A question for religious people?

[Eclypse]

I've got a couple of questions for people who follow specific faiths (I'm thinking about Christianity mainly, although others are welcome to answer).

 

I was raised in a family of non-believers, and I myself am a non believer, although if I asked I guess you could say I'm officially a non-practising Christian due to my heritage. Anyway, my questions are mainly about heaven and hell.

 

Basically, is it possible for a non believer who has lived a good life to go to heaven (if such a thing exists, and it might). I like to think of myself as a pretty good guy. I love my family and friends. I take care of my girlfriend. She's the only girl I've had sex with and the only person I can imagine myself being with. I don't smoke or do drugs or cheat (in any aspect in life). I try and be polite to everyone. Is it possible for someone who has lived a life of "Christian" values, but doesn't believe in God (until he dies and finds out!) to ascend to heaven? Or will someone like this be banished? What are the alternatives? Is hell really full of fire and brimstone, and would I be sent there among the Adolf Hitler's, Lizzie Borden's and so forth? Or is there another place, like the Plains of Ashphodel (Greek Underworld), where indifferent souls who are probably not good enough for heaven, but not evil enough for the brimstone lined depths of hell (or Tartarus) spend their eternity in this very boring, although unpleasant place? Perhaps there are different versions of hell for everyone?

[will1988]

I grew up in a conservative Roman Catholic family. I was baptized, had my first confession and holy comunion, and was even confirmed. I went through sunday school in grade school, and then Junior High School and Early high school I went to Wednsday night RE classes. I was then confirmed and joined the high school youth group for another year. However, I never felt the "spark" so to speak. I never believed. I went through a phase where I tried forcing myself to believe, and became ultra catholic, but deep down I knew I was lying to myself. When I turned 18 and went to College I stopped going to church all together, and when I was home on breaks I refused to go to church. This upsetted my family. When I eventually told them I don't consider myself to be a Catholic, but instead an agnostic my family flipped sh*t. I imagine what my family did to me is similar to what homosexual kids go through when coming out to their overly conservative parents. I was told I was going to hell etc.. to this day, 6 years later every time my family talks about religion I know I'm in for a fight. It is in my nature to speak my mind. This makes things worse. I've learned now to try to avoid the subject like the plague. Because not only do I get yelled it, it causes problems within my family. My step mom is an evengelical so you can see how that works with a family of Catholics. lol.

 

Anyway, very long answer made shorter. I live a good life. I do drink, but only in moderation. I do smoke ciggs, heavily. I have never done drugs. I have never stolen anything. I've actually never cheated on a person or a test/class. I don't lie behind people's back. I'm not perfect by any means. I'm loyal to my family, friends, and my LTR. However, I live a more moral life than most self proclaimed Christians. For example my step cousin (my step mom's niece) who I'm friends with, is super evangelical. She thumps the bible when ever she can and where ever she can. But guess what? She's been knocked up by two random guys of different races (not that that is a problem. she is white. one of her kids is half white half black, the other which will be born soon will be half white and half hispanic). She is in her mid 20s but still lives at home and leaches off of her family and friends to be mothers to her child, and for money. She is an alcoholic etc... Otherwise, she is actually a good person. However, ever time she posts something on facebook proclaiming all atheist and anyone non Christian is going to hell a part of me wants to cause drama and tell her the old verse of "to see the splinter in someone else's eye, is to miss the log in yours". Therefore, I personally believe that if you are a good person and live a moral lifestyle, regardless of whether your worship Jesus, Budha, Muhammed, a pile of cow dung, or nothing at all, you will go to a better place when you die.

 

all of this is IMHO

[TaraMaiden]

Basically, is it possible for a non believer who has lived a good life to go to heaven (if such a thing exists, and it might).

 

<huge Snip>

 

Perhaps there are different versions of hell for everyone?

 

We don't get asked the question very much, because nobody can really answer it to any degree of what you might view as satisfactory.

 

Neither Heaven, nor Hell is a place, anywhere, it's what we voluntarily put ourselves through, day in and day out.... we create our own.

 

Read:

 

An enlightened lama sat on his zafu and one of his disciples came to him.

