Love; is it really all that?

[waterwoman]

1 Corinthians 13:4-13

"Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails;..."

 

Wow! Now that is pretty amazing isn't it?

 

Problem is I don't think I have ever felt that way about anyone - I'm not a saint. Maybe about my children some of the time - my love for them is the the most unconditional love I have ever felt. But even for them I have my moments I don't think that makes me a monster - just normal.

 

So if that is the best kind of love what kinds of love are described on here? LS gives me the distinct impression that loves can make you cruel, selfish, crazy, destructive and vindictive

 

BS slagging off the AP. After d-day demanding that the OW/OM is thrown under the bus. Refusing to forgive or demanding endless sacrifices in order to reconcile.

 

APs slagging off the BS. APs demanding MM/MW leave their spouse and kids. MM/MW being told not to have sex with their spouses. APs going ape after the affair ends and trying to hurt the marriage.

 

Is that love? Is it really? Sounds as much like hate as anything.

 

If that is love I don't think I want any of it. I think I'll settle for friendship, kindness, considerateness, humour, sharing, generosity, good conversation and good sex.

[NotCamelot]

I happen to belive that verse completely. In fact, it was one of the things I quoted to my W when I forgave her for the A.

 

I also quoted it to her AP when I explained to him that my W was off limits to him and that I would always love her.

 

I feel, deep in my heart, that true love never dies.....even if people divorce or separate, I think if we truly do love someone, there is nothing that can kill all of that love......you may not be "in love' anymore, but I think you always love someone if you ever did to begin with.

 

Maybe I'm a "hopeless romantic"......but it makes life a lot better.

[drifter777]

I am an atheist and so passages like this are simply more proof to me that the bible is a fictional document intended to scare people into acting civilized.

 

Life is difficult. Co-existing with a partner, raising children, planning for the future while worrying about today - all of these things put a tremendous strain on people every day. Expecting that we can somehow live and love based on a blueprint from the bible is not realistic. If a passage like this provides some level of comfort to people - great. We all do what we have to do to make it through the night. Maybe if a BS is able to not kill their WS and AP they are following biblical teaching to the full extent that they are capable of at that moment.

 

Our FOO and upbringing shape our reaction to betrayal and ability to forgive. You can't put the genie back into the bottle by reading religious teachings, but for some religion can help heal the hurt in the immediate wake of d-day. Beyond that we are who we are and the path that promises the least amount of pain is that path we will take; even if it holds even more pain in the future. That's why those of us who have lived through betrayal try to help the newly betrayed who come her find their path with open eyes.

[CarboniteCammy]

I grew up southern baptist, and when I say that, I mean I was under lock down until I was 18. We were in church three to four times a week and I was sent to Christian camp every single summer. And then, my mom "encouraged" me to go to a Christian college by offering to help me pay for it if I did so. And, I did!

 

I'm not a religious person now, but I do believe that some of the principles taught by religion are worth understanding and following. That is one of my all time favorite verses, and that's what I strive to give to my husband.

 

I'm not a perfect wife. I wish I were. But, I feel that everyone deserves to be loved the way that verse defines it. It's beautiful and amazing even though I'm all too aware that I fall short. It gives me something to remember when I get angry, or I feel petty.

 

Who cares if you're an athiest? Do you read poetry? Enjoy literature? Do you learn things from the books you read? Do certain characters or passages move you?

 

Sometimes that's enough. People take comfort in this life where they can.

[waterwoman]

I've decided that it isn't love that "makes the world go 'round' ... rather, it's food

 

( just kidding...it's almost lunchtime and I'm hungry)

 

In all seriousness, I really do think that the high flung, flowery passages that speak of love are , well, full of cr@p ... seems like that is a shining example of the saying that 'all that glitters is not gold"

 

True love, to my way of thinking, is much quieter and deeper than that. it may not be full of thunder and lightning, but it endures all. Quietly, patiently and without false glimmer, it is always there.

