pbjbear Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Why would women be afraid of marriage? Pop out a couple kids and kick the chump to the curb, free income. I dont have that mentality and neither do alot of women depsite what you think. I want to find a partner with whom I can have a fulfilling and healthy relationship where I dont have a high likelihood of ending up trapped and miserable, or getting ****ed over Im too scared to invest in men today, I find 3/4ths are way too selfish for me
serial muse Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) I'm less concerned with making friends and having people agree with me than with exploring the facts of the matter. Um, OK. I was being ironic, but cool, take it seriously. First off, dismissing ANY argument that difference exists between men and women is a sign of not living in reality. Oh, sorry, I missed the data you provided for that little sociological gem. Perceived double standards must always be critically examined, yes. But that doesn't mean NO double standard is valid. For example, as I said in another thread, I believe it is more biologically normal for men to disconnect themselves from the emotional bonds of sex than women. I don't like that fact any more than you do, and I am one of the atypical men who finds cheap sex disgusting, but I'm not going to ignore reality just because it's politically correct to do so. A woman who is willing to do FWB is more atypical than a man who would do the same. Everyone would be a lot better off if they started to have an honest exploration of gender identity, rather than a politically correct one. This isn't about political correctness at all - that's just a hoary old red herring used to sidestep critical thinking. Way to cliche. Yes, there are men who make statements about "all women" which are in fact based on women they consider mates. However in this instance, I could cite several facts supporting the idea that this is generally less true and/or less relevant for men. First off, and once again this is supported by the biology of what I said earlier - women are more selective and restrictive of their potential dating pool than men are. This is due to the fact that women can bear only a certain number of children, and are stuck with a large biological responsibility, whereas men acting purely on base biology could sire thousands of children and ignore responsibility to any of them. So when men are thinking of the women they would date, they are almost always thinking of a much larger percentage of women than a woman thinking of the men they would date. Thus, a man complaining about "all women" and meaning only his dating pool, is still a lot closer to describing "all women." Here's the flaw in your carefully constructed house of cards. Experience. It's one thing to make statements about "all men" or "all women" based on dating experiences. It's quite another to make them based on a lack of same, but on people one "would date". In other words, you're not comparing apples with apples. This is not something that was made clear in your earlier post, or I wouldn't have agreed with it. Just because one gender is more open to dating more people - which I don't agree with anyway, there's zero data to support this, but that's your premise and you're desperately clinging to it - does not mean that, on the whole, that gender actually has had dating experiences with a larger number of actual people. And those actual real-world experiences are where any validity (if such there be) for "all men this" or "all women that" might come from. Everything else is hot air. I could go on and bore everyone, especially myself, but I won't bother since I doubt you are receptive to anything I'm saying. Likewise, I'm sure. The Johns would be horrified. Edited February 6, 2013 by serial muse
Shaun-Dro Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 I say and it I mean 90% of men are all the same. Most men I find, despite their temperament/personality/character are more selfish and shallow than the majority of women I meet. I think women tend to have more emotional depth and look inside a person. This is a statement I make on numbers...meaning the % of "good men" and "good women" There are good men but they are RARE, there are more good women out there (though there are certainly some nasty women too...) I also truly believe men, in general not 100%, are emotionally weaker than women which makes it hard for me to find a guy I would want to marry. Men today seem to be so emotionally immature and I dont feel like dealing with it People on this site dont believe me when I say average looking men can act the same as a super hot alpha man with options. Or that men without options treat women bad. Or that average men tend to just show their true colors later on in dating. I think society reinforces the idea that women are supposed to be the caring nurturing selfless types and men get a free pass to be rude insensitive and mean. There are endless excuses for men acting this way...so many variations of "hes a guy" "boys will be boys" Women can def be selfish and rude too so not saying they arent, but all the phrases used to describe them are derogatory. There are no free passes for women to be mean...in conclusion I dont think its entirely a man's fault that they tend to be so selfish. With gender quality becoming more and more true, eventually all will be the same however. Right now we are in a transition period. I find it very difficult to read through the Sexual Issues and Cheating & Flirting Forums on this site with all the double standards so men can be selfish. Drives me bonkers I disagree with parts of this because the majority women never try to get to know a man if he isn't her type on first impression. In order for women to truly get to know a man it usually happens by accident.
