TheFinalWord Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Then I don't understand the point of your reference to Acts 7. ...which is why I paste the verses j/k If the motivation to deliver God's people was in his heart (Acts 7:23), why would he flee after killing the Egyptian? Yes, fear of Pharaoh's wrath, but why fear it then and not later when he returned? Oh, just an interesting side note, Judaism does not consider what Moses did to be murder. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11049-moses Flees from Egypt. Moses did not commit murder in killing the Egyptian (Ex. ii. 12); for the latter merited death because he had forced an Israelitish woman to commit adultery with him (Ex. R. i. 33). Moses was at that time eighteen years of age ("D. Y." l.c.; "M. W." l.c.; "S. Y." l.c.). According to another version, Moses was then twenty, or possibly forty, years of age (Ex. R. i. 32, 35). These divergent opinions regarding his age at the time when he killed the Egyptian are based upon different estimates of the length of his stay in the royal palace (Yalḳ., Shemot, 167; Gen. R. xi.), both of them assuming that he fled from Egypt immediately after the slaying (Ex. ii. 15). Dathan and Abiram were bitter enemies of Moses, insulting him and saying he should not act as if he were a member of the royal house, since he was the son not of Batya, but of Jochebed. Previous to this they had slandered him before Pharaoh. Pharaoh had forgiven Moses everything else, but would not forgive him for killing the Egyptian. He delivered him to the executioner, who chose a very sharp sword with which to kill Moses; but the latter's neck became like a marble pillar, dulling the edge of the sword ("M. W." l.c.). Meanwhile the angel Michael descended from heaven, and took the form of the executioner, giving the latter the shape of Moses and so killing him. He then took up Moses and carried him beyond the frontier of Egypt for a distance of three, or, according to another account, of forty, days ("D. Y." l.c.; "S. Y." p. 115b). According to another legend, the angel took the shape of Moses, and allowed himself to be caught, thus giving the real Moses an opportunity to escape (Mek., Yitro. 1 [ed. Weiss. 66a]; Ex. R. i. 36). Edited February 21, 2013 by TheFinalWord 1
Author BetheButterfly Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 Off topic a bit, but does anyone have a source for this quote? I often see this quote, but it seems its authenticity cannot be confirmed. I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time. As quoted by William Rees-Mogg in The Times [London] (4 April 2005) {not found}. Gandhi here makes reference to a statement of Jesus: “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." (Luke 16:13); also partly quoted in Christianity in the Crosshairs : Real Life Solutions Discovered in the Line of Fire (2004) by Bill Wilson I have found no authoritative source for Gandhi saying this. The actual quote is attributed to Bara Dada, "Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians -- you are not like him." Source - Jones, E. Stanley. The Christ of the Indian Road, New York: The Abingdon Press,1925. (Page 114) The quote from Gandhi seems to be by word of mouth. Now, it is possible that it is taken from his answer to a question by E. Stanley Jones. The following is quoted in the book on page 162 of The Knights Templar and the Protestant Reformation by James Edward Stroud: (I boldened some) "When the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Gandhi he asked him, 'Mr. Gandhi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is it that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?' Gandhi replied, 'Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ. If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all India would be Christian today,' he added." The Knights Templar & the Protestant Reformation - James Edward Stroud - Google Books Now, I'm not sure if the "bumper-sticker" shortened version was adapted from Gandhi's answer to E. Stanley Jones' question, but E. Stanley Jones did apparently talk with Gandhi about Christ and Christian beliefs. About Bara Dada and Gandhi, I think many people who are not Christian have noticed a discrepancy between Jesus Christ's teachings and the actions of many Christians who say they follow Jesus, but go against his teachings to love and forgive. 1
pureinheart Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 No, M30, you really don't. Hey QJ:D Well, if I'm on the same page with M30, there is understanding...mine specifically is with the Prophetic. Prophets are not fortune tellers. Their primary purpose is to "pave the way" concerning the heart and mind of God. To supernaturally raise the awareness of Gods people and to give revelation and understanding. I've seen many "prophets" trying to operate in an anointing in which they donot carry. This could be one of the most coveted gifts of all because many liken it to "fortune telling". Two tell tale signs that one doesnot carry this anointing (which IMO can't imagine ANYONE really wanting this anointing) is if you see them primarily focused on "money" and using that in conjunction with giving "individual" words from "God". It's not bad to call for an offering or to give and individual word, although one will see heavy emphasis in these two things during group gatherings. God IS NOT a cheap parlor act, nor does He like to be put on stage performing "tricks". In no way am I condemning the one who walks in the true anointing. AND IMO there is still a great need for the true Prophetic anointing. 1