"Master," he said, as he bowed, "there is a soldier at the gate who states he has travelled many months to seek an audience with you. He declares himself to be a great Overlord, but to look at him, well..... I'm not sure....."

 

The master bade his disciple admit the soldier.

 

When the door opened, a tall imposing man walked in, his sword by his side.

But he was filthy, dishevelled, was distinctly malodorous and had obviously been keeping the company of a good but well-ridden horse....his clothes carried a pervasive stench, and he had obviously not washed either them - or himself - for some time.

 

He stood before the Guru, and bowed, lightly.

"Master!" he boomed,"I have been travelling for many months to find you. I have sought you far and wide, and have journeyed for many weeks, without stopping, because, I seek the answer to a question posed to me by a prisoner I captured. My manservant, who had heard of your fame, informed me you have the answer I seek.

Tell me - What is Hell? and what is Heaven?"

 

The guru gazed up at him, with a calm countenance, then in a low voice, he replied,

 

"You filthy, stinking disgusting creature....! You dare to come before me, your sword by your side, smelling worse than a rotten pigsty, in this hallowed temple, and demand to know things which your empty, ignorant and stupid head cannot possibly ever comprehend?!? Get out of my sight! you are not even worthy to keep a dog company as it forages for scraps in garbage, such is your offensive stench!"

 

the Overlord, incensed and enraged by such an insolent and arrogant welcome, instinctively drew his sword, and swung it above his head, ready to strike a fatal blow.

 

"That, " quietly spoke the Guru, without flinching, "is Hell."

 

The Overlord was so stunned by this calm riposte, in the face of certain, swift and sudden death, that he was brought to a sudden halt, in mid-swing, so profound was his astonishment.

 

He calmly bought the sword down to his side....

 

"and that, "continued the Guru, a flicker of a smile fleeting across his face, "is Heaven."

 

 

Best we can do.

if you want to know for sure, watch your days, and how your Mind perceives the events that befall you.

How do you view them?

How do you evaluate them?

what do you think of their effect on you?

Only then, will you know.

[amaysngrace]

I am a practicing Catholic and teach.

 

I don't think anybody knows for sure who will go to Heaven and who won't. Anybody who says that with absolute certainty is arrogant and is playing God IMO.

[JamesM]

No one can say who will or won't go to Heaven, but we can say who will or won't based on the Bible.

 

No one is righteous enough to get into Heaven. Only those who believe on Jesus Christ and are saved by Him will get into Heaven.

Romans 3:10

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 

No one makes it into Heaven based on works. It is through grace alone that someone is saved.

Ephesians 2: 8 & 9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.

 

John 3:16 & 17 is one well known verse:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

That would be a Christian view.

[KathyM]

Every faith has their own beliefs about heaven and hell. The Christian faith believes that the only way to heaven is belief in God, acceptance of Christ as being the Son of God who reconciled us with God through taking the punishment for our sins, and lastly, repentance from sin.

 

As far as what hell is like, we really don't know for sure. Some say it is the absence of God for all eternity. Some say it is eternal suffering.

 

People don't earn their way to heaven. It can't be purchased through good works. It is a gift given by God to those who accept and follow Him.

[BetheButterfly]

I've got a couple of questions for people who follow specific faiths (I'm thinking about Christianity mainly, although others are welcome to answer).

 

I was raised in a family of non-believers, and I myself am a non believer, although if I asked I guess you could say I'm officially a non-practising Christian due to my heritage. Anyway, my questions are mainly about heaven and hell.

 

Basically, is it possible for a non believer who has lived a good life to go to heaven (if such a thing exists, and it might). I like to think of myself as a pretty good guy. I love my family and friends. I take care of my girlfriend. She's the only girl I've had sex with and the only person I can imagine myself being with. I don't smoke or do drugs or cheat (in any aspect in life). I try and be polite to everyone. Is it possible for someone who has lived a life of "Christian" values, but doesn't believe in God (until he dies and finds out!) to ascend to heaven? Or will someone like this be banished? What are the alternatives? Is hell really full of fire and brimstone, and would I be sent there among the Adolf Hitler's, Lizzie Borden's and so forth? Or is there another place, like the Plains of Ashphodel (Greek Underworld), where indifferent souls who are probably not good enough for heaven, but not evil enough for the brimstone lined depths of hell (or Tartarus) spend their eternity in this very boring, although unpleasant place? Perhaps there are different versions of hell for everyone?

