Why I wanted a second-hand WS

[cocorico]

Some BS claim they cannot understand why an OW or OM would want someone else's "cheating" spouse, which I guess is the flip side of an OW or OM wondering, "why would a BS want to stay with someone who cheated *on them*?". So rather than upset the apple cart with a possible t/j, I thought I'd start this thread here where I could explain why I, as a fOW, wanted a second-hand "WS", where other OWs or OMs could add their own reasons (those that do; if you don't actually want the WS and are just happy to borrow and return them like a favourite library book, that's also cool) as a public service to those who don't understand.

 

 

So, why did I want a second-hand WS?

 

Firstly, I don't believe that how someone behaves in one situation is necessarily how they will behave in every situation. So I don't buy the "once a cheater, always a cheater" line. I think this is particularly true where they are in a situation of duress, where circumstances compel them to act out of character. Those who are old enough to remember the plane crash in the Andes will recall how the survivors were forced to eat the dead bodies of their fellow passengers in order to survive.

 

They did not go on to become cannibals for the rest of their lives - it was an extreme situation, they did what they needed in order to survive, and when normality returned, they returned to normal. Might they eat human flesh again if they were stranded in another plane crash on another remote mountain range with no other means of survival? No doubt some would; I'm equally sure some others are still so haunted by having broken the taboo that they would rather starve; and I'm sure it's equally so for As.

 

I had seen my fMM in "normal" Rs with others - family who had known him his entire life, friends who saw him in all situations, colleagues who spent every day with him, etc - and I knew that how he was in his M was highly anomalous. It was a situation of duress, not of normality, and as such he acted out of character within its confines. So while I know that a risk exists that, placed in a situation of similar duress, he may respond in a similarly anomalous way, I also know there's equally a chance that his experience of breaking a "taboo" would have sworn him off even considering that option should it arise in the future.

 

Secondly, he has shown by his actions and his orientation, not just his words, that he can be trusted. He took his counselling very seriously, did all the hard work required to understand why he did what he did (and didn't do what he didn't) and took steps to address and resolve the issues. He has become highly self-aware, very emotionally literate and completely committed to doing whatever it takes to ensure the health and strength of the R and the emotional well-being of both the participants. In the same way that reconciling BSs look for signs of commitment, focus, remorse and initiative from their fWS in deciding whether or not to R, I've sought and found that evidence, in spades, and receive it every day.

 

Thirdly, it is often said here that "a man will move mountains to be with the one he loves". Well, when he moves mountains to demonstrate the depth of his love, it would be very unfair if the woman who claimed to love him was not willing to move even a small pile of sand. When he has done so much to show his commitment to me and to our R, the R we both want, it would be churlish of me to make no effort from my side by refusing to allow myself to participate as an equal partner. So I am willing to meet his investment with my own investment. To me, a R that is sustainable is fair and balanced. Both partners need to commit equally, and I'm willing to do that. Love without action is simply words.

 

And fourthly, I want him because of who he is - quite the most wonderful partner I could conceive of. I feel blessed to know him and have him in my life, and my life with him is so much richer than without, in all ways. Given the choice of "having" him or not "having" him, why would I walk away from that?

 

Other OWs /OMs, feel free to add...

[White Flower]

Long time no see on this forum cocorico! And I must say I'm still impressed with your writing style and logic.

 

I am posting as a fOW but I can relate my past experience. Love the Andes analogy by the way, it's perfect for me. I could never go there again but can totally understand why others would.

 

Your fMM did all the work and became highly self aware. My fMM went through the motions and did some of the work but could not make it to self-actualization, sadly. Before I recognized this outcome and had faith in him to reach that self awareness I felt as you did and expected the same outcome.