Author BetheButterfly Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Moses did not kill in self defense. Nope. He killed trying to save the Hebrew slave who was being beaten. Why do some Atheists who are in the army kill??? I am sure some Atheists have killed people who are hurting others in order to try to save those being hurt too. Also, whether Jesus had or had not yet come should make no difference to any absolute moral teaching, by definition. It's not reliant or relative to any outside factor.For Christianity, what Jesus said and did and when he came and why are very important. Without Jesus, Christianity would not exist. Do you think morality is relative, or is your god the sole and final authority? Christianity is pretty clear on this, yet you seem to be trying to rationalise murder committed by your prophets.Do you think Atheists never murder? Do you think Atheists never rationalize killing? So Israeli prophets can kill, but gentiles can't? You have got to be freaking kidding me.I think you just have a very negative and close-minded outlook on my posts and are just trying to nitpick at whatever you can. I never said that Gentiles can't kill. However, in case you forgot, we are discussing Christianity and Islam. Christianity is based on Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is Jewish and considered the Tanakh to be Scriptures. He is considered by Christians, both Jews and Gentiles, to be the prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18; John 1:45; Acts 3:20-26). Muhammad however is not Jewish and contradicts both the Tanakh and Jesus' teachings. Meh, the same could be said of Paul. LOL, the exact same thing could be said of many Old Testament leaders (aside from acknowledging Jesus, who hadn't shown up yet).While you obviously don't care about God or Jesus, many people do. I do believe Jesus is coming again, but you are of course free to disagree with me. As for Paul, Paul did not amass an army and conquer or kill anybody after following Jesus, whereas Muhammad did amass an army and conquer people and order the death of many of his enemies. As for the Old Testament leaders, they were before Jesus' time, not after. Muhammad was born after Jesus, not before. Christianity is based on Jesus Christ, who Christians believe fulfills the prophesies and promises in the Tanakh concerning him. Islam is not based on Jesus Christ but rather on Muhammad and what Muhammad dictated in the Qur'an, as well as what the hadith say about him. You can mock and be as rude and negative as you like, but that does not change one iota Jesus' teachings of love and forgiveness. Edited February 21, 2013 by BetheButterfly
TheFinalWord Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 The quote from Gandhi seems to be by word of mouth. Now, it is possible that it is taken from his answer to a question by E. Stanley Jones. The following is quoted in the book on page 162 of The Knights Templar and the Protestant Reformation by James Edward Stroud: (I boldened some) "When the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Gandhi he asked him, 'Mr. Gandhi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is it that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?' Gandhi replied, 'Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ. If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all India would be Christian today,' he added." The Knights Templar & the Protestant Reformation - James Edward Stroud - Google Books Now, I'm not sure if the "bumper-sticker" shortened version was adapted from Gandhi's answer to E. Stanley Jones' question, but E. Stanley Jones did apparently talk with Gandhi about Christ and Christian beliefs. About Bara Dada and Gandhi, I think many people who are not Christian have noticed a discrepancy between Jesus Christ's teachings and the actions of many Christians who say they follow Jesus, but go against his teachings to love and forgive. Thanks for the explanation Bethe! I won't belabor the point. I do agree that all people fall short of Christ teachings. That IMHO is the first acknowledgement required to become a Christians aka "poor in spirit" and acknowledgement that "Jesus is Lord" The doctrine of justification. It is active seeking of the Lord and passive trust in the Lord through the yielding of our lives to God that sanctifies us. Doctrine of progressive sanctification. Sanctification begins at the moment of justification and continues for life. The moment we are saved and the initial moral change, continues through our life and is made complete when Christ returns More if interested: Sanctification: The work of the holy spirit and scripture http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/msj21h.pdf Sanctification and justification: A unity of distinctions http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/msj21g.pdf 2
