phillygirl Posted March 4, 2013 Posted March 4, 2013 (edited) I have lurked around LS for quite some time now, and have decided to finally post my issue, in hopes of gaining some perspective from those who have either had a similar experience, or can give me support as I attempt to navigate the murky waters of my own romantic confusion. Me: married, 3 children (21, 7 and 4--latter two are from my current husband). While I do love my husband, I have found at times, that my love for him has become less "sexually intimate" (partially initiated by him) and more"nurturing." Ok, I'm about to get all "Freud" here, so bear with me for a moment... His mother is probably the least nurturing woman I know. I observe her interaction with my children, which often seem overaly formal and emotionally awkward. I am also vehement that her interactions with them are supervised (of course she's had issues with this since day 1-- oh well!) She also sent him a scathing letter telling him that "you love her [meaning me] more than you've ever loved me!" This totally corroborated my husband's lack of nurturing from his mother he's told me about. Going forward, many of the women he's dated were mostly sexual conquests. He's a physician, very charming, smart and charismatic so finding women to bedwas a no-brainer for him. Most of his prior relationships lasted no more than 3months. When we met, I was less interested in his academic and professional accomplishments, and was more interested in knowing "the man" behind the titles and letters.... ---------------------------------------------- When we started dating, sex was amazing and often. When things appeared as if they were progressing I noticed that he's become a bit uncomfortable sexually, and more open emotionally. After the birth of our first child together, he cried...and said "I've never seen a woman so beautiful!" At that point, intimacy died. I was instantly morphed into the"queen-mother- blah blah blah...." He'd go weeks without asking me for sex, always using as an excuse "You are so busy with the kids and being a wife, that I don't want to BOTHER you with sex." Then he'd comment on how loving I was to his children; and how he'd also longed for that. So, my role shifted to "caring and nurturing him" and not being a full sexual being with needs and desires. I got tons of flowers and gifts.... and little sex. Then I started to find porn all over the house. I was offended--not because I don't like it--but because I OFFERED to do the things in the movies he watched, yet he was repulsed but the thought of doing these things with me. Then I realized I'd married a reformed player with Madonna/Whore issues. Swell...*rolls eyes* 18 months later, I was pregnant again, and the sexual chasm increased. Fast-forward to now. I have mentioned divorce 2 times in our marriage and both times, he's told me that it was simply my "stress, parental obligations, et al" and NOT that I really wanted to end our marriage. He absolutely REFUSED (to this day) to admit that we a problem. He has masterfully crafted a very convincing narrative, which tends to point to our external life stressors (long hours in the hospital, being overwhelmed with parenting duties, et al) and NOT that we have reached the end of our rope. Now I have found myself attracted to another man. I have been with my husband for almost 10 years, and I've had "attractions"; yet NEVER like this! While I have NOT cheated on my husband, I do find myself becoming increasing attracted to this man--and he to me. I do realize that what I'm feeling for this other man is most likely a reflection of my discontent with my husband, but the feelings are very strong, my feelings for my husband have not changed in years---and I'm extremely conflicted. Also, I do NOT see this man as a "replacement" nor a "fix" to my marriage. I'm under no delusion that he's my "hero." Yet, my feeling for him are increasing, and my thoughts of him insanely consuming. Questions: 1- How do you end a marriage when the other partner absolutely refuses toadmit that the marriage is dissolved? 2- Is it possible to fall in love with someone else, while having significant marital challenges or is it always a diversion? I know this is a lot, but I'm just looking for some perspective.... Peace--- Edited March 4, 2013 by phillygirl Formatting issues
stuckinuk Posted March 4, 2013 Posted March 4, 2013 For question 1, I don't know the answer to that one... I wish I did though as I'm in the same situation, in the sense that I'm in a marriage that I don't want to be in and can't seem to get myself out of. For question 2, I think that it's very possible for someone to fall in love with someone else while having significant marital challenges. I don't think people can be painted with a single brush in that some could never fall in love with someone else no matter how bad the marriage, while others could easily do so. I personally think it partially depends if one has completely detached and given up on their marriage. I think in those situations it becomes a little more possible than in a situation where someone is just confused and doesn't know how to fix their marriage.
