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Is it cheating if you are given permission to go outside the marriage?


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Posted

Just something I've been thinking about the last couple of days...

 

I was married for three years, and with my wife for 10. We had some relationship issues, but were in a pretty decent place (I thought, at the time) when an opportunity arose to be physically intimate with some women outside my marriage. My wife, who knew of the situation and liked both the women, basically gave me the go-ahead to do whatever (she had done the same some years prior). I confirmed she was serious over a period of a few weeks, and that she wasn't just trying to test me or something, and when I took advantage of the situation and told her about it, my wife and I ended up discussing an open relationship. Shortly after this, to make a long story short, my marriage ended rather violently and painfully without me ever have actually taken part in an extra-martial scenario.

 

Now...when people ask me "Have you ever cheated?" I'm not sure what to say in response. I don't like to lie, especially since anyone who really gets to know me will eventually figure out the basics of what happened (it's a sore subject for the community I live in). "That's really none of your business" just sounds guilty, and I think a prospective girlfriend/friend is entitled to know something like this. And I don't think "No, but I certainly understand what it feels like to have cheated on someone, or to hurt someone" really holds water. Telling the whole, long, sad story in real life or to a number doesn't appeal to me, either.

 

My wife certainly reacted the way someone who was cheated on does (from what I've seen in terms of reading about it online, in books, etc), and I certainly feel like I got all the anger that would come along had I cheated, but in my mind, I did not actually cheat on her in any real sense, though I did get involved in what could be considered an emotional affair, albeit with her permission.

 

I don't suppose it matters, because we both got hurt in the end, so all the associated lessons and emotions, I have learned and understand for future reference. Still, it's one of the few questions I'm not really entirely comfortable with.

Posted

I would think it would go something like this, "I was in an open relationship briefly but it didn't work out. Everybody gets hurt."

 

ETA: no, I don't think it's cheating, per se, but still a hell of a bad idea.

  • Like 4
Posted

No, given permission to do so is not cheating. That is called on open relationship, or marriage.

 

But those who do it well, set very strict guidelines and boundaries. No falling in love, no sneaking behind the partner's back, no SECRETS from each other because then, that IS cheating.

 

It's hard to read between the lines of your post, but I am guessing that what became on open relationship to experiment with another spiraled out of control?

 

Because that can happen, I'm sure. Perhaps others successfully in open relationships will come around to post exactly what those boundaries are...

 

Care to elaborate Guard? It's hard to help without the total story, but you don't have to divulge.

 

If you are seeking a response, I think you got two very good ones;)....

  • Like 2
Posted
Just something I've been thinking about the last couple of days...

 

I was married for three years, and with my wife for 10. We had some relationship issues, but were in a pretty decent place (I thought, at the time) when an opportunity arose to be physically intimate with some women outside my marriage. My wife, who knew of the situation and liked both the women, basically gave me the go-ahead to do whatever (she had done the same some years prior). I confirmed she was serious over a period of a few weeks, and that she wasn't just trying to test me or something, and when I took advantage of the situation and told her about it, my wife and I ended up discussing an open relationship. Shortly after this, to make a long story short, my marriage ended ....without me ever have actually taken part in an extra-martial scenario.

 

Now...when people ask me "Have you ever cheated?" I'm not sure what to say in response.

 

 

So are you saying you had sex with someone else, or not?

 

if the answer's 'no' then, no. You didn't cheat. You had the opportunity - but you didn't take it.

 

WTF...??

Say 'No'! That's all they need to know!

 

What business is it of theirs, anyway - ?!

Posted

Well, wait....after re-reading your post, maybe you did.

 

If you asked to be physical with someone who you were already having an EA with, and your wife did not know about the EA...yes, you were cheating whether you ever had the chance to get to physical or not.

 

If the EA was kept secret from your wife, you were cheating.

Posted

I think you might be splitting some hairs a bit too finely here Guard.

 

You asked to try something with another physically without disclosing this was a woman you were having an EA with.

 

Your wife said yes to the sex and the woman BUT found out later of the EA.

 

You deceived her. You cheated. She felt manipulated. You manipulated her.

Posted
when I took advantage of the situation and told her about it, my wife and I ended up discussing an open relationship. Shortly after this, to make a long story short, my marriage ended rather violently and painfully without me ever have actually taken part in an extra-martial scenario.

 

I don't understand. You "took advantage of the situation" then discussed/got approval for an open marriage but didn't take part in an extra-marital scenario and later mention an EA. I'm confused.

