indifference?

[sunshine6]

The greatest reaction is indifference.

 

In terms of getting over AP, do you guys agree? Even if you don't feel indifferent on the inside?

[Fallen Petals]

I think that's the point we all need to reach...right? It's better than caring...

[Gibson_Girl]

It's what's on the inside that gauges whether we're over our AP.

we can act indifferent while screaming and crying on the inside. The outward show (indiffernce) I think is self-preservation kicking in. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

I don't know how I'd be able to act with indifference if I lived in the same city as my xAP. I really think I'd have to move.

 

If you find the quick line to getting over the pain will you please ask the Mods to notify everyone PDQ? I'd love to be over the pain...

 

Best wishes to you

[Realist3]

The greatest reaction is indifference.

 

In terms of getting over AP, do you guys agree? Even if you don't feel indifferent on the inside?

 

Agree. Indifference is the strongest message that can be sent.

[sunshine6]

Fake it 'til you make it, right?

 

Indifference is my new plan. Maybe he will leave me alone. (work together).

[wisernow]

The greatest reaction is indifference.

 

In terms of getting over AP, do you guys agree? Even if you don't feel indifferent on the inside?

 

I guess I don't really understand what you're asking. Are you saying you need to feel indifference to get over the a? For me, I didn't feel indifference in the days/weeks after dday. Quite the opposite. I felt real hurt and pain, which is nowhere close to indifference. Today, well over 2 years out, indifference? Maybe, but I don't think so.

 

I keep the lessons learned about that time close, so indifference isn't necessarily true for me. I don't necessarily regret that time in my life, but I'd certainly never go down that path again. And the "fake it, till you make it" mantra wasn't an option for me.

 

Everyone is different and has to navigate their own way out of the mess of an affair, but I encourage that it is perhaps best to own your part, not blame others for your choices, make amends where you can, if you can, then forgive yourself, press on, and live well. And remember, it's not a life sentence, no matter that some will try and lead you to believe.

Edited February 11, 2013 by wisernow

[Spark1111]

The greatest reaction is indifference.

 

In terms of getting over AP, do you guys agree? Even if you don't feel indifferent on the inside?

 

the opposite of love is not hate...hate, in it's intensity, still denotes a great passion of feeling, an intensity that belies loved once, pain, betrayal, hurt. someone is too emotionally invested.

 

to get to indifference about another is a liberation. their actions no longer cause you intense emotional reactions like hate or anger.

[wisernow]

Very wise post...........wisernow, (the name fits).

 

 

That last line, (it's not a life sentence).......love it.

 

I think once you've done all that you suggested, healed, made amends, etc, it's time to let it go. We owe it to ourselves and our families to be the best we can be.

 

I'm beginning to question if my time here is done. There are some toxic people here.

 

Now now, LG... I for one hope your time here isn't done. You give wonderful advice, and your (to me the best kind) heartfelt. no nonsense, gentle smacking is refreshing and needed. Please don't let a few push you out. Of course, I do think there comes a time when being here is counterproductive. I took months away from the fray, coming back when I felt renewed and ready to hopefully give something back who are where I was not so long ago.

 

Again, please don't let the few push you out. You're so much bigger than that.:bunny:

[stevie_23]

Don't leave, LadyGrey! We need more people like you here! If there are only the toxic ones around, soon there'll be nobody left!

[wisernow]

I agree with this except I'd hope everyone would regret hurting others that badly.

 

But I do agree that indifference by some definitions seems to mean "not caring about the harm" and that doesn't sit well with me. Either about things I've done in my life or thinking about the harm I've seen done by affairs.

 

And you know, MFH, I think most people do. Perhaps, when people here are wrapped up in the rawness of their situation, they don't "get it", I don't know that I did initially. But with time and reflection, most get it, that the A was much bigger than just their feelings and emotions. But, putting everyone in a box, thinking that they care for no one but their self doesn't really help either.

 

People who are hurting have a difficult time seeing beyond their pain, but in time clarity likely comes. But a smack down isn't always helpful. Certainly you can agree.

[wisernow]

I think we all agree with wisernow that it isn't a life sentence. Either for the OW or the successfully reconciling MM. But neither is it the kid of minor mistake where it's appropriate to say in the weeks and months after DDay "oh whoops, never mind I forgive myself and move on". That seems to me the equivalent of the cheap forgiveness I think some BS give and it's not real and it doesn't reflect real change because real change takes time, work and ownership of ones actions.

 

I suspect there's a tendency to straw man by both sides. I certainly don't advocate feeling crushed by guilt for 20 years. But I don't think we should ever be ok with having hurt others either. I'd hope I'd always feel it if I thought of it (the guilt) without being overpowered by it. It is possible. I know many will disagree but I think minimizing the harm and absolving oneself almost immediately are very damaging longer term. There is a middle path of course.

