Valentine's Day Heartbreak

[Leo the Homely Lion]

 

[1] Well I'm not all that hostile I was hungry when I wrote my post. ;)Hunger usually makes me cranky and less careful with my words.

 

[2] I have heard of sexless marriages.

 

[3] I think I explained why she assumed you were sleeping with your wife. Because it's not the safest avenue to believe that you aren't. Married men are... by defintion... liars.

 

[4] Sexless marriages, yes they happen. They're pretty rare. It's why I asked what caused yours and why the two of you didn't continue what sounds like a GREAT relationship as friends and part ways as partners, or work to try and recapture that passion? That makes no sense to me.

 

[5] As far as why I said your wife should have factored in 5 years... it's because she should have. Just because I'm in love with someone who cheats on his wife doesn't mean I think he's making a good choice. Cheating IS wrong. I'd not do it to someone I professed to love. It's not a secret that I think his wife is a crazy, lunatic psycho, but I also think that it's crappy that he has been involved with me for years now behind her back... and not because I want him for myself but because it's childish, spoiled behavior and I'd be prouder of him as a human being if he owned his sh#@. It would just have been the right thing to do. If you really weren't sleeping together you had the option before something else happened to have changed your relationship first.

 

[6] I am sorry you are hurting, that sucks and there was a LOT of drama in that post.

 

[7] Your OW doesn't sound like a very nice person honestly. The behaviors your described do sound... controlling and unhealthy. It's going to take some time to get over it for you. Please take care of yourself, make sure you do eat well, that you do what you need to, some counseling maybe?

 

[8] I am not a proponent of rushing off to confess all to your spouse once it ends to purge your conscience. I just always think you should have thought of it before and not done it... but that's just me.

 

[9] As for the hostility.. you asked where it comes from.

 

That parts easy.

 

It comes from heartbreak.

 

Welcome to LS.

 

[1] I try to be very careful with my words. But sometimes I get a little bit lippy. Or too drunk. And there goes that plan.

 

[2] Yeah, me too. Good thing I didn't have a crystal ball in high school to foresee this. I mean, she's a great woman. But this is not a good deal. Peering into that crystal ball back then, I'd be all, "Wtf?" and I still am all that. I don't understand it.

 

[3] No. I must disagree with you here. Married men are not all by definition "liars". No, no, no. A married man in a secret affair has not been honest with his wife, granted. That's a lie. A continuous lie, by omission, which is the same as a lie. I give you that. But if that's his only lie, and who among us does not tell lies, I mean some psychologists say we tell like dozens of lies a day, but if that's his only lie (and yes, of course, it's an important lie), but if he's honest in all other respects, I say that's a person who has lied. It's not a "liar". I know liars. I'm related to liars. I make my living in part busting liars -- and people caught up in "a" lie they told. It's just too easy to say that because a person has said one lie, he can't be believed ever again. The reason I am sensitive to this is my special person IRRATIONALLY came to believe, without corroborating evidence anywhere, because it was impossible, oh man you should hear the zany things she accused me of, but she came to believe I lied about EVERYTHING. Seriously, she believed me on nothing. I'd ask her to name a single bona fide lie I ever told, and she could never name ONE. If there are any psychologists on board or otherwise knowledgeable people here, please tell me what that phenomenon's all about.

 

[4] I don't know what caused my sexless marriage. Because I got married and it was already sexless but I did it anyway. I knew I loved her deeply and I thought I owed her. I can't call it a mistake because I do think I owe her. Someone on this board said that means I married for the wrong reasons. Really? I know a zillion people who married in absolute lustful love. . . all the right reasons, right? . . . who weren't right for each other and divorced. So it's not so pat as that.

 

[5] No. I'm telling you I love my wife and would never leave her absent extraordinary circumstances -- and when I met my special someone, I thought that was it. But it quickly devolved into a morass of abuse, lies, and cheating. And still I hung on! And I'm devastated, while my wife sleeps, talking to you guys, for which I'm grateful (even you hostile folks ) You know, maybe I'm the world's worst lover. Man, I might be! How could I disprove it? That's the kind of thing my special person would put me through -- proving negatives. One thing that bugs me about this board is it always sways toward the wife. Granted, in my case, mine's innocent. We don't have sex, but I know that's my issue. Still, I have to say, and this will burn the posters who've had cheating husbands, my special person, though mean as a snake, is not bad-bad. She didn't intend an affair either. She wanted out as much as I did. We both broke up, man, I want to say 200 times, probably 33/67 her favor, most of it by EMAIL! It bothered her. It bothered me. I was seriously considering leaving my wife, some of you would say I should thusly have liberated her, but it's just not that easy or I'd have done it -- I fell in love with my special someone, who turned EXTREMELY emotionally abusive, telling me the truth tonight for the first time, on Valentine's Day, that she's been sleeping with some dude; I still love my wife, who's just an angel, she really is; and so I had magic and I thought love with the special person, while I have no magic but deep love with my wife. I don't get it. That's why I'm here.