  • Like 1
Posted
My wife, who knew of the situation and liked both the women, basically gave me the go-ahead to do whatever (she had done the same some years prior). I confirmed she was serious over a period of a few weeks, and that she wasn't just trying to test me or something, and when I took advantage of the situation and told her about it, my wife and I ended up discussing an open relationship. Shortly after this, to make a long story short, my marriage ended rather violently and painfully without me ever have actually taken part in an extra-martial scenario.

 

I think these are the confusing bits....

  • Like 1
Posted

It sounds like you have one of three issues:

 

1. You had been having an EA with the woman(s) and then asked your wife permission to have sex with said woman(s), knowing full well that she had given you permission in the past. This would be cheating due to the fact that you had already engaged in an EA prior to getting permission for an open marriage.

 

2. You asked your wife for permission to have sex with the woman(s) and began an EA which was not your intention, but happened anyway. This does fall into cheating when people engage in an open marriage.

 

3. You got permission to have sex, but your wife was just trying to appease you. If so then no you were not cheating.

 

Did you wife have permission to have sex with men besides yourself? Or was it a one sided affair? What were her reasons, besides you cheating, that she spoke of during your divorce?

Posted

I missed that part were you said she knew both women.....that could have been the problem.

  • Like 1
  • Author
Posted
I would think it would go something like this, "I was in an open relationship briefly but it didn't work out. Everybody gets hurt."

 

See, being an overanalyzing writer type, I would never have been creative enough to come up with something that succinct and still honest. Thank you. :)

 

No, given permission to do so is not cheating. That is called on open relationship, or marriage.

 

But those who do it well, set very strict guidelines and boundaries. No falling in love, no sneaking behind the partner's back, no SECRETS from each other because then, that IS cheating.

 

It's hard to read between the lines of your post, but I am guessing that what became on open relationship to experiment with another spiraled out of control?

 

Care to elaborate Guard? It's hard to help without the total story, but you don't have to divulge.

 

Yes to all this, see below.

 

So are you saying you had sex with someone else, or not?

 

if the answer's 'no' then, no. You didn't cheat. You had the opportunity - but you didn't take it.

 

WTF...??

 

Say 'No'! That's all they need to know!

 

What business is it of theirs, anyway - ?!

 

No.

 

True, but I'm a special investigator. In my experience, the first thing that other people think when you say "None of your business" about a sensitive subject is that you're hiding something, or are guilty of what you don't want to talk about. Because that's what people who lie do. :)

 

I think you might be splitting some hairs a bit too finely here Guard.

 

You asked to try something with another physically without disclosing this was a woman you were having an EA with.

 

Your wife said yes to the sex and the woman BUT found out later of the EA.

 

You deceived her. You cheated. She felt manipulated. You manipulated her.

 

I don't understand. You "took advantage of the situation" then discussed/got approval for an open marriage but didn't take part in an extra-marital scenario and later mention an EA. I'm confused.

 

It sounds like you have one of three issues:

 

1. You had been having an EA with the woman(s) and then asked your wife permission to have sex with said woman(s), knowing full well that she had given you permission in the past. This would be cheating due to the fact that you had already engaged in an EA prior to getting permission for an open marriage.

 

2. You asked your wife for permission to have sex with the woman(s) and began an EA which was not your intention, but happened anyway. This does fall into cheating when people engage in an open marriage.

 

3. You got permission to have sex, but your wife was just trying to appease you. If so then no you were not cheating.

 

Did your wife have permission to have sex with men besides yourself? Or was it a one sided affair? What were her reasons, besides you cheating, that she spoke of during your divorce?

 

I missed that part were you said she knew both women.....that could have been the problem.

 

She'd met them. She didn't know them well.

 

I probably should have just put the whole story on here...I posted it elsewhere on the boards. I was actually trying to simplify things, oddly enough. Here's what happened:

 

My wife and Iwere having various marital issues, communicationwise and financial. I wassexually unsatisfied, largely because she had some serious insecurities abouther body, so the sex slowed to a crawl, and eventually more or less stopped for large periods of time. Acouple of years into the marriage, things were getting better between my wife and I, and a couple of women in a theatre cast I was indeveloped crushes on me, and vice versa. My wife found out about it first viathe local grapevine, informed me of it, and after a series of discussions between us, she basically told me to go for it if anythinghappened at a cast party or elsewhere, since she'd had her fun at theatre functions (shetold me a few years into our relationship that she cheated on me about a year into our relationship, while I was at college and she was at home). I made sure she was okay with this, wasn't just appeasing me, etc, and decided I would see what happened.

