Barnacle-Bob Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 Yep, he didnt see anything wrong with asking out his ex on a date behind my back, saying nasty things about me in front of his family, and generally acting like a total *******. I bolded that part because any issue that involves caring about somebody else's feelings, men dont think is an issue. They cannot be bothered with caring about other people. The ones that do act like they care, is really only to shut the woman up. Men dont really have much emotional depth and exist pretty much to self serve themselves and nobody else. Typical post hoc ergo procter hoc argument.
Els Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 Where did I ever say that? My experiences from talking to many married couples and marriage counselors is that overall (meaning an average- there are exceptions to everything) men dont care about emotional connectedness as much as women. I have met a few men that DO care as much as women, such as my twin brother and my best friend from highschool, but they arent the norm. "Emotional connectedness" the way you and your friends define it is not necessarily the only thing important in a relationship. Put me in a world where most of the men around me care to the same level as women and I will gladly change my opinion. That is not what I have found. You won't find that on LS, but I know several couples here. Want to come?
man_in_the_box Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I'll have to go for a while now, but I'll happily monitor this thread for whenever you have time to post some of the studies.
Els Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 Of course its not the only thing that is important. But their husbands dont really see it to be very important at all. Big difference. And you are extrapolating that to mean that the husbands care less. That's a huge leap because it's entirely possible that their husbands care more, in other ways. How do you not see that your generalization is exactly the same as the one that bitter men make about women and sex? 1
Imported Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 "Man(kind) is not a rational animal. He(she) is a rationalizing animal." Robert A. Heinlein 1
Els Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 How do they make up for it in other ways? Ive read the 5 Languages of Love and none of that really applies. None of these ones Im referring to make a lot of money/buy alot of gifts or do alot of small tasks for their wives so they arent doing it that way. Well, then, that is the men you know (and that's assuming you know them that well). Why do you think that theory applies to all men? Don't you think no women would want to be in relationships if that was the case? BTW, this boggles me because most of the long-term Rs I know don't involve the man doing less than the woman. Although I admit I do come from a different culture.
Els Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I dont think it applies to all men but a majority of them yes. I have stated that several times. What culture? Perhaps I should join. I come from an urban Asian culture. There was a lot of sexism there, granted, but it was still moving towards egalitarianism and most of the younger men seemed to retain their chivalrous traits, which made up for their traditional lack of emotional openness. I'm currently living in a very egalitarian Caucasian culture (more egalitarian and less religious than the USA) with the Asian bf that I met before moving, but it still seems pretty equal amongst the couples whom I know here. Both parties seem to give and take. Some of the younger generation of guys do seem to have some entitlement issues, but those are the ones who usually can't keep a girlfriend, so it seems to be pretty self-regulatory. My point is that if the majority of men were as bad as you say, the majority of women would stop wanting relationships, especially as women can fend for themsleves these days. Clearly that is not the case.
musemaj11 Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I have yet to meet a guy who doesnt give up generally, and expect me to put in more than 50% of the relationships efforts after the honeymoon stage is over. So you want men to do everything from the beginning to the end? Selfish much? There is a reason over 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Thats because women generally gain from a divorce while men lose from it. For many men its cheaper to keep their wives than dumping them even though they no longer feel happy in their marriage. Divorce for them means high risk of losing their assets and children. Emotional neglect and verbal abuse are the most cited reasons. My divorce lawyer friend said it is easy to convince many men that women should divorce over physical abuse, but when describing emotional neglect and verbal abuse many men seriously think there is nothing wrong with it. Men are not caring or emotional creatures typically- biologically they are not wired that way and then our society makes damn sure they dont genuinely care about the emotional needs of others. Society teaches boys not to cry and women look down on emotional men. Its like men whining that women dont put out quickly but when they do put out quickly they lose interest. So its the same dilemma ... I have no desire to tie myself down to a guy who will do this to me in the long run whilst Im supposed to just smile, make excuses for him and cater to him because Im a woman. Not applealing to me. Life is about choices. If you prefer to be alone without a man then do that. I think most women get fed up with men's continued emotional immaturity and taking the view of "well now Im married, I dont have to do anything to keep her" attitude In most families, the men contribute more financially. So its not like they are doing nothing.
greenetree Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I'm definitely a buyer and all I seem to attract are renters and freeloaders...
