Christianity and Islam

[BetheButterfly]

I guess that depends on your view or definition of what a prophet is. As for Mohammed, he didn't view the Prophets and Messiahs as a personification or embodiment of God, but as good men sent by God. In that sense he accepted the ministry of Jesus and acknowledged him as a true prophet sent out of God. In that same sense, I believe Mohammed to be a true prophet.

 

(I'm not a Muslim or Christian, but I still believe Mohammed and Jesus were great men and prophets of God.)

 

Is it not interesting that Mohammed makes no distinction between the God of Islam and Christianity. They are both the same. The viewpoints of salvation may be different. But your Christian God and your friends God of Islam, is the same. God is the hand, religion the fingers of God, and each is fighting the other for dominion. Such foolishness, is it not?

 

The problem that I see is, with all good things, his teachings much like Jesus's teachings have been corrupted and obscured by the ignorant man. What confounds me, besides the violence from the extremist, is the Muslim states who mistreat women. Yet Mohammed himself says, "You have certain rights over your wives, and so have your wives over you... They are the trust of God in your hands. So you must treat them with all kindness."

 

As for your false prophets, turn on your TV at night and watch the debacle. These TV evangelists who preach that God wants you to be rich materially. Now that is absurd, when Jesus himself says to leave all things behind to follow him. Mohammed gave up his wealth and lived a simple life. Buddha abdicated his kingdom to seek enlightenment. All the wise men and sages knew that God's kingdom was greater than the material wealth of man.

 

Anyway, OP I have nothing further to add because I think the others have already answered it.

 

Good luck.

 

Hope you don't mind... I am starting another thread concerning the topic of Christianity and Islam because I did not want to derail the other thread.

 

I agree that there are many "false prophets" on TV, who call themselves "Christians."

 

However, I believe Muhammad is also a false prophet. Jesus prophesied that many false prophets would come. As for Muhammad, it is true that for awhile he lived poor. However, later on he and his followers engaged in battles and confiscated booty from people who did not believe his claim, including many of the Jewish people who lived in Arabia at the time. Later on after his death, Umar expelled the Jews and Christians from Arabia: (I boldened some below.)

 

Khalifa Umar bin al-Khattab - Umar as Caliph | Alim.org

 

"At the time of his death the Holy Prophet had expressed the view that in Arabia there should be only one religion, namely Islam. During the lifetime of the Holy Prophet, all the tribes in Arabia had accepted Islam. There were only a few pockets of non-Muslims, the Jews in Khyber, and the Christians in Najran. During the caliphate of Abu Bakr, many tribes who had accepted Islam apostatised. As a result of the apostasy wars, all the apostate tribes were defeated and they once again accepted Islam. During the brief period of his office, Abu Bakr allowed the status quo to continue with regard to the Jews and the Christians.

At the time of the conquest of Khyber, a treaty was executed with the Jews whereunder they were allowed to cultivate the lands on the payment of one half of the produce to the Muslim state at Madina. The treaty also provided that the Jews could be turned out of Khyber, whenever the Muslim state deemed it necessary.

When Umar became the Caliph he deputed his son Abdullah to Khyber to collect the revenue. As Abdullah lay sleeping on the roof of a house in Khyber at night, his bed was overturned by the Jews causing him an injury in the arm. Umar investigated the matter and found that the Jews were bent on mischief. Umar accordingly passed orders expelling the Jews from Khyber. They migrated to Syria. They were allowed to carry their movable belongings with them. Their immovable property in Khyber was distributed among the Muslims.

The Christians of Najran near Yemen had a pact with the Holy Prophet "hereunder they were allowed to live in peace unless they indulged in any hostile activities against Islam. It was also stipulated that they would not indulge in usury. When Umar became the Caliph it was brought to his notice that the Christians of Najran had violated the peace pact in as much as they were indulging in usury, and were also guilty of activities hostile to Islam.

Umar summoned the representatives of the Christians of Najran, and apprised them of the charge of violating the terms of the treaty. In a vainglorious mood the deputationists said "If that was that, they might be expelled." Umar accordingly passed orders for their expulsion. Arrangements were made for their settlement in Iraq. They were allowed to carry their entire movable property with them. Their immovable property was acquired by the state on payment.

Umar instructed his officers in Iraq that all possible assistance should be provided for the settlement of the refugees from Najran in Iraq. The Christians were exempted from the payment of Jizya for the first two years.