 

My wife went out of town for a singing competition.I ended up alone with these women during a birthday party, we all got hammered, and almost had animpromptu threesome. Essentially, they started playing spin the bottle, which was just an excuse for us all to make out, this led to them taking my shirt off and heavy making out/touching all around, until we were interrupted by other partygoers. Throughout the evening, there were a lot of awkward "younger woman trying to mount me" moments, and the other woman was getting close and touchy-feely.

 

At the end of the evening, the older of the two women more or less jumped me when the other one went to bed. She ended up with her top off, we made out, did some touching, but did not have sex or do anything particularly sexual.

 

I went home, did some soul searching the next day about how I felt about what had happened, and told mywife about what had happened at the party that evening when she came back to town. Shewas proud of me, and revealed that she'd also slept with someone recently. I guessed that she meant my bestfriend at the time (who was a virgin at the time), as they'd been spending a lot of timetogether, and she confirmed this, as did my friend, via text message when I asked himabout it during my wife and I's discussion about it. I was so stunned, but not terribly upset. I told my friend we would discuss it later, and my wife and I talked.

 

So my wife and I discussed our reactions to all this, and the situation in general, and what we wanted, and we talked about trying anopen relationship of sorts. We spent a couple of hours talking about it,discussed boundaries, etc, and eventually decided to see where things went.Long story short, it turns out she was "testing" me, and a few hoursinto this talk, she became violently angry. She attacked me, there was a sixhour screaming incident, and she left the next morning, telling me to do what Ineeded to do and then contact her. I took this to mean "Get it out of your system", and clarified that this is what she meant.

 

I gave her a few days to calm down, then a week, and tried to talk to her aboutthe situation. She kept reiterating that I had the green light to do what I needed to do, and that we could then talk about our marriage. I asked her to go to counseling, which she refused to do. So,incredibly upset, I "did what I needed to do", which was to see if Iwanted to do anything further with the other women. The younger woman (the one who had the initial thing for me) had distanced herself and pretended not to remember what had happened and the older woman and I spent about a weekhanging out together, had what I guess would constitute an emotional affair, and got a little bit sexual (not much, I would consider it junior high stuff), and I decided that I wasn't going to jeopardize her marriage (her husband was aware of her interest in me and the party events), and that I'd like to at least try to work things out with my wife, orat least get a counselor's opinion/ideas on the matter before going any further. I started going to acounselor myself.

 

My wife returned home for a couple ofweeks, and things were going a little better, until she took my phone andsecretly text messaged the woman I'd been seeing at two o'clock in the morningand begged her to have a threesome with us (which I had not asked for).

 

I finally convinced her to go to counseling. She walked out of the first dualcounseling session, started to become violently angry every time we discussedanything outside a counselor's office, ended up threatening suicide and, after I took her to the hospitalone night, committed herself to a mental hospital. When she got out of there aweek later, she was on medication for depression and anxiety, and we triedcounseling again, with the understanding that I was just going to be focusingon her and not going after any other relationships, but she was unable toreconcile what had happened. She attempted to deliver ultimatums to me like "Iwill only come back if we can have a baby right away", and wasn't rationalabout anything.

 

I attempted to reconcile about a dozen times, but she was incapable ofdiscussing anything without getting really upset. She blamed me for everything,was verbally and emotionally abusive, and became physically violent severaltimes. Eventually she agreed to counseling again, but walked out on two morecounseling sessions, and couldn't even discuss a plan to work on our marriagewithout having severe panic attacks at the last session, at which time thecounselor flat out told her she'd be better off separating from me, which she said was what she wanted. I agreed to this if it was going to make her feel better, and make the situation easier on her.

 

Meanwhile, she also started telling everyone we knew that I had outright cheated on herand had an affair, which led to a lot of her older female friends telling herthat I was various things, including controlling and emotionally abusive.

 

Ifound out later that she had lied about sleeping with my friend, and that she'dmade him lie to me as well so I'd believe her. I also later discovered that when Ifirst suggested counseling, she had started talking to an old high schoolfriend, who she then moved across the country to be with a few months after weseparated.

