anna121 Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 Is your question a variation of "Is it really true that once a cheater, always a cheater?" I would agree that, if you have a pre-existing relationship with someone who becomes an AP (and you both are attached), there is no reason why your openness and honesty would, necessarily, change so that you could no longer trust each other. The caveat, of course, is that you each have irrefutable proof that, IF circumstances are right, you are capable of gravitating to someone else. I'm fighting a strong attraction to a co-worker. We haven't crossed many boundaries - no physical ones and we've yet to openly acknowledge that we clearly are attracted to each other. Most days, I think that we never will. The thing is, when I indulge in my fantasies and wonder what it would be like to actually be with him, I know that the easy way that he interacts with me would drive me absolutely nuts if he were to do that to someone else while in a rel-ship with me. So, I suppose, learning about this part of his personality - basically, his lack of boundaries - would definitely affect my comfort level in the (pretty much impossible) event that we ever got together.
Author stevie_23 Posted March 6, 2013 Author Posted March 6, 2013 Clearly Im not be clear. The "loss" in the A by being honest is: "I'm not leaving my M nor can I choose you over such should the situation arise. Also, I want to vent to you about my M and life and all - all the while denying you the same. You will always be on the outside looking in - deal?" If both parties are truly honest - the A falls apart (a loss) Yes, but sometimes it's ONLY by both parties being truly honest that an A actually really WORKS. And I DID recommend he leave his marriage, by the way. Because he said he wanted to do that. (by "marriage" I mean relationship and living situation, as he wasn't married for most of our time together). I never suggested he leave our A, because he didn't want to do that either. By him leaving his marriage, it was also to really be with ME. So (1) he never said he WASN'T leaving the marriage, he said he WAS, and (2) he wanted to be with me properly after he'd left the marriage. So why would either of us end the A?
spice4life Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 Clearly Im not be clear. The "loss" in the A by being honest is: "I'm not leaving my M nor can I choose you over such should the situation arise. Also, I want to vent to you about my M and life and all - all the while denying you the same. You will always be on the outside looking in - deal?" If both parties are truly honest - the A falls apart (a loss) I don't see that as a loss because then the honesty gives the gift of choice. If the quoted above is the deal and the person isn't honest about it then the dishonesty creates the loss. The loss would be not having the ability to choose if you want to accept those circumstances or not. 1
Author stevie_23 Posted March 6, 2013 Author Posted March 6, 2013 i don't see that as a loss because then the honesty gives the gift of choice. If the quoted above is the deal and the person isn't honest about it then the dishonesty creates the loss. The loss would be not having the ability to choose if you want to accept those circumstances or not. exactly! :)
LFH Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 HF... you asked.. (it won't let me quote because of the way it was posted) During this "open and honest time", did the married person tell the affair person how he/she dated their spouse, pursued their spouse, got engaged to their spouse, planned a wedding and a future with the spouse and decided to become parents? Did the cheater tell the AP how in love the cheater was with the betrayed spouse? How they loved everything about their spouse? If not, then they weren't being open and honest because once upon a time, when the married cheater was single, the married cheater flirted, dated and made love with the person they are now cheating on. And if they did tell the AP that? Then what? What does that mean then?
Author stevie_23 Posted March 6, 2013 Author Posted March 6, 2013 ALSO, can I just say again in my defense of my “obsession” with cheating, that I never even THOUGHT of my ex and I in terms of us having an “affair” until it ended and I came on here. A lot of my questions and things have come from being somewhat enlightened by other people on this forum. So a lot of this is new to me. I never thought of it all before, so I’m interested in exploring it. I am not living in the past (or trying hard not to anyway), but am trying to apply this new information to past events. That is all.
LFH Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 ALSO, can I just say again in my defense of my “obsession” with cheating, that I never even THOUGHT of my ex and I in terms of us having an “affair” until it ended and I came on here. A lot of my questions and things have come from being somewhat enlightened by other people on this forum. So a lot of this is new to me. I never thought of it all before, so I’m interested in exploring it. I am not living in the past (or trying hard not to anyway), but am trying to apply this new information to past events. That is all. Don't get so "enlightened" that you lose sight of reality. Not everyone is a narcissist, not everyone has low self esteem, not everyone has FOO issues (whatever the heck that is) not each person is characterized by a lot of psychobabble nonsense. A lot of times it's as simple as what it looks like. People make choices, some good, some bad, they hurt one another because they are thoughtless or selfish or self absorbed or all of the above. They need to learn to find their way through all of that. Sometimes, it really is just that simple. 1
Author stevie_23 Posted March 6, 2013 Author Posted March 6, 2013 Ah yes, I’ve already thought of that. I am trying to take on these new perspectives while still keeping somewhat of a level head and keeping sight of the NON black & white nature of my situation. FOO issues? Lol. I don’t know what that is either.