With the expulsion of the Jews and the Christians from Arabia, the country became an exclusively Muslim land. Umar has thus the distinction of being the first ruler under whom Arabia became the exclusive preserve for Islam."

 

 

Now, I have no idea if the Christians were guilty of usury or were being hostile to Islam. I am 100% against both usury and violence, especially violence. It is sad that people of different beliefs in God have used violence against each other.

 

 

 

However, there are reasons why many Jewish people and Christians (both Jews and Gentiles) don't believe that Muhammad is truly a prophet of the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, and King David. One reason is how he (once he had a powerful army) treated Jews and Christians who did not believe his claims.

 

Jesus did not kill or take from those who didn't believe his claims. Rather, he suffered and did not advocate for his followers to kill those who didn't believe in him, but rather commanded them to love their enemies.

[BetheButterfly]

You seem to think that this is a standard for true prophets. If so, when was the last time you read the Old Testament? Moses (aside from the likelihood of being entirely legendary) killed people, and by his actions many more perished. Back in the NT, Paul had lots of people executed, many of them Christians.

 

Are they false prophets too?

 

 

Where did Paul kill people? Please quote from the NT or other historic documents. Thanks.

 

As for Moses, he did order some people killed, but Moses is from the tribe of Levi, son of Jacob (Israel). However, most of the people killed during Moses' time were killed by God, not by humans.

 

Muhammad isn't Jewish... he is not a descendant of Jacob (Israel).

 

Jesus, by the way, is from the tribe of Judah, son of Jacob (Israel).

 

I believe Moses was a true prophet of God to his people, the Israelites.

 

I also believe Paul was truly an apostle (though not 1 of the 12 chosen apostles that walked and talked with Jesus during Jesus' ministry).

[Feelin Frisky]

I don't believe in believing anything. I give the edge to Jesus however for the "turn the other cheek" metaphor. It is a decidedly brilliant ethic compared to mere "an eye for an eye". Vengeance is mine, sayeth the lord.

[BetheButterfly]

Oh, QuickJoe,

 

Saul (who later became known as Paul) killed people before he accepted Jesus as the Messiah! Is that what you are referring? He did not kill people though after he became a follower of Jesus.

[M30USA]

I think Paul was responsible for the imprisonment of many Christians. And you actually find Paul in his NT letters writing that he is "chief" among sinners and least deserving of salvation through Christ.

 

As for the OT, Moses primarily led the Exodus, where Egyptians died by the hand of God (or his angel in the cloud), not by Moses, himself.

 

The primary "genocide", as people call it, in the OT was done by Joshua and his armies to rid Canaan of Nephilim offspring between fallen angels and human women--a very unpopular view but the ONLY explanation which lines up Scripturally (and unanimously held by church fathers until 450 AD).

Edited February 18, 2013 by M30USA

[M30USA]

I don't believe in believing anything. I give the edge to Jesus however for the "turn the other cheek" metaphor. It is a decidedly brilliant ethic compared to mere "an eye for an eye". Vengeance is mine, sayeth the lord.

 

Christ is the Son of Jehovah, God of the Old Tesrament who declared "eye for an eye". Christ taught to turn the other cheek, yes, but we will see the "eye for an eye" when he returns to judge those who aren't covered by his blood atonement.

[trevzilla]

On the cross Jesus asked God to forgive his enemies, Mohammed had his enemies assassinated including a pregnant women who wrote satire about him. There's no comparison. Also, Mohammed never predicted anything making him a false prophet. He acknowledged that the Mosaic Law was from God and Deuteronomy 18.21 says "21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed." so Mohammed was a fake. The Gospel of Mark was written around 50 AD so Jesus prophecy about not one stone of the temple being left on top of another was fulfilled in 70 AD and other predictions about Christianity spreading around the world, Christians being martyred throughout history and families being split when a member became a Christian. Also Jesus said you can know a person from the fruit of his life. Mohammed raped, led dozens of military campaigns, seized property, enriched himself, had 16 wives, had sex with a 9 year old girl, tortured and murdered. He was an evil man who has probably had more negative impact and been responsible for the deaths of more people than Hitler and Stalin. I know in this moronic PC culture we live in we're not supposed to say things like that, but it's true and it's all written down in Islamic texts.

[BetheButterfly]

None of the OT prophets became followers of Jesus, for obvious reasons of chronology.