pbjbear Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 I have never met a man that believed in double standards that didnt boil down to just being plain selfish Its atypical of women to have fwb's and be a good girlfriend = I am a manwhore but I deserve a girl without that past who then will think Im special Analzying the world is not always a good thing...the vast majority of things men say arent due to critical thinking but due to perpetuating their selfish motives and agendas
Woggle Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Define emotional neglect. Most men I have known who shut down emotionally have done it after numerous attempts to connect with their wife that have resulted in being in the doghouse. They start to feel they can't do anything right so why even try. That is how it happened in my first marriage. I realized I couldn't win so I chose time to myself doing whatever to standing there and having all my faults told me for the 100th time. With my current wife I am fully there because she allows me to actually connect with her.
normal person Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 I am not going to be buying her anything-except for special occasions. But every moment I am with her I will be thanking her subtly to let her know she is appreciated. That means I won't stray and if I can help her feel better I will do anything. It's not about spoiling her but letting her know that in this world there is at least one that really cares about her. Well then you and I are actually on the same page, I guess we just have a different definition of "princess." I associate the term princess with someone who's materialistic, uncompromising, and demanding, or someone who's handed everything she wants without asking for it or even needing it. You describe a nice relationship and you seem like a nice, notably sensible guy. I have never been treated like a princess but over 50% of the men I dated (after I got to know them...meaning after a few months and their true colors came out) all expected to be treated like princes. I have never had an exclusive relationship that was close to 50/50. Men get comfortable in relationships and leech off of you... I'm sorry to hear that, there are plenty of jerks out there and I'd never be one to deny that. What sort of things would they be expecting as a prince though? I've heard of emotional detachment/withdrawal after a while, but acting princely is a new one for me.
pbjbear Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) Well then you and I are actually on the same page, I guess we just have a different definition of "princess." I associate the term princess with someone who's materialistic, uncompromising, and demanding, or someone who's handed everything she wants without asking for it or even needing it. You describe a nice relationship and you seem like a nice, notably sensible guy. I'm sorry to hear that, there are plenty of jerks out there and I'd never be one to deny that. What sort of things would they be expecting as a prince though? I've heard of emotional detachment/withdrawal after a while, but acting princely is a new one for me. I have been in 3 exclusive relationships. They all had the same pattern. I met a guy who I didnt know very well (this is important...people seem to think Im an idiot for dating guys where they acted different after 3 or 4 months...not everyone shows their true nature right away and I didnt know them well) He seemed nice and seemed interested in me. We had common interests that we bonded over but differences between us as well. They were attractive but not out of my league by any means. I dated each of them for around 2 months, things went great. Good in bed too. By this point, we had an exclusivity conversation. A month or two after this, they started doing these things: -Saying mean/degrading/disprespectful things to me. (This is the "true colors" thing...I stop seeing any guy who comes across as a jerk in the earlier stages. Do it all the time!) I dont generally make mean or disrespectful comments. I mean I am not perfect but Im probably too nice if anything. However, after they started doing this I started making a few comments like they did here and there (to see their reaction). One guy didnt care and just seemed to be very immature, the other 2 of them got pissed at me. Cant take what they dish out, huh? -Stopped pleasing me in bed. Cutting back on foreplay and complaining I dont get wet quick enough. Start thinking foreplay is putting his hands down my pants while we watch TV, not even touching my clit, for a minute and then getting mad when I say it hurts when they penetrate me. (2 did this) -Never wanted to go out and do anything but expected me to cook for them all the time. (This is the reason why I dont cook for men anymore, it seems once I start they expect it all the time) -Expected me to conform to their schedule (even though with 1 I was a working college student and with the other 2 I was a grad student...I was busier than them) and usually expected me to drive to them (for the ones that were further away than 10 minutes) -Expect me to constantly watch sports (I dont like to do that) with them and then shoot me down everytime I suggest something they dont like. I dont mind doing things for a guy I dont like as long as it is returned I wish I was exaggerating but Im not. I have had plenty of guys do this after dating for a month or two where we werent exclusive either. All of these relationships ended because I brought up these issues, they never got resolved and I became very unhappy with them. They either dumped me because we fought too much (1) or I dumped them (the last 2) because I got sick of it I will admit I was acting like a bitch the last month of each relationship but by that point I had to be to get my point across. I find most men dont really change their behavior if you sit them down and calmy discuss your issue. They nod, say theyll change and then go back to their old ways after 2 days. Only when I got mean did they show a longer reaction I have never had a guy buy me a gift that cost him more than 20 dollars and that was thoughtful. Every single gift I have gotten was jewelry. I like jewelry, but I know they picked it up last minute. EDIT: Exclusive Relationship No. 1 was a quiet, nerdy guy. I met him in college on a field trip. No 2 was an outgoing, smart guy. I met him through a mutual friend who was also smart. No 3 was an athletic funny guy. I met him at the gym. None of them had the same personality...hilarious. Thats why I brush off comments on here that tell me I must go for the same type of guy and Im to blame. Edited February 6, 2013 by pbjbear
FitChick Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 When a man/woman says, "All women/men are the same," what they really mean is that they are only attracted to a certain type.