 

I went to one of his IC appointments where I heard his IC tell him that our R was the healthier R, but fMM would have to realize that on his own. He did intellectually, but sadly he couldn't break away from the toxic codependent M and when I realized that he was never going to graduate, always be a dropout, forever be a risk, well, I no longer wanted the second hand WS. I needed my partner to give it his all, as much as I was giving, and for us to be intellectual equals as well as perfect together in every other way. We had it all except for the intellectual bit, he just couldn't step up to the plate.

 

My own anomalous walk was about freedom from a toxic M, about spiritual growth, and self-actualization. If my second hand WS couldn't keep up with my speed then I couldn't take him along for the ride. But there was a very long time I thought he was worth it and could make it.

 

I know he regrets his lack of diligence in overcoming the codependency, and losing me. He sent roses on Valentine's day but I just couldn't call him to thank him. That ship has sailed.

Edited March 6, 2013 by White Flower

[Got it]

C- I agree and that was exactly my thought process and evaluation. Being my MM was not a feat for the faint of heart. I had nothing to lose to lay out every expectation I could ever think of. Because if he wasn't willing to do it, then I would see his intentions early on. But every time the bar was raised he met it. His situation was somewhat unique.

 

Seething - Why would someone want to be a OW? Because it is the short term solution for a bigger picture. I laid out for dMM what I wanted, what I expected, and what I wouldn't accept. If he is willing to jump through amazing hoops to date me it was a short term solution that I found to be acceptable enough. Did I like the negative side of things, the pain caused to others? Of course not, neither did he.

 

While hard to believe, there were no lies between us. We had no reason to lie to each other. Every situation is different but that is the truth of our relationship.

[LFH]

I don't want someone else's spouse, and I certainly wouldn't want her marriage. I can't understand why anyone would want a marriage like that.

 

I want him.

 

Wanting him trumps the fact that he's married. He's already proven he places no value on his marriage, so I'm not going to place more on it than he does.

[Summer Breeze]

Whiteflower. Welcome back! I'm so happy you're back and sounds like you're doing so well.

 

I think a lot like LFH and GotIt. It was the man I fell in love with and what I ended up wanting when I said goodbye was an R with him. I saw pics of their house and it wasn't anything I cared for or in a place I would want to live. He and I had combined and separate business interests but I made more money than he did. Their kids weren't an issue because I have no interest stepping into someone elses role as mom and they were pretty much grown up anyway. I was introduced to his family during the A and had good Rs with them. I wanted MY life with him not anyone elses.

Edited March 6, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[dreamingoftigers]

I don't want someone else's spouse, and I certainly wouldn't want her marriage. I can't understand why anyone would want a marriage like that.

 

I want him.

 

Wanting him trumps the fact that he's married. He's already proven he places no value on his marriage, so I'm not going to place more on it than he does.

 

I get this. I do.

 

Seems like he's that only one that fits?

 

How did you guys meet? When did you find out he was M?

 

(no sarc or blast of whatever coming that a lot if these threads get)

[LFH]

I get this. I do.

 

Seems like he's that only one that fits?

 

How did you guys meet? When did you find out he was M?

 

(no sarc or blast of whatever coming that a lot if these threads get)

 

He was a friend of a friend actually. I knew almost right away he was married.

I never expected to get involved.

Friendship turns to something else when you aren't looking closely enough sometimes.

[JamesM]

 

So, why did I want a second-hand WS?

 

Firstly, I don't believe that how someone behaves in one situation is necessarily how they will behave in every situation. So I don't buy the "once a cheater, always a cheater" line.

 

Secondly, he has shown by his actions and his orientation, not just his words, that he can be trusted.

 

Thirdly, it is often said here that "a man will move mountains to be with the one he loves".

 

And fourthly, I want him because of who he is - quite the most wonderful partner I could conceive of. I

 

 

I am neither an OM nor an OW, but I cannot understand why a MM would be called second-hand. It is no different than getting a divorced person....except he or she is still committed.

 

I agree that once a cheater does not always mean he will cheat again. Statistically, the chance IS higher that when the marriage gets difficult with the new person, an affair will seem like an attractive option. Someone who never cheated won't be as inclined to cheat.