 

Moses also personally killed an Egyptian and buried his body.

 

Yet these men are true prophets in your book.

 

Moses killed an Egyptian who was beating a Hebrew slave (Exodus 2). Moses was a Hebrew, though he was raised by the Pharaoh's daughter, a very kind lady who rescued him from the river.

 

Now in our time, slavery is illegal, thanks in part to the hard work of many people, including Christians in the UK and the USA, but in Moses' time, I doubt that beating somebody who was considered a slave was a criminal offense in Egypt...?

 

God gave Moses the difficult job of rescuing the Israelites (Hebrews) from slavery in Egypt. Now, I wish God had simply enlightened the Egyptians so that they would say, "What are we doing, enslaving another group of people? Let's set them free at once!" but that didn't happen.

 

There are historic accounts in the Tanakh that trouble me personally, especially the accounts of killing. However, I have to remember that I have a different worldview than they did back then and that Jesus Christ had not come yet teaching Love and Forgiveness.

 

Another thing that troubles me are the animal sacrifices, but then again, I have a different worldview than they did back then, before Jesus came as the Lamb of God.

 

About Jesus, he considered the Tanakh to be "the Scriptures" and considered himself to fulfill the requirements from the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms:

 

Luke 24 NIV - Jesus Has Risen - On the first day of - Bible Gateway

"44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

 

Now, it's most definitely fair to say that many Jewish people, both in Jesus' time and today, do not consider Jesus to be the prophet like Moses and the Messiah on the throne of King David, nor the Lamb of God. That is their right and they do have valid reasons. I personally disagree with those reasons, but I respect their right to not believe in Jesus. Jesus does not teach his apostles to persecute or kill those who do not believe in him. Rather, he taught them to love others and to tell about him. That is why I love people who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah too!

 

Concerning the prophet like Moses, it's a cool study because some Jewish people (including Jesus' apostles/disciples) and Gentiles (including me) believe that Jesus is indeed the prophet like Moses, who Moses prophesied would come: Deuteronomy 18.

 

John 1 (I boldened some.)

John 1 NIV - The Word Became Flesh - In the - Bible Gateway

"43 The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, “Follow me.” 44 Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. 45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

 

Acts 3 (I boldened some of Peter's "sermon")

Acts 3 NIV - Peter Heals a Lame Beggar - One day - Bible Gateway

 

"17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’[a]"

 

Now, many Muslims think that Muhammad is the prophet like Moses. However, Christians believe that Jesus is the prophet like Moses.

 

Also, many Muslims believe that the Tanakh and the Christian Bible (which includes the New Testament) are corrupted. One reason they think so is because the Qu'ran contradicts the Tanakh and the Christian Bible in different places.

 

It is possible that Muhammad did not read either the Tanakh or the Christian Bible; there are some reports that he did not know how to read. It is interesting to wonder how he received the contradicting accounts, whether by people or by a being who he believed was the angel Gabriel.

 

It's all a very interesting study. Christians believe that both the Tanakh and the Bible have not been corrupted and that the Qur'an, dictated by Muhammad, contradicts both the Tanakh and the Christian Bible and thus is one reason why he is considered by many Christians throughout the centuries to be a false prophet or to believe in a completely different god than the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), King David, and Jesus, who Christians believe to be the Son of God (in fulfillment of 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17). Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, although many believe he is the Messiah (and the Qur'an does infer that Jesus is the Messiah, though it denies that he is the Son of God.)

 

Jesus, by the way, makes it clear that he came not to abolish (or abrogate) the Scriptures but rather fulfill them:

 

Matthew 5

Matthew 5 NIV - Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount - Bible Gateway

"17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

 

This is why most Christians do not believe it is necessary to sacrifice animals anymore (Yay!!!), because Jesus fulfilled (not abolished) the Law (of Moses) by being the sacrifice once for all!

 

As for Saul/Paul, he persecuted Christians and approved the death of Stephen, but Jesus came to him in a supernatural way. After that, Paul was transformed from hating Christians to being a Christian. God has an interesting sense of humor.

 

Acts 8

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+8&version=NIV

"3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison."

 

Acts 9

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+9&version=NIV

"Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

Edited February 19, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[M30USA]

None of the OT prophets became followers of Jesus, for obvious reasons of chronology.

 

Moses also personally killed an Egyptian and buried his body.

 

Yet these men are true prophets in your book.