SJC2008 Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 I say and it I mean 90% of men are all the same. Most men I find, despite their temperament/personality/character are more selfish and shallow than the majority of women I meet. I think women tend to have more emotional depth and look inside a person. This is a statement I make on numbers...meaning the % of "good men" and "good women" There are good men but they are RARE, there are more good women out there (though there are certainly some nasty women too...) I also truly believe men, in general not 100%, are emotionally weaker than women which makes it hard for me to find a guy I would want to marry. Men today seem to be so emotionally immature and I dont feel like dealing with it People on this site dont believe me when I say average looking men can act the same as a super hot alpha man with options. Or that men without options treat women bad. Or that average men tend to just show their true colors later on in dating. I think society reinforces the idea that women are supposed to be the caring nurturing selfless types and men get a free pass to be rude insensitive and mean. There are endless excuses for men acting this way...so many variations of "hes a guy" "boys will be boys" Women can def be selfish and rude too so not saying they arent, but all the phrases used to describe them are derogatory. There are no free passes for women to be mean...in conclusion I dont think its entirely a man's fault that they tend to be so selfish. With gender quality becoming more and more true, eventually all will be the same however. Right now we are in a transition period. I find it very difficult to read through the Sexual Issues and Cheating & Flirting Forums on this site with all the double standards so men can be selfish. Drives me bonkers I don't think the balance between good men and good women is that skewed. My take is that humans in general are selfish, greedy, and ALL human have the potential to be "bad", it's in our DNA. When Tomas Hobbs and John Locke were coming up for ideas in setting up the US government( pre constitution I beleive) they had a fundamental disagreement on how much or little govt there should be. One beleived humans were "good" by nature and wanted less govt and the other thought humans were "bad" by nature and needed more govt. I don't care if you have a hot dog or a taco between your legs, you can be great or an evil SOB. How good or "evil" you are depends on your life exp's. My younger years in elementary I bullied a couple people, one a boy, one a girl. As I got older I grew out if it but I also went through things that hurt me. I'm more afraid of hurting someone than getting hurt myself now because of life exp's. Now it depends on WHICH WAY said person goes after getting hurt, that defines their true character. As to women being emotionally stronger than men, I seriously doubt it. Women are security seeking creatures! Why ate the attracted to confidence? Why are they attracted to status? Because it's in their DNA to seek security. If it wasn't they'd be the ones asking the men out and putting themselves there. The man has always been the pursuer. Why would biology peg the "weaker" gender as the pursuer? Why is neediness in a man a guarentee one way ticket to the FZ? Also, if women were so emotionally strong, why can't they tell a guy they're not feeling it after a date? Why do they flake? It's because they don't want to face the awkwardness (emotion) when doing so. Not all women are like that and men do it too. Lastly, why do men feel if we show women then we'll get chewed up and spit out? Why are we told as soon as a women sees you're vulnerable she's going to lose attraction? I'm a man and I take pride in it. I'm a mechanic, I fish, ride dirt bikes, watch sports and the list goes on. The moral the story is I can take care of myself but once in a blue moon I'll need a shoulder to lean on, I'll need some support and compassion. And when this happens the woman who's right for me will be there in the blink of an eye, she won't lose respect for me!
