My "date" on Sunday Morn

[Cutiepie1976]

Dating can be a tough slog. True. Still, focus on what you can change--that is you and your behavior. That is all you can control. Not once, have I seen you become introspective about your role in things. It's why I typically avoid your threads. It's always about the "flaky" women and why they don't behave reasonably to your attempts to date them. Never you.

 

Sorry, but continue that mode of thinking and nothing will change for you.

[normal person]

So I started to think, a few days later as the weekend was approaching, that I decided to take her up on that. So I brought up the idea of meeting at her church.....she said "Sure, and let's meet about 15 mins before to for coffee."

 

So she was definitely in agreement on that.

 

To me it sounds like you got just what you asked for and nothing more. In my opinion, if you wanted a date, you should have just asked for one instead of waiting for the mythical "right opportunity" during some odd transitional pre-date. Then again, I don't know how well you know her so maybe it was necessary.

 

Then she followed up with an apology about all that, and I interpreted it as that as an opportunity to actually ASK her out on a date...and that this first thing was just a fluke, or perhaps a transitional period before a real date.

 

She could just be apologizing because it's the polite thing to do.

 

And I also interpreted it as her saying, "I feel bad about not having to talk to you more, so perhaps we can do this again sometime?"

 

Did she actually say "we should do this again sometime" or are you idealizing the situation and putting words in her mouth? If she just apologized, that's actually a pretty big indicator that she actively doesn't want to do it again sometime. If she apologized and expressed interested in doing it again where it'd be more conducive to interaction, then you could be more optimistic.

 

It sounds to me like you're strongly misinterpreting a clear social cue.

[dasein]

There's nothing wrong with you. This one isn't interested or gaming, either bad. Please consider not using text to ask women out though. Keep plugging, I think you are doing things right, and are just having a string of flakes, unlike some other posters. I remember a period in my 20s when I had nothing but flakes for over a year. Running into a couple of those women down the road, they were all over me with "I really wanted to go out, why did you quit calling?" as if they hadn't flaked over and over, come up with silly ass diverting excuses about going out, and signalled no interest at all. NOW they were interested and revising history?

 

The most extreme one of these invited me to a big name rock concert in her city 2 hours away about a month before the concert. We made clear, particular plans. I took off work in advance for a three day weekend. We had been dating and physical for about a month at the time, no sex yet. During a phone convo a week before the show, I asked, "so when should I get there next week?" She acted like she had no idea what I was talking about, and then when I was specific, said, "Oh that isn't going to work out." She had obviously given the tickets to someone else or was taking another date. I stopped calling her and asking her out, taking that as a sign of disinterest. A year or so later, I ran into a mutual friend who was like "X was really into you, why did you quit calling?" as if she couldn't possibly have called me after dissing me on the concert plans. It was like the same playbook over and over.

 

Could give many more examples of this, dozens over the years. Women tend towards flakiness, and most dating pools I've been in over the years are full of the same, even into their 30s. It's not you, it's her, don't believe otherwise. Keep your dating plans binary, keep yourself sane. Never try to blend their lives and yours at the start, make a specific plan, ask them out via phone or in person. Get yes or no and that's that. No contact or very low between dates. Keep the reins until they prove they are quality. Most of them are simply incapable of dating in any reasonable, considerate way otherwise, and no one calls them on it, so they continue on their merry way and then lament down the road, "I can't get a date, where are all the good men? all the good ones are taken," totally oblivious to their roles in that.

[normal person]

It's not you, it's her, don't believe otherwise. Keep your dating plans binary, keep yourself sane. Never try to blend their lives and yours at the start, make a specific plan, ask them out via phone or in person. Get yes or no and that's that. No contact or very low between dates. Keep the reins until they prove they are quality. Most of them are simply incapable of dating in any reasonable, considerate way otherwise, and no one calls them on it, so they continue on their merry way and then lament down the road, "I can't get a date, where are all the good men? all the good ones are taken," totally oblivious to their roles in that.

 

I agree with some of this, but just because girls can be flakey doesn't mean that there might not also be something about him that's a deterrent to some. Everyone has different tastes.