 

But who are you to judge when that time comes, MFH? You are not the conscience police. You do not get to say when that time comes. Not your business, not your place. There is no time limit on self awareness and forgiveness. Your self appointed time limits mean nothing.

Edited February 11, 2013 by wisernow

[spice4life]

I think we all agree with wisernow that it isn't a life sentence. Either for the OW or the successfully reconciling MM. But neither is it the kid of minor mistake where it's appropriate to say in the weeks and months after DDay "oh whoops, never mind I forgive myself and move on". That seems to me the equivalent of the cheap forgiveness I think some BS give and it's not real and it doesn't reflect real change because real change takes time, work and ownership of ones actions.

 

I suspect there's a tendency to straw man by both sides. I certainly don't advocate feeling crushed by guilt for 20 years. But I don't think we should ever be ok with having hurt others either. I'd hope I'd always feel it if I thought of it (the guilt) without being overpowered by it. It is possible. I know many will disagree but I think minimizing the harm and absolving oneself almost immediately are very damaging longer term. There is a middle path of course.

 

Hmm, who said weeks or even months? Affairs have a profound effect on many OW's that can last years. In many cases, it's a game changer; a catalyst that brings monumental change. Aside from the death of someone very dear to me, it was one of the hardest and most painful things for me to get over. It took me years. BUT, it is also the one event in my life that made me finally deal with my "inner" stuff once and for all.

Edited February 11, 2013 by spice4life

[wisernow]

I think anyone who thinks infidelity is only minor harm on the Bs is kidding themselves. It's not judgement it's consensus and observation that it causes massive harm. Don't really see how anyone can argue against that bit hey if you think it's a whoops, sorry like treading on someone by all means out that out there.

 

When I speak of OW forgiving themselves I speak as I find here and in other primary sources (including a couple of OW I've encountered IRL). Seems weeks or months is the time frame for some to say they need to forgive themselves. Beggars belief for me but there you go.

 

BTW I want to say both this and spices thread are fascinating. Thank you For all perspectives being put out there.

 

I certainly don't think it's "minor harm". have never once said that. Nope. My point to you, is that it's not your place to put the timeline on forgiveness. You may very well see infidelity as a life, or near life sentence, and that's on you. Just don't ask the rest of us to buy your timeline. Ain't gonna happen.

 

 

What is the proper amount of time for you? Years, decades? What is the MFH code on forgiveness?

[MissBee]

The greatest reaction is indifference.

 

In terms of getting over AP, do you guys agree? Even if you don't feel indifferent on the inside?

 

Faking it 'til you make it is pretty useful.

 

NC makes you seem indifferent, even if you aren't.

 

Then eventually you get there for real and you no longer count how long you've been NC or find it a victory or struggle. You just wake up and realize you have a new normal without that person in it...and it's okay or even wonderful!

[stevie_23]

I think anyone who thinks infidelity is only minor harm on the Bs is kidding themselves. It's not judgement it's consensus and observation that it causes massive harm. Don't really see how anyone can argue against that bit hey if you think it's a whoops, sorry like treading on someone by all means out that out there.

 

When I speak of OW forgiving themselves I speak as I find here and in other primary sources (including a couple of OW I've encountered IRL). Seems weeks or months is the time frame for some to say they need to forgive themselves. Beggars belief for me but there you go.

 

BTW I want to say both this and spices thread are fascinating. Thank you For all perspectives being put out there.

 

Just my 2 cents about “forgiving myself”. I don’t think I will ever forgive myself for cheating on my partner. And I don’t think I’m required to either. That, to me, is not the priority here. People that do something wrong and early on speak of forgiving THEMSELVES? It sounds a bit like psycho-babble buzz words to me. You can UNDERSTAND why you behaved that way, you can rebuild your self-worth if it’s taken a beating, you can strive to be a BETTER person, but forgive yourself? Meh. Self indulgence.

[stevie_23]

Yeah, I didn’t intend to imply that by saying forgiving oneself is self indulgent that it means I believe these people (including myself) don’t DESERVE forgiveness at some point. But SELF-forgiveness. It just annoys me.

 

The other day I told a friend of mine about something bad I did back when I was 19 (nothing to do with infidelity. Totally separate thing, and the thing I feel most guilty about in my entire life), and he said I have to forgive myself. I felt frustrated at him saying that, though I appreciate his words. But to me…forgiving my own SELF is irrelevant, redundant, and downplays the enormity of what I did.

 

And yes, it doesn’t feel like it’s my PLACE to be the one to forgive. If someone kills another person and spends 10 years in jail and then says he forgives himself? It just annoys me. It’s like…GOOD FOR YOU!! Blegh.