pbjbear Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 I don't think the balance between good men and good women is that skewed. My take is that humans in general are selfish, greedy, and ALL human have the potential to be "bad", it's in our DNA. When Tomas Hobbs and John Locke were coming up for ideas in setting up the US government( pre constitution I beleive) they had a fundamental disagreement on how much or little govt there should be. One beleived humans were "good" by nature and wanted less govt and the other thought humans were "bad" by nature and needed more govt. I don't care if you have a hot dog or a taco between your legs, you can be great or an evil SOB. How good or "evil" you are depends on your life exp's. My younger years in elementary I bullied a couple people, one a boy, one a girl. As I got older I grew out if it but I also went through things that hurt me. I'm more afraid of hurting someone than getting hurt myself now because of life exp's. Now it depends on WHICH WAY said person goes after getting hurt, that defines their true character. As to women being emotionally stronger than men, I seriously doubt it. Women are security seeking creatures! Why ate the attracted to confidence? Why are they attracted to status? Because it's in their DNA to seek security. If it wasn't they'd be the ones asking the men out and putting themselves there. The man has always been the pursuer. Why would biology peg the "weaker" gender as the pursuer? Why is neediness in a man a guarentee one way ticket to the FZ? Also, if women were so emotionally strong, why can't they tell a guy they're not feeling it after a date? Why do they flake? It's because they don't want to face the awkwardness (emotion) when doing so. Not all women are like that and men do it too. Lastly, why do men feel if we show women then we'll get chewed up and spit out? Why are we told as soon as a women sees you're vulnerable she's going to lose attraction? I'm a man and I take pride in it. I'm a mechanic, I fish, ride dirt bikes, watch sports and the list goes on. The moral the story is I can take care of myself but once in a blue moon I'll need a shoulder to lean on, I'll need some support and compassion. And when this happens the woman who's right for me will be there in the blink of an eye, she won't lose respect for me! I think I mean emotional weaker= less emotional intelligence. Most men I dated never seemed to care about my feelings, did what they wanted without thinking about mine or how itd make me feel. I was using a poor choice of words and could have been more specific I dont lose attraction for men that show emotions...I have no idea why men are told this. I lose attraction for men that are unemotional towards me, doesnt matter how great you are otherwise. One of the more nicer guys I dated where I really wanted it to work, never showed much towards me and it drove me bonkers and stopped seeing him
SJC2008 Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 I have been in 3 exclusive relationships. They all had the same pattern. I met a guy who I didnt know very well (this is important...people seem to think Im an idiot for dating guys where they acted different after 3 or 4 months...not everyone shows their true nature right away and I didnt know them well) He seemed nice and seemed interested in me. We had common interests that we bonded over but differences between us as well. They were attractive but not out of my league by any means. I dated each of them for around 2 months, things went great. Good in bed too. By this point, we had an exclusivity conversation. A month or two after this, they started doing these things: -Saying mean/degrading/disprespectful things to me. (This is the "true colors" thing...I stop seeing any guy who comes across as a jerk in the earlier stages. Do it all the time!) I dont generally make mean or disrespectful comments. I mean I am not perfect but Im probably too nice if anything. However, after they started doing this I started making a few comments like they did here and there (to see their reaction). One guy didnt care and just seemed to be very immature, the other 2 of them got pissed at me. Cant take what they dish out, huh? -Stopped pleasing me in bed. Cutting back on foreplay and complaining I dont get wet quick enough. Start thinking foreplay is putting his hands down my pants while we watch TV, not even touching my clit, for a minute and then getting mad when I say it hurts when they penetrate me. (2 did this) -Never wanted to go out and do anything but expected me to cook for them all the time. (This is the reason why I dont cook for men anymore, it seems once I start they expect it all the time) -Expected me to conform to their schedule (even though with 1 I was a working college student and with the other 2 I was a grad student...I was busier than them) and usually expected me to drive to them (for the ones that were further away than 10 minutes) -Expect me to constantly watch sports (I dont like to do that) with them and then shoot me down everytime I suggest something they dont like. I dont mind doing things for a guy I dont like as long as it is returned I wish I was exaggerating but Im not. I have had plenty of guys do this after dating for a month or two where we werent exclusive either. All of these relationships ended because I brought up these issues, they never got resolved and I became very unhappy with them. They either dumped me because we fought too much (1) or I dumped them (the last 2) because I got sick of it I will admit I was acting like a bitch the last month of each relationship but by that point I had to be to get my point across. I find most men dont really change their behavior if you sit them down and calmy discuss your issue. They nod, say theyll change and then go back to their old ways after 2 days. Only when I got mean did they show a longer reaction I have never had a guy buy me a gift that cost him more than 20 dollars and that was thoughtful. Every single gift I have gotten was jewelry. I like jewelry, but I know they picked it up last minute. EDIT: Exclusive Relationship No. 1 was a quiet, nerdy guy. I met him in college on a field trip. No 2 was an outgoing, smart guy. I met him through a mutual friend who was also smart. No 3 was an athletic funny guy. I met him at the gym. None of them had the same personality...hilarious. Thats why I brush off comments on here that tell me I must go for the same type of guy and Im to blame. They say it takes 3-6 months to get to know someone. I agree with this for the mkst part but it may take longer for their true colors to show so to speak. Sounds like these guys did a 180 on you. The last woman I dated (5 dates) was easing into her true self. Our last date was at the movies and when we sat down she said out loud "why did you sit us here" in an unpleased/attitude tone. I don't care how weak it sounds on my part and won't settle for the "that's how women are" line either, that was a snide comment.
