in their marriage could have broken down their sex life pretty completely.

 

By the way, the rather unbalanced sex life he and I do have he also blames on the marriage--he didn't have any sex for five years with anyone at all, and then did it exactly one time a year for the following decade. So it's not exactly something he has much confidence in.

 

Or it's all a big lie and I'm a stupid girl. But she confirmed it to me, so how can it be a big lie? She confirmed it, she just didn't see anything wrong with it. She said, "Lots of couples our age are like this." But I've never met a couple who held out that long unless there was a real medical condition in play. Yes, lots of older couples "lose interest," but very few stop touching altogether even in nonsexual ways unless there is a deeply suppressed emotion--animosity, fear, betrayal--fueling a silent war between them. I don't know what to believe.

 

I came here just to ask maybe how other people worked around sexless marriages in which one partner wanted it and the other didn't, without resorting to infidelity or divorcing while there were still children in the house? How else? Tell one partner to jerk off instead? He did that. But it does become a rather lonely way of coping. I think probably most of us have been in that situation, and it's tolerable but not fulfilling. We wouldn't all be on this forum if we didn't have sexual needs--that's why people date, couple and get married in the first place generally: they are attracted, they are looking for warmth in each other. Except for the 1% of the population without sexual needs. But is that what I'm dealing with here? I will never know the truth!

 

My own self-esteem and bad choices in men aren't really the issue here that I came to resolve. I just came to ask about sexless marriages, that's all. I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk again. There's just no way: I've encouraged both of them repeatedly to go to counseling, to stay together if at all possible, in part because I know I don't want to take on this relationship. But they will not take each other back, so here I am.

 

Most sexless marriages collapse. In the cases where one wants it and one doesn't.

 

What you are missing here is that if it was a pervasive problem, they should have talked about it openly and honestly with one another. The wife could have opened it up to others and both of them have an understanding.

 

By simply accepting the "Status quo" and ignoring each other on the very heavy topic, he's blown apart the marriage and pulled you into his stress and bulls**t.

 

When you are older, you'll totally see just how much BS this was. Very very poor behaviour, and this guy is old enough to know how finite and precious youth is.

 

I have been in a sexless marriage for 3 years. (improving now, but still) What it has done to my self-esteem sucks. BUT I also know that by seeking outside options without laying it on the line to my spouse is a degredation to my family and sets a TERRIBLE example to my daughter.

 

He had 10 years to figure out a better way to handle his situation. He chose to involve a very naive young lady who already had enough emotional baggage to contend with. That's reprehensible.

 

As a health(ier) adult, I already know that:

 

1. I will not accept a fraction of a marriage. If my husband isn't willing to work with me on the issue, and wants me to suffer with unmet needs, I will not go outside my marriage. Most likely I will leave because he doesn't give a enough of a crap about my relational needs to change anything.

 

2. I will be honest with my spouse about our issues because, well, everything else has pitfalls and I am not willing to put him or myself through guilt or shame.

 

3. I will not involve anyone else in my marriage. My marriage, as all of my other relationships, will rise or fall on their own merits. If my marriage needs life-support via someone else's penis: that's time to go.

 

4. If I was the type of person that would divide my time with a "Sexual surrogate" as it were, I wouldn't involve the most naive, manipulatable person around me. I would find a mature adult that I could be open and honest with. I wouldn't degrade them and call them crazy to my spouse. I certainly wouldn't abuse them or pop their knee-cap!

 

You are in the wrong place. This is a dark alley. Back up, turn around and run!

[NotInProvence]

Well...I am asexual. I didn't deny my ex, not by a long shot. I loved him more than I loved myself, so he got what he desired whenever he desired it. It isn't that I can't enjoy it physically either; it's just that it doesn't cross my mind and isn't something I seek.

 

It could be that she simply had to put herself first (I have heard that some asexuals simply have too much distaste for it after a while and it becomes uncomfortable). Honestly though, he sounds like a very selfish man (never tries to please you? Ever?). Perhaps he never approached her with cuddling or something that she might have enjoyed. Most asexuals I've met, myself included, love to cuddle! I find his claims of "no touching" to be odd...but they sound like they have issues communicating.

 

It wasn't lack of intimacy that made my relationship blow up: it was my ex's cheating, lying, selfishness, and entitlement. Your MM's ex may be reacting to the same thing: all these years she thought everything was fine, and then suddenly another woman is in the picture. Did she really have any warning?

 

If she is truly asexual, she can't be "fixed" because there is nothing wrong. It would be like trying to fix homosexuality or blue eyes--cruel, unnecessary, and pretty darn pointless. My worry for both of you though...this guy doesn't sound like he is such a prince. You're not much older than my daughter, sweetie; RUN while you have time! Let his kids worry about him.