 

[6] Thanks, man. I am hurting. I really do love this special person. But she's sleeping with another man -- and yes, I hear some of ya saying that's what I'm doing to my wife. And I agree. That's part of the hurt, too. And yes there was a ton of DRAMA to that story, but I couldn't tell it all. And won't. But it's nothing to the drama of the whole story of everything. I had no idea it would turn into all of this, no way I could have even predicted 1% of it.

 

[7] I've wondered about this a lot. Is my special person a nice person or just an abusive thing, mean as a snake? She's both. Actually she's seriously great to the world. I've told her this, a hundred times. She gives random strangers things and money. She goes way out of her way to help people. She's concerned about people in far away lands. She strives to live honestly. She is loved and returns love to everyone she meets (some more than others, a fact.) But she became extremely abusive to me. I'm the only person on earth who knows how cruel and abusive she can be. And it's off the charts. I'm not comfortable yet detailing those things, mostly out of personal embarrassment that I would still hang around and love her as I do. What's wrong with me? Nobody would believe me if I just left the facts out and described her by the labels "abusive" "paranoid" "conspiratorial" "cruel" "mendacious" "prosecutorial". But it's all true.

 

[8] I will never tell my spouse a thing. I now know it all to have been meaningless. A stupid ass mistake. That I made everyday for years. Why saddle her with that? I'm telling you, I am almost positive she'd forgive me. I know her and you don't. So please. Give me a bit of slack on that. Course, I may be wrong, too. I was wrong about my special person, even though I always did know.

 

[9] Yeah. I know of hostility borne of heartache. I am not an angel in this thing, of course. Because I cheated on my wife. But she and I are always, nearly unfailingly respectful of each other. But to my special person, I said very very very harsh things as I tried to stop what I believed to be, but she always denied as, her infidelities to me. But that was just a fraction of my verbally abusive reactions. The balance came as she mindlessly accused me of the worst things on earth, without any evidence, because none could possibly exist. It was just weird how she'd come up with these beyond bizarre scenarios. Purely crazy. Logic, empiricism, reality -- not in play.

[Leo the Homely Lion]

there are a lot of women who were cheated on by their husbands on this forum as well as women who have been promised things by the men who were married that they fell in love with.

 

Overall, there is a lot of back and forth between both sides of women and the men who post here tend to feel it a lot- at least that is my perspective thus far.

 

Interesting to hear your story and thoughts on both your wife and the other woman you loved.

 

I do think the other woman probably just got plain old tired of never being more than a side dish. Even if she wasn't in your mind, she probably felt like that.

 

Sorry you are sad.

 

Thanks for your thoughtful response. That makes sense. As for my special someone thinking she was my side dish, nah. Looking back, knowing what I know now, she played me. I was her dollop of peas. She's moved on -- since 2009, I'm guessing. But I learned the truth from her, for the first time, tonight, on Valentine's Day, despite my semi-repeated requests, that yes, she's taken on a second lover. The timing's part of her abusive cycle, as someone pointed out, and I think that's undeniable. Thing is, I'm still crushed. I am really really really not normal. And it bugs me.

[Catplates]

I would think a man who chose to stay with his wife after 5 years was lying to me too. In fact I did after 4 years.

 

I can see her point of view.

 

Just how long did you expect her to sit in the back seat and wait for a real life??????

 

It was what I felt after a tumultuous 4 years also, except I told xMM I no longer wanted to be in that position. Once my rose coloured glasses came off, I regretted the lost time for a couple of days and now think about him very little.

 

She probably put her life on hold for you for a very long time and finally got weary of it.

 

How special are you...

 

Cat

[Lillyfree]

I would still view what the OW did as cheating on the OP because they had an understanding (I think?) that they were only with each other (besides their respective spouses).

 

My ex-MM and I were exclusive together. Completely. Apart from our existing relationships. One time he got a bit weird and very worried that I was texting some other guy friends during "our" text time at night. I was definitely not, as this was OUR time and I cherished it completely, as did he. We discussed it and were fine after that. But yeah, if he'd been texting other women during our time (or at all), I would've freaked out too.

 

see bolded. you weren't exclusive, and that's the point i'm trying to make regarding OP's situation. he wasn't exclusive with OW, what right does he have to expect her to be exclusive? maybe she was looking for another, exclusive relationship - and she would have every right to.

 

btw, in general terms, i believe that when you're in an affair you aren't faithful to either your spouse OR the AP. hard to look for virtue in that sort of situation.