 

As a Christian, one of my main questions is "How about the good people who are not Christians? What happens to them?"

 

C.S. Lewis' musings on the subject are very interesting.

 

To me, the Judaic idea of hell is very important, since Jesus is Jewish. The idea of hell in Jewish beliefs is very different than the ideas in Gentile beliefs that are heavily influenced with Greek and Roman thought. Because of that, I lean more towards the ideas of Judaism concerning hell.

 

I once asked a friend of mine, a wonderful Jewish Orthodox lady, why she didn't tell people about her beliefs. She said that one reason was because she said she believes that people do not have to be Jewish Orthodox in order to go to Heaven, and that those who are not Jewish Orthodox are not, in her belief, fated to be tortured forever. In the Tanakh, the concept of hell, or punishment after death, is not clearly defined.

 

This greatly intrigued me, because I personally do not think the concept of hell being a place where good people that are not of a specific belief is fair or loving at all. I personally believe God is loving. I personally believe the Gentile idea of hell is based on Hellenistic and Roman thought, instead of Judaism.

 

When reading what Jesus says about punishment (after death), he talks about it being for those who don't care about others: (See Matthew 25:31-46; Luke 16:19-31.) He doesn't mention those who don't believe in him or God.

 

Accounted in Matthew 5, Jesus talks about the possibility of hell for people who call someone "you fool!". (Matthew 5:21-22) It is interesting how he uses the hyperbole to show how important it is to not lust or steal. (Matthew 5:27-30).

 

One of the main sources, in my opinion, where it seems that Jesus considers unbelievers to be worthy of punishment (after death) is accounted in Luke 12, where it seems believers can also be punished after death too:

 

Luke 12

Luke 12 NIV - Warnings and Encouragements - Bible Gateway

"41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers."

 

In Acts, which accounts the early history of the church, the apostles and Paul did not use hell as a threat. They did not say that if the people didn't believe in Jesus, they would go to hell. In the first recorded "sermon" from a follower of Jesus, Peter did plead for the people to "save themselves from this corrupt generation" however, and I don't know about the "many other words" he used to warn them. However, in the recorded account, hell is not found:

 

Acts 2

Acts 2 NIV - The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost - Bible Gateway

"14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 “‘In the last days, God says,

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your young men will see visions,

your old men will dream dreams.

18 Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days,

and they will prophesy.

19 I will show wonders in the heavens above

and signs on the earth below,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.

20 The sun will be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood

before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

21 And everyone who calls

on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

 

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.

Because he is at my right hand,

I will not be shaken.

26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;

my body also will rest in hope,

27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,

you will not let your holy one see decay.

28 You have made known to me the paths of life;

you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e]

 

29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand

35 until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet.”’[f]

 

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day."

 

Now, in Revelation is mainly where the idea of people who are not "Christian" going to hell comes from, in my opinion, though personally I do not find that idea to be concretely stated, since "unbelieving" is vague if not specified.

 

Revelation 2

Revelation 21 NIV - A New Heaven and a New Earth - Then I - Bible Gateway

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

I have been sexual immoral and I have also lied but it is God's grace through Jesus that I believe saves me. I don't think God's grace through Jesus is for only the people who know about him and accept him. Because of my love for God, I strive to no longer be sexually immoral and I strive to tell the truth, as well I strive to not be cowardly, unbelieving, vile, a murderer, practice magic arts, and be an idolater. Regardless, I do indeed believe that God's grace takes into consideration all aspects of a person's life, and is a gift.