 

I've not seen this very much in my life. But I've seen it in my mom and dad. Watching my dad hold my mom's hand while she was in the bathroom sick from her chemo., seeing the care and kindness he showed her when he picked her up to carry her to her bed when she felt too weak to walk, , how he'd clean her drains and change her dressings at home so she wouldn't have to stay in the hospital where she was unhappy ( she's a nurse and hated being looked after in the hospital) when I'd watch how he'd try to cheer her up and smile for her then, when she wasn't looking how he'd cry to see her in such pain...that is love. It's rare, doesn't happen overnight, in a day, a week, a month or even a year. It's deep and abiding and grows over time.

Like I said, it's a rare thing, but I've seen it in them ( they've been married since 1963). The best example I've ever seen of it in a movie was in an animated movie from the 1980's...the simple love between a husband and wife that endured through a huge adversity and lasted until the reached the end of their days...

 

one more thing...love enduring all, from as near as I can figure, doesn't mean that someone in love has to "endure" poor treatment or abuse...it does mean that the feeling of love may always be there, even if it's best that the two people involved not be together

 

I agree. That is love. The kind of love I want and can give. But that kind of love abides even through the arguments and the swearing and the rolling of the eyes and the nappies and the bins and the washing up and the awkward old PIL and the argumentative teens - it abides despite of itself and life iyswim. And it ain't perfect and angelic and it doesn't (very often) prompt verses or moments of swooning passion.

 

I read a lot of poetry and literature. I was brought up in the CofE (King James bible and lovely Victorian hymns) so very much steeped in the poetry and passion of divine love - but I guess that is Sunday love, in it's best clothes. The real stuff wears a pinnie and rubber gloves...

[dichotomy]

Borrowing a saying from corporate culture - "Everyone needs to have stretch goals - and we know you probably wont achieve them"

 

or to put in the words of Paul

 

I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it, but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us.

 

On a lighter note....I figure my wife has about half of 1 Corinthians covered with me.... and I got the other half.... and I suppose with something this much of stretch .... half ain't bad

Edited February 26, 2013 by dichotomy

[soccerrprp]

I love that passage. It's the way LOVE SHOULD BE, but most are unwilling, incapable of expressing in that way. The problem isn't the passage, it's us, flawed human beings who are equally selfish in our own way, tainted by ideas, habits, that corrupt the principles of the passage. Religious context or no, most people would believe that that passage describes a LOVE that we all would like to experience....

[Cali408]

I'm more of a Proverbs guy. Paul pontificated too much.

Adultrey

My son, pay attention to my wisdom,

turn your ear to my words of insight,

2 that you may maintain discretion

and your lips may preserve knowledge.

3 For the lips of the adulterous woman drip honey,

and her speech is smoother than oil;

4 but in the end she is bitter as gall,

sharp as a double-edged sword.

5 Her feet go down to death;

her steps lead straight to the grave.

6 She gives no thought to the way of life;

her paths wander aimlessly, but she does not know it.

[soccerrprp]

I'm more of a Proverbs guy. Paul pontificated too much.

Adultrey

My son, pay attention to my wisdom,

turn your ear to my words of insight,

2 that you may maintain discretion

and your lips may preserve knowledge.

3 For the lips of the adulterous woman drip honey,

and her speech is smoother than oil;

4 but in the end she is bitter as gall,

sharp as a double-edged sword.

5 Her feet go down to death;

her steps lead straight to the grave.

6 She gives no thought to the way of life;

her paths wander aimlessly, but she does not know it.

 

Hmmm, I was expecting something equivalent to the original passage...

[dichotomy]

You also bring up issues of Adultery, and forgiveness in your discussions of love.

 

Adultery of course, among all christian faiths is one or two acceptable grounds for divorce. How does a Christian stay and love - when God says its okay to leave?

 

Forgiveness is a central part of love - particularly Christs love for us. But forgiveness is also one of the more complicate things to understand. Some christian churches believe forgiveness can only come with repentance. True repentance is a painful and hard process for people who have cheated, it involves true shame, accountability and a willingness to make things right for all, and more. Some Christian Churches consul giving absolute forgiveness no matter what - even when the other person says they committed no wrong and wants no forgiveness.. tough stuff forgiveness. There is a whole book on forgiveness I read called "when forgiveness doesn't make sense" by Robert Jeffress that I advise other who have been betrayed to read.

