InmannRoshi Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by littleflowerpot you mean the way that men that walk around without a shirt are objectified? I'm sorry, you'll have further explain your comeback. I'm refering to women who use their sexuality to get what they want, and then get huffy when men view them as sexual objects. Is it commen for men to take off their shirts in an attempt to persuade and manipulate? I haven't ran across many instances of this happening. Well ... none, really.
CurlyIam Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 I'm not sure I follow you Moose. First: your sister is young - maybe, and clearly influenced by those around her. Tell her to either toughen up and make her own decision about whom to sleep with and why or to do it like she should and set up some real prices for her services... since you are talking about tough love. While I may understand your position regarding your sister, may I ask why you never said anything about confronting your mom on this one? You sure know who's to blame in this story. Coming back to high cleavege... Moose, would you say that a woman deserves what comes to her if she's wearing a little black dress in a foggy bar and outside there are only 5 grades (Celsius, that is) ? The reality is that should one woman dare to dress sexier and not be accompanied by her bf, she gets it all: from dirty looks to free drinks, money, sometimes hands on her behind and if she's unfortuante, a little good bye rape. It all begins with this one Moose: prejudices ! It is a woman's right to wear whatever she pleases. And if you call yourself a good and right man, you should judge her by her actions, not by her appearance.
Fayebelle Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 I think sexuality is the hint or mystery of sex- Not the promise of sex. By sexuality I mean charm- bit of flirty eye contact- and head on home. By the promise I mean pasties- bit of flirty crotch contact- and head on home together. Will I use sexuality to get a late fee off my video membership- yep Will I use the promise of sex to get a new house and car- never
littleflowerpot Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by InmannRoshi I'm sorry, you'll have further explain your comeback. I'm refering to women who use their sexuality to get what they want, and then get huffy when men view them as sexual objects. Is it commen for men to take off their shirts in an attempt to persuade and manipulate? I haven't ran across many instances of this happening. Well ... none, really. you sound as if you are suggesting women tone down our sexuality because men will take it the wrong way. well, that's the man's problem. i enjoy my sexuality and won't cover it up because men with boundary issues have a problem with it. i also agree with faybelle's response. using sex to get what we want is different from enjoying our sexuality. perhaps a better word is sensuality. a person can be sensuous without promising sex. Originally posted by Moose Well, I suppose you have to really know the person in which you are speaking to. Had she of been anyone else, I would've been more tactfull. i disagree. just because you know someone, it doesn't mean you should be abusive by calling them names. i agree you should talk about why you think it's wrong but i think it is abusive when you call her names. most people i know tend to become defensive when attacked with abuse. how will that open her eyes to your message exactly?
Author Moose Posted August 31, 2004 Author Posted August 31, 2004 I'm not sure I follow you Moose. First: your sister is young - maybe, and clearly influenced by those around her. Tell her to either toughen up and make her own decision about whom to sleep with and why or to do it like she should and set up some real prices for her services... since you are talking about tough love. She's 34, I don't call that too young, and head strong. Her deal, I think, is that she knows it's wrong. She's just using Mom's go ahead as a scape goat to justify it. She knows the difference between right and wrong. As far as real prices for her, "Services", that would be simple. There are none. My view is to stop it dead in it's tracks. While I may understand your position regarding your sister, may I ask why you never said anything about confronting your mom on this one? You sure know who's to blame in this story. Believe me, she knows how I felt about her telling my sister that. And she also knows how I feel about her step-son getting ready to marry a man. Do we fight about it? No, that would be a waste of energy. Do we hate each other for being on opposing sides? No. We've accepted that we won't see eye to eye on some if not most things. Do I try to change her views? Nope, and she doesn't mine either. We have a peacefull co-existence. Coming back to high cleavege... Moose, would you say that a woman deserves what comes to her if she's wearing a little black dress in a foggy bar and outside there are only 5 grades (Celsius, that is) ? Yep!!!! I sure am!!! Any woman who ignorantly places herself in a situation around drunkin' men, wearing next to nothing, and flaunting her body all over the place will deserve exactly what she invites. Many will argue with me and try to tell me that a woman should be able to go anywhere and do anything, naked or no, a man is to have self control. Sorry, but not ALL MEN can control themselves. There are sickos out here, real men who are real sick, that won't think twice about the consequences if he takes that woman against her will, rape and kill her. The reality is that should one woman dare to dress sexier and not be accompanied by her bf, she gets it all: from dirty looks to free drinks, money, sometimes hands on her behind and if she's unfortuante, a little good bye rape. It all begins with this one Moose: prejudices ! Prejudice????? WHAT? Ok, maybe you ought to expand on that one. I don't get what you're saying here. I think there is a big difference in being prejudice and being carefull. I have nothing against women who like to dress skimpy, but I do worry about their safety. And I worry that most women don't think about the dangers. It is a woman's right to wear whatever she pleases. And if you call yourself a good and right man, you should judge her by her actions, not by her appearance. I don't call myself a good and right man, A lot of others do. And I don't think you're getting my point either. It is the action, the action of dressing revealing, and acting like she'll put out if you do what she wants. I agree with you, it's a woman's right to wear whatever she pleases. All that I'm saying is that sometimes women will pay a great deal of suffering and pain simply because a sicko can't control himself. So why invite it? I'm not just talking about the bar scene either. There are a lot of corporate higher ups having sex on the conference room table just to get a better parking place or office. Most of which show cleavage and gives the impression that since she's willing to show some flesh, she's willing to do more. These aren't really the sicko's I was talking about, they are just as sick, they just use different tactics.