Minnie09 Posted March 4, 2013 Posted March 4, 2013 1) You say "that's it I'm done, because of a), b), c) ..." and you just do it. 2) you can become infatuated during any stage of your M, if you let it happen....it happens because people like the extra attention they're getting, and the feeling they experience while being in that infatuation stage....loving someone is a whole different ball game, it's a choice, a conscious decision, a commitment....... The OM might or might not turn out to be the partner you imagine or need. The question is: are you ready to jump out of that M into something unknown that might give you and your children an better or worse life? It's a risk you have to assess for yourself. Is the M bad enough for you to leave? Is MC an option? Do you see a future with your h in the picture? How's the M in general, except for the lack of physical intimacy? If sex is the only cause of your dissatisfaction, don't you think you could work in that?
Mr. Lucky Posted March 4, 2013 Posted March 4, 2013 2- Is it possible to fall in love with someone else, while having significant marital challenges or is it always a diversion? Working through the issues in a marriage, especially with children and the potential of divorce is a full-time task that requires all your attention. So is building a healthy relationship with a new partner. Overlapping the two is never a good idea and will only keep your from doing either successfully... Mr. Lucky
Author phillygirl Posted March 5, 2013 Author Posted March 5, 2013 Thank you each for the reply. I do wish to address a couple of notes: 1- I do realize that the two issues I presented are mutually exclusive. I have NO INTENTIONS on acting on one without first dealing with the other. 2- The issue with D in my situation is that I do not wish to leave my home, nor my children. Primarily because I'm the primary care provider for them, and he is a bit more financially flexible than I am. I know this reads bit selfish, but this is the reality. Urghhhh!
Cali408 Posted March 5, 2013 Posted March 5, 2013 What makes you think you won't get everything? You have all the leverage in the world. Go get a free consultation from a lawyer and mention it to him. If you still get the same response, file papers. Don't leave your husband for someone else. leave because you want out.
GuyInLimbo Posted March 5, 2013 Posted March 5, 2013 1) If sex is the only cause of your dissatisfaction, don't you think you could work in that? I think her H has made it clear he's done in that area. If he refuses to acknowledge there is a problem, much less work on it with her, what else is she supposed to do? 1
Mr. Lucky Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 The issue with D in my situation is that I do not wish to leave my home, nor my children. Primarily because I'm the primary care provider for them, and he is a bit more financially flexible than I am. I know this reads bit selfish, but this is the reality. This is time to be, if not selfish, at least smart about how any proposed course of action affects you and your kids. The financial implications are real, life-altering and long lasting. So I understand your concerns. Nothing wrong with hanging in there as long as it takes to things squared away... Mr. Lucky 1
Author phillygirl Posted March 6, 2013 Author Posted March 6, 2013 Thank you so much for the reply... You are absolutely correct: I must think about the long-term financial and emotional impact on me and my kids. Which is why this OM is a separate issue. Any relationship with him will be strictly platonic at this point...and if I feel as if I can not remain comfortably within that realm, I will go NC until my marriage is dealt with. As I wrote earlier, my marriage has been in the pits for sometime now. This man and I met in September '12. In addition, I have an earned doctorate. I mention this not to be a braggard, yet to demonstrate that I do have earning potential. I consider myself lucky, in that regard. I have worked full-time and currently teach part-time, yet opted to care for my children, given the dismal state of early childhood education. Now that they are older and in a good private school, I have decided to go back to work full-time. As a matter of fact, I have an interview for a new position on Thursday of this week. The outcome of that interview will serve as the catalyst for my next move (wish me luck)... My plan is to do NOTHING until I am 1) working full-time, 2) saved at least enough to afford living expenses for 2 months, and 3) met with an attny to best secure myself as the custodial parent (w/joint custody) for my kids. I know that he will most likely NOT fight me for custodial, but I can predict that the parrots (his mother and sister) will be churping quite loudly with tons of unsolicited advice. He currently sleeps in the guest room. Although I want him to move out, I do realize that I can not just kick him out of his own house. So....I am encouraging him to go out more, do whatever he wishes, and not fighting him on a whole lot anymore. I'm just keeping the peace. And limiting my time with him. In addition, I'm starting to notice subtle changes in his behavior. Yet I have to admit, they seem a bit trite. It's as if "I'll go through the motions for a while until she cools off" rather than, "we have a major issue, and this requires real work, or I WILL lose my wife!!!" He's denied me a D twice; and said he'd NEVER sign papers. I feel trapped
Mr. Lucky Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 As a matter of fact, I have an interview for a new position on Thursday of this week. The outcome of that interview will serve as the catalyst for my next move (wish me luck)... Well, good luck !!! He's denied me a D twice; and said he'd NEVER sign papers. I feel trapped Does your state not have a notice provision (30 days in many states)? While it takes longer, you don't need his cooperation to divorce... Mr. Lucky
Author phillygirl Posted March 6, 2013 Author Posted March 6, 2013 Don't leave your husband for someone else. leave because you want out. Agreed! As written, this is not my exit strategy. This gentleman is a completely seperate issue; and I'd never potentially screw up a future relationship with him (after D) or at mininum, a good friendship using him as a scapegoat for my lackluster marriage. Thanks for the advice tho--- be well...