[Leo the Homely Lion]

If only you could get the physical intimacy! Go to a sex counselor. The marriage sounds worth fighting for. I have heard that one way to get your sex life back is to just do it.

 

Thanks, Eggplant. About every, I dunno, seven months, I'll see some Internet pop up that says exactly that advice. Just do it. Just decide you're going to try to have sex and then it'll work.

 

Ugh. I just can't.

 

I must sound so weird. But to look at us, you'd think we were normal! Maybe even above normal.

 

As much as I wish that could be, just go through the motions and engender a good sex life -- oh my life would be so perfect -- it can never be done that way. Just can't. And I can't explain why. If I could explain it, if I had even a clue, I would explain it.

 

I'm curious, though. What if I'd come onto this board when everything was great with me and my special person? Why does everyone seem to assume that the "bad decision" is to be with the OW? What if my bad decision was in marrying? What makes one decision worse than the other? Yes there are vows. But I'm saying once the decision to marry is made, the vows are a given. Can't people make a simple (but hugely crucial, critical, gargantuan) mistake -- and not be the evil guy?

 

Is there not room in this world for a simple but complicated mistake?

 

Don't we make mistakes all the time?

 

I'm not trying to trivialize marriage here, so please hear me fairly.

 

I believe in marriage, believe it or not. I mean, I married because I believed I owed my wife my life. And I do. And so I did.

 

But that doesn't mean I married her for the obviously wrong reasons any more than anyone else here could say they were deeply in love and then it all went to heck. What better reasons are there to marry than deep love -- and yet that falls apart all the time.

 

I believe I owed her. My motivation was right. But maybe I made a mistake thinking that was sufficient, do you hear what I'm inarticulately trying to say?

 

If so, then why is the OW always the bad guy -- if a human mistake was made by me and she's the solution?

 

Sadly, I found out for sure, today, on Valentine's Day, by her single, solitary admission that she'd cheated on me, though I'd suspected and always "known" she'd cheated on me, that she's not the solution.

 

Still, are you all saying that the OW can never be in the right?

 

What if a dude married Tot Mom, or whatever her real name is, and then said, Whoa! I'm out! Nobody's gonna argue against that, but doesn't it start a legitimate slippery slope???

[Leo the Homely Lion]

I haven't read everything, I can't, it nauseates me. It's Malfunction Junction!

 

Seems you got a little bit more than you bargained for with your off the wall ow and I can't begin to comprehend why you would marry someone that you barely had any sex with and then not have sex the whole time you've been married........and seriously........it's never been discussed?

 

So......what do you plan to do? You didn't ask me........but you ought to tell your wife what a seedy thing you've done to her, then pack up and leave. Get yourself some help, cause you need it.

 

Hey LadyGrey, thanks for your response. This forum is new to me, just been on it for not even half a day. And already I can discern the vague backgrounds of who's been hurt in what way. I'm sorry for your pain, I really am, and that's precisely why I will probably never tell my wife about what I did. I mean, there's a lot of bitterness and vitriol and judgment on this forum. Whether you're entitled to those feelings is not for me to judge, but I can see them.

 

What pleases me most about your post is that you basically said you were "nauseated". Good usage! People are "nauseous" only when they have that affect on other people, otherwise they are "nauseated."

 

Well I'm sorry I make you sick. I know I have troubles. It's not helpful for you to tell me that the troubles I know I have make you wanna puke.

 

If I didn't know I had troubles I wouldn't be here.

 

And, this is my fault, I didn't make my facts clear, but no, it's not that I barely had sex with my wife before marriage. We were young and very sexual, of course. Then the engagement wore on, and though still somewhat young, it all just came to a stop, by my call -- and if I knew why I had made that call, I'd undo it the best I could.

 

While I don't think using phrases like "seedy thing you've done to her" are particularly helpful, I get the feeling they make you feel pretty good as you work out your own issues. Maybe I'm wrong. Not the first time, won't be the last. But try to be helpful, please -- not UNDULY condemning.

 

And yes, my "OW" as you call her and say is definitely "off the wall." But the thing is, and I don't know how I could ever know this, but I do: she's only that way with me. I mean, when I'm not around her, how could I know, right? But she's just got this thing with me, where she's NUTS. And I think I can see what she really is -- which isn't nuts. I know, weird, and now you need some Tums. But I do believe that. She is also very very very smart, gorgeous, funny, selfless. I see that. But man, when it comes to me, she's a hornet on roids.

 

Thanks for your response, though, you nauseated person.

[Mint Sauce]

was there any time, early on in your relationship with your wife, a period where you did feel a desire to sleep with her, but she rejected you?