littleflowerpot Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 moose, let me understand this: did you just say that if a woman wears something sexy around drunk men, she deserves to be raped?
Author Moose Posted August 31, 2004 Author Posted August 31, 2004 i disagree. just because you know someone, it doesn't mean you should be abusive by calling them names. i agree you should talk about why you think it's wrong but i think it is abusive when you call her names. most people i know tend to become defensive when attacked with abuse. how will that open her eyes to your message exactly? She didn't get defensive. I told her how I felt, I called her a whore. She knows I'm disappointed and that I feel it's wrong. That's the message I sent, that's the message she received. Sorry it's so hard for you to see that by simply calling her that name woke her up to a harsh reality that Big Brother doesn't accept it. There is nothing to discuss, she knows it's wrong and why it's wrong. I won't waste my time going over something she already knows. It wouldn't do any good. But by showing her my disappointment, it will cause her to think about what she's doing and hopefully make a change for the better. I've told my wife she's being a bitch to her face on several occasions. You'd think she'd get defensive and slap me, but for some reason, people who know me understands that I will call it the way I see it. With that being said, they re-evaluate a lot of what's going on and will look at my point of view. 99% of the time, I'll get a hand on my shoulder and the words, "Damn it, you're right". Don't get me wrong, I know when to be blunt and when not to. With my sister, if I had pussy footed around the issue, she would've got the impression that I'm not totally against it, and I didn't want that to happen for sure!!!
InmannRoshi Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 The topic is not about "dressing however you feel like" with little regard to how others feel about it. That's perfectly fine, but that isn't the topic. In fact, quite the opposite. We're talking about peole who dress with the sole purpose of getting a reaction out of others. The topic is about using your sexuality PURPOSELY AS A MEANS OF PERSUASION AND MANIPULATION. Somehow others have morphed it into a sensationalistic side issue of whether women deserve to be raped.
Author Moose Posted August 31, 2004 Author Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by littleflowerpot moose, let me understand this: did you just say that if a woman wears something sexy around drunk men, she deserves to be raped? I am saying that if a woman is dressed in something sexy, is flaunting her body around, and is rubbing her crotch on men, acting un lady like, then they should expect it! If it doesn't happen, she's lucky, she got away with something. But next time she may not be too lucky. Noone deserves to be raped. It's a terrible trauma. But if a woman dresses sexy, and is around drunk men, with a sicko or two in the same room, that woman is playing with fire and will most likely find herself in a situation she doesn't want to be in. So don't blame me if I disagree that acting and dressing that way doesn't invite trouble. It's well known, by this thread alone, that women use their bodies as a way for personal gain, to get something in return, with that mentality all ready at work, don't you think that the drunks are thinking to themselves, hey....this woman wants to get laid, I shall oblige.
littleflowerpot Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 name-calling is a verbal insult and it's abusive and no spinning can make it pretty. there are other ways to let your sister know that you think her behavior is unacceptable that are far less damaging.