Author phillygirl Posted March 6, 2013 Author Posted March 6, 2013 (edited) If sex is the only cause of your dissatisfaction, don't you think you could work in that? Honestly, I WISH my issues where that overly simplistic. Really I do. Yet, when I spend >$100 on VSecret and sex toys, which garner not a second look or worse, joking and playful laughter, I don't see where there is much more "work" to do. To address the 800lbs. gorilla in the room, when women mention "sexual chilliness" from a partner: I am about 5'6" and 130 lbs. After 3 kids, my body pretty much looks the same as it did when I was 17 yo. Now why things are a bit less "smooth", my physical appearance hasn't changed much. As a matter of fact, he finds me very attractive, and admits that he will often masturbate thinking about me. I say this as a primer for the obvious next set of questions: "have you gained weight, lost your physical attractiveness, et al., which might explain his sexual disinterest?" No. I have not. The irony of trying to "look sexy" for a sexually disinterested partner, is that there is a latent effect: OTHER MEN NOTICE YOU. Which, unintentionally opens up a new set of challeges... Edited March 6, 2013 by phillygirl
Author phillygirl Posted March 6, 2013 Author Posted March 6, 2013 Does your state not have a notice provision (30 days in many states)? While it takes longer, you don't need his cooperation to divorce... Yes, but it's a pretty lenghty and drawn-out process. It's usually for partners who have abandoned the M, have serious mental incapacity, or convicted of a "crime of moral ineptitude (eg. rape, murder, et al)." If a partner simply doesn't wish to sign (and there is no fault), then the court will usually mandate counseling--especially if children are involved. BTW, he's supposed to have set up MC for us through his EAP--yeah, that hasn't happened yet... Surprised? No. Trust me, I'm doing my research....and what I'm finding is pretty dismal...
GuyInLimbo Posted March 6, 2013 Posted March 6, 2013 Honestly, I WISH my issues where that overly simplistic. Really I do. Yet, when I spend >$100 on VSecret and sex toys... I just want to applaud you on this. You have NO IDEA how many men out there would give their left nut for a woman who would put at least SOME effort into being sexy and adventurous... Really. 1
Author phillygirl Posted March 6, 2013 Author Posted March 6, 2013 (edited) I just want to applaud you on this. You have NO IDEA how many men out there would give their left nut for a woman who would put at least SOME effort into being sexy and adventurous... Really. Yeah, this is what my friend (the potential OM) said! He's a bit older than me (55), divorced and was SHOCKED when I told him this. He was likewise shocked when I told him that my husband doesn't like for me to give him oral nor do anal--because--afterall, "Queen-mother-nubian-blah blah blahs" don't do those things...and he doesn't like it. [please don't laugh too loudly ] Yet, these acts were peppered all thoughout the plethora of porn I found hidden around the house. So apparently, he's not THAT turned off by it. At this point, my friend suggested that we change the subject, as he would have a difficult time standing and walking out of the diner in his condition. He also stated if his xW would have been down for half of that, he'd probably still be married, and wouldn't have had an A. *sigh* Yeah....not that overly simplistic. Edited March 7, 2013 by phillygirl
GuyInLimbo Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 Yeah, this is what my friend (the potential OM) said! He's a bit older than me (55), divorced and was SHOCKED when I told him this. He was likewise shocked when I told him that my husband doesn't like for me to give him oral nor do anal Please excuse me, while I slam my head into a wall.... How do you not like that??? And, again, some of us crave a woman who will at least enjoy giving lots of oral. I hope there are plenty more of you out there. lol
Oberfeldwebel Posted March 7, 2013 Posted March 7, 2013 It is unfortunate that he cannot see what he has right in front of him and probably won't figure it out until it is too late. It is not relevant that he won't give you a divorce, the judge is who grants divorces, you don't need your husbands permission to file. What I would recommend is that you lay out a plan for you and he can decide to join or not. You already know that you need a job, a separate bank account, consult with an attorney to determine your legal rights. Next I would sit him down and lay out the plan and tell him every thing that you told us. Let him know here is a plan for moving forward, for example counselling, date nights, intimacy, sex, etc. If he does not want to participate, then you will have no other option than to proceed legally. Don't argue with him, it is not a debate, it is an informational briefing as to what you are going to do....period. I don't think he will do anything until pushed to do so. It is unfortunate and so unnecessary for this relationship to end this way. Also beware of OM, you are obviously a desirable woman and he may just be trying to get in your knickers. You tell him all these things about husband that you don't like and he knows exactly how to respond to entice you into a relationship with him. Bottom line, resolve one relationship before starting a new one.