M30USA Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Two tell tale signs that one doesnot carry this anointing (which IMO can't imagine ANYONE really wanting this anointing) is if you see them primarily focused on "money" and using that in conjunction with giving "individual" words from "God". Wow, so true. I might also add that every prophet in the Bible, except one that I'm aware of, was met with the same reactions at large: 1) laughter, 2) opposition (sometimes violent). It's not an absolute litmus test, but due to human nature, if a person who claims to be a prophet is embraced and accepted by society at large, then you should further investigate their authenticity. This will continue to be true until Christ returns and ends the reign and deception of satan upon the world. Edited February 21, 2013 by M30USA
M30USA Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Right, by what measure did he achieve this? He preached against violence and taught that anger was equivalent to murder in one's heart, yet he opened a big can of whoop-ass on some merchants. Told people not to call others fools, then proceded to call others fools. So, he couldn't even live up to his own standard and practice what he preached. All we're left with is the strange idea of him fully pleasing himself, which is not hard to achieve for somebody with a narcissistic personality disorder. Once again, your theology is internally inconsistent. Read carefully Matthew 7:1-5 where Jesus talks about judging. This chapter is almost always taught incorrectly. It doesn't prohibit judgement. It only prohibits judgement when you, yourself, are guilty of the same sin. Jesus is guilty of no sins, therefore he can judge in the examples you've provided.
TheFinalWord Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 That's nice for Judaism. Except obviously when women are taken as conquests of war. You really don't see how utterly self-serving and morally bankrupt this is? I did not say I agreed with Judaism explanation But I think it is useful to have explanations from all sides. I do not see where this is going. I was originally interacting with Bethe, and you stated that my response to her justified murder? I do not see how that was derived from Acts 7. The motivation was pinpointed, but that does not justify anything IMHO. I am confused what this is even about anymore so I will just stop I am glad to see you are reading the beatitudes though. Peace.
M30USA Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Err, the examples I provided are of him doing exactly what he judged others for. Your only out is if you take the stance that god cannot sin by definition, any more than an individual cannot be not themselves. But in that case it's rendered meaningless. Where does God say anger is a sin? Anger over unrighteousness is actually a hallmark trait of God.
pie2 Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Eros, you have so much information to share Religions of the world need to learn how to co-operate and not nitpick at each others beliefs. I have to agree that nitpicking can get pretty destructive. Most Christians who are passionate about their faith, (as believers ought to be; God doesn't like the lukewarm ) are going to want to share their thoughts about religion. But, I agree...discussions about religion don't have to get to the point of destruction. Overall, I would say Mohammed was a man who sought to establish a faith that he felt was needed in his time. Much like other religions that have risen up out of the need of their time....However, the essence of the faith of Islam is that of peace. The contradiction of claiming to be a disciple/prophet of God, yet changing the fundamental message is very telling. It seems that Mohammed's motivations could have been clouded by his own natural human nature, which can make it difficult to control desires for power, influence or notoriety. Mohammed had one wife, Khadijah, for twenty five years...When he doubted the vision of Gabriel fearing that it was inspired by evil spirits, it was she who encouraged him saying that his virtuous life was his protection and he shouldn't have fear. This says so much to me. I am so curious to learn more about that. I wouldn't feel at all comfortable giving spiritual authority to a man who thinks he's being influenced by demons . That does not seem right! Anyway, thanks Eros. I liked reading the information you posted Edited February 22, 2013 by pie2 1
pureinheart Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Wow, so true. I might also add that every prophet in the Bible, except one that I'm aware of, was met with the same reactions at large: 1) laughter, 2) opposition (sometimes violent). It's not an absolute litmus test, but due to human nature, if a person who claims to be a prophet is embraced and accepted by society at large, then you should further investigate their authenticity. This will continue to be true until Christ returns and ends the reign and deception of satan upon the world. You do know the Prophetic...I had to laugh (not at what you said, but the validity of it!) as acceptance isn't usually the norm:)
