normal person Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 You really have no idea just how twisted and distorted your idea of the truth is. To be honest, I feel like there's a lot of opinions and negativity traded on this forum over semantics, miscommunications, and anecdotal evidence. I'm not going to speak for her, but when people say things like that I've learned to read them in the context of one person's personal experience. When people say things like "men do X" or "most men do X," it's probably because those are the ones she encounters in the situation more often than not. If she's a good looking girl in her 20s in Manhattan, then yeah, I get why she might think that based on experiences and I sympathize. Her reality is different than someone else's and to immediately dismiss it is just as naive as generalizing, I think. I'm just as guilty of it too in a bunch of threads and I'm making an effort to give it all some more perspective. New York's a cruel, self-obsessed place where everyone's in it for themselves. Compassion's a rarity, to be honest I'm surprised there aren't more girls (who outnumber guys by a very large margin) who live here and get turned off by the whole process. I've lived in Los Angeles where there are many more guys and much fewer girls, so I know the feeling when I see a thread pop up from a guy struggling to meet girls and I see his location is SoCal. Me telling him to "just go out to any bar and pick any of the dozens around" isn't going to help, the reality is that there aren't dozens of single girls out in bars out in bars like there are in NYC. The situation differs geographically, culturally, and across gender lines. These are big factors affecting someone's input here, I always have to remind myself that. Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I think it's a crappy, immature thing to say. There are decent people and awful people of both genders, and anyone who doesn't recognize that has a lot of growing up to do. Nobody's perfect, but most people are pretty decent. Maybe she is hoping you'll be her knight in shining armor. Who knows. But then I'd advise you to be cautious, because you're human and that's waaaayyy too much pressure for any one person. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Relevant to 'all guys are the same', the phrase '"I turned out liking you more than i originally planned" is, generally, social Astroglide. The totality is how words influence emotions which influence thoughts which influence actions. Be aware of such influences. Make healthy choices for yourself. OP, unless you knew the 'younger guys' personally and can vouch for their 'immaturity', that's more Astroglide. Things can get a bit slippery on that slope 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Talak7 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 No Im not looking for someone to support me. Im looking for a relationship, Ive done plenty of casual dating, and I want something more meaningful. Im very wary about jumping into relationships though. I find it takes several months for someones true colors to come out...Ive had a few shorter exclusive but not bf/gf relationships and many of them the guys acted very different after the first 2 months. Im not desperate by any means. Most men just want a **** buddy, friends with benefits or a girlfriend-without-commitment situation. Hell yes I like to have fun...but "just fun" isnt good enough for me anymore. I dont need to date to get my fun, I have plenty of great friends for that This likely happens to you because after several months of suspicion, trust issues, not willing to put faith in your partner, they likely get frustrated, hurt, and lash out or leave you. It's called a.... Self-fulfilling prophecy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pbjbear Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) You didn't really answer my question: what is it you would like to get out of a relationship? For me, I'd like a travel buddy, (occasional) workout buddy, (occasional) sports watching buddy, sex buddy, equal financial and household partner, and possible co-parent rolled into one. If I meet a girl and don't want that with her, it's because she either wouldn't want it, wouldn't be good at it, or doesn't stir a strong enough romantic feeling within me. Id say all those except exercising. I prefer to exercise alone...the rest sounds good. Having some common interests is nice or at least someone who likes to try some new things once in awhile Talak7- I see what youre saying but I dont voice my opinions about dating to men I see and few ask me deep questions about it. I go with the flow...most men dont want to commit or fizzle out after a few months. Most men in NYC can get dates left and right (even average men) since there are so many women... Edited February 5, 2013 by pbjbear Link to post Share on other sites
pbjbear Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) Maybe women just want too much from a man in marriage. The man is somehow expected to give up his true nature and be monogamous, be an economic slave while the woman decides if she'll work, work part time, or never work again. He's also expected to be the brave protector if danger ever occurs. It's like an extension of dating where the man pays, picks up, protects, while the entitled woman does nothing but judge him. Thats one of the biggest reasons why I dont think marriage works anymore...few men really desire to be monogamous and make excuses for it. You do know its in a woman's nature to desire men who make $ (evolutionary tendencies of a woman). So if you want to argue you shouldnt be monogamous because its in your biological nature, well its not in my biological nature to not look at how much $ you make. You sound selfish. So you can act according to your true nature but I cant do the same? I dont depend on men financially, Im pretty independent, or to save me from a burning building so the rest doesnt apply to me... Basically Id like my relationship to be a friend I get physical with Edited February 5, 2013 by pbjbear Link to post Share on other sites
Talak7 Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 few men really desire to be monogamous and make excuses for it. This is just simply a misstatement of fact. Link to post Share on other sites