Author phillygirl Posted March 8, 2013 Author Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) Please excuse me, while I slam my head into a wall.... Yeah, that's a head [no pun intended] scratcher, for me also. But oh well.... This is why I'm here on LS. I need perspective: if anything, you gentlemen have provided a great deal of insight to this situation. And for this, I am thankful. What I would recommend is that you lay out a plan for you and he can decide to join or not. You already know that you need a job, a separate bank account, consult with an attorney to determine your legal rights. I am meeting with an Attny. Monday. In addition, I have both a seperate checking and savings account (which I am now aggressively placing money into.) Today I had an interview, which I feel very optimistic about. Also beware of OM, you are obviously a desirable woman and he may just be trying to get in your knickers. You tell him all these things about husband that you don't like and he knows exactly how to respond to entice you into a relationship with him. Bottom line, resolve one relationship before starting a new one. Yes, sir! But, I do wish to address the level of trust, disclosure and potential risk of vulnerability with the OM: I get it. Thank you for confirming that I need to always remain mindful that in my need for support from OM, I might be inadvertantly opening a can of worms... As I've written, I have NO INTENTIONS to pursue anything with this man until the ink is dry. Edited March 8, 2013 by phillygirl
imtooconfused Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 phillygirl, I came here after reading your other thread, but I wanted to comment on something here first. I am a believer that our society took a small step back when they let (pretty much forced) men to be in the birthing room. Speaking as a man, it is an absolute wonder to see the birth of your own child first hand especially because of the miracle that it is. And the man certainly gains a huge amount of respect for what a woman goes through in delivering a baby. Those are all positive things that result from the father being present. However... Men are HUGELY visual, and being present to WATCH the birth changes the mental dynamics that a man has for his partner's body. Sure, a man can be intellectually aware that his wife is a "baby maker," but the visual memory of his own wife going through childbirth which gets implanted into his mind cements the concept very strongly. As a result, it takes time for a man to get beyond thinking of their wife as a mother and think of her as a sexual partner again, some men more time than others. In your case, it might just be that he still hasn't gotten past the fact that the woman bits that he was so attracted to were also his kids home for 9 months, no matter how hard you have tried to be attractive and sexy to him. Will he every come around? It's really hard to say but I believe with the proper counseling, there is hope. Is it worth it for you to try? It sounds like from your other post that you do feel it is worth it.
Author phillygirl Posted March 8, 2013 Author Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) Thanks for the perspective. Yet, I can ensure you that experiencing birth is a far more traumatic experience for the "birther." Birth is scary, painful, surreal, beautiful and vulnerable. Why wouldn't I want my husband there? Also, intimacy is essential to maintaining a healthy relationship. So why wouldn't I want that also? There shouldn't be a choice. Unless this distinction exists within the mind of that person who can't view his wife as both mother an lover. This existed WAY before when husbands were anxiously pacing the waiting room floors. While I can go with this, my issues began BEFORE the babes descended from my pubes. And I can not tell you how many times and for how long we've "worked" on this. Ironically, women are never allowed to throw up our hands when our man's midsection becomes a bit rotund--why are men the only ones "visual?" Also, as ADULTS it is incumbent among us that we remove ourselves from "fantasy island" and engage in relationships grounded in reality. Unfortunately, this chapter has closed. Now I just need to execute my exit strategy. Be well. Edited March 8, 2013 by phillygirl
imtooconfused Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 phillygirl, I am sorry you took my post so negatively. That was not my intention. Your original post seemed to indicate the problem began after children but now you bring up the point that the problem began before. I am sorry to cause confusion. But most importantly, I want to clear up the confusion about body image. My post was not to say that men should be excused for their reaction to the physical changes to their wives' bodies. But rather I wanted to point out that some men can't get over the fact that the vag*** belonged to the child for a time and that they lose interest in sex after seeing a baby come out of her "pubes." This may be relevant to others facing a similar situation. That has nothing to do with weight gain and that's a separate topic completely. In return, I wish you well.