 

Theological question for you, quickjoe:

 

According to Biblical theology (not the consensus of Christian culture), what specifically makes a person "righteous"? Hint, you will find the answer in Genesis with Abraham.

[TheFinalWord]

Moses killed an Egyptian who was beating a Hebrew slave (Exodus 2).

 

Stephen told us the motivation behind Moses' killing of the Egyptian in Acts 7. If interested, all can learn by listening here (good overview of bible too):

 

Playing Acts 7 by Alexander Scourby - picosong

 

Please study verses 23-25

[taiko]

I see, so murder is okay with the right motivation. Aren't you guys the same ones that like to talk about absolute moral standards?

All killing is not murder, hence seperate distinct words in both English and Hebrew to seperate the two.

[BetheButterfly]

I see, so murder is okay with the right motivation

 

I would only say killing is ok for self-defense, but I do not base that on Jesus' teachings. Jesus came and taught Love for one's enemies and forgiveness. In Moses' time however, Jesus did not come, which makes sense because Moses said the prophet like him would come later, and the prophesies concerning the Messiah who is King David's descendant was not made in Moses' time.

 

There are some Atheists who think killing someone else is ok "with the right motivation" as well as Christians and people of many different beliefs. That is possibly why there are so many wars, because many people (including those who believe in God sadly and those who don't believe in God) think murder is ok with the "right motivation."

 

Aren't you guys the same ones that like to talk about absolute moral standards?

I don't ever remember using the phrase "absolute moral standards"? However, I do think it's important to base one's decisions on Love. Love is not selfish nor greedy nor hateful nor uncaring.

 

 

 

I mean, look at this:

Like that's supposed to make a difference? Seriously?

If you understood the importance many Jewish people who believe in G-d place on history, then yes it's very important that Moses is a fellow Israelite. Muhammad not being a fellow Israelite does make a difference. I guess you could compare it to a King or President... who do you think is more suited to be the President of the USA, a fellow American (if you are an American) or the King of Saudi Arabia? Wouldn't Americans just love for the King of Saudi Arabia to be our leader too? (I don't think so.)

Moses was a leader of the Israelites and a fellow/brother Israelite.

 

As for leaders killing people of other people groups as well as one's own, sad to say, that has happened in many people groups, not just in the Israelite or Arab people groups.

 

However, most Jewish people who believe in G-d do not consider Muhammad to be a true prophet of God one reason being because he did not truly lead the Jewish people. Rather, he led the Arabs and later persecuted Jewish people who did not believe his claims.

 

As for Jesus, Jesus did not kill anyone who did not believe in him. Rather, he focused on his true disciples' beliefs. (John 6:65-69) Jesus prophesied that false prophets would come. Even though Muhammad said that Jesus is a good prophet and the Messiah, he contradicted Jesus' teachings and example in many ways. For this reason, I and many other Christians believe that he is one of the false prophets that Jesus said would come:

 

Matthew 24 (I boldened some.)

Mat 24 NIV - The Destruction of the Temple and Signs - Bible Gateway

 

"Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

 

It is really sad about the hatred and the deceit and the increase of wicked and the love of most growing cold. Many false prophets have already come, including some who call themselves Christians but don't obey the Father, God:

 

Matthew 7 (I boldened some.)

Matthew 7 NIV - Judging Others - ?Do not judge, or - Bible Gateway

 

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

 

The following is why it's so important for Christians to obey Jesus' teachings, doing the will of the Father, because it's not enough to simply say one is a Christian. Actions are what show if one is truly following Jesus or not, not mere words.

 

Muhammad did not follow Jesus. Even though he started out poor and humble and acknowledged Jesus as being a prophet and the Messiah, he later became the leader of a powerful army that persecuted other people. Jesus did not teach his followers to persecute others, but rather to love even one's enemies, pray for them, do good to them, and bless them (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37).

Edited February 20, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[BetheButterfly]

All killing is not murder, hence seperate distinct words in both English and Hebrew to seperate the two.

 

That is a hard concept for me to grasp, but I understand it a little bit. For example, in another thread people are talking about if the USA should have helped rescue the people of Kuwait from Saddam. Yes I think it was "good" to have helped, even though that meant killing Iraqi soldiers. The reason I think it is good that we helped is because of the horrible torture being done to many of the people of Kuwait. If we didn't help rescue them, who would help them?