 

I wonder...can a woman have White Knight syndrome? That's what I hear from you.

[softsprite]

tigers:

 

Thank you!!! This helps me so much.

 

I hope that your situation improves and I admire you very much for dealing with it in a mature way. See, that's how grown-ups do it. Your spouse is lucky to have such a patient spouse and your daughter is lucky to have such a responsible mom.

[dreamingoftigers]

I wonder...can a woman have White Knight syndrome? That's what I hear from you.

 

Yes. All of my ex-boyfriends were what my mother termed "birds with broken wings."

 

My husband was the first one who didn't have a "broken wing" and then when he did turn out to have the Mother of all broken wings, I did everything I could to help him repair it.

 

It's gotten better, but it is still a major dynamic in our marriage.

 

I resent him often. He resents me too.

[Janesays]

You did the wife a favor by breaking up this marriage.

 

Now do yourself a favor, too, and walk away from this man.

[softsprite]

NotinProvence:

 

Hey! No, there is nothing wrong with being asexual AT ALL, and I wish the psychiatric community would recognize that.

 

Yeah, she wasn't a cuddler though which is unusual--but that could be caused by deeper problems. Like, he resented the lack of sex, he projected that as aggression and became uncuddleable.

 

He thought she was aware of the previous affair because he didn't do much to hide it--he assumed there was a tacit agreement there. But once again, who knows. They should have talked about it straight-up, and the failure to do so indicates an emotional immaturity in one or both of them...I'm emotionally immature too, of course, so I shouldn't talk trash.

[softsprite]

Probably off topic, but one more facet of this thing:

 

I tried to send the wife a three page letter of abject apology right after she found out, but the husband wouldn't let me send it. Finally I managed to get her email address and did this by email, and she and I got to what I thought was a moment of grace in which she actually (by some miracle!) forgave me. I felt at peace and that I could leave and move on with my life.

 

BUT THEN

 

right after this exchange, she called her husband to tell him that I'd just sent her some "crazy, suicidal unstable message" and he called me to ask what was up, so I was back in the fray. Of course my message was none of these things, it was just the most sincere, wrenching apology that should be expected from the OW unless she's a psychopath. But her immediate initiation of more drama through that lie to her husband that kept me hooked into the situation IMMEDIATELY after we'd had this wonderful, surprisingly reconciliation was a red flag to me that perhaps things were more complicated than I thought. And that maybe she was all the things he claimed she was. I don't know.

[softsprite]

And I know: not my problem. Not my marriage. Must move on. But if his story is true...? Maybe she WAS a little crazy and I'm a little crazy too, maybe he's the one who picks bad women. And maybe this relationship can make me own up to my crazy once and for all and be a better person. Maybe I was the broken one all along and just experienced it in reverse?

 

typo in previous post: "surprisingly civil reconciliation" is what I meant to say

[Trimmer]

And I know: not my problem. Not my marriage. Must move on. But...

Seriously, girl, you need to stop one word earlier, at this:

 

And I know: not my problem. Not my marriage. Must move on.

Period. End of sentence, end of thought, end of analysis of him, her, them...

 

You must break the connection, break the link. This is a job for "No Contact", in word, deed, and thought.

 

Clean, complete break. Is there anything about this that's unclear?

 

Or, put another way:

There is craziness all around, don't worry about them, worry about yourself.

[ComingInHot]

seethin& , you said wtf to one of my posts and I felt I should comment.

 

First, I'm sorry that you took offense And I can see why*

 

When I made that comment, I was trying to take into account the age, maturity level and emotion state of the OP. That's why I stated, " IF you have substantiated, supported documentation..." I honestly, and even more so now, believe Softsprite does NOT have that.

Let's say by some intsy tintsy chance, she does. Then, this mm was SO stuck and beat down and felt he had no where to turn because he'd pretty much lost the will to be a man an live, then (MAYBE) this would be an exit A.

At which point, they may or may not end up together, but this poor, poor mm would realize there is life outside his misery, and D.

 

Do I think it's "right" ? Holy NO!

 

Again, I'm SO sorry that my post are you upset. It sincerely wasn't my intent*

[softsprite]

ComingInHot:

 

Yes, the image I had of this man was of someone so beat-down (his mistress before me sad he was suicidal, and that was way before I showed up) and hopeless that--

 

the reason his PARENTS liked me and wanted to meet me (long before he even filed for divorce) is that they'd been worried about him for years. They said they hadn't seen him this happy since he was a young man and wanted to meet the person who'd made him so happy. They think his wife is trying to ruin his health and his life. Now either they are just being honest, or they've always approached him with a "___ can do no wrong in our eyes" attitude, which is how he became a liar or narcissistic or whatever else he might be that would explain the alternative story of all this.