Mr Spock Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 I am saying that if a woman is dressed in something sexy, is flaunting her body around, and is rubbing her crotch on men, acting un lady like, then they should expect it! If it doesn't happen, she's lucky, she got away with something. But next time she may not be too lucky. So if I see a man dancing in tight jeans, giving me the eye, being sexual towards me, he should expect me to sodomize him with a whiskey bottle? GAME ON!!! Unladylike, my ass. It's people with these preconceived notions of "good" and "proper" that drag the rest of us down.
Fayebelle Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 I thought we made so much progress on your rape thread! Anyway- I think there are times we need to reevaluate the power of euphamisms. This country places so much credit to those who are "blatently honest"- whatever happened to appreciating common courtesy? You draw more flies w/honey- perhaps you should approach your sis from another angle- She needs 1 man in her life to love her and treat her w/respect (her not her actions) How can you expect her to want to find a man who cares for her and treats her honorably when her own bro addresses her as a whore?
Author Moose Posted August 31, 2004 Author Posted August 31, 2004 It was meant to cause damage!!! When I spank my children I want them to feel it.....geeeezzzzz. I love my sister, if it takes calling her a name to wake her up to what she's become, then so be it....you don't know her, you don't know what it would've took to make her see that......I've known her all my life, I think I should know what to say and when to say it.
littleflowerpot Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by InmannRoshi The topic is not about "dressing however you feel like" with little regard to how others feel about it. That's perfectly fine, but that isn't the topic. In fact, quite the opposite. We're talking about peole who dress with the sole purpose of getting a reaction out of others. The topic is about using your sexuality PURPOSELY AS A MEANS OF PERSUASION AND MANIPULATION. Somehow others have morphed it into a sensationalistic side issue of whether women deserve to be raped. the reason it's "morphed" into the question of rape is because moose said: "Any woman who ignorantly places herself in a situation around drunkin' men, wearing next to nothing, and flaunting her body all over the place will deserve exactly what she invites." please don't think us so naive as to believe he wasn't including rape as an outcome of the "invitation." women that dress sexy don't always do so because they are trying to persuade or manipulate anyone. they simply like feeling sexy. unless she's a prostitute straight up asking dudes for money for sex, you can't accurately say that any woman dressed sexy is trying to manipulate anyone.
littleflowerpot Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by Mr Spock So if I see a man dancing in tight jeans, giving me the eye, being sexual towards me, he should expect me to sodomize him with a whiskey bottle? GAME ON!!! Unladylike, my ass. It's people with these preconceived notions of "good" and "proper" that drag the rest of us down. game on, baby! i got the bottle!
Mr Spock Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 Either way Moose, I don't think you're that enlightened either-simply by some of the things I read here. Not an insult. Just an observation-from what you say you personally would think it is expected to force sex upon a woman who is dancing and acting provocatively (unladylike) even if she said no. I'm amazed there aren't mass rapings in public if this is truly the case. Let's all put on veils, cover our heads and go inside.
Author Moose Posted August 31, 2004 Author Posted August 31, 2004 Faye, That's just it, common courtesy is almost smothered out along with free speech. My sister does have a man, one man that cares a great deal for her. I would never call her a whore in front of anyone.....this was a private conversation, which by the way was brought up by her. It was a calm conversation. She asked what I thought about it when mom said it was ok, and I asked her those two questions. It's not like I walked up to her and called her a whore with the meanest intentions. It was to clarify what an act, such as, is. Mr. Spock, by all means, go and sodomize as much as you want. But don't be surprised by the amount of volunteers you'll get. Preconcieved notions, hmmmm, call it what you want, I'll call it common sense. It's common sense on how to carry yourself. Act like an ass, and your an ass, act like a gentleman, you are a gentleman. Act like a slut.....well, you get it don't you? Flower, I see your points, BUT, don't you think that with the knowledge that the drunk have control issues and that there are sickos out there who don't care about themselves, that women should be more carfull on how she dresses and carries herself? Or do you think that women have this protective bubble around them that will shield them from harm such as rape so they should be able to go outside, naked and not get touched? Using your body for gain, dressing sexy, could esculate to potential rape and murder. This is a very real possibility and if you can't see that, then I worry about you. I don't care if it's right or not, I think you should all be very carefull, keep your guard up at all times. If you want to go out and feel sexy, don't go it alone.