Author phillygirl Posted March 8, 2013 Author Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) phillygirl, I am sorry [that the words i wrote were] negative[..]. That was not my intention. [sic] In return, I wish you well. No worries...there is often quite a bit lost in translation on message boards. Also, understand my edits reflect what happened, intentions are subjective. Edited March 8, 2013 by phillygirl
Minnie09 Posted March 8, 2013 Posted March 8, 2013 I'm not sure what to think of your new OM in the picture. Especially if he's a new acquaintance, it's somewhat inappropriate to speak to him about sexual techniques and such. No judgement, but I find it odd that you would reveal such information to a male friend that hasn't even been your friend for that long. Be careful here, as he also seems to get off on it.* Yeah, it's strange how some men are immune to their wives' advances, but get overly stimulated by porn. That's a wiring error in their brains I think, reinforced by their upbringing and the different types of women in their lives. I wouldn't put up with it either, as it seems to be a lost cause.* Whether you want to believe it or not, the OM plays a major role in this. You seem to be involved at least emotionally enough to have him build your self esteem. That way, exiting an unsatisfactory M is easier. I don't blame you, but you gotta admit it to yourself and others, that he's your jumping board into a new life. I'm sure the attention is doing a lot for you right now, after decades of being sexually neglected, and the fact that you have the upper hand in this new relationship makes it even more inspiring. I hope he stays interested and isn't just a flash in the pan. I don't know if he's a player and how many times he's been married and why he got divorced, but read the signs. I generally don't trust men (and women for that matter) if they get involved with someone under the friendship disguise, while they are still in a different relationship and struggling. He might just play you and you'll wake up one day and he's gone. I'm glad you're trying to make it work for YOU, without him in the picture, and I hope you'll be successful at doing just that. The attention feels good, but don't put all your eggs in one basket. Actually, don't put ANY eggs in this guy's basket at all right now. Put all of them in your own basket and don't rely on him for attention.
Author phillygirl Posted March 8, 2013 Author Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) I'm not sure what to think of your new OM in the picture. Especially if he's a new acquaintance, it's somewhat inappropriate to speak to him about sexual techniques and such. No judgement, but I find it odd that you would reveal such information to a male friend that hasn't even been your friend for that long. Be careful here, as he also seems to get off on it.* QUOTE] Thanks so much for the asthetic. Often, I will admit, that we can not easily see what others can, when our stories are told. Ironically, I have spoken with my friend, recently and informed him that I need to take a hiatus on our friendship at this time. I do need clarity. While it feels good to vent (my purpose was mostly to be heard, and not have an ego-stroking session), I can understand how the subject matter can be a bit...well, stimulating. But, I don't see how this is any different than discussing issues such as domestic violence, addiction or other issues that might surface in a marriage. But, I did spend a great deal of my time in another country, where sexuality wasn't as taboo as it is here. So I get it. Yet--and I state this again--this issue and my desire to end my marriage did predate my friendship with him. Also, I have no intentions to pursue a R with OM until I am done with my M; nor do I see him as my exit strategy. While I do have an attraction for him; I'm a bit more saavy than to assume that he will be my "knight in shining armor." At this point, he's a good friend. Nothing more, nothing less. What happens later, is all pretense. I have no idea. And, is mutually exclusive to my M. Quite honestly, I'm preparing for my new life...alone, with my children and co-PARENTING with my STBXH. Edited March 8, 2013 by phillygirl
Author phillygirl Posted March 8, 2013 Author Posted March 8, 2013 Yeah, it's strange how some men are immune to their wives' advances, but get overly stimulated by porn. That's a wiring error in their brains I think, reinforced by their upbringing and the different types of women in their lives. I wouldn't put up with it either, as it seems to be a lost cause.* Our second attempt at MC revealed this. H was advised to go to IC to address his issues around sexuality. He never went. This was in 2008. It does feel like a lost cause. And indeed wrecks the self-esteem of the woman who love these men. It's hard. I do love him. Which is why I haven't walked away... Until now. Arrgh!!!!!!
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