Edited February 13, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[TaraMaiden]

I contacted a person whom I know very well, who is emeritus professor of theology at a local University (We're talking BIG university town, here. No, big. Yeah, bigger.... )

 

and he sent me this (sorry, I'm quoting it as he wrote-ing it!):

 

Hell - as in the typical way it's understood - isn't a Bible teaching, it's a tool that's been used to get bums on pews and to tithe the church 10% of your income.

 

It was really a place called Gehenna, a physical place outside of Jerusalem where rubbish was dumped; and also the bodies of the dead criminals who'd been executed. Fires burnt there. Mummies would frighten their children into behaving by threatening them with, "If you don't behave, you'll end up in Gehenna!" and over time we have ended up with a place where we'll burn of all eternity if we don't believe '13 impossible things before breakfast'.

 

Not all Christian sects believe Hell is a physical place where we spend eternity if we masturbate.

[BetheButterfly]

I contacted a person whom I know very well, who is emeritus professor of theology at a local University (We're talking BIG university town, here. No, big. Yeah, bigger.... )

 

and he sent me this (sorry, I'm quoting it as he wrote-ing it!):

 

I agree with this, "It was really a place called Gehenna, a physical place outside of Jerusalem where rubbish was dumped; and also the bodies of the dead criminals who'd been executed. Fires burnt there."

 

When Jesus talked about what is translated in English as "hell", he was talking about Gehenna. I think that's really important. Jesus' idea of hell is different, in my opinion, than the Hellenistic and Roman ideas of hell.

[M30USA]

I contacted a person whom I know very well, who is emeritus professor of theology at a local University (We're talking BIG university town, here. No, big. Yeah, bigger.... )

 

and he sent me this (sorry, I'm quoting it as he wrote-ing it!):

 

My ex-wife made the same case to me, after she was visited by a group of Jehovah's Witnesses. I had her take a seat, we opened up the Bible, did a few searches...and after about 20 minutes even she admitted what they had told her was complete rubbish.

 

The Bible is filled with references to hell--not just symbolic references, but concrete references which clearly show that it's a physical place which is eternal. Jesus talked more about hell than he did heaven.

 

TaraMaiden, I strongle suggest that you get a Biblical concordance and simply do a search for the following terms:

 

1) hell

2) lake of fire

3) hades

4) tartarus

5) everlasting fire

 

Honestly, if you can do what I just asked and STILL believe hell isn't supported by the Bible, I'll rest my case.

[pie2]

I like to think of myself as a pretty good guy.

 

If you are completely free of sin, you will go to heaven.

 

Is it possible for someone who has lived a life of "Christian" values, but doesn't believe in God (until he dies and finds out!) to ascend to heaven? Or will someone like this be banished? What are the alternatives?...is there another place, like the Plains of Ashphodel (Greek Underworld), where indifferent souls who are probably not good enough for heaven, but not evil enough for the brimstone lined depths of hell (or Tartarus) spend their eternity in this very boring, although unpleasant place? Perhaps there are different versions of hell for everyone

 

There is no biblical evidence that there are different 'levels' of hell.

 

Why would you settle for the possibility of an "unpleasant but boring" hell, anyway? Why don't you aspire to go to heaven? It's a simple proposition: Admit you have sin in your life, and accept that Jesus died for you.

 

You say you're a good guy. What is stopping you from letting God's power, blessings, peace and love into your life now?

[TheFinalWord]

Basically, is it possible for a non believer who has lived a good life to go to heaven (if such a thing exists, and it might).

 

 

Good question. It's pretty cool that you are seeking, and God honors those that seek Him.

 

To answer your question, from a biblical perspective, if a person does accept Christ, there is no hope for salvation. If there were another way, Christ would have told us. Jesus asked for another way during His passion:

 

Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.” Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

 

If God did not give a way out to His own son, what do you think the chance for us is? I can tell you none, and the scriptures cannot be clearer on this matter. Christ said not what his will was, but what the Father's Will was. That still applies to us today. Will we adhere to God's Will or our will? Our choice.

 

Moreover, that choice has eternal consequences. The doctrine of hell is extremely unpopular, but Jesus spoke emphatically about it. If you are unsure of how seriously God takes sin, look at the cross. Christ was beaten, spit on, had his beard ripped out, whipped to the point of disfiguration, nailed and hung on the cross, and forsaken by the Father. The bible says if anyone denies the Christ they have made God a liar and will incur God’s wrath.