 

I feel that way about cheating on my partner (not regarding the killing someone thing. But regarding it not being my place to forgive myself)

 

She doesn’t know what I did. If she DID know, the only person who would have the option of ever forgiving me would be her. And until she did (if we stayed together, or if she left me but I somehow later found out she forgave me), I wouldn’t feel I had the right to forgive myself. But that’s just me. I don’t think everyone needs to feel that way.

Edited February 11, 2013 by stevie_23

[spice4life]

Self forgiveness is not self indulgent at all. True self forgiveness comes after you've done the hard work to figure out why you made the choices you made. It is then and only then that you eliminate the risk of repeating those mistakes. If, after doing all the work to figure out the why, you can't forgive yourself then you are at risk of doing it again. But again, this requires doing the "hard" work of digging deep and finding the answers. That can take years.

[stevie_23]

Maybe it’s the term I don’t like…forgiving yourself. Is it the cessation of feeling guilty over your actions? Is it the realisation you have changed and grown into someone who would never do that same thing again? I prefer those descriptive terms to “self forgiveness” which implies you are doing something to yourself that others should be doing (or not, if they so choose).

[Lillyfree]

i believe that indifference towards the AP is when you've finally healed. any emotion towards them means some sort of attachment.

 

and in them meantime, showing them indifference is the best way to go - it's almost teaching yourself a behaviour until it becomes real

[wisernow]

I don't have a timeline for OW but I know what cheap minimization when I see it, and many of you do too. A few months is nowhere near long enough to do the work to fix something that big, that's just basic psychology.

 

But no one is talking about a life sentence. I don't expect a life sentence. The only one with a life sentence is the betrayed (and some of those affected too, like the children and sometimes others). The perpetrators never do get a life sentence, nor would it be feasible.

 

Saying a few weeks of months is fake forgiveness ie absolution is not the same as saying its a life sentence. that's a false dichotomy.

 

And bravo Stevie you got my point I think. Maybe what what I'm saying is they should always have guilt but not be debilitated forever. Call it acceptance if you like. Yes forgiveness of oneself does seem self indulgent! And it's not the perpetrators place to be forgiving. Accepting and moving on yes.

 

Saying you've forgiven yourself is saying you're ok with it. And that can't be rIght ever. Cheating is never right.

 

Who is exactly is the "perpetrator? Dude please. In your little world, it's the Ow ALWAYS. That my dear, is fairy tale BS. It indeed take two to tango. You live in some fantasy world that the MM is taken off into some fantasy world, delivered there by the brazen, OW. You truly are living in some weird reality. But, whatever works for you...SMH

[stevie_23]

I always was of the opinion that the MM is the one MOST at fault, because he is the one who is risking losing the love, respect and stability of his wife and any kids if he has them. He is the one hurting the person / people he has previously made the decision and commitment to love and “protect”.

 

The OW (unless they too are cheating on a spouse) has nothing to lose in terms of themselves and their own situation. If they truly love the MM, they just want to be with him. And that doesn’t diminish the fact they know they’d be causing pain to the MM’s wife if he WERE to leave her to be with the OW, and if she were to find out, but I still think the MM is the one MORE at fault. He SHOULD have much more of a responsibility to protect and care about his own wife. The OW has no obligation to necessarily care about HIS wife.

[Lillyfree]

 

In real life I have never known an instance of a single OW so they were always equal from my POV. Two married people messing up 2 families. Totally equal.

 

... in which case those two people are also WS. i have no idea what you're trying to achieve here. say that women in affairs are the guilty party no matter what?

do you hold an opinion that all married men are mentally retarded and have no ability to make their choices?

 

and not just in this thread - you tend to t/j a lot of them and have absolutely nothing to contribute apart from speaking in generalities. and rarely is a point made.

 

i really struggle to understand what you're doing in OM/W discussions.

[stevie_23]

I have a sort of friend of mine who’s been in a long distance online affair with a MM for 2 years, and she’s been single the whole time. (his wife knows about it and is apparently ok with it. I’ve heard this from both the OW and the MM himself, but not the wife, so…I don’t know for sure how she really feels of course)

 

In any case, this OW is single, so that’s at least one case of not both parties being married! Lol.

 

Also, I think of it in the way that…it’s not about it being incomprehensible to hurt a stranger, but rather, the OW wants and loves the MM, and once you REALLY want and feel you need something or someone, the welfare of a total stranger becomes much less important.

[Elfie]

Very wise post...........wisernow, (the name fits).

 

 

I'm beginning to question if my time here is done. There are some toxic people here.

 

I have found your replies so helpful - don't leave yet hey? There will always be toxic people anywhere in life, but they're not worth acknowledgment, so might be possible to put to one side and concentrate/guide/help those in genuine need?

 

Go with your heart, but thank you for all you've given, whatever you decide

 

Warmest wishes

[spice4life]

Nice try MFH, but I completely disagree about self forgiveness being self indulgent. It's a necessary part of the healing process. I don't need to argue that point any more. Have a nice day!