pureinheart Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 The quote from Gandhi seems to be by word of mouth. Now, it is possible that it is taken from his answer to a question by E. Stanley Jones. The following is quoted in the book on page 162 of The Knights Templar and the Protestant Reformation by James Edward Stroud: (I boldened some) "When the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Gandhi he asked him, 'Mr. Gandhi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is it that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?' Gandhi replied, 'Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ. If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all India would be Christian today,' he added." The Knights Templar & the Protestant Reformation - James Edward Stroud - Google Books Now, I'm not sure if the "bumper-sticker" shortened version was adapted from Gandhi's answer to E. Stanley Jones' question, but E. Stanley Jones did apparently talk with Gandhi about Christ and Christian beliefs. About Bara Dada and Gandhi, I think many people who are not Christian have noticed a discrepancy between Jesus Christ's teachings and the actions of many Christians who say they follow Jesus, but go against his teachings to love and forgive. I tell you Bethy, my first reaction or thought is why are Christians put under such a microscope, for Gods sake noone is perfect. Then conviction takes place and I wish we all could live up to the expectations. Regardless of how unfair it can seem at times (which it really isn't if one really thinks about it), it is important for all of us to know and understand that we are being watched per se by the world. It isn't a lot to ask. Most of us have it priddy good...personally will take heed to my own words, keeping in mind how blessed I/we really are:) 1
pureinheart Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Ok, you guys got me curious and am watching the movie "Gandhi". An hour into it and wow what a fascinating person. With little knowledge of him, still it was hard for me to see that a person of his nature could say anything close to the statement given. Now can see that a variation is possible given the brand of Christianity he came in contact with. Based on this movie, most of the Christians were control based IMO...more of the "observing the form, but denying the power thereof". 2
Author BetheButterfly Posted February 22, 2013 Author Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Forget the idea that he was a prophet. Because you have your own definition of what a prophet is, as do others. It will just be a point of contention that will get us no where. So just leave it as it is. I do not tell you what to do, and I would appreciate the same courtesy to be extended to me from you. Thank you. "My" definition of a prophet is the same as the first definition found in Dictionary.com | Find the Meanings and Definitions of Words at Dictionary.com "proph·et [prof-it] Show IPA noun 1.a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration." Prophet | Define Prophet at Dictionary.com For centuries, Christians have believed that Muhammad is a false prophet, that he does not truly speak for the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), King David, and Jesus. Lets just focus on Mohammed the man. First, I understand where you got the idea of him not being able to read. But I doubt it, mainly because he was a wealthy and powerful merchant. And merchants kept strict records of their dealings and money. The other reason I doubt he was illiterate was because it was said that he studied with the Nestorian Christian sect where he learned the origin of the faith and doctrines of Christianity.There are conflicting reports as to if he was illiterate or not. Below is from one perspective: (I boldened some) "According to the authentic Hadiths of Ahlul-Bayt (a.s) and our best understanding of the Quran, the Prophet (p) was unlettered prior to his Mission, but since his Mission began, he was – by the Leave of Allah- reading the book (at least the Quran) but was not normally writing. However, we need to keep in mind that illiteracy for the Prophet (p) was a virtue for that means that he was never taught by anyone. The only teacher of the Prophet was: الرَّحْمَٰنُ عَلَّمَ الْقُرْآنَ “The Most Beneficent! Has taught the Qur’an”." Was the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) illiterate? | Ask the Sheikh While Muslims today are divided on this issue, some still believe that Muhammad was in fact illiterate and that he was only "taught" by Allah (through the angel Gabriel), not by people. Now, while many Muslims do recognize that he talked with people who called themselves Christians, it is very possible that he did not read either the Tanakh or the Christian Bible. Here are what another Muslim has to say who considers Muhammad to have been illiterate and thus the Qur'an as being a miracle: (I boldened some.) "Didn't Muhammad make up and write the Quran himself?" No. Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not write the Quran. He was not able to do so, because he was illiterate. He could neither read nor write and there are many who attested to this fact. "So, if Muhammad did not write the Quran, then WHO DID?" No person "made up" the Quran. The Quran came down to Muhammad, peace be upon him, from Almighty God (Allah) by way of the angel Gabriel (Jibril in Arabic) and then it was memorized by him and he then in turn, would teach it orally to his companions. It would be illogical that anyone would WRITE the Quran, because the word "Quran" actually means the "Recitation" (spoken words)." Did Mohamed Make Up Quran? The following is a hadith which may be why many Muslims over the centuries have considered Muhammad to have been illiterate: I boldened some.) "Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3: Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Center for Muslim-Jewish Engagement I doubt very much the allegations that Mohammed committed monstrous acts, such as rape.If it is true that Aisha was 9 when Muhammad married her and had relations with her, he would have committed statutory rape (at least, what is considered statutory rape by our day and age). One of Muhammad's "wives" was a 17 year old whose father, husband, brother were killed by Muslims. She and her family were Jewish. (I boldened some.) I do believe that she was raped, even if she didn't struggle or put up a fuss. I believe she was merely trying to survive after the men in her family had been killed. "(2) Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz: Anas said, 'When Allah's Apostle invaded Khaibar, we offered the Fajr prayer there yearly in the morning) when it was still dark. The Prophet rode and Abu Talha rode too and I was riding behind Abu Talha. The Prophet passed through the lane of Khaibar quickly and my knee was touching the thigh of the Prophet . He uncovered his thigh and I saw the whiteness of the thigh of the Prophet. When he entered the town, he said, 'Allahu Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. Whenever we approach near a (hostile) nation (to fight) then evil will be the morning of those who have been warned.' He repeated this thrice. The people came out for their jobs and some of them said, 'Muhammad (has come).' (Some of our companions added, "With his army.") We conquered Khaibar, took the captives, and the booty was collected. Dihya came and said, 'O Allah's Prophet! Give me a slave girl from the captives.' The Prophet said, 'Go and take any slave girl.' He took Safiya bint Huyai. A man came to the Prophet and said, 'O Allah's Apostles! You gave Safiya bint Huyai to Dihya and she is the chief mistress of the tribes of Quraiza and An-Nadir and she befits none but you.' So the Prophet said, 'Bring him along with her.' So Dihya came with her and when the Prophet saw her, he said to Dihya, 'Take any slave girl other than her from the captives.' Anas added: The Prophet then manumitted her and married her." Thabit asked Anas, "O Abu Hamza! What did the Prophet pay her (as Mahr)?" He said, "Her self was her Mahr for he manumitted her and then married her." Search the word Safiya in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta) Sadly, rape can most definitely happen in marriage. Most girls would not want to have sex with the man who ordered her family's murder. I feel very sorry for Safiyah. Before Mohammed became the prophet of Islam, it was said that he was honest, fair, and was wise in his dealings. He was a man of virtue in his time of poor beginnings even to his time of great wealth as a merchant. He could have spent the rest of his life as a wealthy and powerful merchant. Instead, in his time he thought that the faiths of his land were insufficient for his people. He neglected his business, depleted most of his wealth to charity, and even endangered his own health to seek spiritual enlightenment. I don't believe that a man whose very doctrines which are inspired by Jewish and Christian doctrines would persecute the Jews and Christians. It would be awesome to be able to go back in time and videotape what he did, but the historic accounts of what he did to Jewish people and Christians who did not believe his claims show that he did persecute those who didn't believe in him. He also persecuted other Arabs who didn't believe in him. His battles and invasions were to force conversion and to get rich. While at first he was a humble man who was kind to his enemies, eventually that changed once he grew in power. The man called them the "People of the Book" meaning that they worshiped the same God as he did. It was also said that when he entered Mecca that he ordered none to be injured, but his orders were disobeyed and a few Meccan's were killed. Even then, he pardoned all those who persecuted his faith. I think the story of the persecution is the result of his followers and successors after him committing the act, but the blame was placed on Mohammed.Have you ever read the Qur'an? Just curious. I have read most (though not all) of it, and he goes from being nice to the "People of the Book" to condemning them and being very hostile. I think one of the main reasons is because most Jews and Christians did not accept his claims. They knew he was a false prophet. As for Mecca, Mecca is not the only place he conquered. He invaded other places where he was not so kind to those who didn't believe