Let's be honest, "flakiness" isn't the one singular reason girls aren't going out with guys. There are multiple factors on both ends.

 

I think it'd be wise to have a healthy sense of introspection and perception of how others view us.

Edited March 12, 2013 by normal person

[SteveC80]

There's nothing wrong with you. This one isn't interested or gaming, either bad. Please consider not using text to ask women out though. Keep plugging, I think you are doing things right, and are just having a string of flakes, unlike some other posters. I remember a period in my 20s when I had nothing but flakes for over a year. Running into a couple of those women down the road, they were all over me with "I really wanted to go out, why did you quit calling?" as if they hadn't flaked over and over, come up with silly ass diverting excuses about going out, and signalled no interest at all. NOW they were interested and revising history?

 

The most extreme one of these invited me to a big name rock concert in her city 2 hours away about a month before the concert. We made clear, particular plans. I took off work in advance for a three day weekend. We had been dating and physical for about a month at the time, no sex yet. During a phone convo a week before the show, I asked, "so when should I get there next week?" She acted like she had no idea what I was talking about, and then when I was specific, said, "Oh that isn't going to work out." She had obviously given the tickets to someone else or was taking another date. I stopped calling her and asking her out, taking that as a sign of disinterest. A year or so later, I ran into a mutual friend who was like "X was really into you, why did you quit calling?" as if she couldn't possibly have called me after dissing me on the concert plans. It was like the same playbook over and over.

 

Could give many more examples of this, dozens over the years. Women tend towards flakiness, and most dating pools I've been in over the years are full of the same, even into their 30s. It's not you, it's her, don't believe otherwise. Keep your dating plans binary, keep yourself sane. Never try to blend their lives and yours at the start, make a specific plan, ask them out via phone or in person. Get yes or no and that's that. No contact or very low between dates. Keep the reins until they prove they are quality. Most of them are simply incapable of dating in any reasonable, considerate way otherwise, and no one calls them on it, so they continue on their merry way and then lament down the road, "I can't get a date, where are all the good men? all the good ones are taken," totally oblivious to their roles in that.

 

While you might be right the op has made the same exact type of thread for years straight about women and their flakiness when the common denominator is HIM

 

Sure there are flaky women out there but accodring to the op every women hes gone for which following his threads have been tons have all ended the same way

 

WHats more likely is some of the women were flaky but most had no interest and for whatever reason the op is horrible at reading social cue and taking hints

 

Op seems to think the most casual meet ups are dates and apparently nothing short of the women calling and telling him to f off and die are signs enough for him that a women might not be interested

[dasein]

Well steve and normal, was just going through my own, and friends' experiences in the early mid 20s. Couldn't buy a nonflake, and it went on for a few years. Women were all after the guys in their early 30s with nice cars and climbing the ladder, band guys, druggie hipster guys, or guys who were already rich from birth. Oh and the ones who were already taken or involved, they were covered up with women too.

 

The only couple of things I changed were 1. making the process binary, simple and clear, controlling as many variables as possible and upping my approaches. Then I had lots of women for a few years, then another flakey spell. Later 2. I got into OLD and started off a total noob at that, poor results. Spent time figuring out how it works and with effort, owned match in my area over time. Haven't had a flake in years, even during 50 or more OLDs. Relatively little about me changed other than being much more sexually assertive, light, flirty, less idealistic and cerebral, not really giving a damn as much. After a point, they just sense you are not the type of guy to trifle with, have options, can get what you want when you want, and if they want their chance they better respond well, act right or you are gone. Also getting to the point where you could care less about relationships or not and "nailing down" a GF helps. They can sense this.

 

The "Doc Love" philosophy was also helpful, I took some stuff from that and it worked, sometimes too well. Have women, casual acquaintances come up now and again and say things like "I love you," and ask me out, not drunk either. Younger women, much younger, flirt much more, I have lots of gray hair too, and not in the same shape as in my 20s. Those types of women wouldn't give me a look in my 20s, they do now, despite nothing being much different. Dress much better, which is important. NEVER had anything like that before I changed tactics. I think OP is just going through the same learning process I had to, could have been him and making the same types of threads then if there had been forums like this.