 

Self-defense as well as rescuing those who are vulnerable are reasons to kill others, I guess with the "right motivation" but I can't personally reconcile that with Jesus' teachings about loving one's enemies. I do think that torture is NEVER EVER acceptable.

Anyways, it's a tough topic. Long time ago, thousands of Christians were tortured and killed for their faith in Jesus. They didn't try to defend themselves. Should they have tried to defend themselves? Should other Christians have tried to rescue them with weapons? (Christians did pray for others, like when Christians prayed for Peter to be released from jail - Acts 12.)

 

I personally think that one of the greatest horrible times of history is when "Christianity" was hijacked by violence. Jesus Christ did not teach his followers to be violent to other people, but rather to love their enemies. I consider this akin to if someone said they followed Gandhi's teachings yet became violent, going against Gandhi's nonviolent stance.

 

The following quote of Gandhi really hit me hard, cause sad to say he's right in many cases. Christians need to follow Jesus Christ, and one of Jesus Christ's most distinguishing teaching is loving one's enemies!

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Mahatma Gandhi

Read more at

I like your Christ, I do... at BrainyQuote

 

 

[M30USA]

Quickjoe,

 

I understand your beef with the fact that many prophets, saints, and patriarchs in the Bible committed things like murder, adultery, etc.

 

It might help you to realize that God's plan with mankind never was dependent upon our goodness (or wickedness). God is the "author and perfector" of redemption and anything good that may come out of mankind. He gains nothing from our goodness; he loses nothing from our wickedness.

 

The fact that bad things are done by people who claim to follow him has several implications:

 

1) Nobody is "above" sin, except Christ.

 

2) Nobody can take ANY credit for their salvation. Even most Christians like to act as if there is at least SOME reason why God chose them--even if it's just 1%. There is none.

 

3) All men and women who come to repentance, therefore, become HIS glory and to HIS credit. God will be praised for accepting such awful and miserable wrecks as you and I. Nobody will enter heaven who thinks they deserve it.

 

4) Continued sin by a person who claims to follow Christ, while not good, CAN have the effect of keeping that person humble and dependent upon God. This is the difference between sin by believers and sin by non-believers. A real believer will literally HATE when he sins and will fall back upon God. It will keep him from being proud and believing he has any strength apart from God. (See how Christ said, "Apart from me you can do nothing.")

[TheFinalWord]

I see, so murder is okay with the right motivation.

 

Where did I say murder was okay or that the motivation was right? This is why I paste the verses, b/c rarely will anyone study independently.

 

I'm confused if you're addressing me at all. My response was to Bethebutterfly, but you posted right after me.

Edited February 20, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[pureinheart]

That is a hard concept for me to grasp, but I understand it a little bit. For example, in another thread people are talking about if the USA should have helped rescue the people of Kuwait from Saddam. Yes I think it was "good" to have helped, even though that meant killing Iraqi soldiers. The reason I think it is good that we helped is because of the horrible torture being done to many of the people of Kuwait. If we didn't help rescue them, who would help them?

 

Self-defense as well as rescuing those who are vulnerable are reasons to kill others, I guess with the "right motivation" but I can't personally reconcile that with Jesus' teachings about loving one's enemies. I do think that torture is NEVER EVER acceptable.

 

Anyways, it's a tough topic. Long time ago, thousands of Christians were tortured and killed for their faith in Jesus. They didn't try to defend themselves. Should they have tried to defend themselves? Should other Christians have tried to rescue them with weapons? (Christians did pray for others, like when Christians prayed for Peter to be released from jail - Acts 12.)

 

I personally think that one of the greatest horrible times of history is when "Christianity" was hijacked by violence. Jesus Christ did not teach his followers to be violent to other people, but rather to love their enemies. I consider this akin to if someone said they followed Gandhi's teachings yet became violent, going against Gandhi's nonviolent stance.

 

The following quote of Gandhi really hit me hard, cause sad to say he's right in many cases. Christians need to follow Jesus Christ, and one of Jesus Christ's most distinguishing teaching is loving one's enemies!

 

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

 

 

Mahatma Gandhi

Read more at

I like your Christ, I do... at BrainyQuote

 

 

 

 

 

You know Bethy, I so totally get where you are coming from with respects to wars and such (I could be repeating this, but there are times when more than two things on my mind creates an overload...not cutting myself down, just fact:lmao: ).