ChessPieceFace Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 I have never met a man that believed in double standards that didnt boil down to just being plain selfish Its atypical of women to have fwb's and be a good girlfriend = I am a manwhore but I deserve a girl without that past who then will think Im special Analzying the world is not always a good thing...the vast majority of things men say arent due to critical thinking but due to perpetuating their selfish motives and agendas How does it "perpetuate my selfish motives and agenda" to say "men are more hardwired for casual sex" when I don't have any interest in casual sex?
normal person Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 I'm really sorry to hear that pbjbear, it sounds like you've had a legitimately rough time. I know, you can proceed with as much caution as you can, but sometimes people just flip a switch and suddenly let their true colors out. It's painful and can be real disheartening but I'm your corner, I don't think it has anything to do with your taste or screening process. I hope you don't blame yourself over anything like this. I think the big theme in this discussion is people wanting to have their cake and eat it too; they can't compromise. They expect a lot from you but are somehow offended when you expect the same in return. If you're this person you can easily deceive someone else into thinking you aren't like this (which is horrible enough as it is), but if you honestly can't recognize the quality in your own personality and at least be open to changing it, it's unlikely anyone will ever be happy with you and you'll never be happy as a result.
SJC2008 Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) Threads like this make me even more cynical:( A lot of women say men only want sex or are all the same when there are plenty of men who want nothing more than to have a gf but can't get one. I obviously love sex as a man but would rather have a gf instead of just getting laid which I've only been twice. Yes a reason men want gf's is becauce they'll be getting steady sex but like I've said before; There were women I could have dated that I wasn't into just to have steady sex. So while sex is important to me I'm not going to use a woman so I have a steady supply. I want to like her too! The main thing that pisses me off is that the guys who do these things are the ones getting all the sex. So I do have to question many a womans motives/people pickers when they make blanket statements like this. So as "bitter" as this sounds, when a woman say men only want sex, she's either punching out of her league or her people picker needs fixing. I could relate to the latter as my picker needs fixing too but if her problem is the former I have zero sympathy for her at all. Edited February 6, 2013 by SJC2008 spelling
normal person Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) Threads like this make me even more cynical:( A lot of women say men only want sex or are all the same when there are plenty of men who want nothing more than to have a gf but can't get one. I obviously love sex as a man but would rather have a gf instead of just getting laid which I've only been twice. Yes a reason men want gf's is becauce they'll be getting steady sex but like I've said before; There were women I could have dated that I wasn't into just to have steady sex. So while sex is important to me I'm not going to use a woman so I have a steady supply. I want to like her too! The main thing that pisses me off is that the guys who do these things are the ones getting all the sex. So I do have to question many a womans motives/people pickers when they make blanket statements like this. So as "bitter" as this sounds, when a woman say men only want sex, she's either punching out of her league or her people picker needs fixing. I could relate to the latter as my picker needs fixing too but if her problem is the former I have zero sympathy for her at all. There's some truth to this, but you can be as picky as you want and sometimes the people you think make the cut are just deceptively horrible rather than visibly so. Lots of people lie about a lot of things whether or not they're conscious of it. Being picky is great, you can feel real satisfied when your pickiness pays off, but when you take all the right precaution and it still backfires, it can be a pain in the ass ten fold and really shake your whole concept of judgment. Edited February 6, 2013 by normal person
pbjbear Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 When I was younger I def think it was a people picker problem but now I just think people are so dishonest while dating and are too selfish. I am sure there are women who do what I described in my earlier post about my past exclusive relationships (about doing a 180, or their true colors coming out). It is sad because now I just dont trust men or their motives. Thats one of the reasons I decided to take a break from dating other than the fact I dont like the general dating culture of NYC. The last few men I tried to date before I stopped I was not into it at all even if they were showing signs of interest and I liked them...I just kept thinking "how long will this last until he turns into an *******" or "how much longer until this turns into a 20/80 situation" (meaning me giving 80%....) When I look at men I think about what they want from me: power, control, sex (usually a combination)
Recommended Posts