Honesty with regards to rejection

[wahine]

So I met this guy in one of my classes, who, speaking strictly personality-wise, is a catch: he's intelligent, funny, kind, open-minded, humble, and driven. Looks-wise, he's average.

 

He reminded me of some of you on here who claim to have little or no success, dating-wise (or at least how you guys perceive/present yourselves). However, he is not marketing himself well at all, and in spite of all previously mentioned positive attributes, if he were to ask me out, my answer would be no.

 

For whatever reason, it is more socially acceptable when rejecting a guy to give him the standard b.s. reasons than the honest truth, which I've seen more than enough times on here and in real life [i have a boyfriend (but they don't), I'm not looking for anything serious right now, I'm focusing on my studies, I'm moving to Canada, etc.]. Well, these are one girl's thoughts on the real reasons why many guys can't get that first date.

 

Guys, you need to market yourselves well. You can have the best "product" in the world, but if you have a bad pitch (or don't have the confidence to give your pitch at all), nobody's going to hear it. I'm going to start off with a list of no-no's that seem like total common sense to me, yet I see guys guilty of them constantly.

 

Every single one of these things could be the difference between a "yes" and a "no":

 

*Dressing like you don't care (jeans, sneakers, and a t-shirt everyday).

*Out of control facial hair (unibrows especially).

*Bad hairstyle (or no hairstyle).

*B.O./bad breath (I'm astounded by how many guys have made it to college, yet are still unaware of the fact that they're THAT smelly guy).

*Over-eagerness.

*False confidence (bragging).

 

If anybody else has any other no-nos, by all means, chime in.

[MrCastle]

How do you want him to dress if not in jeans and a t-shirt? To school?

[Ruby Slippers]

The only thing on your list I would really mind is bad breath.

 

As for everything else, I'd give the guy a chance if I found him intriguing.

 

Finding a compatible partner is not like shopping for the perfect pair of shoes. I get what you're saying, but your "sell yourself" message is also a bit heavy handed. People are not products.

[wahine]

My above list of reasons/no-nos is how you market yourself. In that case, I explained how one markets themself badly.

 

If you market yourself well... you basically do the exact opposite of all of them lol. Smell good, dress well, know your value and don't appear over-eager... etc.

[SJC2008]

Better tell this guy to calm down before she divorces him for being over eager.

Image Detail for - groom_heel_click-4890.jpg

[wahine]

The only thing on your list I would really mind is bad breath.

 

As for everything else, I'd give the guy a chance if I found him intriguing.

 

Finding a compatible partner is not like shopping for the perfect pair of shoes. I get what you're saying, but your "sell yourself" message is also a bit heavy handed. People are not products.

 

Point 1 (bad breath): Well you're a kinder woman than I and most, if not all of my female friends, then. Which is fine, to each her own.

 

Point 2 (intriguing): I don't know how I could find a guy intriguing without being physically attracted to him first. And I couldn't be attracted to a guy if he presents himself as someone with low self-worth or self-esteem, or just lack of knowledge of how to "be" in general, when you're out there trying to get a date.

 

That being said, I know that some people are capable of dating without being physically attracted to the person, and all the power to them. But once again, from my experience and that of my female friends whom I've discussed this stuff with, I don't we would say yes to a guy that we didn't feel some sort of attraction to.

 

Point 3 (people aren't "products"): Indeed they're not, that's why I used the quotations.

[e40]

*Dressing like you don't care (jeans, sneakers, and a t-shirt everyday).

*Out of control facial hair (unibrows especially).

*Bad hairstyle (or no hairstyle).

*B.O./bad breath (I'm astounded by how many guys have made it to college, yet are still unaware of the fact that they're THAT smelly guy).

*Over-eagerness.

*False confidence (bragging).

 

If anybody else has any other no-nos, by all means, chime in.

That's a lot of no-nos. A lot of guys tend not to have much hair, so what hairstyle? Overeagerness? sigh. I hate lists.

[wahine]

Better tell this guy to calm down before she divorces him for being over eager.