 

Your posts caused me to question greatly and what you said above makes much sense.

 

I've come to the conclusion that there are wars of the "flesh" are wars that are ordained by God- some may not make sense, but His ways are not ours.

 

Jesus is about love, completely and perfectly. Jesus had tough love for evil, He came as a Lamb and will come back as a Lion.

 

Anyway...love ya girl!

Edited February 21, 2013 by pureinheart

[TheFinalWord]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Off topic a bit, but does anyone have a source for this quote? I often see this quote, but it seems its authenticity cannot be confirmed.

 

I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time.

• As quoted by William Rees-Mogg in The Times [London] (4 April 2005) {not found}. Gandhi here makes reference to a statement of Jesus: “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." (Luke 16:13); also partly quoted in Christianity in the Crosshairs : Real Life Solutions Discovered in the Line of Fire (2004) by Bill Wilson I have found no authoritative source for Gandhi saying this. The actual quote is attributed to Bara Dada, "Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians -- you are not like him." Source - Jones, E. Stanley. The Christ of the Indian Road, New York: The Abingdon Press,1925. (Page 114)
  

[pureinheart]

Off topic a bit, but does anyone have a source for this quote? I often see this quote, but it seems its authenticity cannot be confirmed.

 

 

I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it's not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time.

• As quoted by William Rees-Mogg in The Times [London] (4 April 2005) {not found}. Gandhi here makes reference to a statement of Jesus: “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." (Luke 16:13); also partly quoted in Christianity in the Crosshairs : Real Life Solutions Discovered in the Line of Fire (2004) by Bill Wilson I have found no authoritative source for Gandhi saying this. The actual quote is attributed to Bara Dada, "Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians -- you are not like him." Source - Jones, E. Stanley. The Christ of the Indian Road, New York: The Abingdon Press,1925. (Page 114)
  

 

You know TFW...and I'll be a it off topic with you, because heaven knows, I'd ever be off topic:D

 

This quote is intriguing to me, wanted to say something ...so glad you picked it up.

[M30USA]

I've always doubted that Ghandi said such a thing. Hinduism is very conflicting with Christianity. Other than the Sermon on the Mount, I don't see why Ghandi would say he liked Christ. To say you like somebody is to, in essence, agree with them. And he did not agree with Christ.

[pie2]

To say you like somebody is to, in essence, agree with them. And he did not agree with Christ.

 

Well, I like you and I don't agree with you all of the time .

 

 

Regarding the quote, I am glad you said something TFW. At first I did feel guilty and sad about that quote. Now, I try to remember that the only opinion that really matters is God's.

[TheFinalWord]

Regarding the quote, I am glad you said something TFW. At first I did feel guilty and sad about that quote. Now, I try to remember that the only opinion that really matters is God's.

 

Welcome. Just to clarify not calling out Bethe I just see this quote used a lot and I was reading a while back on snopes where others were questioning its authenticity. Amen to the last sentence pie2!

[pie2]

I understand your beef with the fact that many prophets, saints, and patriarchs in the Bible committed things like murder, adultery, etc.

 

It might help you to realize that God's plan with mankind never was dependent upon our goodness (or wickedness). God is the "author and perfector" of redemption and anything good that may come out of mankind. He gains nothing from our goodness; he loses nothing from our wickedness.

 

Love this M30! Being "perfect" isn't a pre-requisite for being a prophet. And obviously, Mohammed wasn't perfect.

 

However, Mohammed isn't considered to be a prophet in the Christian community because so many of his teachings directly contradicted Christ's. For example, the resurrection isn't accounted for in the Quran.

[M30USA]

Love this M30! Being "perfect" isn't a pre-requisite for being a prophet. And obviously, Mohammed wasn't perfect.

 

However, Mohammed isn't considered to be a prophet in the Christian community because so many of his teachings directly contradicted Christ's. For example, the resurrection isn't accounted for in the Quran.

 

Everyone should be aware that Islam actually acknowledges Christ existed. It says he was a prophet. It even says he was born of a virgin! However, as Pie2 correctly said, it denies the cruxifiction and resurrection.

 

Christ being born of a virgin is actually NOT the first time it happened in the Bible. If you remember what I've been saying about the events of Genesis 6 where fallen angels sired children with human women, you could technically say that those women had "virgin births". Yet none of their offspring defeated death, proveable by resurrection.