 

Continuing on with John 3, which JamesM listed above:

 

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God...The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”

 

Continuing with 1 John:

 

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

Here is a good movie to watch sometime if you are interested in learning more. It's the Gospel of John (they even make the movie available free). It's word for word from the English Standard Version of the bible.

 

The Gospel of John(2003)-CD1 - YouTube

Edited February 14, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[TaraMaiden]

M

TaraMaiden, I strongle suggest that you get a Biblical concordance and simply do a search for the following terms:

........

Honestly, if you can do what I just asked and STILL believe hell isn't supported by the Bible, I'll rest my case.

 

I fully concur that hell is supported by the Bible. Of course it is.

Why wouldn't it be.....?

 

But then, the Bible isn't a book I give any liberal credence to anyway, so why would that make any difference to me whatsoever....?

[BetheButterfly]

And all of that accurately sums up why I despise Christianity.

 

 

It's this idea that unless you have mindless, blind faith in something you'll get rewarded, even if you're a crap person, you'll get the reward. If you don't believe, for whatever reason, and lived a good life, were good to people and animals, and did the best with what you have, you'll be condemned to hell.

 

I don't believe heaven and hell are real places. But if I did, I'd say that was an unjust, and cruel system that makes it possible for the worst kinds of people to get "saved" and the best kinds of people to get "condemned," based off blind faith, not anything anyone personally did.

 

The idea that a supposedly all-loving god would send someone to an eternal torture chamber for a finite "crime" is ridiculous. That isn't an example of what someone loving would do. People often use a parent-child analogy-if the child does not follow their parents orders/will, they will be punished. However, if any parent decided that punishment was to take down into a basement and torture them for the rest of their lives, no one would call that loving. I'd call it evil.

 

Personal responsibility seems to mean nothing in the realms of Christianity, aside from...ya know, making sure you accept Christ.

 

I understand why you despise "Christianity."

 

However, that's why I personally have made the decision to focus on Jesus Christ.

 

Jesus Christ is amazing. Now, some people think he is a myth. Others understand that he truly lived but do not think he did miracles or is the Son of God, the Messiah that God promised King David in 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17.

 

Personally, I do believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and that through Him flows God's amazing love and grace onto all mankind, both Jews and Gentiles. You are of course free to not believe that and to mock those who do, but i really don't see the point.

 

If I were not a Christian but were an Atheist, I doubt that I would mock those who had different beliefs than me or their beliefs, because that seems a bit like a bully, you know? I am not an Atheist, and I personally have no desire to mock that Atheists don't believe in God. They are free to not believe and I understand why they don't. Mocking them or their not believing in God doesn't help the world be a better place at all. In the same way, mocking people or the beliefs of people who believe in God doesn't help the world be a better place.

 

We live on this earth together. When we die (and everyone does end up dying, whether Theist or Atheist), we will see "Who is right?" I am not saying that to scare anybody. It's just my personal observation. If Atheists are right, I'm not even sure if I would know it when I died, since I wouldn't know anything, probably... cause I'd be dead and my mind would no longer be functioning... no more thoughts.

 

If however Theists are right, then each person would know since there would be thoughts continuing even when the body, our shell, has died. It is all a very interesting subject to contemplate.

 

I personally am not a Christian because of fear of hell. I am a Christian because of my personal experience with God and because I believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of God's promises accounted in the Tanakh. I am not a Christian out of fear, but rather because I love God and I love Jesus Christ, who I believe to be the Son of God.

 

So, while some people despise Christianity, to me, I love Jesus Christ.

I don't despise other beliefs in God or gods, nor do I despise Atheism. Rather, I am grateful for freedom of religion where people can freely decide what they believe or don't believe. That is a great gift: freedom, and that is one reason why I am thankful that I was born in this day and age and in a country where there is freedom of religion. That is a great blessing. I wish everyone had that blessing, all throughout the centuries and in every country.