Author RedRobin Posted March 13, 2013 Author Posted March 13, 2013 The guy who wrote the book mentioned in the article I posted has a lot of other good things to say about why women leave men... and he can give people the numbers since he's been in the counseling field so long. Even more than abuse or even infidelity... women leave men for neglect. It's true. Kim has a point... culturally, men are not raised to know about how to meet a woman's emotional needs. Even when they do care it is often misdirected towards what they are culturally reinforced to believe... that women just care about $$ and that is the extent of it. Take a look around LS and you see men buying into that every day. For men (and women) who sincerely want to understand how to meet each other's needs, I'd recommend the guy's website. I'm willing to overlook the gender construct of it to get down to the basics... which is that we all have important needs, that, when met, make us feel in love. On the flip side, there are lots of people doing shorthand on gender roles instead of trying to get to know the other person as an individual. That I don't like. I don't like people telling me what I'm supposed to be just because I was born a woman. My primary complaint in any of this, culturally, is the fact that many of our religious traditions have taught men that they don't need to negotiate since they are the 'leader'... and he gets the final word because he happened to be born with an outty.... and that I'm the one that has to make the sacrifices because I'm the woman. This attitude has trickled down into secular society as well... and is enforced with more or less violence in lots of parts of the world... but I live in the US, so I only have to put up with the more subtle forms of it... In any form, this idea virtually institutionalizes the notion that the man is the emotional RENTER and the woman is the BUYER... all he does is supply a paycheck. That might work for some people, but it doesn't work for me.
Mme. Chaucer Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I thought our society taught women to value NEXT...and that there is always a next even when there isn't. The concept of "next" is certainly rampant in our society, and in no way gender specific. It extends to every area of life, from technology to relationships. And all people need to deal with it, especially younger generations. 1
Author RedRobin Posted March 13, 2013 Author Posted March 13, 2013 I'm definitely a buyer and all I seem to attract are renters and freeloaders... Me too... Unfortunately, most people seem to have become renters and freeloaders. There are lots of reasons for this. Buying IS risky... and if people legitimately feel they are getting their needs met by renting or freeloading, one can hardly blame them. If people have never personally witnessed a happy life-long marriage... up close... they can hardly be blamed for being skeptical about 'buying'.
Mme. Chaucer Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I dont think it applies to all men but a majority of them yes. I have stated that several times. What culture? Perhaps I should join. KD - seriously. There are posts all over this site written by men who hate women and who say loathsome things about us, using sweeping generalizations. You come off just exactly the same way as they do. You are ADDING to the very problems you are consistently complaining about by holding fast to your very skewed, sad and biased perspective. You contribute to sexism. Have you ever considered that the facts that you only (evidently) know men who you think are awful, and married people who you think are in an awful situation, and actively seek out ONLY "studies" that reenforce your skewed perspective might have more to say about YOU than about "men"? 2
Mme. Chaucer Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 but I see women encouraged to do it more. I see that ALL the sexists, like racists, etc. ONLY see what reenforces their own negative perspectives. This includes the man-bashing women. Think about abandoning this dead end way of looking at the world and your fellow human beings and see where it gets you. "Next" is a very useful concept when you want to quit wasting your time on negative, false biases. And for walking right past people who bring the bad into your life, whether they are men, women or anything in between. 3
123321 Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I agree with you but thats not realistic. If I decided to withhold sex until marriage Id be single forever. I cant find a guy willing to wait 3 months for sex. It doesnt exist anymore in my age group (Im 25) I waited before I got married. Wouldn't do it now though.
Mme. Chaucer Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I resist the notion of looking at relationships as buying, renting, etc because that clearly puts a person in the position of BEING a buyer or renter. A CUSTOMER. If it works for you, fine, but that is not a way that I'm wired to look at other people or relationships. OP - you know I love you, but I have to say that I do see you approaching all things to do with men and relationships with an eye to finding the bad. It seems that you are looking for the latent "freeloader" in every fellow. The bottom line, where I agree with everything, is that EVERYONE should be true to themselves, their own values and morals, and on THESE issues don't be adjusting your standards. This would include being with people who are looking for the same things in relationships as you are. 1
musemaj11 Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 Kim has a point... culturally, men are not raised to know about how to meet a woman's emotional needs. Even when they do care it is often misdirected towards what they are culturally reinforced to believe... that women just care about $$ and that is the extent of it. But then again in order to meet a woman's emotional needs, more often than not money is required. Women want romance and romance is not free. I mean how many times do we see on this forum for example where a woman complains that her boyfriend only wants to hang out at home and never takes her out on a date (which of course means he will have to spend money on her). So it may be true that women dont just care about the money itself, but what they care about in the end leads to the need of money nonetheless. 1
Woggle Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I think KD just sees what she wants to see. Trust me when I was in my bitter mode you could have put 100 great women in front of me and I would only see the bad one who sucks men dry and spits them out. I bet if she looked she would see some happy relationships amongst the people she knows. I sure did when I took off the misogynist filters.
man_in_the_box Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 This site wont let you load PDF's I tried. PDF's are what you get from paid databases that have scientific research. I dont want to post articles from websites because theyre not always empirical. Email me if you are really all that interested I'll send a PM with an e-mail adress. I do have access to various paid scientific databases through my university so it might not even be neccessary.