[normal person]

 

Relatively little about me changed other than being much more sexually assertive, light, flirty, less idealistic and cerebral, not really giving a damn as much. After a point, they just sense you are not the type of guy to trifle with, have options, can get what you want when you want, and if they want their chance they better respond well, act right or you are gone. Also getting to the point where you could care less about relationships or not and "nailing down" a GF helps. They can sense this.

 

To be fair, this sounds like a pretty dramatic change in terms of attracting women. It required you to learn from all your mistakes and reprogram your whole thought process. It doesn't sound like "relatively little" has changed at all. The things you improved on make a world of difference. Those sound like two completely different individuals to me and to, I would imagine, women.

 

It sounds like the OP could learn a lot from you. I just don't think it's reasonable to assume that it's 100% women's fault. The way I read this, you had considerable success after you changed. I'd bet the OP would do much better if he changed his approach like you did and worked to become a little more perceptive.

[dasein]

I don't think it's 100% women's fault, but if you have been around here awhile you will notice a curious "unwarranted blameshifting to the guy" tendency, and it has poked up in this thread. I don't care if he has made other threads with similar outcome, and don't subscribe to the common denominator cliche' either. Let's face it, the dating pool sucks ass, and it's quite possible to come up with a string of bad bets, for years even. In this case I think we have lots of evidence of this girl being a bad bet, and that's being charitable.

 

Will just come out and say it, I think this girl is a POS, would say the same if a guy behaved that way. She's doing the bare minimum to keep herself feeling like a "good person" while wasting OP's time and IMO she full well knows it, else she's retarded. Mature, thoughtful adults don't do that, and I don't think turning the magnifying glass around on OP is good advice here.

[normal person]

There are two things being discussed here, one is some posters' sentiment that "the OP must be doing something wrong." This is speculation because no one knows him but that doesn't mean there couldn't be some truth to this. The other is his apparent misreading of social cues. I agree that he isn't at "fault" for that, but it's definitely something he needs to figure it out.

 

I'm of the opinion that this situation is a product of a few things: The girl's flakiness and the OP's misinterpretation of it. Whether or not her flakiness was spurred by something about the OP is certainly up for debate. I guess my point is that while I agree with you (Dasein) that the girl has acted poorly and wasted his time, he could have saved his own time if he had figured out the dynamics of the situation for himself.

[Cutiepie1976]

Well steve and normal, was just going through my own, and friends' experiences in the early mid 20s. Couldn't buy a nonflake, and it went on for a few years. Women were all after the guys in their early 30s...

 

To be clear, the OP is a middle-aged man, not some noob twenty-year old dating inexperienced teenagers or twenty-year olds.

 

What exactly did this woman do wrong? How exactly did she lead him on? He contacted her and told her he'd like to drop by her church. She said fine. They agreed to meet at the coffee stop at her church fifteen minutes before the service. Sorry, but how is that even a date?!? How that then turns into her ignoring all his attempts for further contact just boggles the mind. She was perfectly responsive beforehand. EVERY woman involved in his numerous threads over the years ends up acting this way! Ignoring him.

 

What some of us are encouraging the OP to do is perhaps to turn the spotlight around and figure out what he might want to consider doing differently...as most people naturally do after each encounter. Should he pick women differently? Should he behave differently? Is he routinely misinterpreting social cues? etc.

 

I know a single guy in his mid-sixties who still acts this way! Blames EVERY single woman he encounters. He has never had a second date in his life...ever. Obviously, never had a relationship. Cannot interpret social cues if his life depended on it. But somehow it's the fault of every single woman he pursues. Again, zero introspection. Zero insight. Zero interest in considering his role in his uniform failure. It's painful to witness. I imagine even moreso to live.

 

Who knows what the full scope of issues might be here. There are certainly strong clues is other threads. At any rate, hopefully the OP reconsiders his stance of heaping all the blame on all these women he pursues and "dates." It will be a very frustrating and lonely path otherwise.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Cutiepie1976

[RachR]

Sounds more like to me the OP thought he was on a date when he actually wasn't. Saying "I'll take you up on that" and squeezing in a meetup for coffee for 15 minutes before going to something like church isn't a date, it's just a friendly get together, like acquaintances or friends do.