in his claims. Mohammed had one wife, Khadijah, for twenty five years. She was a widow of a successful merchant and as such inherited his wealth. Mohammed was first employed by her to handle the business which he was very sufficient at. She married him being fifteen years his senior, Mohammed being twenty five. Mohammed was very loyal to Khadijah, and she was the first to convert to his faith. It was said that when Mohammed began his spiritual journey to Mt. Hira she gave him her full support. When he was weak from his long solitary trips, she would help him. When he doubted the vision of Gabriel fearing that it was inspired by evil spirits, it was she who encouraged him saying that his virtuous life was his protection and he shouldn't have fear. After her death, he was at loss and none could replace her. He remarried for political reasons, and he wed a few a widows for their protection. The man viewed women with respect and as equals, and sometimes placing them superior to men in some respects. Have you read the Hadith? I have read many of the hadith, and Muhammad changed from the time he was married to Khadijah and loved her to the time he married many women, including a girl who was possibly very underage, as well as slave girls who he made his wives for their "freedom." Why Did Mohammed Have So Many Wives is a very interesting article about Muhammad and his many women. Those Christians who speak against Mohammed for polygamy must look at their own book, Psalms of David and the Proverbs of Solomon. Most Christians who do not accept Muhammad's claims of prophethood do not have so much of an issue with polygamy, but rather his not following Jesus' teachings. Jesus, by the way, did however show that one man and one woman is God's ideal, when he quoted Genesis while addressing the sad topic of divorce: Matthew 19 (I boldened some.) Matthew 19 NIV - Divorce - When Jesus had finished - Bible Gateway 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[Genesis 1:27] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[Genesis 2:24]?6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Even at the height of his power Mohammed kept a simple life. It was said by those closest to him that he mended his own clothes, cobbled his own shoes, had a diet mostly of barley bread and water, wore simple attire, and was known to eat meals with servants. There are various accounts as to how the fighting began with the Muslims. One relates to Mohammed first telling his followers to be pacifist, but after much persecution and being chased out of Mecca his followers urged him to fight. Others say the Muslims started it. So it's not certain. As for Mohammed being a negative impact. If you know how to count 1-2-3 etc, then you are using Arabic numerals. There was a lot of great contributions from Islam in the field of math, science, and art. Such as algebra, chemistry, and the earlier workings of optics. We can dispute back and forth, and I'm sure you can cite your own resources which would point out that Mohammed was a bad man. However, the essence of the faith of Islam is that of peace. I find that his earlier life being a man of virtue, wise and fair; to his later life as a prophet of Islam being a man who persecutes other faiths and commits heinous acts to be contradictory. I would say that the inspirational works in the Koran are more to Mohammed's teachings and any contradictions or misinterpretations where done by the misunderstandings of his teaching or interpolation by those who sought to use the faith for their own ambitions. Overall, I would say Mohammed was a man who sought to establish a faith that he felt was needed in his time. Much like other religions that have risen up out of the need of their time. As for him being a true or false prophet, it doesn't matter. Religions of the world need to learn how to co-operate and not nitpick at each others beliefs.I agree that Muhammad "sought to establish a faith that he felt was needed at his time." However, that does not at all mean that he is following Jesus' teachings. Christianity and Islam are very different because Jesus Christ and Muhammad's teachings are very different. Their examples are also very different. Religions of the world need to be able to engage in respectful and truthful dialogue and live together in peace. However, many Muslims have been "nitpicking" Christian beliefs since Muhammad. It is perfectly fine for Christians to defend their beliefs nonviolently. It is also perfectly fine for Christians to explain why they do not believe Muhammad's claims, and it is perfectly fine for those who follow Muhammad and the Qur'an and the hadiths to explain why they believe Muhammad's claims. Islam and Christianity are 2 very different beliefs. As a Christian who has been invited numerous times to "revert" to Islam, it is important to me to study what Muhammad did as well as what the Qur'an and the hadiths say, and compare that to my beloved Jesus' actions and teachings, accounted in the Bible. Edited February 22, 2013 by BetheButterfly
