Do you trust your MM or MW?

[MissBee]

People tend to trust those whom they have romantic feelings for, whether or not the person is in fact trustworthy is another thing entirely.

 

As we see everyday, trusting someone doesn't render them trustworthy. All it means is that we trust them. Sometimes the trusting is based on ignoring flags and wishful thinking and other times it was careful and made sense.

 

I trusted my AP in a general sense. In that he didn't have me on edge, I felt safe with him, I didn't think he was an all around unscrupulous person. However, did I have the belief that he never lied to me? No. I knew he probably did/would about certain things and mostly by omission. I don't think he was an all around liar, but had to omit or downplay because of the situation. Did I believe that because he was lying to his SO by default he had to tell me the truth? No. I don't get that logic. There is no logical reason why a MM lying to his wife is compelled to tell the truth to the OW. It isn't some immutable law of physics of psychology lol. Some people lie to everyone (including themselves and when lying to one's self, you can't tell ANYONE the truth, as you yourself haven't even admitted it) or they may have a bestfriend or forum they admit all their feelings to. But there is no formula which says that lying to wife = OW must get truth.

 

Within the context of an A I chose to accept the fact that he was lying to his SO. But, as human nature would have it, I was very uncertain of how I'd receive him if all of a sudden we were to be together in the open. I had lots of questions about his trustworthiness and whether or not cheating was in his character or it was truly an anomalous occurrence.

[LadyGrey]

One either lies or they don't and if they lie, they are liars. It's really that simple.

 

However, I see your reasoning, (though I don't agree with it) you excuse your mm's lies to his wife because you buy into the theory that he is protecting his wife and he isn't ready to leave yet. However most don't agree that he is protecting his wife, he may honestly feel that way, but I tend to cut through the bs and I think he is protecting himself and his marriage and you shouldn't discount that you remain in the same place you've been now for years, the ow. Obviously you don't see it that way.

 

In the end.....nothing changes and justifications/rationalizations shouldn't make it OK for you or any other ow, unless that is all you want is being an ow. However you've said many times you want more but yet you don't draw any lines, you just remain what I would call stuck.

 

 

 

That's fine, I'm okay with you asking the question. After all we are here to discuss and try to understand where the others are coming from.

 

There is more than one perspective to look at things. Part of it is that I am from a different culture. I don't view these things as you do. As an example, my friend who recently had her SO of many years leave her for another woman, today sent me an encouraging note on my relationship with Neo. We are much less judgmental when it comes to love. We understand how the power of love overrides other concerns.

 

"Cheaters" is to me an inappropriate terminology when it comes to infidelity. I'd rather use that term when it comes to a test in highschool. I do use it in lack of better terminology for a serial cheater, as I in that case consider the trait more engrained in the personality of the WS.

 

I would not categorize people into Christians and non-Christians, just like I wouldn't use the words atheist or heathen, as all those terms are viewing the people who are not Christian from a Christian perspective.

 

I may use the word thief if it was someone who was consistently committing criminal acts of stealing.

 

Overall I think categorizing people tend to keep them stuck in that mentality. A WS who is having a one-time love affair may never do it again and should not be labeled a cheater or a liar IMO. That makes it stick and also makes it seem impossible to remedy.

 

When it comes to liars - non-liars, as I have illustrated, a WS may well be very honest in most circumstances of his life, in fact the only reason why he is now lying is to protect his spouse, and to then label him a liar is way wrong IMO. He may be more honest in all other contexts than most people are. The WS are very often the men who are too nice, too dutiful, and therefore have trouble ending the marriage. I can't see it as in any way helpful to call these men liars. It gives a very skewed picture of their true personality.

[jwi71]

Since you know and may have heard firsthand that your MM (or MW) has told some rather tall tales to excuse him or her for not being home at a particular time, does it make you feel differently about his or her credibility?

 

One would think so yet it does not.

And I think its because everyone is special. And because everyone is special - the "tall tale" is less about the WS ability to deceive and MORE about "Look what he does to be with me" (because I'm special).

 

Does it make you wonder about the excuses or stories he or she gives you for not being with you?

 

No. The AP knows that time will be budgeted and that the M will take precedence over the A (usually). Meaning, the WS has a built in not-to-be-questioned excuse of the M or the W or, usually, the kids.

 

Can you completely trust him or her, or do you think you want to trust and need to simply forget that he or she was or is capable of being dishonest with a very convincing tone?

 

I don't think any AP fully trusts the WS - A's have a tendency to erode trust over time.

I often see lots of manipulation and/or posturing because of lack of trust between AP's in these threads.