Image Detail for - groom_heel_click-4890.jpg

 

Over-eager once you actually "get" a date isn't a no-no. And marriage is a whole other story. Who likes being in a relationship with someone who's just "meh" about them?

 

But when you're trying to actually get someone interested in you, the last thing you want is to seem desperate and overly available.

[ls32ssibm]

You have a problem with jeans and a shirt? Would you like him to wear a suit to class?

[wahine]

That's a lot of no-nos. A lot of guys tend not to have much hair, so what hairstyle? Overeagerness? sigh. I hate lists.

 

That's really not that much. And as far as the hair goes (imo)- Good:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0hwbjBHJW1r2ywuao1_400.jpg

 

http://0.tqn.com/d/mensfashion/1/0/P/w/2498620.jpg

 

http://www.mainstreetmallonline.com/fanstuff/members/buhhoe2/listings/bfraser110309.JPG

 

Bad:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/12_01/BRENDAN1104_468x515.jpg

 

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/2/3149704_989c307f22.jpg

 

It doesn't matter what length, just have some sort of style to it. Make it work for you.

 

See my above post about over-eagerness.

[SJC2008]

That's really not that much. And as far as the hair goes (imo)- Good:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0hwbjBHJW1r2ywuao1_400.jpg

 

http://0.tqn.com/d/mensfashion/1/0/P/w/2498620.jpg

 

http://www.mainstreetmallonline.com/fanstuff/members/buhhoe2/listings/bfraser110309.JPG

 

Bad:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/12_01/BRENDAN1104_468x515.jpg

 

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/2/3149704_989c307f22.jpg

 

It doesn't matter what length, just have some sort of style to it. Make it work for you.

 

See my above post about over-eagerness.

 

That first bad hair example is rediculous; Are there guys with hair like that at your school? That's baldness, not a bad hair style.

 

What is your intention with this thread? What man or woman wants to date someone with BO? I don't even remember the last time I seen a man with a uni-brow whether at school or IRL. I'm pretty sure if you were attracted to a guy in one of your classes he'd be spreading your ribs before you even realized he always wore t-shirts and jeans.

[MrCastle]

OP the problem is (aside from hygiene) you're pretty much just talking about your physical preferences.

 

Another thing, if you're seeing these great guys who are only lacking in style, why not scoop them up? Aren't they a steal? Just teach them how to dress better/groom better and you'll have your perfect man.

[wahine]

That first bad hair example is rediculous; Are there guys with hair like that at your school? That's baldness, not a bad hair style.

 

What is your intention with this thread? What man or woman wants to date someone with BO? I don't even remember the last time I seen a man with a uni-brow whether at school or IRL. I'm pretty sure if you were attracted to a guy in one of your classes he'd be spreading your ribs before you even realized he always wore t-shirts and jeans.

 

I have seen guys going bald early who should just shave it all off like my example 1, but refuse to for whatever reason.

 

My intention was to put it out there that this stuff that I see people doing (who would otherwise be desirable) is keeping them from being so. I'm sick of hearing/seeing people get rejected and being fed these stupid b.s. reasons, and making futile attempts time after time because they are none the wiser as to what is really turning the girl off.

 

Ruby Slippers said her only dealbreaker above was bad breath, so there's already one person who said B.O. was doable, given the right circumstances.

 

I've seen two guys with unibrows at school just today.

 

It's about t-shirts, jeans, and sneakers 24/7. I love t-shirts and jeans on a guy, but if you have no variety you will never differentiate yourself from the pack.

I guess I'll concede that this one is may be pushing it, but dressing well can't hurt either way.

[Lonely Ronin]

You have a problem with jeans and a shirt? Would you like him to wear a suit to class?

 

I don't get why so many guys don't get this. I bet she means something like thermals, henleys, polos, casual button ups etc.

[Lonely Ronin]

My hairstyle is like the second guy in your "bad" section, but I get dates.

 

Explain this to me, almighty wisdom dispenser!

 

Do you carry a phone and a check book in your breast pocket?

[SJC2008]

I have seen guys going bald early who should just shave it all off like my example 1, but refuse to for whatever reason.