 

I married my wife after the relationship had been sexless for a while, and we never consummated our marriage. We were sexless for about 4 years. So, in a way, I can relate.

 

However, I do remember a period of implicit (and explicit if I raised the topic) rejection, which eventually lead me to see her as a non-sexual creature, for which I could not feel sexual desire (self-protection?). She was everything else I wanted, so I guess that fortified a madonna-whore complex in me.

 

Of course, my sexual drive resurfaced in full force when I met my OW...

 

My point is: a healthy man doesn't feel "no attraction" to a beautiful woman he loves. There must be some mechanism at play which shuts you down with your wife.

[Leo the Homely Lion]

Why are you afraid to open up and speak to your wife? You two never speak of it. Sorry but that's odd. So you both have communication issues when it comes to the bedroom.

 

Your marriage is doomed if you don't get counseling. And don't assume she won't go! You don't know because you don't speak to her about intimacy!

 

Sorry about your mom. Fricken cancer..Took my father.

 

Why not talk about the lack of intimacy with my wife? I don't know. She doesn't talk about it with me, either. It's just like the wheels fell off and the stagecoach kept rolling down the hill and there's no going going back now.

 

I've been with her forever. We have lived in this situation forever. And that's what makes it so hard to bring up now -- and also makes me think my marriage is not doomed without counseling. Not that it's advisable to NOT get counseling -- of course it is. But man, I am speaking her anonymously (I hope) and I can't tell you guys what the deal is. How would I do that before her and a counselor? But I don't think she'd have any problem, she'd be willing to see a counselor, I'm positive. I'd go too, I have no stigma, I just don't think it'd work because it-is-not-there. For whatever reason.

 

Thank you sincerely for your condolences about my mom's cancer. And I'm very sorry about you dad. It's an awful disease, and so is the cure! Not to derail the thread but would you share what kind of cancer your dad had? My mom has ade nocarcinoma and it spread to her livver. Then it was diagnosed.

[waterwoman]

Your affair is over, dramatically and unpleasantly by the sounds of it. That is what prompted you to come here?

 

Your marriage is still in existence, although to most of us I guess it doesn't seem like much of a marriage.

 

So what did you want to hear from LS? What can anyone do but offer opinions and advice on your remaining relationship? What did you want from us?

[Leo the Homely Lion]

was there any time, early on in your relationship with your wife, a period where you did feel a desire to sleep with her, but she rejected you?

 

I married my wife after the relationship had been sexless for a while, and we never consummated our marriage. We were sexless for about 4 years. So, in a way, I can relate.

 

However, I do remember a period of implicit (and explicit if I raised the topic) rejection, which eventually lead me to see her as a non-sexual creature, for which I could not feel sexual desire (self-protection?). She was everything else I wanted, so I guess that fortified a madonna-whore complex in me.

 

Of course, my sexual drive resurfaced in full force when I met my OW...

 

My point is: a healthy man doesn't feel "no attraction" to a beautiful woman he loves. There must be some mechanism at play which shuts you down with your wife.

 

Very astute, Mint Sauce. And very close. I think of it more often than you'd think, if that makes sense.

 

But yes, there was a time early on when she rejected me in a way. It's so minor that I can't discuss it in detail, it seems so petty. But I have thought of it often. You may be on to something.

 

I'll say this. She wanted to have sex. So did I. We did, and in the course of that fine endeavor, she did something very very very sexually vanilla and pedestrian and common place -- it was no big deal, happens probably 99% of the time younger people have sex. But she said, Yuck. I've never forgotten that but we had sex again and a few more times, but that was it. I wonder if that's what the deal is??? Thank you Mint Sauce.

[seren]

Leo, you may have explained, so apologies if you have already, but I wanted to ask if you wanted to rekindle or even begin an intimate or sexual relationship with your wife and if you have or indeed have not, what next?

 

I can understand how difficult it must be to be stuck in a routine and maybe assign, 'that's the way it is' labels to your marriage. Maybe counselling specific to couples with a sexually dysfunctional relationship would be helpful and maybe you have already said that you don't want that. I have also missed if your wife knows about the A and that if you had thought that she too should be given the opportunity to have her sexual needs met outside your marriage.

 

If you don't and will never feel attracted to her sexually and she already knows that, maybe your having an A won't be such a surprise, maybe she would be open to an open marriage or to seek her satisfaction elsewhere. Until the subject is broached then you just don't know what her answer will be. I don't think anyone can force sexual attraction, but often a helping hand (no pun intended) can be the kickstart to an intimate relationship. Maybe wooing her, seeing her as a woman and not your wife or friend, romancing would help. IDK maybe you have already answered and maybe you have already tried. I just don't think A's are ever the way to fix something that is broken to replace something that you aren't getting from another at the expense of truth. It all sounds rather empty and hollow, which is a sad way to live.