 

As for trusting him, I think that is great. I hope he keeps that trust. But I also cannot help but think that his first wife would have said what you are saying the day before she discovered his affair with you. Only time will tell if he can keep his trust...as it would be for anyone.

 

I think your last point is why anyone chooses anyone whether married or unmarried. You want him no matter what. And that is how is should be. The future is unknown for all of us. But to forfeit a relationship with someone you love for what ifs is foolish.

 

Long time no see on this forum cocorico!

 

WF, it is good to see you again!

 

I don't want someone else's spouse, and I certainly wouldn't want her marriage. I can't understand why anyone would want a marriage like that.

 

I want him.

 

Wanting him trumps the fact that he's married. He's already proven he places no value on his marriage, so I'm not going to place more on it than he does.

 

Again, THIS should be the reason. If you cannot say this about the person, then it would be foolish to be in a relationship with that person.

 

Having said that, remember that an affair begins with the breaking of a vow. That kind of foundation for a possible future relationship is shaky at best and usually is an indicator of what may occur. A well known quote is appropriate here:

“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it”. George Santayana

[Spark1111]

Some BS claim they cannot understand why an OW or OM would want someone else's "cheating" spouse, which I guess is the flip side of an OW or OM wondering, "why would a BS want to stay with someone who cheated *on them*?". So rather than upset the apple cart with a possible t/j, I thought I'd start this thread here where I could explain why I, as a fOW, wanted a second-hand "WS", where other OWs or OMs could add their own reasons (those that do; if you don't actually want the WS and are just happy to borrow and return them like a favourite library book, that's also cool) as a public service to those who don't understand.

 

 

So, why did I want a second-hand WS?

 

Firstly, I don't believe that how someone behaves in one situation is necessarily how they will behave in every situation. So I don't buy the "once a cheater, always a cheater" line. I think this is particularly true where they are in a situation of duress, where circumstances compel them to act out of character. Those who are old enough to remember the plane crash in the Andes will recall how the survivors were forced to eat the dead bodies of their fellow passengers in order to survive.

 

They did not go on to become cannibals for the rest of their lives - it was an extreme situation, they did what they needed in order to survive, and when normality returned, they returned to normal. Might they eat human flesh again if they were stranded in another plane crash on another remote mountain range with no other means of survival? No doubt some would; I'm equally sure some others are still so haunted by having broken the taboo that they would rather starve; and I'm sure it's equally so for As.

 

I had seen my fMM in "normal" Rs with others - family who had known him his entire life, friends who saw him in all situations, colleagues who spent every day with him, etc - and I knew that how he was in his M was highly anomalous. It was a situation of duress, not of normality, and as such he acted out of character within its confines. So while I know that a risk exists that, placed in a situation of similar duress, he may respond in a similarly anomalous way, I also know there's equally a chance that his experience of breaking a "taboo" would have sworn him off even considering that option should it arise in the future.

 

Secondly, he has shown by his actions and his orientation, not just his words, that he can be trusted. He took his counselling very seriously, did all the hard work required to understand why he did what he did (and didn't do what he didn't) and took steps to address and resolve the issues. He has become highly self-aware, very emotionally literate and completely committed to doing whatever it takes to ensure the health and strength of the R and the emotional well-being of both the participants. In the same way that reconciling BSs look for signs of commitment, focus, remorse and initiative from their fWS in deciding whether or not to R, I've sought and found that evidence, in spades, and receive it every day.

 

Thirdly, it is often said here that "a man will move mountains to be with the one he loves". Well, when he moves mountains to demonstrate the depth of his love, it would be very unfair if the woman who claimed to love him was not willing to move even a small pile of sand. When he has done so much to show his commitment to me and to our R, the R we both want, it would be churlish of me to make no effort from my side by refusing to allow myself to participate as an equal partner. So I am willing to meet his investment with my own investment. To me, a R that is sustainable is fair and balanced. Both partners need to commit equally, and I'm willing to do that. Love without action is simply words.