Author RedRobin Posted March 13, 2013 Author Posted March 13, 2013 I resist the notion of looking at relationships as buying, renting, etc because that clearly puts a person in the position of BEING a buyer or renter. A CUSTOMER. If it works for you, fine, but that is not a way that I'm wired to look at other people or relationships. I can see your point. It IS just another label... and I'm not necessarily fond of labels either. It does help to have 'something' to describe different levels of investment in a relationship. That is what I got out of it. OP - you know I love you, but I have to say that I do see you approaching all things to do with men and relationships with an eye to finding the bad. It seems that you are looking for the latent "freeloader" in every fellow. I agree I do that... but not toward all fellows. Just the single ones It doesn't help that men who are supposed to be grown ups can't or won't say what they are looking for up front. Or wants the kind of person who is someone who does invest... but aren't willing to be that kind of person himself. I realize it is a bit of a chicken/egg argument though... and that the same could apply with genders reversed. Someone has to demonstrate willingness first. I'm just tired of being the initiator that way. More than tired. Kinda numb. The bottom line, where I agree with everything, is that EVERYONE should be true to themselves, their own values and morals, and on THESE issues don't be adjusting your standards. This would include being with people who are looking for the same things in relationships as you are. agreed.
crude Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I have old male relatives who have literally worked their entire adult lives to support their wives, who had the freedom to do whatever they wanted. The women had jobs, quit jobs, watched soap operas for decades, got hobbies, worked part time if they felt like it. They spent time with their kids, told the husbands to spend time with the kids when they got bored with them, otherwise the men came home when the kids were asleep. The men didn't have one iota of variation in their lives, they just work 'til they drop. Sometimes the wives divorced the men, but said they refuse to get a job, they liked their lives just the way they are. The men had to support the ex wives to the end, letting them have the freedom the guys never enjoyed their entire adult lives. Men are the ones who usually give more, not less.
Author RedRobin Posted March 13, 2013 Author Posted March 13, 2013 I don't know where you are from. All of the women in my family either worked in their husband's business or got other jobs outside the home as soon as the kids were in school. Some went back to work much earlier than that. Some were obliged to because their husbands didn't make enough for her to stay home. Others did it because they wanted to. Almost all of them are still married to the same person they married when young. When I go to visit them, it is like a huge family reunion... everyone married to each other forever with tons of kids running around. Many generations. I'm the outlier... which is why I get sad sometimes... and angry too.
crude Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I don't know where you are from. All of the women in my family either worked in their husband's business or got other jobs outside the home as soon as the kids were in school. Some went back to work much earlier than that. Some were obliged to because their husbands didn't make enough for her to stay home. Others did it because they wanted to. In upper middle class and affluent homes, women still don't contribute much. They make it clear they don't EVER want to work, that's why they got married. Also, don't be fooled by long marriages. Just because people stay married doesn't mean they're happy. I'm sure most of the husbands have cheated on their wives, there's been domestic violence, and they're not necessarily madly in love with each other anymore. They just go through the motions, exist, and appear happy on the surface because you want to believe in that kind of family, and dream that it's possible for you some day. 1
HoneyBadgerDontCare Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 Numbers wise, Ive met far more men than women who take a relationship for granted. I find women to be more interested in satisfying their partner's needs than men in the long run. Every. single. one. of my female married friends has made complaints that their husbands have become detached. Im talking more than 10 women and they didnt marry *******s either and do not have ridiculous expectations. Pretty much all of my male friends (who arent jerks) do the same thing with their girlfriends after theyve been dating them for a year. They admit to me its hard to not take them for granted I think you're a bit biased here (being that you're a female and many of your posts suggest you are at least a bit of a misandrist). I think most people have a sense of entitlement these days and don't want to work for anything. People think marriage is easier than it really is. Many often marry just because their friends are doing it. They don't want to put the work in to fix the problems (one, if not both, of the spouses do this) and then they divorce....or, if they're too scared to leave their comfort zones, they stay together in misery. No, it's not the man's fault and it's not the woman's fault. It's BOTH of their faults. ETA: Of course, each individual situation is different...and oftentimes, it more one spouse than the other....but it takes two to tango, remember. 1
HoneyBadgerDontCare Posted March 13, 2013 Posted March 13, 2013 I dont need counselling. When a man treats me badly and doesnt see anything wrong with it, I dump them and move on and hope the next one is better. The "Men" in that above statement refers to my ex.... Seems like you need some counseling yourself since you imply men dont see treating a girl like **** to be an issue. I bet you are a real treat to date So basically, one guy wasn't very nice to you and now you've decided that the entire gender (all 3.5 billion of us) are exactly the same and really suck. Have you considered dating somedude81? You guys could spend all day arguing about which gender is worse lol
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