 

My intention was to put it out there that this stuff that I see people doing (who would otherwise be desirable) is keeping them from being so. I'm sick of hearing/seeing people get rejected and being fed these stupid b.s. reasons, and making futile attempts time after time because they are none the wiser as to what is really turning the girl off.

 

Ruby Slippers said her only dealbreaker above was bad breath, so there's already one person who said B.O. was doable, given the right circumstances.

 

I've seen two guys with unibrows at school just today.

 

It's about t-shirts, jeans, and sneakers 24/7. I love t-shirts and jeans on a guy, but if you have no variety you will never differentiate yourself from the pack.

I guess I'll concede that this one is may be pushing it, but dressing well can't hurt either way.

 

How can you tell they don't have variety from what they wear to school? Are you wearing your club clothes to school? I don't wear my better clothes to school, it's over kill. I'm an older college student so this thread doesn't apply to me since I'm not about to date a 19-22 year old. TBS when I went to college when I was younger I dressed the same. My "issue" is social anxiety.

 

Not everyone can rock a shaved head. I can't because I have a big head and it's not round, it's rather odd. I'm thinning but there's no way I'm shaving my head. They funny thing is I can see how far my hairline has receeded, even in pics but people don't notice it until I point it out??

[Cutiepie1976]

The only thing on your list I would really mind is bad breath.

 

As for everything else, I'd give the guy a chance if I found him intriguing.

 

Finding a compatible partner is not like shopping for the perfect pair of shoes. I get what you're saying, but your "sell yourself" message is also a bit heavy handed. People are not products.

 

Yup! I absolutely agree with you, Ruby Slippers! The only thing on that list that would be an issue would be poor hygiene. I have a few other criteria that are critically important to me, without which a guy would never be appealing to me. Yet, they don't appear on this "universal" list.

 

Clearly everyone has different tastes, is attracted by different things, and is looking for different things. For some, apparently wearing t-shirts, jeans, and sneakers to class is a complete no-no. For me, it seems perfectly appropriate. In fact, I would find it a little odd, possibly a bit of a turn-off, if he spent his college years focused solely on being a total clothes horse when he went to class. Much the same way that a gym rat with no life or depth would be a turn-off. There are other things that are more important in a partner than dressing up, big biceps, and how much he can bench press. Of course, there will be women so attracted to that sort of thing, that they will be more than willing to overlook basic character flaws, like honesty. Perhaps blinded by his killer fashion sense.

 

Personally, I am looking for more than a store mannequin. As for the unibrow deal, I know only one man with very heavy eyebrows, and he quite literally has women falling all over him and a ridiculously attractive GF who is devoted to him. I understand what she sees in him. So do most women in his circle.

 

Different strokes, different folks. Certainly not universal rules on the laws of attraction. Rather, the OP is a statement of one individual's PERSONAL shopping list if guys want to date HER... 3 billion women out there. Many different options and preferences. Perspective is always useful in these things...

[RebelWithoutACause]

*Dressing like you don't care (jeans, sneakers, and a t-shirt everyday).

*Out of control facial hair (unibrows especially).

*Bad hairstyle (or no hairstyle).

*B.O./bad breath (I'm astounded by how many guys have made it to college, yet are still unaware of the fact that they're THAT smelly guy).

*Over-eagerness.

*False confidence (bragging).

 

What!? You are not digging the unibrow? Come on, some men rock the unibrow look!

I agree about the bad breath and the bragginess. Especially a combo of both.

I think the rest of your list is somewhat superficial.

[Emilia]

The only thing on your list I would really mind is bad breath.

 

As for everything else, I'd give the guy a chance if I found him intriguing.

 

Finding a compatible partner is not like shopping for the perfect pair of shoes. I get what you're saying, but your "sell yourself" message is also a bit heavy handed. People are not products.

 

I agree though I'd probably include excessive facial hair as it's not great for kissing but that depends

 

I don't like the 'good' dress examples in one of the OP's posts. Of course a guy needs to know how to groom himself but I will value his personality before I look at whether he is wearing the latest fashion. In fact being a fashion victim is unfortunate.