[BetheButterfly]

I'm a bit concerned as to why you think my post was mocking. I offered criticism, not mocking. I don't despise people who believe (unless they're raging fundies over it and do active harm to people) but I despise the doctrine of Christianity.

 

Would you consider it mocking if I called Atheism "ridiculous"? I do not think Atheism is ridiculous, nor do I despise it, but the reason I think the posts of many people who criticize Christianity to be mocking is because of the words used.

 

I despise the fact (for the sake of discussion, granting the premise of hell) that unless you accept something on blind faith, however ludicrous, however illogical, you'll end up damned to hell. I despise the fact that Christians see little issue with this, or just don't think about it. I think if more Christians actually thought about this idea a bit more, they'd see what people like me are saying.

I completely understand what you are saying, but I am wondering if your despising Christianity is mainly due to many Christians condemning those who are not Christians to hell? Is the disgust thus a reaction to a doctrine that has somehow become a part of an interpretation of Jewish beliefs that did not include a strong doctrine on hell to begin with?

 

Hell is supposedly (according to some interpretations) all fire and brimstone. It's a celestial torture chamber where people will go simply because they did not believe something on faith. However, if a serial killer accepts Christ, they can dance their way through to heaven. So, a good person can perish whilst an evil person can reap the rewards. That to me is immoral. I don't believe in it, but if I did, I'd like to hope I could see the injustice and how evil it is, and stop believing in such a horrible doctrine.

That is one reason why I personally have a hard time with the doctrine of hell, but that doesn't make me despise Christianity. I focus on Jesus Christ. Now, while Jesus did talk about hell, it's important to understand the Jewish meaning of the words used in Hebrew and Aramaic. It's important to study what Jesus believed, and in the Tanakh, the doctrine of hell is not firmly established as what many people today think it is.

 

I watched a video today about this very issue, and the guy asked, how would a believer feel if they were in heaven, and they knew a loved one, say their son, was in hell? Their son was a good person, moral, ethical, but atheist. So, naturally, he was denied access and condemned to the fiery pits of doom. Laughable as that sounds to me, I'll carry on. Would the believer care about their perishing son? If they cared, and were suffering with the knowledge, would it still be heaven? If they didn't care, why not? Would they still be them?

Most Christians do care about their family members who they believe to be in danger of hell. Most who are earnest about their faith and believe in hell being where any nonChristian goes pray earnestly for the unbeliever's soul.

It was a good video, and offered up some interesting insights into the issues of the hell idea. The idea that a loving god would send someone to hell on the basis of their being wrong doesn't fit with me. What also doesn't fit with me is the fact that people would still worship him and call him loving.

Many people see God's justice to be a part of His love. Now, I do believe that for each harmful act a person does, especially when he/she doesn't repent, that he or she will suffer a consequence, either on this earth or after their body has let the soul/spirit go. His justice is a part of His love. For example, God loves people, and when anyone hurts another person, I truly believe God will allow that person who has hurt another to suffer the consequence for doing so. However, I don't believe that means that a person will be in hell forever. That's why I ascribe more to the Judaic idea of hell, which I believe is important to consider because Jesus is Jewish. I think many people forget that sometimes. Jesus didn't try to start a new religion, "Christianity" but rather fulfills (in my opinion as well as in the opinion of thousands of people since his apostles' time till now) the promises of God accounted about him in the Tanakh.

JMHO

JMHO Edited February 14, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[BetheButterfly]

I called the inherent contradiction between a god that is called loving and one who would send someone to a torture chamber for eternity for a finite "crime" ridiculous. Not Christians themselves, but the idea. If we're at the point where even ideas can't be criticized without people getting prickly, and the criticism being labelled mocking, then I suppose there's no real point of any dialogue.

 

 

Normally when there's a productive and mutually respective dialogue, negative adjectives like "stupid" and "ridiculous" and "ugly" and so forth are not used, unless one wants to offend the person with whom they are discussing something.