[Leo the Homely Lion]

i'm sorry to hear about your marriage. obviously a nice long talk with your wife, followed by MC and IC is in order. i hope you get to where you want to be in your marriage.

 

as far as the OW... i can't really see how what she is doing is 'cheating'. you weren't committed to her, why would she be committed to you? if you wanted an exclusive relationship with her you would have divorced your wife and gone to her.

but no. you were happy to have your safe, tame, comfortable relationship at home and the A for thrills.

 

not excusing the OW behaviour (i am against any sort of abuse) and she seems a bit on the wild side, but that's exactly what you wanted. or you would have finished it with her. again, see the madonna-whore complex.

 

I hear you, Lillyfree, but I gotta disagree. My special person and I had a deal. When we first met, she was married and separated (she would divorce about a year into our affair) and we agreed to be exclusive to the other. The deal was, if you want out, just tell the other person BEFORE you sleep with another. That's important because ya know it's cordial. And it helps protect against diseases, right?

 

Plus she spoke and so did I about how how this was the attraction of our lives and weren't we just the cat's pajamas -- and we seriously did have a "no cheating" clause, as it were. And an honesty clause, saying you just had to tell the other before it happened with a third.

 

That's why when she broke the news to me yesterday, on Valentine's Day, it was a big deal beyond the other reasons. It was her obligation. But see, we'd broken up 150 times easy. And now she's parsing the dude she's with now as occurring outside the break up. Multiply that by 150 and you can see she has a little wriggle room.

 

I told her I did not sleep with my wife, and wouldn't -- and I didn't.

 

She wasn't to sleep with other dudes. Geez. Unless she told me ahead of time. She never did. She told me after the fact -- one of which I painfully and barely forgave; the second, was today, Valentine's Day, which is unforgivable, as I'd forewarned her.

 

I believe there were as many as dozen others. I don't want to get into the reasons I believe that because 1) it makes me look very stupid in hindsight, and I don't really like looking that way; and 2) I just know, and you guys can just take my word for it for why else would I say such a thing, it doesn't exactly make me look bright, so it must be true or at least I believe it to be.

 

And yet I still feel I love her. We'll see how it is in a couple of days, but I must say, this board has really helped me. I feel great compared to when I first logged on here 12 hours ago or so. I think I'm making strides to putting this betrayal behind me that I wouldn't have made absent you guys, so thanks.

 

And yes, I hear some of you, who am I to complain about betrayal when I cheated on my wife. Again, a chubby doctor can legitimately tell a chubby patient to lose weight. Hypocrisy isn't ALWAYS the relevant thing. It's surely a consideration.

[Mint Sauce]

But she said, Yuck. I've never forgotten that but we had sex again and a few more times, but that was it. I wonder if that's what the deal is???

 

The cliche is that we men are very robust when it comes to sexuality. It doesn't work that way for all of us though. That small glimpse of aversion towards the more "dirty" aspects of sex may have been enough for you to hold your horses.

 

How was your OW in comparison? Did you experience relief?

[Leo the Homely Lion]

I would think a man who chose to stay with his wife after 5 years was lying to me too. In fact I did after 4 years.

 

I can see her point of view.

 

Just how long did you expect her to sit in the back seat and wait for a real life??????

 

It was what I felt after a tumultuous 4 years also, except I told xMM I no longer wanted to be in that position. Once my rose coloured glasses came off, I regretted the lost time for a couple of days and now think about him very little.

 

She probably put her life on hold for you for a very long time and finally got weary of it.

 

How special are you...

 

Cat

 

"How special are you..."? Really? Is that sort of gratuitous dig helpful to anything but an issue personal to you? I'm not digging on people here, so I don't know why I should be dug like that.

 

Onward.

 

No, the fact that our affair lasted five years does not translate to I'm lying. I mean, lying about what, do you think? Everything, as she thought? Marriage, as you seem to imply?

 

Wrong on either end.

 

I never promised her anything like that. Just to be truthful and faithful, which I was.

 

There was one time, and it's come up, when I thought things were getting very good and I thought about leaving my marriage for her, until she up and went ape wild. I have no idea what her deal was that time, or most of the times. She'd just wig, for, HONESTLY, no reason I could ever figure.

 

But we broke up. And I mentioned to her that was too bad, and I gave an indication I don't want to mention here that divorce was seriously contemplated. She comes back at me, believing that this was a "trick" -- she ended up doing that, reading stuff about other married men and what they did and then she'd just apply that to me as if it was a given. They're like that; ipso facto, I'm like that. It was nuts.