[ErosOcean]

Forget the idea that he was a prophet. Because you have your own definition of what a prophet is, as do others. It will just be a point of contention that will get us no where. So just leave it as it is.

 

Lets just focus on Mohammed the man.

 

First, I understand where you got the idea of him not being able to read. But I doubt it, mainly because he was a wealthy and powerful merchant. And merchants kept strict records of their dealings and money. The other reason I doubt he was illiterate was because it was said that he studied with the Nestorian Christian sect where he learned the origin of the faith and doctrines of Christianity.

 

I doubt very much the allegations that Mohammed committed monstrous acts, such as rape. Before Mohammed became the prophet of Islam, it was said that he was honest, fair, and was wise in his dealings. He was a man of virtue in his time of poor beginnings even to his time of great wealth as a merchant. He could have spent the rest of his life as a wealthy and powerful merchant. Instead, in his time he thought that the faiths of his land were insufficient for his people. He neglected his business, depleted most of his wealth to charity, and even endangered his own health to seek spiritual enlightenment.

 

I don't believe that a man whose very doctrines which are inspired by Jewish and Christian doctrines would persecute the Jews and Christians. The man called them the "People of the Book" meaning that they worshiped the same God as he did. It was also said that when he entered Mecca that he ordered none to be injured, but his orders were disobeyed and a few Meccan's were killed. Even then, he pardoned all those who persecuted his faith. I think the story of the persecution is the result of his followers and successors after him committing the act, but the blame was placed on Mohammed.

 

Mohammed had one wife, Khadijah, for twenty five years. She was a widow of a successful merchant and as such inherited his wealth. Mohammed was first employed by her to handle the business which he was very sufficient at. She married him being fifteen years his senior, Mohammed being twenty five. Mohammed was very loyal to Khadijah, and she was the first to convert to his faith. It was said that when Mohammed began his spiritual journey to Mt. Hira she gave him her full support. When he was weak from his long solitary trips, she would help him. When he doubted the vision of Gabriel fearing that it was inspired by evil spirits, it was she who encouraged him saying that his virtuous life was his protection and he shouldn't have fear. After her death, he was at loss and none could replace her. He remarried for political reasons, and he wed a few a widows for their protection. The man viewed women with respect and as equals, and sometimes placing them superior to men in some respects. Those Christians who speak against Mohammed for polygamy must look at their own book, Psalms of David and the Proverbs of Solomon.

 

Even at the height of his power Mohammed kept a simple life. It was said by those closest to him that he mended his own clothes, cobbled his own shoes, had a diet mostly of barley bread and water, wore simple attire, and was known to eat meals with servants.

 

There are various accounts as to how the fighting began with the Muslims. One relates to Mohammed first telling his followers to be pacifist, but after much persecution and being chased out of Mecca his followers urged him to fight. Others say the Muslims started it. So it's not certain.

 

As for Mohammed being a negative impact. If you know how to count 1-2-3 etc, then you are using Arabic numerals. There was a lot of great contributions from Islam in the field of math, science, and art. Such as algebra, chemistry, and the earlier workings of optics.

 

We can dispute back and forth, and I'm sure you can cite your own resources which would point out that Mohammed was a bad man.

 

However, the essence of the faith of Islam is that of peace. I find that his earlier life being a man of virtue, wise and fair; to his later life as a prophet of Islam being a man who persecutes other faiths and commits heinous acts to be contradictory. I would say that the inspirational works in the Koran are more to Mohammed's teachings and any contradictions or misinterpretations where done by the misunderstandings of his teaching or interpolation by those who sought to use the faith for their own ambitions.

 

Overall, I would say Mohammed was a man who sought to establish a faith that he felt was needed in his time. Much like other religions that have risen up out of the need of their time. As for him being a true or false prophet, it doesn't matter. Religions of the world need to learn how to co-operate and not nitpick at each others beliefs.

[M30USA]

If there was even a single human being who did not sin and fully pleased God, then Christ would not have needed to come and we would be calling upon the name of [fill in the blank] to cover us from God's judgement.

 

Moses couldn't achieve this. Neither could Noah, Abraham, or David. The fact that God, himself, had to become flesh to achieve this points to the fact that mankind is hopeless without Christ.

 

The ONLY thing that can be said to the credit of these biblical characters is that, while they sinned, they BELIEVED what God said, "and it was credited to them as righteousness". (See Gen 15:6 or Psalm 106:31)