[Ninja'sHusband]

"Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails;..."

 

I can buy that definition, and that I don't love my ex anymore.

 

If we had reconciled, I could probably buy it as well since I would have been able to forgive and still love her.

[Cali408]

i think that somewhere along the line, we have been taught to mistake the 'gliiter" for the real thing...

 

yes, the early heady days of a relationship or "love" may feel wonderful, but eventually, when all the sound and thunder has died down, what are you left with? The calm and quiet of a deep and true love, or the deafening silence of an empty heart?

 

This is what settled my emotions down. I remember leaving my wife when I was dating her and not being able to wait to see her again. I thought logically about real love vs. fantasy love.

 

Deafening silence of an empty house, a wife that didn't love me, not seeing my kids, being broke and not being able to see my ap every week put me on the straight and narrow rather quickly

[Spark1111]

I love this passage. It was read at my wedding and I again found it while reconciling, painted on canvas and it hangs proudly in my home.

 

Bottom line: It is not what you get, but how much you give that determines love.

 

It is an action; not passive receiving and selfish expectations. There is no score-keeping. It is respectful, kind, supportive, uplifting, accepting.

 

It doesn't demand. It doesn't hurt.

 

it is the IDEAL and something I aspire to.

 

Notice there is no mention of attention, ego-validation, flattery, lust, mean spouses, boredom and certain sex acts?

 

....just say in'....

[Feelin Frisky]

I love love. I just wish it were kinder to me.

[waterwoman]

Don't get me wrong - it's a beautiful passage and when I made my vows it all seemed so easy. H chucked it all away because it wasn't shiny and new anymore, so right now I don't want love. I don't want emotion. I want calm and security

[seren]

This is mine and H's poem, we discovered it when we were courting and read it to each other in the way of new lovers, said it aloud at our wedding all those years ago and again when we renewed our vows to each other. Our love has changed over the years from the heady, rush of just discovering love, to the gentle everyday, what we call, smiles across a crowded room type love, it was hurled at him on D Day and repeated by him many times in the days of reconcilation. It says it all to me, I love the suprise of seeing him when least expecting to and the rush of feeling that it gives me - he is also very pretty to look at, which is a bonus.

 

We have weathered the hugest storms, not just infidelity, but illness and the day to day problems that living as we do brings. I love the deep, love that longevity brings, I sometimes snuggle at night and think I will be snuggling with this man for eternity and that gives me such great joy. I am both a realist and a romantic, yet love is the glue that keeps it all together when I would have run for the hills. Enjoy the beautiful poem.

 

i carry your heart with me (i carry it in

my heart)i am never without it(anywhere

i go you go,my dear; and whatever is done

by only me is your doing,my darling)

 

i fear no fate(for you are my fate,my sweet) i want

no world(for beautiful you are my world,my true)

and it's you are whatever a moon has always meant

and whatever a sun will always sing is you

 

here is the deepest secret nobody knows

(here is the root of the root and the bud of the bud

and the sky of the sky of a tree called life; which grows

higher than the soul can hope or mind can hide)

and this is the wonder that's keeping the stars apart

 

i carry your heart (i carry it in my heart)

 

e.e cummings (he always used lower case)

[Just a Guy]

I guess that kind of love is the kind that only Jesus Christ manifested when he died on the cross so that all the sins of Human Kind would be forgiven. He, in my opinion, was the only one who could have have suffered in the way He did and yet express His love for mankind. It is the ideal of love that we mortals can only aspire to. Some may be able to internalize a small part of that love but most can only wonder at the immensity of it. If we could achieve that degree of love then we would have achieved Nirvana. It is actually Spiritual Love, something not of this Earth!

[BetheButterfly]

I love this passage. It was read at my wedding and I again found it while reconciling, painted on canvas and it hangs proudly in my home.

 

Bottom line: It is not what you get, but how much you give that determines love.