 

It's like she profiled me. It's really a sort of thinking akin to racist thinking: I heard or read about a certain type of person who does this -- and that means YOU do. It was nonsense. I really never lied to her. And I didn't promise her a thing other than fidelity and truth.

 

Plus, you're giving her the benefit of the doubt, that she was waiting for me.

 

Nah, she wasn't waiting for nobody, man.

 

It's only becoming clear to me recently, which prompted my coming to this board.

 

I think she cheated on me many times, though I can prove only two. Funny. "Only" two. But today's revelation of the second ended the relationship; though, to be fair, she'd probably say my "best" friend's announcement to the bar of our affair ended the affair, which was nothing *I* did -- giving her free rein to do what she wanted. But you know, we talked a lot after that and she still should've told me she was sleeping with some dude long before she dropped it on me yesterday, Valentine's Day for Pete's sake.

 

So anyway, that's my opinion. And I might be wrong. Don't think so though. Or I wouldn't've written it.

[Leo the Homely Lion]

The cliche is that we men are very robust when it comes to sexuality. It doesn't work that way for all of us though. That small glimpse of aversion towards the more "dirty" aspects of sex may have been enough for you to hold your horses.

 

How was your OW in comparison? Did you experience relief?

 

Insightful. Yeah, it was more like a lack of acceptance, though we may be talking about the same thing.

 

I hear your point on the OW comparison. It's a good one. But I'll consider that privately. Not to be coy or shy or whatever. Besides, it's time for me to get a little more sleep. I appreciate your questions and points; they're very helpful. Thank you, bro. I appreciate your advice and guidance.

[Leo the Homely Lion]

 

[1] Hmmmm, lets see. You state that you didn't really want to marry your wife and you did anyway because you owed it to her?

 

[2] So you are saying you married her and lead her to believe you were madly, truly, honestly in love with her but you weren't ?

 

[3] If that's the case then you ARE what you claim to hate, a liar.

 

[4] What exactly did you gain from marrying someone that you didn't really want to marry to begin with? And did you think that by marrying someone you didn't really want that you would live a perfect and passion filled marriage?

 

[1] You sound a tad edgy. Just cooool on down and help a fellow citizen out, huh? The amount of transference on this board is amazing. Anyway. No I didn't state that. I stated or implied that I overcame a long lack of enthusiasm for marriage by realizing that I loved her and truly felt I owed her. I loved her and I owed her and so I married her. That was my math; that's how this society works.

 

[2] No. I am not saying that.

 

[3] Wrong again. I know you're angry at someone, I just don't know why it's me. I just got here, man. You don't even know me. I'm not going all snide on anyone, don't know why you think you should me. But hey, if it makes you feel better, guess what? I've got almost five years' experience at this. And let me tell ya, you're an amateur compared to what my special person could do. Which is a good thing. So good you should put it on your resume.

 

[4] Your conclusion here's invalid as you missed your premises 1-3, above.

 

I do appreciate your response though. But I think it was more for you, than me.

[dreamingoftigers]

I do appreciate everyone's responses. And I'll address them after I eat some supper. But I must say I'm struck by the somewhat uniform hostility in tone. What produces that?

 

I am enthusiastically waiting until morning to respond further on this thread.

 

Bedtime got disrupted by a cute 3 year old.

 

My goodness.

 

You are aware that you are total conflict-avoidant, right?

[Lillyfree]

I hear you, Lillyfree, but I gotta disagree. My special person and I had a deal. When we first met, she was married and separated (she would divorce about a year into our affair) and we agreed to be exclusive to the other. The deal was, if you want out, just tell the other person BEFORE you sleep with another. That's important because ya know it's cordial. And it helps protect against diseases, right?

 

Plus she spoke and so did I about how how this was the attraction of our lives and weren't we just the cat's pajamas -- and we seriously did have a "no cheating" clause, as it were. And an honesty clause, saying you just had to tell the other before it happened with a third.

 

That's why when she broke the news to me yesterday, on Valentine's Day, it was a big deal beyond the other reasons. It was her obligation. But see, we'd broken up 150 times easy. And now she's parsing the dude she's with now as occurring outside the break up. Multiply that by 150 and you can see she has a little wriggle room.

 

I told her I did not sleep with my wife, and wouldn't -- and I didn't.

 

She wasn't to sleep with other dudes. Geez. Unless she told me ahead of time. She never did. She told me after the fact -- one of which I painfully and barely forgave; the second, was today, Valentine's Day, which is unforgivable, as I'd forewarned her.

 

I believe there were as many as dozen others. I don't want to get into the reasons I believe that because 1) it makes me look very stupid in hindsight, and I don't really like looking that way; and 2) I just know, and you guys can just take my word for it for why else would I say such a thing, it doesn't exactly make me look bright, so it must be true or at least I believe it to be.