 

For example, let's say a friend of mine has a dress she loves that we are discussing. Would it be kind of me to call the dress "ridiculous"? Now, I have told a friend before that I don't personally like the style of a dress, but I have not offended her fashion style by calling her dress ugly. I realize her fashion style is different than mine, and our conversation led to our differences in fashion styles, which was cool. Simply calling her dress "ridiculous" or "ugly" or "stupid" would probably have motivated her to no longer converse with me concerning her fashion style, wouldn't it?

 

Well, a person's belief is oftentimes held much closer to the heart than a person's fashion sense. If a person knows that there are other people who are Christians and who love God, saying that Christianity is ridiculous to those who are Christian is not very kind. One can point out why he/she does not believe Christianity is true without being rude and unkind about it, same as how one can point out why he/she isn't an Atheist without being rude and unkind to Atheists and Atheism.

 

It's very possible there are Christians who think that Atheism is ridiculous, but it sure isn't kind of them if they mock Atheism and Atheists, hmm? One can point out why one does not believe something is true without being rude and a bully about it.

 

As for you, I get that you don't believe Christianity is true for many reasons, including you don't think a loving God would send people to hell. Is that accurate? That's fine. I respect that. It's possible to state that without calling my belief, Christianity, ridiculous though.

 

I personally believe God exists because of both my personal experience and the experiences of thousands of other people throughout a period of thousands of years, but that's no reason for me to call Atheism ridiculous. I completely understand why Atheists don't believe in God, and I think if a person would study the history of Theist beliefs, one can objectively understand why other people do believe in God, even when they (the Atheists studying the history of those beliefs) don't agree with those beliefs for many valid reasons.

 

I got to go now! If you celebrate St. Valentine's Day, I hope you have a Happy Valentines Day! If you don't celebrate it, then I hope you have a wonderful day! Blessings!

Edited February 14, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[todreaminblue]

I've got a couple of questions for people who follow specific faiths (I'm thinking about Christianity mainly, although others are welcome to answer).

 

I was raised in a family of non-believers, and I myself am a non believer, although if I asked I guess you could say I'm officially a non-practising Christian due to my heritage. Anyway, my questions are mainly about heaven and hell.

 

Basically, is it possible for a non believer who has lived a good life to go to heaven (if such a thing exists, and it might). I like to think of myself as a pretty good guy. I love my family and friends. I take care of my girlfriend. She's the only girl I've had sex with and the only person I can imagine myself being with. I don't smoke or do drugs or cheat (in any aspect in life). I try and be polite to everyone. Is it possible for someone who has lived a life of "Christian" values, but doesn't believe in God (until he dies and finds out!) to ascend to heaven? Or will someone like this be banished? What are the alternatives? Is hell really full of fire and brimstone, and would I be sent there among the Adolf Hitler's, Lizzie Borden's and so forth? Or is there another place, like the Plains of Ashphodel (Greek Underworld), where indifferent souls who are probably not good enough for heaven, but not evil enough for the brimstone lined depths of hell (or Tartarus) spend their eternity in this very boring, although unpleasant place? Perhaps there are different versions of hell for everyone?

 

 

 

i believe that good people will get a chance to know the truth, its hard to know or find the truth down here by yourself on earth and i believe that god knows everything, he knows your heart your mind your spirit every hair on your head so he will give good just and true people that chance to know the truth, god will provide the truth .I also believe that jesus christ died for all our sins and no matter how true and just we may be we are all imperfect with imperfect knowledge and flawed........we all sin.....just differently....so i believe in a loving kind and just god who sacrificed his son so we may live with him ....not to die in eternal torment...but to live in eternal peace and happiness.....going out to look at rainbows now and put flowers in my hair.....kidding...blue skies and then some flowers..violets if i can find them..deb.......

[ComingInHot]

Bethebutterfly;

You are amazing. At the end of the dialogue, it is w/great pride that you & I share something so special. Our faith.**

 

Harmfulsweetz;

Believe it or not, I "get" what you are saying and why. Often times the reason people choose not to believe in God,His son, the Bible etc, is because of the "Christians" proclaiming one thing then hypocritically living another. Oh & my personal fav, doing harm to others in His name... ugh!