 

And fourthly, I want him because of who he is - quite the most wonderful partner I could conceive of. I feel blessed to know him and have him in my life, and my life with him is so much richer than without, in all ways. Given the choice of "having" him or not "having" him, why would I walk away from that?

 

Other OWs /OMs, feel free to add...

 

I, as the fBS, could have written this word for word to describe the anomoly of my H's affair, his actions during it, the hard work that followed upon the discovery of it, and my decision to give him a shot at reconciling.

[Robert]

Let's keep this thread topical of the thread starters opening post please.

 

Anybody can post on this thread and give their opinion as long as it's topical, respectful of the thread starter and not taking pots shots at other posters.

 

Thanks

[threelaurels]

Firstly, I don't believe that how someone behaves in one situation is necessarily how they will behave in every situation. So I don't buy the "once a cheater, always a cheater" line. I think this is particularly true where they are in a situation of duress, where circumstances compel them to act out of character.

 

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Someone who cheats practices "techniques of neutralization" while in the affair. They justify their actions by changing how they see the world. Someone who has had an affair once is more likely to cheat again because they already have a mindset that permits the behavior. They are more easily able to justify having an affair again--especially when the affair resulted in more positive reinforcement than negative.

 

You are correct that behavior depends on the situation. When your MM finds himself stressed/unhappy/etc. with the marriage, there is a higher probability of him engaging in an affair again. He got the positive reinforcement by leaving the unhappiness with his ex-wife and going to happiness with you. When things with you become unhappy, he may run to the arms of someone else and continue the cycle.

 

Then again, he may not. I'm not saying anything specific to your relationship. I am saying that it is statistically more likely that this will happen. There are, of course, outliers.

[LFH]

I think part of the crux of the disconnect and reason I don't understand is this.

 

I would NEVER be able to forgive someone who lied and cheated and betrayed ME. Never.

 

He's always been the same guy to me. I knew what he was doing, what he was capable of. I am well aware of the fact that he's doing those things, but he's not inflicting that hurt on ME, so to me it's just a flaw. Lots of people fall in love with those who do dumb or hurtful things and as long as they aren't doing them TO THEM they can overlook it.

And he's worth more than his flaw to me.

 

To his BS, he changed and broke his vows and did all kinds of hurtful things actively TO her.

 

To me that's the difference.

[Got it]

I do think if someone has cheated on you there is a much higher chance that they will cheat again. I am not saying that to insult. I just know, from my experience, that once you break that "respect" you are more apt to do it again. This does not mean it will transition over to others though it definitely can. One can see it as an acceptable coping mechanism.

 

But I have found, that to do it to one person once, a good number will cross the boundaries again and again (in some element). There is just a prioritizing level that isn't there.

 

But in the same vein, one may learn enough to enforce change and change their coping mechanisms. It really depends on the will, resolve, and frame of mind of the individual and what they prioritize as most important to them.

[BetrayedH]

Some BS claim they cannot understand why an OW or OM would want someone else's "cheating" spouse, which I guess is the flip side of an OW or OM wondering, "why would a BS want to stay with someone who cheated *on them*?". So rather than upset the apple cart with a possible t/j, I thought I'd start this thread here where I could explain why I, as a fOW, wanted a second-hand "WS", where other OWs or OMs could add their own reasons (those that do; if you don't actually want the WS and are just happy to borrow and return them like a favourite library book, that's also cool) as a public service to those who don't understand.

 

 

So, why did I want a second-hand WS?

 

Firstly, I don't believe that how someone behaves in one situation is necessarily how they will behave in every situation. So I don't buy the "once a cheater, always a cheater" line. I think this is particularly true where they are in a situation of duress, where circumstances compel them to act out of character. Those who are old enough to remember the plane crash in the Andes will recall how the survivors were forced to eat the dead bodies of their fellow passengers in order to survive.