[ComingInHot]

Hey Softsprite,

Either way is this what you want the next twenty + years of your life to look like?

 

You definitely have some tough decisions to make*

 

At this point I would read AND RE-read what's been posted. A-lot of it VERY good & real

[softsprite]

I'll probably print out the whole conversation and make a little handbook for myself

 

Plan for now:

1. Get back into therapy

2. Consider relationship with him after divorce if he agrees to get therapy also

3. Maybe go on a date with that nice single person I know and see if it doesn't make me feel a little less crazy ?

4. Spend more time with my cat. For sure.

[softsprite]

What I would suggest is go and volunteer in a nursing home for two weeks, and then decide if at the age of twenty or thirty something that is what you would like your future to be for the next 5-10 years.

 

Hey! I actually do work in a nursing home! Have worked with Alzheimers' patients as well. Had to quit my previous job after wife started dropping by to visit me. I enjoy my job a great deal. Older people are generally more in touch with what really matters. But yes, I get your point.

[AnotherRound]

Wow - I just read this whole thread and hadn't noticed it before. You are certainly in a situation that has a lot of twists and turns! I'm so sorry that you are having to deal with all of this drama and such.

 

First, I want to say that the 1% you threw out for Asexual individuals is not accepted in the psychology community - it is believed to be MUCH higher than that (Like around 20% to 30%) in some populations. So, the chances that it really was a sexless marriage is about 1/4th likely - and not that farfetched.

 

Second, I have some real concerns about all of these issues you've presented from my own personal take. And definitely agree that counseling for you would be healthy. I do not believe that you are trying to relive your trauma regarding your Mother through this man - and would really feel better if you saw a professional who could respond to all of your input. On a public forum like this you will get a lot of guesses at things, but most of the people here aren't professionals (not sure if you were aware since you said you were a first time poster?). So, please, take their attempts at psychoanalyzing you with a grain of salt -and get a real professional opinion.

 

Finally - I just want to send you some strength and good thoughts for your upcoming journey. I hope that you can find peace - and you sound like (from what little you wrote here) a person with a good heart - don't let anyone take that from you, too few people in this world have those nowadays. Good luck with it all...

[softsprite]

Whew. I'm only going to say one final thing. One final minor complication, that I realize will probably offend betrayed spouses who were once other men/ other women. I'm not saying "What goes around comes around," but it does strike me as one of the injustices here:

 

The couple I'm involved with began their own marriage in adultery. Moved in together and skipped town while he was married to someone else. She had a boyfriend at the time too, and both of them left their significant others in the dust without even so much of a goodbye. She never lost sleep over his first wife. So how can she treat me with so little compassion if she was once the other woman too? Heartlessly so, never looking back? I just don't understand that hypocrisy.

 

AnotherRound: got my numbers from Journal of Sex Research in 2004. Things may have changed since then or maybe the stats are bad, but they seemed accurate since they are similar to the stats in other species as well. I'm referring to innate and lifelong asexuality: as in, zero arousal and interest in sex consistent from puberty through adulthood. The AVEN website is my other resource--used to frequent that a lot when I thought I myself was asexual. Turns out I was just too religious!

 

Thanks for wishing me luck. Hopefully I can get some distance and clarity in the next few weeks and stop spinning the rubik's cube of drama in my head.

[Trimmer]

Whew. I'm only going to say one final thing. One final minor complication, that I realize will probably offend betrayed spouses who were once other men/ other women. I'm not saying "What goes around comes around," but it does strike me as one of the injustices here:

Inevitably, when someone says "I'm not trying to be <blank>" (where <blank> is "offensive", "obnoxious", "racist", or whatever...) you can be pretty sure that what's coming next is some form of exactly that. So here we go:

The couple I'm involved with began their own marriage in adultery. Moved in together and skipped town while he was married to someone else. She had a boyfriend at the time too, and both of them left their significant others in the dust without even so much of a goodbye. She never lost sleep over his first wife. So how can she treat me with so little compassion if she was once the other woman too? Heartlessly so, never looking back? I just don't understand that hypocrisy.

How is that hypocrisy? According to your perspective, she was cold, heartless, and without compassion before, and she's being cold, heartless, and without compassion now. How do you fail to see your own perceptions of her as demonstrating completely consistent behavior?