pbjbear Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 shutupmeg, if you found a woman who was willing to put in work and not expect you to do everything you would become like most men on this earth: lazy and selfish while in the relationship I dont believe you if you say otherwise
RedRobin Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 I like competent people who are passionate about their lives... and well-balanced in their emotional, financial, and physical pursuits. They also need to be able to manage and embrace the fact that both of us have emotional needs that need attending to. Being nurturing and understanding takes a ton of energy... which is why a lot of men don't do it. Nor are they compelled to. In my work, I've gotten very good at leaving the appearance of being nurturing because that is what people expect of women... even those in so-called leadership positions. When I get home... I expect we will nurture each other. If he expects me to be the soft gentle one, while I'm obliged to plow through his ignorant, insensitive behavior on a regular basis (and do so with a smile)... it is not going to work. At all. I don't like the term 'leading' in the context of romantic relationships because it carries with it tons of religious baggage and much, much worse.
AD1980 Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 As Brando says in the godfather "women and children can be careless not men"
pbjbear Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 You often talk about men being lazy and selfish while in a relationship. How exactly? The man takes all the initiatives, does all the calling, is responsible for keeping the relationship going. Say theres a couple. Who doesn't live with eachother yet. If it weren't for the man in that couple always iniating calls and get togethers they would never see each other. Ever. If the man is so lazy then what does the woman do? She is just sitting at home waiting for him to call. And if he doesn't, she wouldn't really care seeing as how the guy is usually more "in love" than the woman and therefore more invested. I already said men have to do more work in the beginning stage of dating but thats for a good reason: men who dont do that arent usually interested in the woman and us women understand this. No guy who showed little interest in the beginning turned out to be pretty into me. In relationships its always the men expecting everything in my experience. You have to initiate contact most of the time, you have to ask to hang out more, you do what they want to do activity wise (but they dont want to do what YOU want to do...I swear to god I am SO SICK of men who expect me to watch sports with them all the time yet they never want to do ANYTHING I want to do), expect things from you without getting anything in return. I no longer cook for men because I find once you cook they expect it all the time This usually doesnt happen overnight (thought it has with me, but usually not) its a gradual state of change.
Mme. Chaucer Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 shutupmeg, if you found a woman who was willing to put in work and not expect you to do everything you would become like most men on this earth: lazy and selfish while in the relationship I dont believe you if you say otherwise Well, that guy hasn't found a woman so far who has even spoken to him, evidently. But I must take exception to your assertions about what "most men" are like. Maybe the ones you've known … and if that's the case, maybe take a look at why you pick them. Most men I've known have not been any more selfish or lazy than I am. Often they've shown their devotion to the relationship in different ways than I would have fondly dreamed - for example, changing my oil rather than buying me flowers. Or getting me a toaster for my birthday. Their hearts were in the right place.
pbjbear Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Also most men say they want a working wife or live in girlfriend yet still expect the woman to do the vast majority of housework. Ive seen several of my close friends' boyfriends say they werent like this and then once they moved in together, slowly it came out they actually did think it is STILL to woman's place to do this work even though she works 40 hours a week just like him Ive never had a man do small things to show appreciation for me past the first few dates. Ive been given flowers during the first few dates a handful of times and one guy was romantic during Vday but that was our 3rd date and he never was again after that. All birthday and Christmas gifts I have ever gotten was jewelry (which I dont care I like jewelry) but its not thoughtful. Also none of the jewelry was expensive at all Sigh. Ive stated so many times on this forum Ive dated all personality types. Ive dated shy guys, outgoing guys, nerdy guys, fit guys and so on...people always assume women go after "bad boys" or womanizers though. I run for the hills when I get a player vibe from a guy
pbjbear Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 And most women never do anything to show any appreciation for their man. Women are not known to do romantic things. The whole purpose of V-day is for men to be romantic to women and give women gifts and do nice things for them. Oh so all the times Ive constantly cooked for men I dated, even after I worked longer hours than them, all the times I did small other nice things, given thoughtful gifts that took longer than 10 minutes in a random store, doesnt count? You just cannot accept theres a woman who doesnt fit your stereotype. Ive already discredited EVERYTHING you have said. Not every woman is selfish and entitled...I find far more MEN with that attitude than WOMEN. Men are not taught by society to CARE about other people shutupmeg. Get off the computer and go observe couples in REAL LIFE
pbjbear Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 And you cannot accept that theres men who don't fit your sterotype of being lazy and selfish and so on. Given the opportunity to do so, most will. There are a few exceptions. Hence why I say MOST MEN Im not convinced you wouldnt be the same way if not given the opportunity. Ive seen so many men say they wouldnt and then they do in real life
carhill Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Why is it so important to a women for a man to lead? Generally because it causes them to feel good about themselves with that person (man) being a focal point of that good and, antithetically, as the old saying goes, if mama ain't happy no one is happy. The other side of 'important' is that 'leading' feels good to most men, so there's a synergy of good feeling. If one person or the other has different views and/or styles regarding 'leading', then it can become a miss, or they can find a middle ground. Other aspects may reveal to be more 'important' than 'leading', for that couple.
pbjbear Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 And I'm not convinced you are not like the women I'm describing. So I guess we are at a stand still. You think men are lazy and selfish. I think women are passive wanna be princesses who wants to be put on a pedestal and wants the man to jump through hoops to get them. I am prob am one in your mind since I dont jump into bed quickly...thats what you mean by hoops right? Some women dont want to sleep with every guy they go on a few dates with. We have more to lose than you do
pbjbear Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Women make men jump through an endless amount of hoops to get in a relationship with them. Women love playing hard to get. Women love being chased. Women are not as intrested in men as men are in women, and I'm not talking about only sex. Most women don't even have sex when in a commited relationship, nevermind after a few dates. Oh right I remember seeing you write this in the Sex forum. You prob dated a girl who withheld sex in a relationship. I dated a guy who did the same thing so its not only women who do that. 2 other guys, after awhile stopped wanting it as much and when we did once in a blue moon, they did no foreplay whatsoever and expected all the sex to be quickies and nothing more. Not every guy or girl is like this though... None of my girlfriends in relationships dont have sex. Actually, several of them have higher sex drives than their boyfriends. Youll find a girl eventually who has your sex drive I dont think my hoops are endless or unreasonable.