M30USA Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Ok, you guys got me curious and am watching the movie "Gandhi". An hour into it and wow what a fascinating person. With little knowledge of him, still it was hard for me to see that a person of his nature could say anything close to the statement given. Now can see that a variation is possible given the brand of Christianity he came in contact with. Based on this movie, most of the Christians were control based IMO...more of the "observing the form, but denying the power thereof". Sounds like Christianity today. Honestly, I don't even prefer to call myself a Christian. I like to say "follower of Christ". 1
Author BetheButterfly Posted February 22, 2013 Author Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Sounds like Christianity today. Honestly, I don't even prefer to call myself a Christian. I like to say "follower of Christ". One can call a follower of Christ a "Christian." That is basically what a true Christian is: a follower of Christ. Christianity should not be defined however by people who call themselves "Christians" yet don't obey Jesus Christ, but rather Christianity should be defined by what Jesus did and said, which includes giving commands to those who follow him. Jesus made it clear that those who love him will obey his commands: John 14 (I boldened some.) John 14 NIV - Jesus Comforts His Disciples - ?Do - Bible Gateway "15“If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live." One of his commands is to love one's enemies: Matthew 5 (I boldened some.) Mat 5 NIV - Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount - Bible Gateway "43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Luke 6 (I boldened some.) Luke 6 NIV - Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath - One - Bible Gateway "27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. 37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Sad to say, many people who call themselves Christians do not obey what Jesus commanded. The violence many "Christians" have done to other people goes directly against Jesus' commands to love, since Love does not equal killing or persecuting or abusing others. If a person who said they followed Gandhi's teachings went and killed people, that would show he/she truly does not ascribe to Gandhi's stance on nonviolence and is not a true follower of Gandhi. If people say they followed Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream and nonviolent stance but went out and killed people who were different than them, that would show they did not truly believe like he did. In the same way, those "Christians" who do not follow Jesus' commands show they are not truly followers of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not kill anybody nor did he order his apostles and disciples to kill or persecute those who do not believe in him. Rather, he commanded them to love even their enemies. He did not tell them to persecute others, but rather told them they are blessed when they are persecuted because of him: Matthew 5 (NIV) I boldened some. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205&version=NIV 3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Edited February 22, 2013 by BetheButterfly 1
pureinheart Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Sounds like Christianity today. Honestly, I don't even prefer to call myself a Christian. I like to say "follower of Christ". Ya, I know what you mean. Thinking "Christian" is just an easier indentifier? I take real issue especially when the term "religious" is used because religion is man-made...but know what people mean when they use that term (so no offense to those that use it). Personally am not affiliated with any church, mainly because of the "membership" thing...I am a member of the Body of Christ:D 1
TheFinalWord Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Ok, you guys got me curious and am watching the movie "Gandhi". An hour into it and wow what a fascinating person. With little knowledge of him, still it was hard for me to see that a person of his nature could say anything close to the statement given. Now can see that a variation is possible given the brand of Christianity he came in contact with. Based on this movie, most of the Christians were control based IMO...more of the "observing the form, but denying the power thereof". Ben Kinsley has a propensity for playing religious and political figures. He also plays Moses and Potiphar.
pureinheart Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 One can call a follower of Christ a "Christian." That is basically what a true Christian is: a follower of Christ. Christianity should not be defined however by people who call themselves "Christians" yet don't obey Jesus Christ, but rather Christianity should be defined by what Jesus did and said, which includes giving commands to those who follow him. It should be this way, and I agree with you completely. Many have used the term Christian in such negative ways to describe negative groups of people. LOL Bethy, so much so that it even confuses me! One thread got me into some hot water due to lack of understanding (and extreme naivety). THIS is why we need many like you that explain what the true Christian really is. Now my ministry gives GREAT description to the saying that Chritians aren't perfect, just forgiven!