 

'Bragging'? Give the guy a chance, he is just trying to impress. What is he supposed to do, especially in his late teens, early twenties? Have the perfectly formed mature personality that most achieve only in their 30s? Give them a break. Are you the perfect princess OP? Not a hair out of place, always well dressed, full make up on, all that rubbish?

[Imajerk17]

I think people are being a bit hard on the OP. All she is really saying is take pride in your looks and hygiene and don't be an overeager puppy dog or pushy either. The bar isn't that unreasonable.

 

Sometimes it seems that everything on this board is binary. Which is why Im guessing people somehow took it to mean OP was saying the guy has to dress for GQ and have the personality of The Most Interesting Man In The World. Sheesh.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Imajerk17

[Cutiepie1976]

I didn't see a single poster disagree with the suggestion to have decent personal hygiene. It's the other personal preferences that were questioned since they are presented as dogma.

 

Eager and "pushy" can be very appealing if done right and by the right person for you. Of course, if you're not interested, eager seems overeager, pushy seems socially clueless, and nothing is ever right. That's not really an issue with the behavior per se. That's an issue with the fact that the guy was NEVER going to appeal to you anyway. His choices weren't the issue.

 

While I don't particularly like this skit, nor was some of Tom Brady's behavior acceptable, there is still a sliver of truth to it.:

 

[Fatdrifter]

That's a lot of no-nos. A lot of guys tend not to have much hair, so what hairstyle? Overeagerness? sigh. I hate lists.

 

It's all a list. To a woman she believes she'll get bonus points in heaven for all the hell she brings others....

[Treasa]

So I met this guy in one of my classes, who, speaking strictly personality-wise, is a catch: he's intelligent, funny, kind, open-minded, humble, and driven. Looks-wise, he's average.

 

He reminded me of some of you on here who claim to have little or no success, dating-wise (or at least how you guys perceive/present yourselves). However, he is not marketing himself well at all, and in spite of all previously mentioned positive attributes, if he were to ask me out, my answer would be no.

 

 

Did he ask you out? Is it possible that he doesn't care what your opinion is of how he markets himself? Maybe he's really happy with himself and doesn't care.

[Ruby Slippers]

Non-US guys (Europeans, for example) often don't wear deodorant. I've dated a couple of guys who don't wear it, and as long as they keep clean and aren't running any marathons, and as long as his smells agree with my nose (pheromones), I don't mind it. If a person is clean, you don't smell any BO unless you get sweaty together - and then, provided he's clean overall, I think it's kinda hot. I guess I'm just a hippie that way.

 

I bristled at this thread because I think it's silly to keep a long list of must-haves and must-not-haves in your head. Deal-breakers, sure - but some of these are just silly.

 

If you meet an awesome guy with a unibrow, I'm pretty sure he'll shave it or pluck it if you really don't like it. And if not, who really cares? You're going to let an awesome guy go because of a few hairs on his face?

[Imajerk17]

Any guys reading this thread should take this as very strong evidence as to how *un*-shallow women actually tend to be when it comes to dating. Yes, wahine's list was several items long. But EVERY item in the list was something that a guy could take care of for not that much effort.

 

I guarantee you that any guy with options will have a list of superficial qualities that a woman he dates "must" have that is at least as restrictive as wahine's. Is my list for a woman I'd be interested in at least as restrictive? Yes. Am I filtering out some terrific people in the process? No doubt I am. I'm still sticking to it though because that is what I like. C'est la vie.

 

What's more: As much as wahine's list was a fairly "low bar" that isn't that hard to get over, everyone jumped on her for her list saying that is was STILL too shallow and restrictive. I actually don't think that is right. First of all, keep in mind that she wrote the post for the struggling guys, and if you take her post as "advice" she makes sense. You really believe that these guys wouldn't improve their lot with women if they paid some attention to things such as style and grooming and coming across more confident and less insecure? Secondly, she is *in college*. Weren't we all a little shallow at that age? Thirdly, there are plenty of women on this forum who didn't have any "standards" in their partner when it came to things like having his life together and well, look how those relationships turned out. Going by "chemistry" didn't work out so well either.

 

My take on this....

Edited February 13, 2013 by Imajerk17