LFH Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 Ah yes, I’ve already thought of that. I am trying to take on these new perspectives while still keeping somewhat of a level head and keeping sight of the NON black & white nature of my situation. FOO issues? Lol. I don’t know what that is either. LOL Family of Origin issues. (I had to look it up the first time I saw it) Basically, your parents got divorced when they "shouldn't have" or they stayed together and shoudl have gotten divorced... or you were an only child and weren't properly socialized like a puppy or something, or you had too many siblings and were lost in the crowd of your home, or you weren't allowed a pet, which kept you from developing emotional bonds, or your mom loved you too much or not enough or you once saw a spider in your house at an impressionable age or... or... or... You lived a life. That's my analysis of FOO issues. 1
spice4life Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 I can understand why "FOO issues" sounds silly in this forum due to the way it is tossed about as a label, but in some cases it applies. Like mine...lol. I never heard the expression either until I start reading here and I'm in therapy! In my case my father is a narcissist (didn't know this until a year ago) and it explains why I have ended up in relationships with emotionally unavailable men. I don't stew on it though...now that I am aware of it I can fix it and move on. Knowing these things helps you understand the choices you've made and then you can correct them. I needed to do A LOT of correcting...lol. 1
Author stevie_23 Posted March 6, 2013 Author Posted March 6, 2013 Heh, well, every single experience we go through shapes and affects and influences us in a way. Sometimes they're too small to affect us much, but they still do. Sometimes we don't notice until later and sometimes they impact on us big time and we're hit in the face with them. And as kids, we don't have as many previous experiences to base further experiences on, so the earlier we experience things, the more significant impact they tend to have on us and we base or build everything else on top of them.
LadyGrey Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 LFH, you know I like you, but as someone who does have FOO issues, this is very insulting to me. Had you survived what I have and many other women here also have, then you wouldn't make light of it. I don't use them as an "excuse" but it helps me to understand where I'm come from and why I've been there and where I'm going. I'm the product of a father who was a serial cheater, a physical abuser, an alcoholic and I'm also the daughter that he molested when I was 14, so don't you tell me or anyone else that this stuff doesn't affect adult choices. For a very smart lady you certainly need to educate yourself on traits that some of these things leave you with. For example, google adult children of alcoholics. Again, I don't use it as an excuse for anything, but for my own understanding. LOL Family of Origin issues. (I had to look it up the first time I saw it) Basically, your parents got divorced when they "shouldn't have" or they stayed together and shoudl have gotten divorced... or you were an only child and weren't properly socialized like a puppy or something, or you had too many siblings and were lost in the crowd of your home, or you weren't allowed a pet, which kept you from developing emotional bonds, or your mom loved you too much or not enough or you once saw a spider in your house at an impressionable age or... or... or... You lived a life. That's my analysis of FOO issues. 2
LFH Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 (edited) LFH, you know I like you, but as someone who does have FOO issues, this is very insulting to me. Had you survived what I have and many other women here also have, then you wouldn't make light of it. I don't use them as an "excuse" but it helps me to understand where I'm come from and why I've been there and where I'm going. I'm the product of a father who was a serial cheater, a physical abuser, an alcoholic and I'm also the daughter that he molested when I was 14, so don't you tell me or anyone else that this stuff doesn't affect adult choices. For a very smart lady you certainly need to educate yourself on traits that some of these things leave you with. For example, google adult children of alcoholics. Again, I don't use it as an excuse for anything, but for my own understanding. I'm not discounting that there ARE real FOO issues. I'm discounting that anything that ever happens gets used as FOO issue for excuses on here. There's a difference between something that is a legitimate reason to cause further issues in life, but apparently everything I say offends someone. I don't need to educate myself. I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse myself. I know PLENTY about how what happens as a kid impacts you later in life. BUT.. if you look at the way non-qualified people toss out all these labels and that MANY do use them AS excuses it IS ridiculous. Which was my point. Be offended if you must, but if you think about it, and you think about everything I've ever said in the past, you know I didn't mean it to be offensive. Is it really just the OW that is expected to have a thicker skin these days? Edited March 6, 2013 by LFH
LadyGrey Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 LFH........it would have made no difference to me who said it, I would still have found it insulting and I would have said so. I think there are many, many women who have issues with self esteem, BS's, OW's, it's universal and well documented. Many, many people have foo issues and some people are narcissists. I dated one, no not xmm. I think your issue is you take offense to generalizations, I get that and sometimes those generalizations are thrown at you personally. It's happened to me to. I understand the frustration with that but yet to go to the other extreme and deny they exist at all is not a healthy prospective, imo. I'm not discounting that there ARE real FOO issues. I'm discounting that anything that ever happens gets used as FOO issue for excuses on here. There's a difference between something that is a legitimate reason to cause further issues in life, but apparently everything I say offends someone. I don't need to educate myself. I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse myself. I know PLENTY about how what happens as a kid impacts you later in life. BUT.. if you look at the way non-qualified people toss out all these labels and that MANY do use them AS excuses it IS ridiculous. Which was my point. Be offended if you must, but if you think about it, and you think about everything I've ever said in the past, you know I didn't mean it to be offensive. Is it really just the OW that is expected to have a thicker skin these days?
Got it Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 LFH........it would have made no difference to me who said it, I would still have found it insulting and I would have said so. I think there are many, many women who have issues with self esteem, BS's, OW's, it's universal and well documented. Many, many people have foo issues and some people are narcissists. I dated one, no not xmm. I think your issue is you take offense to generalizations, I get that and sometimes those generalizations are thrown at you personally. It's happened to me to. I understand the frustration with that but yet to go to the other extreme and deny they exist at all is not a healthy prospective, imo. I'm confused, I went back and reread what LFH wrote and I don't see where she said they didn't exist. LG - I think her post triggered you more than what is actually written.
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