 

Thoughts?

 

Its the special theory of relativity.

We are all special - but the way(s) in which we feel special is relative to the role we play in the A - be it AP, WS or BS. And THAT is what keeps people there.

 

Special.

 

(not really)

[LadyGrey]

In that case I believe that we have to conclude that just about 100% of the earth's population are liars. Or are you telling me you never told/tell a lie?

 

Yes I have been a liar in the past however I strive to not be in my present life, although I'm sure I'm guilty of telling what one calls white lies. ex........yes I like that shirt, yes your hair looks good.

 

So yes most people are liars, present company included.......and yes some lies are worse than others such as the ones that keep people in the dark and uninformed of their own choices.

[ThatJustHappened]

I wouldn't necessarily categorize someone into either a liar or a non-liar either..telling little white lies to avoid hurting someone's feelings is fairly innocent, but if you are telling huge, ongoing, and potentially life-shattering lies to someone important in your life..you are a liar. Plain and simple. And married cheaters by definition are liars..if the wife knew and/or approved of his cheating, it wouldn't be cheating, it would be an open marriage.

 

Innocent until proven guilty right? Well a cheater has already been proven guilty of lying. He's already shown that he's willing and able to maintain those lies to his wife long term. So how can the OW prove that her married man isn't lying to her unless she actually catches him in the lie? She can't.

[cocorico]

So how can the OW prove that her married man isn't lying to her unless she actually catches him in the lie? She can't.

 

I could. I did.

 

There is a myth that the only source an OW has is the "lying" MM himself. Actually, most OWs know how to triangulate if they need to check up on something (after all, all OWs are company owners and top-level managers and skilled professionals with high degrees of discretion, as another thread illustrated ) even if they don't always feel the need to do so.

[skylarblue]

Just a few thoughts to put out there...

 

Philosophically and rhetorically speaking: What is trust? If you don't trust someone 100%, is that really trust? Does trust mean 100% in every aspect and/or without reasoning or doubt, or does it only apply to aspects where a person deems relevant/significant? Can "trust" truly exist when there is the factor of possibility (meaning technically something could occur or could have occurred no matter how small or unlikely or even if it never happened at all) or is it only related to by the probability? Under what conditions is trust gained, and if it can be lost does that mean it didn't/doesn't really exist? How can trust be assured, and if it can't how is it trust?

 

IMO trust just an existential factor of mankind. It exists as a concept of individual/societal/collective thoughts that's also subjective to one's personal experience and/or involvement with and the notion of what is acceptable (individually or collectively) under certain circumstances. Trust is simply the personal confidence that one person has put in another in whatever particular area(s) and/or circumstance(s). Although the concept of trust seems so general, it is a very intimate and vulnerable emotion (and I'm not talking simply in the terms of Rs) and factors that relate to trust may not always be seen/understood by the outsider.

 

What is the difference between the OW that trusts MM, and the W that trusts him after dday? If he cheated in the first place, was he even a "trustworthy" man to began with or was the W with the same type of character that the OW supposedly is now, even though he was faithful then.

[stevie_23]

Yes I have been a liar in the past however I strive to not be in my present life, although I'm sure I'm guilty of telling what one calls white lies. ex........yes I like that shirt, yes your hair looks good.

 

So yes most people are liars, present company included.......and yes some lies are worse than others such as the ones that keep people in the dark and uninformed of their own choices.

 

Do you think it’s easier to be fairly honest in your everyday life if you’re NOT in any kind of intimate relationship?

[LadyGrey]

Do you think it’s easier to be fairly honest in your everyday life if you’re NOT in any kind of intimate relationship?

 

Your question confuses me......but I'll take a stab at it.

 

Although I'm not in a intimate romantic relationship, I do have intimate relationships with friends and family, so it's as I said, I strive to be honest, with the exception of the rare white lie to keep from hurting someones feelings.

 

 

If/when I get into a romantic relationship again, it will be difficult for me to be completely open and honest and not omit certain information. I'm not a liar in that I just pull stuff out of my ass, but I have been known to omit or show myself in a more flattering light. It will be very difficult for me to be vulnerable in a romantic setting, actually I'm not sure that I can.

[stevie_23]

Well, I was just curious because I find when you’re deeply involved with someone romantically, things can get complicated. The white lies about “simple” things like whether you like your partner’s friends or family may become more frequent and other such things that if you told the truth about may cause problems in the relationship.