 

They did not go on to become cannibals for the rest of their lives - it was an extreme situation, they did what they needed in order to survive, and when normality returned, they returned to normal. Might they eat human flesh again if they were stranded in another plane crash on another remote mountain range with no other means of survival? No doubt some would; I'm equally sure some others are still so haunted by having broken the taboo that they would rather starve; and I'm sure it's equally so for As.

 

I had seen my fMM in "normal" Rs with others - family who had known him his entire life, friends who saw him in all situations, colleagues who spent every day with him, etc - and I knew that how he was in his M was highly anomalous. It was a situation of duress, not of normality, and as such he acted out of character within its confines. So while I know that a risk exists that, placed in a situation of similar duress, he may respond in a similarly anomalous way, I also know there's equally a chance that his experience of breaking a "taboo" would have sworn him off even considering that option should it arise in the future.

 

Secondly, he has shown by his actions and his orientation, not just his words, that he can be trusted. He took his counselling very seriously, did all the hard work required to understand why he did what he did (and didn't do what he didn't) and took steps to address and resolve the issues. He has become highly self-aware, very emotionally literate and completely committed to doing whatever it takes to ensure the health and strength of the R and the emotional well-being of both the participants. In the same way that reconciling BSs look for signs of commitment, focus, remorse and initiative from their fWS in deciding whether or not to R, I've sought and found that evidence, in spades, and receive it every day.

 

Thirdly, it is often said here that "a man will move mountains to be with the one he loves". Well, when he moves mountains to demonstrate the depth of his love, it would be very unfair if the woman who claimed to love him was not willing to move even a small pile of sand. When he has done so much to show his commitment to me and to our R, the R we both want, it would be churlish of me to make no effort from my side by refusing to allow myself to participate as an equal partner. So I am willing to meet his investment with my own investment. To me, a R that is sustainable is fair and balanced. Both partners need to commit equally, and I'm willing to do that. Love without action is simply words.

 

And fourthly, I want him because of who he is - quite the most wonderful partner I could conceive of. I feel blessed to know him and have him in my life, and my life with him is so much richer than without, in all ways. Given the choice of "having" him or not "having" him, why would I walk away from that?

 

Other OWs /OMs, feel free to add...

 

I actually agree with most of this. I do believe people can change significantly such that their BS might trust them and in the same vein, a former AP might trust them. An affair does not have to define a person, a marriage, or a relationsip for life. It's still a risk and sadly for OW, I think very few get to see the kind of introspection by their MM as you described as few even get the benefit of an open relationship with their MM at all.

 

Where you really lost me was the analogy to the crash survivors. In one case, the survivors needed to eat human flesh to survive. In the other, the MM just wanted to eat, well, something else.

[loredo21]

I actually agree with most of this. I do believe people can change significantly such that their BS might trust them and in the same vein, a former AP might trust them. An affair does not have to define a person, a marriage, or a relationsip for life. It's still a risk and sadly for OW, I think very few get to see the kind of introspection by their MM as you described as few even get the benefit of an open relationship with their MM at all.

 

Where you really lost me was the analogy to the crash survivors. In one case, the survivors needed to eat human flesh to survive. In the other, the MM just wanted to eat, well, something else.

 

OH MYYYYY! (in my best George Takei impression)

[stevie_23]

I never view a cheating spouse that you’re in love with (as the OW) as “second hand”, but I guess in that way, one woman’s trash is another woman’s treasure. That may sound hideous and also over generalised, but I guess it’s a way to view the situation. Just because he’s not right for his wife or things have changed between them to get to the place they’re at now, doesn’t mean things wouldn’t be different with you as the OW. Every relationship and situation is different.