 

So, the community we were in (theatre), who has now taken my side in most of this because my wife treated many of them badly before leaving with no notice, many of them know bits of this, and the rumor that I had a mistress, cheated on my wife, had affairs, etc, tends to circulate, so I get asked this question a lot, specifically by women when what they've heard about me doesn't match who I seem to be. I prefer not to tell the whole story because quite frankly, I see no reason to drag my ex-wife's name through the mud.

Posted

Wow. Looks like not all the drama is onstage.

 

I think the short answer would be that "I got divorced because my wife was not emotionally able to participate in a marriage". And the futher answer to any more questions would be "None of your business" ...

 

Mr. Lucky

  • Like 1
Posted

Your wife, she be crazy.

Posted

People makes mistakes, you made one, and it seemed to eb a joint mistake, i particpated in an open relationship, hell knows why i did, i should have just left him when i found out he cheated the first time...i was young and inexperienced, thought i was being cool, i wasnt ...i was naive...thought i knew everything ....again...i didnt..i thought i could handle it...i couldnt ...i dont like casual sex....didnt then and dont now.i thought it woudl be better to throw the relationship open then leave the guy which is actually pretty retarded,..i dont think you need to go in to detail, i think you would need to share that you found it to be a mistake.....deb

Posted

"last I heard I think she is doing much, much better and is finally getting the help she needs. thanks for asking." AND change the subject....quickly and politely.

Posted

I'm sorry I have to sympathise with your wife here.

It sounds like.. you wanted to cheat to me, it sounds like all you needed was the go ahead, and you were on it like a drooling dog over a raw steak.

I think she knew the relationship was coming to it's demise, and her own self-worth was absent.

It was wrong of her to test you and play those games, a better way would've been to simply let you know that things are going wrong and that you need to work on it.

But sometimes, in the fog of it all we all make bad decisions.

 

It was her own self-fulfilled prophecy.

 

My opinion on open-marriages is that they don't work.

And they only start because the marriage is already not working.

But if the marriage was going to go to that point, either seek help first or leave before you both go around sleeping with other people.

Clearly you both still cared about each other too much to know you are sleeping with other people.

Posted

"I was in an open relationship briefly but it didn't work out. Everybody got hurt."

  • Author
Posted (edited)
I'm sorry I have to sympathise with your wife here.

 

It sounds like.. you wanted to cheat to me, it sounds like all you needed was the go ahead, and you were on it like a drooling dog over a raw steak.

I think she knew the relationship was coming to it's demise, and her own self-worth was absent.

 

I felt for her, and was empathetic about where she was during what happened, but it's very hard for me to sympathize with someone who, after I was open and honest with her about something that was very sensitive and important to our survival as a couple, outright lied to me about her feelings regarding key components of a relationship and then, when it became a mess, couldn't work on the relationship, and couldn't begin to control herself.

 

I don't know what "drooling dog over raw steak" means in context, unless you mean it literally.

 

No, I wasn't mentally salivating over the idea of banging other women. No, I didn't want to cheat. If I'd wanted to cheat on her, then I would have cheated on her, not had an open conversation about what we both wanted out of life, sex, our sex lives, etc, and talked about our options.

 

Did I want to sleep with the other women? Yes, but not enough to hurt my best friend and my wife in the process. I don't like cheating. I don't believe in it. I don't think that it solves anything, and I think people get hurt for no good reason. Lying and sneaking around solves nothing and creates more pain for everyone involved.

 

It was wrong of her to test you and play those games, a better way would've been to simply let you know that things are going wrong and that you need to work on it.

 

But sometimes, in the fog of it all we all make bad decisions.

 

It was her own self-fulfilled prophecy.

 

Fair enough.

 

My opinion on open-marriages is that they don't work.

 

And they only start because the marriage is already not working.

 

I think most of them probably don't work, but since something like half of marriages don't "work" and end anyway, and I'd bet a good bit more of them are filled with unhappy people, I don't think its a stretch to say that this is because the people in them aren't compatible, and aren't working on the marriage like they could be.

 

There are open marriages and relationships that do work, because the two people in them are mature and honest with each other about their needs and feelings, and because they are compatible, and both want that kind of lifestyle to begin with. I was curious about it...and she lied to me about her feelings on the matter. Repeatedly.

 

But if the marriage was going to go to that point, either seek help first or leave before you both go around sleeping with other people.

 

I had sought help, for several years. We'd been to counseling several times, for various issues, most of them relating to her own insecurities and parental issues.