Drseussgrrl Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Because men have a more "hunter" instinct than women do and it's just the natural way it flows. I know I love the feeling of a man in control. I love putting my head on his chest and feeling his deep voice. It's soothing. I feel protected. I love when he wants to make me feel special and desired and that he has to have me. There is a big difference between "controlling" men, and men who can command a situation. There is nothing sexier than a man who knows what he wants and can piece it all together, like a good date. You show up and there's a reservation. He's picked you up and opened the door for you. He's got interesting things to talk about. This type of man translates into a certain type in other aspects as well. He's not afraid to go after what he wants at work, can lead teams, manage projects with ease, etc. He's unafraid and a bit aggressive. So yeah when you complain that women say things like "separate the men from the boys", in essence you're unconsciously being placed into either an alpha or a beta category based on these small things that women pay attention to. You can argue against this and say that we women are all self-absorbed princesses who want to sit around and don't want to do anything but you're wrong. I've met a guy like this and it makes me so whipped, that I cooked for him this weekend, cleaned his place up real nice, and rocked his world in more ways than one. And he isn't sitting on LS complaining about what is "expected" of him from me.
RedRobin Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 I find that people who need to 'lead' all the time or be seen as leaders do so because they lack critical relationship and negotiation skills. They compensate by pushing their way around. People who routinely let them end up becoming complacent, docile, and boring. And while that may work for the short term... and feel reassuring... that is something I never care to be. I do not find that dynamic sexy or reassuring. I see it as a form of laziness on their part to avoid something more nuanced in his/her treatment of others. I'm aware of it because I have to be. In my work, I have to be both assertive AND nurturing...whatever the situation calls for. Now take a look at some famous male 'leaders' and see if they don't have both qualities... in turn and when appropriate. In the religious community, they call it "servant leadership" when men use these skills in service to others. Note that they can't reject the word 'leader' though... as if depriving them of that term is tantamount to scraping off their balls. Whatever. As long as men have to cling to these outdated terms like 'leader' to define their 'manhood' they will continue to be trapped by them. Things like mutual respect, caring, appreciation, gratitude... that's what I look for.
Drseussgrrl Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 I find that people who need to 'lead' all the time or be seen as leaders do so because they lack critical relationship and negotiation skills. They compensate by pushing their way around. People who routinely let them end up becoming complacent, docile, and boring. And while that may work for the short term... and feel reassuring... that is something I never care to be. I do not find that dynamic sexy or reassuring. I see it as a form of laziness on their part to avoid something more nuanced in his/her treatment of others. I'm aware of it because I have to be. In my work, I have to be both assertive AND nurturing...whatever the situation calls for. Now take a look at some famous male 'leaders' and see if they don't have both qualities... in turn and when appropriate. In the religious community, they call it "servant leadership" when men use these skills in service to others. Note that they can't reject the word 'leader' though... as if depriving them of that term is tantamount to scraping off their balls. Whatever. As long as men have to cling to these outdated terms like 'leader' to define their 'manhood' they will continue to be trapped by them. Things like mutual respect, caring, appreciation, gratitude... that's what I look for. To each their own, I guess. For the record, I wouldn't date someone who wasn't also respectful, caring, appreciative, etc. Are you saying you don't like it when a man can plan out a nice date for you and make you feel safe around him? I also think there are a lot of unfair generalizations in your post.
Ruby Slippers Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 Lol all the guys got puffed and felt challenged? I guess I'm not like most men then because I would of been checking out his chick instead of worrying about "rising" to his level. Yeah, that's what happened first - I just didn't want to brag They checked me out in my clingy red dress, then checked him out, then visibly sat up straighter in their chairs and perked up the energy of their date. It was really funny.
RedRobin Posted February 19, 2013 Posted February 19, 2013 To each their own, I guess. For the record, I wouldn't date someone who wasn't also respectful, caring, appreciative, etc. Are you saying you don't like it when a man can plan out a nice date for you and make you feel safe around him? I also think there are a lot of unfair generalizations in your post. There are lots of ways to define 'safe'. Emotionally, physically, etc. I find many men don't put a lot of thought into making women feel emotionally 'safe'... at all... I don't need them to protect me physically. They might try to match me in loyalty and willingness to share the load when it comes to taking risks career-wise in order to maintain the relationship... but no, I don't see that much either. I don't give a crap how great his career is. If he can't be a partner I could care less. I care more that he enjoys what he does and is connected to the work he does with some set of core values. Regarding planning dates... I like it when the people I care about pay attention to my likes/dislikes and put some thought into finding ways to show me that they are, in fact, paying attention. I admit I suck at that myself at times... I've never been a 'birthday' person or 'holiday' person, for instance. It should go both ways. These are qualities that are not exclusive to men or dating.
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