 

And yet I still feel I love her. We'll see how it is in a couple of days, but I must say, this board has really helped me. I feel great compared to when I first logged on here 12 hours ago or so. I think I'm making strides to putting this betrayal behind me that I wouldn't have made absent you guys, so thanks.

 

And yes, I hear some of you, who am I to complain about betrayal when I cheated on my wife. Again, a chubby doctor can legitimately tell a chubby patient to lose weight. Hypocrisy isn't ALWAYS the relevant thing. It's surely a consideration.

 

 

if you only knew what i got when i first posted here... but sometimes the harshest comments are those that help the most.

at least that's what happened in my case.

 

unfortunately, there aren't many MM here from what i can see. or at least, they don't stick around for long.

see every post, no matter how blunt, as an attempt to help. as people here wouldn't be wasting their time replying if they didn't care.

 

i see that you had an understanding with OW about no 'cheating'. but, from everything you said about her, she's an intelligent, outgoing, caring person. except with you.

 

did you ever consider that she might not be happy with this arrangement and the reason why she lashes out is because she sees herself as worth more than what you're giving her?

[ComingInHot]

Leo,

I think what has gotten under my skin is the lack of communication w/your Wife.

 

It's difficult sometimes to tell your partner that they are contributing to something that is lacking in the M/Relationship.

There is that underlying fear that they will be hurt, offended and/or defensive stopping an honest conversation in its tracks.

Yet the diologue still needs to happen in order for the relationship to be healthy, grow, get better.

It takes work & vulnerability but the rewards far out way the other possibilities like, resentmentment, discourse, CHEATING...

 

To me, a "real man" takes responsibility for his house and all in it. He takes charge and leads is family (in your case, wife) in creating a strong healthy relationship. He's Not afraid to address and resolve any issues getting in the way of that. He is a protector of the marriage. His strength of character shines SO bright that ALL can see he puts his family First.

 

The above is attractive to many women. Even half of these qualities make most women swoon which may be why OW's are drawn to you.

I see , from your posts, that you are missing one vital trait to what I consider a "real man". But that's just me**

[spice4life]

I am enthusiastically waiting until morning to respond further on this thread.

 

Bedtime got disrupted by a cute 3 year old.

 

My goodness.

 

You are aware that you are total conflict-avoidant, right?

 

This! ^^^ Dreaming, you took the words right out of my mouth.

 

Leo, what type of advice are you actually looking for? Maybe you should seriously take a look at why you are in a sexless marriage and chose to have an affair instead of addressing the issue directly with your wife. Having an affair is definitely a symptom of someone who avoids conflict at all cost. Once you choose to deal with things directly you will be quite surprised that it really isn't that difficult. You will wonder why you waited so long!...because confronting issues makes life sooo much easier.

 

as for your OW, I dunno about that one. It is apparent that you need to do some introspection though. It could very well be that your conflict avoidant issues helped create the dynamic between the two of you. Take a look at yourself honestly before casting her in a a bad light. If you're used to living with things without rocking the boat, you may have been passive agressively triggering her behavior. I'm not saying she is right in how she treated you, but you may have contributed to the dynamic more than you are actually aware.

 

Good luck to you. I hope you figure things out.

[GreySkyMorning]

Wow, if I didn't know better, I'd think you were my MM. The similarities are uncanny. We've been together for 19 months now.

 

You honestly are mad at her and see her as this crazy woman because you feel she's been unfaithful to you, while you've been completely loyal to her??? MM does the same thing to me. And every now and then, I get sick of the crap and there's a blow up. You haven't been faithful to her at all. Regardless of whether you're having sex, you're still sleeping next to another woman every single night. You kiss another woman and tell her that you love her. You share private moments with another woman. You go to dinner, whatever else. All of that is intimacy that you're sharing with someone else. Yet you expect your OW to spend her nights sleeping alone, to not have that companionship with anyone but you, to wait patiently for her turn from you. And when she says that's not fair, that you've essentially been cheating on her from the first day of your relationship, you use her anger as justification to portray her as nuts and whatever else you've called her on here.

 

You ARE a liar. I would consider someone who lies continuously every single day to be a liar and that's what you do. You are lying to your wife every moment that she believes you are a faithful honest husband.

[Janesays]

I think the OP really just like playing the victim. It's impossible to reason with a martyr. All they want is pats on the head and murmurs of, "there, there."

[Pierre]

To the original poster:

 

I am concerned that your wife is not interested in having sex with you. And now -----------your OW.

 

 

Men need to turn women on to have sex. Perhaps, you have a behavior that turns the women off.

 

Men often say they would like more sex, but fail to realize that they do not know how to meet the emotional needs of the female---------and this is key for a good sex life.