 

Like I said, what happened wasn't a reaction to things being bad between us. Unsatisfying? Arguably. But not neccessarily bad.

 

Clearly you both still cared about each other too much to know you are sleeping with other people.

 

I don't know what that means.

Edited by TheGuard13
Posted

 

I ....................had ...................an opportunity arose to be physically intimate with some women outside my marriage. My wife, .............gave me the go-ahead to do whatever (she had done the same some years prior).

 

Now...when people ask me "Have you ever cheated?"

 

Simple: I had affairs with my wife's permission. Then my wife wanted a divorce.

Posted

I really think your wife giving you permission to be with other people was more a cry for help than her honestly wanting you to be with other people.

I think if your marriage was healthy and happy, and she suggested having an open relationship, fine. Try it.

But you were both having issues within your marriage, you were not mature enough to fix those issues, how were you mature enough for an open marriage?

 

After you found out she slept with your friend, and she found out you'd been with those women.. neither of you could handle it?

I just think open relationships can't work, after a marriage like that, you're feelings for each other have to be mutual, dulled down to friendship.

That's the only time I've seen it work.

When two people still care about each other, open marriages generally just lead to more hurt.

 

Maybe she'd already given up on the marriage, and she just needed a final push, to have her ticket out of here?

I don't know, from your story, I just feel her sadness.

 

And women do this stuff all the time..

they'll tell you "I'm fine"

or "Sure, go have a beer at the pub"

and then they get mad at you later.. ha!

We are crazy...!!!

  • Author
Posted
I really think your wife giving you permission to be with other people was more a cry for help than her honestly wanting you to be with other people.

 

Yes, and in some ways, I'm sure that me wanting to be with other women was a cry for help as well. My wife simply did not give me what I needed in the relationship, physically or emotionally, or in terms of support. She never had, and it took me a long time to realize that our issues weren't just basic things you deal with and get over, but serious compatibility issues.

 

I think if your marriage was healthy and happy, and she suggested having an open relationship, fine. Try it.

 

Right, and I made the mistake of believing we had a happy, healthy relationship. In hindsight, I (we) obviously didn't know enough about the concept of an open relationship at the time. We had only a vague notion of the emotional risk involved, and I had incomplete information about my wife's beliefs about them, because she was lying to me about her feelings on the matter.

 

But you were both having issues within your marriage, you were not mature enough to fix those issues, how were you mature enough for an open marriage?

 

We weren't. As a couple, we weren't strong enough or compatible enough for an open marriage. Honestly, we weren't, looking back, compatible enough for a regular marriage, either, or even a relationship.

 

After you found out she slept with your friend, and she found out you'd been with those women.. neither of you could handle it?

 

She didn't actually sleep with my friend. She lied about doing so to "test" me. I could handle the revelation just fine. She apparently could not.

 

Maybe she'd already given up on the marriage, and she just needed a final push, to have her ticket out of here?

 

I don't know, from your story, I just feel her sadness.

 

Every single one of her actions suggests to me that she wanted to stay in the marriage, and that she wanted to be with me...but she didn't want to work at anything. She didn't want to improve herself, she didn't want to contribute financially to reaching our mutual goals, and she didn't want to communicate effectively.

 

She was very insecure, and often depressed. She may be bipolar. I know she was sad about what happened, and angry, and I understand where she was coming from, but I couldn't at the time, because I believed my wife would tell me the truth after 10 years of being together, and being best friends, etc. TShe didn't communicate the truth to me at the time, and over the course of our relationship, she was dishonest with me about her feelings about going outside the marriage, even though I probed for the truth when we talked, tried to make sure she was serious, not covering up her true feelings, or just telling me what I wanted to hear.

 

And women do this stuff all the time..

they'll tell you "I'm fine"

or "Sure, go have a beer at the pub"

and then they get mad at you later.. ha!

We are crazy...!!!

 

It's not really that funny to me. Lying, being dishonest, and reacting emotionally in a given scenario leads to things like what happened to my wife and I.

Posted

Wait, did you write that your wife - early in the marriage - asked for and received permission from you to have sex with a few other men? Did I read that right or did I misinterpret that?

 

OK...OP, I think you were played by your wife. I think your wife has been cheating on you for a period of time and she has been trying to figure out a way to get out of the marriage. Since it appears that the two of you have piss poor boundary control anyways, she latched onto your desire to screw these other women and just made you the bad guy for "breaking" up the marriage. JMHO, but you I believe you were set up.

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