 

Eclypse;

It seems that most everyone feels that "pull", that need to believe there must be more. Often it takes more diligence to Not believe there is a greater "something" out there w/a grand design than to just go with the inate knowledge there is something more.

I believe in God, His son, heaven & hell.

 

Elementary faith is a good place to start* ex; I'd rather take the chance, follow my instincts & heart and Believe to end up being right rather than take the chance Not to believe & be wrong...

 

Mature faith is in the education, scientific support and knowledge from all aspects of different religions, faiths etc including the need/draw that humans have to a faith, God that leads you to your own sound conclusion either for or against God or any other faith.

 

Yes, I believe heaven/hell is real. It means something different to me than modern day teachers profess.

 

I also believe that I cannot judge whether you will go to either place. I do believe we will be judged.

[M30USA]

I fully concur that hell is supported by the Bible. Of course it is.

Why wouldn't it be.....?

 

But then, the Bible isn't a book I give any liberal credence to anyway, so why would that make any difference to me whatsoever....?

 

I use the following quote EVERY chance I can get

 

"About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition."

-Isaac Newton

 

Having read much Newton, I can tell you what he meant by this is that certain truths and areas of knowledge will not--in his opinion--become known until shortly before the end. And before these things become known, much of the prophecy will seem like mere symbolism and allegory. Specific example: many prophecies refer to events in the air and heavens with flying objects and/or beings. When I consider that a mere 100 years ago we hadn't even seen flight or space travel, I can have an appreciation for his point.

Edited February 15, 2013 by M30USA

[TaraMaiden]

Yeah...

I've used this one a lot, myself:

 

“The word 'God' is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, and religious scripture a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this.”

― Albert Einstein

 

Having read much of Albert Einstein, and placing far more reliance on his scientific analysis of life in general, I know, between him and Isaac, who my money's on.

[M30USA]

Yeah...

I've used this one a lot, myself:

 

 

 

Having read much of Albert Einstein, and placing far more reliance on his scientific analysis of life in general, I know, between him and Isaac, who my money's on.

 

Einstein is a tricky one. You can find quotes where he seems to directly contradict himself on the God subject. I once used his quotes to SUPPORT the existence of God, until someone pointed out verses such as yours. My conclusion is that he uses the term "God" in the same way that most people do today: as a figure of speech, especially in formal settings, but which holds little to no meaning. The best example is the one where he says that God doesn't play dice.

Edited February 15, 2013 by M30USA

[TaraMaiden]

yeah... a lot of people do that.....

 

“Christians are hard to tolerate; I don’t know how Jesus does it”

― Bono

 

Or as Gandhi put it,

 

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. "

 

Contradictions abound, even amongst the most devout of confirmed and dedicated Christians.

 

so it's hardly surprising that a Scientist who admits to having mixed feelings would hop from one foot to the other......

[M30USA]

yeah... a lot of people do that.....

 

“Christians are hard to tolerate; I don’t know how Jesus does it”

― Bono

 

Or as Gandhi put it,

 

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. "

 

Contradictions abound, even amongst the most devout of confirmed and dedicated Christians.

 

so it's hardly surprising that a Scientist who admits to having mixed feelings would hop from one foot to the other......

 

Yes, you can always expect the BEHAVIOR of Christians to contradict their message--some more than others. However, it's a shame when Christians walk around with contradictions in their DOCTRINE and don't even know the basics of Scripture. In all honesty, I'd say 9 out of 10 Christians carry virtually the same mindset and views as the rest of the world. And this is promoted by churches! Instead of churches telling Christians to be the salt and light of the world and be a beacon of truth, they are telling Christians to be "relevant" to the world and, in essence, blend in so they can connect to people. I'm sorry, but as pastor Paul Washer says, the world needs the church not because they are LIKE the world, but because they are radically different!

[M30USA]

Einstein definitely used the word "god," not in the conventional sense. More in the "nature and all that surrounds us is god." I do know that he corrected people when they called him religious, and did not believe in any personal gods.

 

Agreed. But it's still hard to pin-point his views because he clearly believed in the order and design of the universe.

[TaraMaiden]

Yes.

but he explained it too.

 

Scientifically.