[Leo the Homely Lion]

Wow, if I didn't know better, I'd think you were my MM. The similarities are uncanny. We've been together for 19 months now.

 

[1] You honestly are mad at her and see her as this crazy woman because you feel she's been unfaithful to you, while you've been completely loyal to her???

 

[2] Regardless of whether you're having sex, you're still sleeping next to another woman every single night.

 

[3] Yet you expect your OW to spend her nights sleeping alone, to not have that companionship with anyone but you, to wait patiently for her turn from you.

 

[4] And when she says that's not fair, that you've essentially been cheating on her from the first day of your relationship, you use her anger as justification to portray her as nuts and whatever else you've called her on here.

 

[5] You ARE a liar. I would consider someone who lies continuously every single day to be a liar and that's what you do. You are lying to your wife every moment that she believes you are a faithful honest husband.

 

[1] I love how the jilted spouses and the other women all bring their own method to it here. In particular, I love how you cushion this to make the OW sound so p a s s i v e. You say I "see" her as this "crazy woman" because "I" "feel" she's been unfaithful to me. How to unpack this. First, it's not a matter of sight, which can fail; I know she's been nutso and know she's been unfaithful, at least twice, including dropping the news on me personally, on Valentine's Day, for the first time in almost five years, despite my previous inquiries. Second, she can be nuts, for sure -- but I didn't call her a "crazy woman" -- that's your tack to try to water down the reliability of my narrative. Finally, it's not that "I" "feel" she's been unfaithful. She has been. Period.

 

[2] You are assuming facts not in evidence. Fancy speak for, you are wrong.

 

[3] You probably missed it. She and I had a deal. Exclusivity. With an opt out at any time so long as the opting party informs the other prior to any sexual dalliance. So your statement, though provocative, and probably fun to write, is irrelevant.

 

[4] No. You've conjured a straw man. No such dynamic's occurred. Again irrelevant.

 

[5] "You ARE a liar". Pretty emphatic there. Not sure if your shrill CAPS means you think I am capable of a lie or tell nothing but lies. Your use of "continuously" in the second sentence would suggest you think I'm the latter. If I lie on a job application, and get hired based on that lie, is everything I do at the workplace a lie? No. If I don't tell my wife about my affair, does that mean everything I say is a lie? Look, studies show that most people lie dozens of times every day. But I don't think even you'd say most people "ARE liars". What if I tell the truth 99.999% of the day? Which is about right for me. What kind of liar tells the truth almost 100% of the time? Sure you could make the point that by my failure to tell my wife about my affair, that failure is this big blanket of time that runs seamlessly throughout the weeks months and years, making me a constant liar. Okay, if that's the way you want to play it, fine. I see it as this: I'm a truthful person almost 100% of the time, with the exception of my failure to tell my wife about the affair. That doesn't make me a liar. That makes me someone whose day includes telling an enormously small percentage of lies. Just like you. In fact, the way you phrased my stances above is dishonest, as I pointed out. Dishonest, well that may be too harsh a word, so I'll take it back. But you have a position and you want that position to prevail -- and so you padded and cushioned and said such things as I "felt" her to be a "crazy woman" and "unfaithful". I never felt any such thing. I knew one and never said the other. Ya see what I'm trying to say in this little workshop? Thanks for your post, though. Honestly I do appreciate it and your last point made me stop and think -- a dangerous thing for me.

[Leo the Homely Lion]

To the original poster:

 

I am concerned that your wife is not interested in having sex with you. And now -----------your OW.

 

 

Men need to turn women on to have sex. Perhaps, you have a behavior that turns the women off.

 

Men often say they would like more sex, but fail to realize that they do not know how to meet the emotional needs of the female---------and this is key for a good sex life.

 

Right! I'm the only man in America who's at once in a sexless marriage and a sexless affair! And my spouse and special person would never believe that claim as told by me about the other! But it's true.

 

I hear your concern, but in my marriage, I'm the stopper to the sex. She doesn't even try any more. I'd be the happiest man in the world if I could just go. But I can.not.do.it. No idea why, just know it's not anything I can do.

 

With my erstwhile cheating nutso beautiful dishonest selfless special person, what killed us, and as said in my inaugural post, was the public announcement of our affair in a bar by my "best" friend. It was humiliating, shaming, mortifying. What a betrayal, man, but that's another topic. And my special person and I have not been able to recover. She believes, at once irrationally and rationally, that if it happened once, it could happen again. But maybe 16 hours earlier, we had some pretty f'n cool sex.

 

So, though I see the off the rack psychological theory you seek to apply to my situation, but it's inapposite. Good guess, though. I can see why you'd think that. But it's really not germane.

 

 

btw, MY Tab says hi.