 

It is an action; not passive receiving and selfish expectations. There is no score-keeping. It is respectful, kind, supportive, uplifting, accepting.

 

It doesn't demand. It doesn't hurt.

 

it is the IDEAL and something I aspire to.

 

I boldened most of your post and think it's so true and beautiful, and i aspire to truly love too!

 

It's amazing how love need not be limited to only certain people:

 

Jesus said to love God and to love one's neighbors' as oneself (Mat 22:37-39 NIV - Jesus replied: ??Love the Lord your - Bible Gateway),

 

to love each other (John 15:12 NIV - My command is this: Love each other as - Bible Gateway),

 

and to even love our enemies (Mat 5:44 NIV - But I tell you, love your enemies and - Bible Gateway, Luke 6:27-37 NIV - Love for Enemies - ?But to you who - Bible Gateway)!

 

That basically includes EVERYBODY lol!!!

 

It can be hard to love people. Growing up with 3 sisters included arguments and misunderstandings, but it helped knowing that we needed to love each other. I really appreciate the love of my parents for us and how they taught to love each other. We were encouraged to NOT say that we hated anybody but rather were encouraged to forgive when we argued and to tell each other we love each other and be patient, kind, not envious, happy for each other, humble, generous, peaceful, forgiving, protecting and trustworthy/trusting with each other, and enjoy life together!!!

 

With my husband, everyday it's a decision to love each other, and our love goes beyond the philos and agape love into the erotic(sexual) love. However, the agape and philos love are just as important in our relationship as the erotic love. In my previous relationships, I learned the hard way how important agape love is to marriage!!!

1 Corinthians 13 basically describes agape love, and it can be given to anyone. It's the hardest kind of love though, I think, and I agree that it is an ideal to which I aspire. I'm not perfect and still have a LOOONG way to go though lol!

 

Jesus, I believe, is perfect and shows the world agape love.

 

For my husband and me, it's important for us to walk together in his "footsteps" of Love.

Edited February 28, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[Betrayed&Stayed]

1 Corinthians 13:4-13

"Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails;..."

 

Wow! Now that is pretty amazing isn't it?

 

I believe that this verse is a very good description of Agape &/or Philo love. As far as Eros love (i.e. marriage), I don't know any more. Since d-day I don't know what "real love" is or looks like. And if I did, I probably wouldn't trust it fully. I'm still trying to figure that out. I guess that I have to accept that human love will disappoint; marital love does fail. I see it every day in the world around me. It's part of the human condition. Even with that, it's still hard to live in the paradigm shift that the A created. Chalk me up as an ex-Romantic.

 

For our wedding we hired a professional photographer. There was one photo of us that she used for advertising purposes and we had a copy of it. It has "All You Really Need Is Love" written across the picture (poster/ad). Looking back, I think that I actually bought in to that mentality.

[Yellowteacup]

Love is a mental disease.

[waterwoman]

Love is a mental disease.

 

Sorry you feel that way [sad] But I think maybe that is the conclusion I am coming too as well. As I say I have a lot with my H - a lot of positives and I feel like I love him and he loves me, but if love can hurt so damned much and cause so much destruction I am not sure it's such a wonderful thing. H loved OW. H loved me. So effing what..... it HURT! It still does. Perhaps it would be better to not want love, just settle for happiness and affection and all the other things I listed in my OP.

 

I thought love was one thing but it turned into something else <sigh> I am just so confused.

[dichotomy]

I know this thread is focused on the love between man and woman and the issues that come with it..... But after having kids, and recently the loss of my own parents, I have come to understand and really appreciate the more unconditional and lasting love that can exist between a parent and child.

[waterwoman]

I know this thread is focused on the love between man and woman and the issues that come with it..... But after having kids, and recently the loss of my own parents, I have come to understand and really appreciate the more unconditional and lasting love that can exist between a parent and child.

 

 

Totally agree. As I said earlier my love for my children is the most unconditional, constant and effortless love I have ever felt. For my parents too I guess. From H I expect more - it needs constant maintenance, as does our marriage.