[dasein]

Well I thought he was in his mid late 20s, my bad if mistaken. Age itself doesn't really change things that much, some people are late bloomers, or in a limited pool for years, etc. Have read lots of OP's threads, and he has a fixation on nitpicking things that women do OLD. Well, that's not that big a deal.

 

But c'mon on the girl and the rationalizations. Have seen lots and lots of that around here for questionable female dating behavior, whereas many are swift to hold men's feet to the fire in similar situations.

 

OP could use some more definite asking out techniques, but women know when a man is expressing interest, they know full well unless the guy is totally one of those "back door friend cheezers," they just -choose- to see it other than as a process of self-deception even Sartre (the furthest thing from a PUA or chauvinist) made an example of in Being and Nothingness. Women like to have male attention, and until the "right" attention comes along, they are more than happy to waste men's time they deem "not right." This is a given reality men must deal with. My estimation of her being a POS was hyperbole, but in reaction to the OP blame game "pinata" so many of these repeated inexperienced guy threads turn into. Have never understood that tendency here, as men do not do it to regular female posters in the same way.

 

She accepted a date, if a poorly chosen one. Set things up so that contact would be minimal, had a really lame excuse with having to meet the friend right after, and then ignored OP's further invitation. Ignored it. Quality people don't ignore without cause, no matter how much female rationalization attempts to justify it. Why not just say "no" to begin with? And I expect a raft of rationalization on the answer to that too. She likes the attention, just doesn't like him. Same old same old, and men are right to get confused and annoyed at it.

[HoneyBadgerDontCare]

To be clear, the OP is a middle-aged man, not some noob twenty-year old dating inexperienced teenagers or twenty-year olds.

 

What exactly did this woman do wrong? How exactly did she lead him on? He contacted her and told her he'd like to drop by her church. She said fine. They agreed to meet at the coffee stop at her church fifteen minutes before the service. Sorry, but how is that even a date?!? How that then turns into her ignoring all his attempts for further contact just boggles the mind. She was perfectly responsive beforehand. EVERY woman involved in his numerous threads over the years ends up acting this way! Ignoring him.

 

What some of us are encouraging the OP to do is perhaps to turn the spotlight around and figure out what he might want to consider doing differently...as most people naturally do after each encounter. Should he pick women differently? Should he behave differently? Is he routinely misinterpreting social cues? etc.

 

I know a single guy in his mid-sixties who still acts this way! Blames EVERY single woman he encounters. He has never had a second date in his life...ever. Obviously, never had a relationship. Cannot interpret social cues if his life depended on it. But somehow it's the fault of every single woman he pursues. Again, zero introspection. Zero insight. Zero interest in considering his role in his uniform failure. It's painful to witness. I imagine even moreso to live.

 

Who knows what the full scope of issues might be here. There are certainly strong clues is other threads. At any rate, hopefully the OP reconsiders his stance of heaping all the blame on all these women he pursues and "dates." It will be a very frustrating and lonely path otherwise.

 

Wow really? I thought OP was like 18 lol

[irc333]

I have to say, I only express the problems I have with women, but I have had my successes as well.

 

So it hasn't been ALL bad. Like I had that older, attractive woman who wanted to go out with me (just the hang-up about lying about her age)...go figure. <shrug>. At least I had my dates....just like anyone else here, people have had both successes and failures.

 

Otherwise, we wouldn't have a "Love Shack"

 

You have to admit, women have had it made it more difficult for men to pick up on social cues....women are very subtle, so it's hard to figure them out. And the dating problems these days are pretty much analogous to the divorce rate or short-termed relationships sky rocketing.

 

Sometimes, I feel old-fashioned, and feel like I should've grown up in the 40's or 50's where women were more eager to date, they didn't play games, and they didn't have hang-ups on superficialities. Today's women (even men) are all about game playing or have this apathetic attitude towards their sig. others.

Edited March 13, 2013 by irc333

[irc333]

To be honest, I may be even ignoring social cues if they are even there. Because if I did, I'd probably even have lesser chances of getting a first date.