RealLove Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 Love this M30! Being "perfect" isn't a pre-requisite for being a prophet. And obviously, Mohammed wasn't perfect. However, Mohammed isn't considered to be a prophet in the Christian community because so many of his teachings directly contradicted Christ's. For example, the resurrection isn't accounted for in the Quran. Obviously you think that "church" teachings are Christ's. This is false, try this. (i guess you think God was God before jesus came to earth ie trinity) Another person asked why did Muhammad had many wives ? The Qur’an Is the Only Holy Book That Actually Says “Marry Only One” Islam’s Straightforward Approach in Problem Solving Why was Prophet Muhammad polygamous? Why Did the Prophet Have So Many Wives?
RealLove Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 It should be this way, and I agree with you completely. Many have used the term Christian in such negative ways to describe negative groups of people. LOL Bethy, so much so that it even confuses me! One thread got me into some hot water due to lack of understanding (and extreme naivety). THIS is why we need many like you that explain what the true Christian really is. Now my ministry gives GREAT description to the saying that Chritians aren't perfect, just forgiven! I am not trinitarian but follow Jesus, does this make me christian ?
Author BetheButterfly Posted February 22, 2013 Author Posted February 22, 2013 It should be this way, and I agree with you completely. Many have used the term Christian in such negative ways to describe negative groups of people. LOL Bethy, so much so that it even confuses me! One thread got me into some hot water due to lack of understanding (and extreme naivety). THIS is why we need many like you that explain what the true Christian really is. Now my ministry gives GREAT description to the saying that Chritians aren't perfect, just forgiven! Jesus is the one who explains what a true follower of his does and is. A true follower of his, whether she/he calls her/himself a "Christian" or not, follows Jesus' teachings. That's so true!!! Christians are most definitely NOT perfect!!! Forgiveness is a beautiful thing. 1
Author BetheButterfly Posted February 22, 2013 Author Posted February 22, 2013 Obviously you think that "church" teachings are Christ's. This is false, try this. (i guess you think God was God before jesus came to earth ie trinity) Another person asked why did Muhammad had many wives ? The Qur’an Is the Only Holy Book That Actually Says “Marry Only One” Islam’s Straightforward Approach in Problem Solving Why was Prophet Muhammad polygamous? Why Did the Prophet Have So Many Wives? The Qur'an says the following: (I boldened some.) IslamiCity: Quran Search " If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." Now, how exactly did the Muslims get "(a captive) that your right hands possess"? Jesus did not specifically say to only marry one woman, but he did point back to God's ideal accounted in Genesis: Matthew 19 (I boldened some.) Mat 19 NIV - Divorce - When Jesus had finished - Bible Gateway "19 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there. 3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[Genesis 1:27] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[Genesis 2:24]?6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Notice "a man"... "his wife" ... "two will be one flesh" So, while Jesus did not specifically say to marry just one person, he did point to God's ideal while he was answering a question about divorce.
RealLove Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 The Qur'an says the following: (I boldened some.) IslamiCity: Quran Search " If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." Now, how exactly did the Muslims get "(a captive) that your right hands possess"? Jesus did not specifically say to only marry one woman, but he did point back to God's ideal accounted in Genesis: Matthew 19 (I boldened some.) Mat 19 NIV - Divorce - When Jesus had finished - Bible Gateway "19 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there. 3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[Genesis 1:27] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[Genesis 2:24]?6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Notice "a man"... "his wife" ... "two will be one flesh" So, while Jesus did not specifically say to marry just one person, he did point to God's ideal while he was answering a question about divorce. captive is not in quran, just for you to know, and what you translate as'right hand possessed' means slaves, both of us know slavery was at times of Jesus & Muhammad and that Jesus never try to stop it. Bible told women to stay silent in church and if they are raped, they marry the criminal.
TheFinalWord Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 I am not trinitarian but follow Jesus, does this make me christian ? Good debate. RIP Walter Martin 1-27- United Pentecostals -VS- Christianity - DEBATE - YouTube
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