Fayebelle Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 but so far how has it been working for you? (gotta love Dr Phil ) Calling her names obviously hasn't worked- have you tried another angle? Like asking her WHY she thinks this is OK? You can't blame it on "b/c my Mom entices her to" otherwise your enticement for her to stop would have an equal effect. Perhaps if you apologized for name calling and approached her as a loving bro who only has HER best interest at heart - she may be more willing to listen.
InmannRoshi Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by littleflowerpot women that dress sexy don't always do so because they are trying to persuade or manipulate anyone. they simply like feeling sexy. unless she's a prostitute straight up asking dudes for money for sex, you can't accurately say that any woman dressed sexy is trying to manipulate anyone. I'm not saying the behour was right or wrong. People are free to use whatever they have at their disposal. I'm just saying you can't have it both ways. Once again, you can't use your sexuality to your benefit when it suits you, and then complain when others view you as a sexual object. Just like one shouldn't complain that they aren't taken seriously when they talk like a Valley Girl. No, saying the word "like" every other word and popping your bubblegum doesn't necessarily mean you're intellectually dim, but if that's how you chose to present yourself that's how others will perceive you.
Mr Spock Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 Let's define "Slut" Moose. Exactly how many men does a woman have to sleep with before she earns this title from you? If I don't like taking out the garbage, and my current SO is the one that does it, am I whoring myself out to him? Is a woman a prostitute only if she does not ENJOY the service she performs? There are a few in the feminist movement that truly believe a wife cannot consent to sex with her husband-that it is rape every time. I think you need to talk this over with your wife-as she seems to be the only one who can convey to you that dressing sexy is not an invitation to rape. You don't have to be a "sicko" to rape someone. Using your body for gain, dressing sexy, could esculate to potential rape and murder. This is a very real possibility and if you can't see that, then I worry about you. I don't care if it's right or not, I think you should all be very carefull, keep your guard up at all times. If you want to go out and feel sexy, don't go it alone. We had a discussion on this not too long ago. You should read through it.
Fayebelle Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 Speaking slow b/c YOU think they appear dim is not criminal Raping someone b/c YOU think they dress slutty is Furthermore- please read a few rape threads for one of the MANY links supplying Studies, Statistics, Facts that RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX!!!
Author Moose Posted August 31, 2004 Author Posted August 31, 2004 Spock, You're still missing my point. I used the term slut just for an example.....sorry, I have a defintion, but if I told you what it was, you'll just twist it around. I don't get your gargage analogy at all. So, you don't like to take out the trash, your SO does it, what's the big deal, how is that whoring yourself out? Do you mean that you take out the trash FOR him because it's actually his job? Is that whoring yourself out? NO!! What are you gaining besides and empty trash can?? I think you need to talk this over with your wife-as she seems to be the only one who can convey to you that dressing sexy is not an invitation to rape. You don't have to be a "sicko" to rape someone. We did cover that already. I don't think by simply dressing sexy is an invitation to rape. You combine that with drunks, then flirting, then physical touch, that it's almost sure to lead to sex and sometimes against the woman's will. Simple as that. To not protect yourself, or take measure to minimize that risk is simply ignorant in my opinion. It does take a sicko to rape. Anyone who can cause harm to another human being other than self defense or self preservation is a sicko.
Girlie Posted August 31, 2004 Posted August 31, 2004 ""MANY links supplying Studies, Statistics, Facts that RAPE IS NOT ABOUT SEX!!!""" As a date rape victim, I disagree. Sometimes, rape is about sex. At least in part. But then again, I hate studies and stats and stuff. They're not MY experience and they can be twisted, pulled and yanked to fit any point of view. Also, I hate to say it, but as a rape victim, I can kind of see Moose's point. Not with regard to dress, but about being careful about situations you put yourself in. When it happened to me, I couldn't argue with the fact that I put myself in a very, very bad situation. That doesn't make me any less the victim, and certainly doesn't justify his behavior. However, I would be doing myself an injustice if I didn't learn from that situation that this isn't a perfect world where Melanie can go do whatever she wants without consequence. Sure I can walk around flaunting my sexuality every where I go. Unfortunately, in this world, I found I can't necessarily do that without consequence. It would be nice if I could, but there are people out there who will do whatever they can to and feel justified at taking advantage of that. So, after learning that, I'm more careful now. Anyway, just my two cents. Carry on.
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