 

I'm not the greatest looking guy in the world or anything, but....if I just picked up on a "social cue" every time I read into one, I'd probably never date. lol

 

I'd rather be TOLD that they're not interested, as opposed to having to pick up on social cues that they aren't.

Edited March 13, 2013 by irc333

[irc333]

Personally, I belive I shouldn't have to pick up on social cues,at least to a certain extent I know when to "take the hint", but.....I'm really all about the woman saying "Hey, sorry, I don't think of you in that way"

 

I've had women tell me that...and regardless, I liked it better that way, as oppose to the games and flakiness.

 

You call it "not picking up on social cues", but....I'd prefer honesty

[salparadise]

Relatively little about me changed other than being much more sexually assertive, light, flirty, less idealistic and cerebral, not really giving a damn as much. After a point, they just sense you are not the type of guy to trifle with, have options, can get what you want when you want, and if they want their chance they better respond well, act right or you are gone. Also getting to the point where you could care less about relationships or not and "nailing down" a GF helps. They can sense this.

 

The "Doc Love" philosophy was also helpful, I took some stuff from that and it worked, sometimes too well. Have women, casual acquaintances come up now and again and say things like "I love you," and ask me out, not drunk either. Younger women, much younger, flirt much more,

 

Women like to have male attention, and until the "right" attention comes along, they are more than happy to waste men's time they deem "not right." This is a given reality men must deal with. [...] Have never understood that tendency here, as men do not do it to regular female posters in the same way.

 

She likes the attention, just doesn't like him. Same old same old, and men are right to get confused and annoyed at it.

 

I understand exactly where Dasein is coming from on this. I've had experiences similar to the OP's, and I've had my share of successes as well. Unfortunately, many of the successes have been due to me playing a role designed to appeal to what I've figured out that women want, or most women anyway.

 

The problem is that when you get a woman by playing the role you have to continue playing the role to keep her interested. What I really want is to just be myself and be appreciated for who I am. That means toning down the role playing and showing more of who I am even if it means less initial success and having to go through more prospects to find the ones who connect naturally with the real me. However, it's still necessary play the role, the toned down version, for awhile because women are women and there are certain things that nearly all women are attracted to. I'll give an example...

 

When I was in my mid-teens I wasn't one of the naturally hot football player types that all the girls wanted, but I guess I was a second tier type of guy as I could talk and hang out with the girls. So one summer night there were some girls having a sleepover in a camper in the back yard at one of their houses. So several of us guys made a plan to camp out that night and go over there, and we did. So we're sitting around socializing and I wasn't getting any special attention from the girls, just friend attention. Then one of the girls suggested that we play cards. Well, it just so happened that that I had recently been practicing some card tricks, and had become fairly proficient at dealing from the bottom of the deck. As long as I kept winning I could keep dealing, so when I finally got a chance to deal I was on fire! And when I figured out that nobody knew what to look for I even became cocky––they all knew I was cheating hand after hand but they couldn't figure out how. So I assumed this persona of a guy who couldn't possibly lose, the alpha or whatever you want to call it. Next thing I know these girls are all over me... sitting close, leaning in, touching me, sustained eye contact, whispering little things in my ear! I had suddenly discovered how to flip their switch! Finally, when the prettiest one maneuvered herself next to me and was rubbing it all over me, I said I was bored with the card game and took her outside and made out. Even the guys were impressed with how I handled myself and got the girls to flock to me, and talked about it for days afterward.

 

So the takeaway is to understand that woman are biologically programmed to be attracted to certain characteristics in males, and to actually integrate some amount of this into your persona, and increase your natural appeal rather than having to act like someone you are not to attract them.

 

Other things are simply behaviors and attitudes you need to practice when interacting with women, as Dasein says. I watched a few of the Doc Love videos and as much as I really don't like the way it's presented, there are certainly things to be learned from his so called method.

 

I know there will be women on here who won't like the assertion that attraction can be manipulated this easily, and perhaps it's not true for every woman, but generally speaking if you eliminate the features women find unappealing and integrate a few things that they do, you'll find yourself having a lot more options. And when women see that other women find you appealing it multiplies the effect. Ladies, this is not meant to be disrespectful... it's nothing more than the flip side of men being attracted to beautiful faces and nice figures.