[TaintedLuv]

My MM has mentioned this topic a number of times in the past. He always asks me how I could possibly trust him when I know what he's done in the past. Perhaps my logic is skewed but if this was more than just a PA and he uproots his entire life to be with me for real then I trust he's not stupid enough to mess up what we share. Otherwise, he could stay with his W and continue to do what he's been doing.

 

PS I don't want their marriage or anything remotely close to what their life is. I just want him.

Edited March 7, 2013 by TaintedLuv

[canuckprincess]

I don't want someone else's spouse, and I certainly wouldn't want her marriage. I can't understand why anyone would want a marriage like that.

 

I want him.

 

Wanting him trumps the fact that he's married. He's already proven he places no value on his marriage, so I'm not going to place more on it than he does.

 

LFH, beautifully said and I'm in 100 percent agreement with your post.

[Eggplant]

I don't buy the "once a cheater, always a cheater" line. I think this is particularly true where they are in a situation of duress, where circumstances compel them to act out of character.

 

cocorico, I agree with you that people do extreme things in situations of duress. What are the extreme circumstances in your case? Do you believe that it is reasonable for your MM to cheat on his wife?

[White Flower]

 

WF, it is good to see you again!

 

It's good to see you too!

[dreamingoftigers]

It's good to see you too!

 

LOL I said a big "hi" to you too.

 

And thanks for supporting me when I was going through my (long) crisis period.

 

However, that post went "missing."

[White Flower]

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Someone who cheats practices "techniques of neutralization" while in the affair. They justify their actions by changing how they see the world. Someone who has had an affair once is more likely to cheat again because they already have a mindset that permits the behavior. They are more easily able to justify having an affair again--especially when the affair resulted in more positive reinforcement than negative.

 

You are correct that behavior depends on the situation. When your MM finds himself stressed/unhappy/etc. with the marriage, there is a higher probability of him engaging in an affair again. He got the positive reinforcement by leaving the unhappiness with his ex-wife and going to happiness with you. When things with you become unhappy, he may run to the arms of someone else and continue the cycle.

 

Then again, he may not. I'm not saying anything specific to your relationship. I am saying that it is statistically more likely that this will happen. There are, of course, outliers.

 

You obviously haven't been involved in an A because if you had you'd be more likely to say that you'd never go down that road again! The voice of experience is there if you're willing to listen.

 

And the term outliers is vague really. It's probably meant to be a jab, but again, those who learn and grow through experience will excuse it.

[White Flower]

LOL I said a big "hi" to you too.

 

And thanks for supporting me when I was going through my (long) crisis period.

 

However, that post went "missing."

 

Did you see my big reply before it went missing? Has LS changed so much that we're not allowed to miss each other or be glad to see an old friend?

 

In it I stated that I couldn't stay when there was so much fighting and now that I'm back I'll stay as long as it's peaceful enough for me (and everyone else). And here I've already seen censorship when all I've done was promote peace. How sad.

 

Anyway DoT, I've missed you.

[whichwayisup]

Thirdly, it is often said here that "a man will move mountains to be with the one he loves". Well, when he moves mountains to demonstrate the depth of his love, it would be very unfair if the woman who claimed to love him was not willing to move even a small pile of sand. When he has done so much to show his commitment to me and to our R, the R we both want, it would be churlish of me to make no effort from my side by refusing to allow myself to participate as an equal partner. So I am willing to meet his investment with my own investment. To me, a R that is sustainable is fair and balanced. Both partners need to commit equally, and I'm willing to do that. Love without action is simply words.

 

How long is this enough though? When will you eventually want more? A child of your own, to have him laying next to you daily in bed, sharing holidays, birthdays and other celebrations, being a true part of every aspect of each others lives? He can only do so much, move so much sand here..He still is married. If you truly are happy with this, then enjoy it for as long as it lasts. My worry for you is, the D-day and what will happen to you afterwards since you've invested so much.

 

Little shout out to WF!

[White Flower]

 

Little shout out to WF!

Hey WWIU! How are you?