 

If your feelings begin to change for your partner, you may keep more things from them as you notice a certain distance growing, even if you don’t want this to be happening. You may not know how to discuss certain things honestly anymore…

 

Feelings of that other significant person become more important (as opposed to NOT having someone there to consider their feelings as much) and sometimes that pressure can cause more lies, either large or small.

 

And yes, when you are with someone new in an intimate / romantic, it CAN be hard to show yourself in ALL lights, not always flattering ones. Would you be more inclined to not be with someone at all unless you DID feel you would be able to show ALL of yourself?

[spice4life]

I have been reading through the theads and this is an excellent question. I meant to say this before when reading your posts...you are GREAT man James. Your dedication to your wife is astounding. You should be VERY proud of yourself! Everyone reading in this forum should really take notice of your integrity because that is what it's all about. CHEERS to you!

[ThatJustHappened]

I could. I did.

 

There is a myth that the only source an OW has is the "lying" MM himself. Actually, most OWs know how to triangulate if they need to check up on something (after all, all OWs are company owners and top-level managers and skilled professionals with high degrees of discretion, as another thread illustrated ) even if they don't always feel the need to do so.

 

You could be the smartest person in the universe and someone could still lie to you and get away with it. You have no proof that your man has never lied to you.

[spice4life]

You could be the smartest person in the universe and someone could still lie to you and get away with it. You have no proof that your man has never lied to you.

 

Can't you just STOP the negativity for ONE night? Cocorico has more than proven that she knows what is going on in her life.

 

Good night!

[WakingUp]

From the moment xMM cheated on his W, he lost all "credibility" with me. So, did I feel I could trust him 100%? No. I felt he was capable of anything because he was 1)cheating on his W 2)the manner in which he did it 3)he had no guilt. Did I trust him at all? I used to say yes, but only as much as I feel a MM can be trusted which is with a grain of salt. I wouldn't have been surprised (disappointed, yes) if everything I'd believed of him was a lie. It's just my mentality of the typical cheating MM. Expect anything.

 

It's not that I trusted xMM as a whole or in the typical meaning of trust (i really don't trust anyone 100% in every capacity) as much as I gave him the benefit of the doubt that certain things he said were true or believed they were true. I know he's lied/exaggerated about things to me. I know he's been truthful about things to me. Do I believe a MM can be honest? Yes. Do I believe some MM have lived up to the trust that was put in them? Yes. Do I believe a cheating (meaning hidden/in secret from the W) MM is trustworthy? No.

 

There are times when I made conscious decisions to believe (again meaning deciding to give him/his words the benefit of doubt) and then came to the realization/analysis that it wasn't true. There are times where I never believed him one iota from the start. However, for a long time none of this was relevant, cared about, mattered, and/or addressed. It was just analyzed, noted, and categorically stored. Regardless of whether I found the behavior as appropriate or not, or truthful or not, I accepted it, but that doesn't mean I was buying it.

 

I used to say I believed xMM because he had no reason to lie to me, even though I knew and felt he's lied to me before (both in insignificant and significant ways), but he did have reason to lie to me. It doesn't mean he did in every/most aspects or he even had to lie, but I'm sure in his mind he had to lie. I'm know he behaved at points in the same manner he behaved with his W (particularly using manipulation to keep the M intact). I know he used same/similar tactic on me when he felt our R was in danger. Why would he lie when he didn't have to, like he had to with his W? Because for him it was not just situational. A certain amount of deception is guaranteed towards the W, yes. However, it's the person's traits/tendencies that will ultimately motivate their behavior, not the situation. xMM had demonstrated (through his treatment to his W during the A) that he was not opposed to using deception to benefit him when deemed necessary with little/no regard to other party involved. The situation (the M vs the A) only implied the level, type, and frequency of lying he would have to do, not the parameters.

 

This sums it up perfectly!

[WakingUp]

skylar blue... you nailed it

[ThatJustHappened]

Can't you just STOP the negativity for ONE night? Cocorico has more than proven that she knows what is going on in her life.

 

Good night!

 

There's a big difference between negativity and just plain reality. It doesn't just apply to her, it applies to everyone. She just happens to be the one talking at the moment.

 

Hope you slept well!

[Pierre]

A priori most OWs and OMs trust.

 

Otherwise, why be involved in a romantic affair full of ILYs? Furthermore, the average OW and OM tend to be innocent and naive and this facilitates the trusting. The stories the OWs write are incredible and make you wonder about how naive some folks in love are.

 

To me the issue of trust is moot unless the wandring spouse leaves the marriage or is on an exit affair. If the wandering spouse is not in an exit affair the issue of trusting the cheater is an oxymoron.