scratch Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Having some common interests is nice or at least someone who likes to try some new things once in awhile. Basically Id like my relationship to be a friend I get physical with And you don't think men are interested in this sort of arrangement? I am as far from sappy and romantic as a non-bitter guy can be, and I want this. I'd refer you back to the final sentence in my paragraph: If I meet a girl and don't want that with her, it's because she either wouldn't want it, wouldn't be good at it, or doesn't stir a strong enough romantic feeling within me. Maybe the statement "there are no men who want relationships" should be combined with the question "why do some men think I don't want or wouldn't be good at a life partnership, and why don't I stir romantic feelings in them?" Link to post Share on other sites
pbjbear Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 women say these words so much on first dates. here's how it often might go 15 minutes in, we're getting coffee or whatnot and she begins to complain about her exes and says "all men are the same" and how they just want to get between her legs. she talks about exes who did this, some she dated for over a year. i attempt to change the subject, but to no avail. i tell her i'm looking for a relationship, not just sex, but its almost if the words go in one ear and out the other. 30 minutes later, she has to meet a friend and naturally i never see her again. i've tried to call some but no answer, no returned message. Those girls are turds, I dont talk about exes/past dating unless really pressed and I try not to sound negative...it makes you look negative. Its the same as going on a job interview and bitching about your previous boss. I dont do that 1 Link to post Share on other sites
ChessPieceFace Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 A girl that i like always says this but I don't think she realizes she dated immature guys and she was younger. I don't fully understand the psychology of it, but it's a huge red flag to me. There are many good men out there. If a woman is not seeing them, something has gone wrong in her perceptions. One possibility is that she's only attracted to "bad boys", has been repeatedly burned by them and now that's the reality of what men are to her. Nice guys / good guys in her life don't register as potential mates and are excluded from the group she labels as "men." When a woman says "all men" are this or that, really what she's describing are the group of men she deems worthy of being potential mates. I believe this is also true for men describing "all women", but to a lesser degree. It would be to her great benefit to realize this, and some women do realize it (some have posted about it on this forum, recognizing the disconnect between the men they are attracted to and the men that are good for them) but sadly most do not. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
ls32ssibm Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Thats one of the biggest reasons why I dont think marriage works anymore...few men really desire to be monogamous and make excuses for it. You do know its in a woman's nature to desire men who make $ (evolutionary tendencies of a woman). So if you want to argue you shouldnt be monogamous because its in your biological nature, well its not in my biological nature to not look at how much $ you make. You sound selfish. So you can act according to your true nature but I cant do the same? I dont depend on men financially, Im pretty independent, or to save me from a burning building so the rest doesnt apply to me... Basically Id like my relationship to be a friend I get physical with It isn't difficult to keep a man from cheating. You just have to meet his sexual needs. It's absolutely amazing how many sacrifices a man could make for a family and the woman still won't give it up. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 I know a few men who are adamantly against getting married and none of them are that way because they don't want to be monogamous or be with one woman. They are scared of what will happen after marriage. They don't want to end up a divorced guy paying through the nose so he can only see his kids on weekends or being treated like a trained dog or being treated with contempt by a woman who feels she settled for him. Obviously all marriages are not like this but it is a real fear that single men have these days. When I talk to young men who have sworn off marriage this is the reason they give. I am only repeating what they say. My friend who recently dumped his girlfriend because she kept insisting on marriage despite telling her he never wants it saw how his mother treated his father and stepfather and he wants no part of that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
scratch Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Why would someone buy the cow after her prime milk producing days are over and a dozen or more men got the milk for free back in the day? Because it's fun to have a travel/activity partner to whom you're romantically attracted, and if you're not in some sort of relationship it's hard to plan some trips and activities. Furthermore, your platonic friends (and even blood family) will not prioritize you to the point where a significant other will. If sharing activities with a romantic partner does not appeal to you, by all means, continue to women as only good for sex. As far as someone else being there for you, if you think that your bros won't make themselves scarce when they pair off with women, you are fooling yourself. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
tbf Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 If you're looking for any modicum of intelligence or emotional stability, avoid anyone who can't discern individuality. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 When a woman says "all men" are this or that, really what she's describing are the group of men she deems worthy of being potential mates. Likely true. I believe this is also true for men describing "all women", but to a lesser degree. Sigh. Well, that's illogical. And I was actually agreeing with you on something. Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 If you're looking for any modicum of intelligence or emotional stability, avoid anyone who can't discern individuality. Like, to the nth degree. Link to post Share on other sites
fortyninethousand322 Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Maybe all men are the same... Link to post Share on other sites
pbjbear Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I know a few men who are adamantly against getting married and none of them are that way because they don't want to be monogamous or be with one woman. They are scared of what will happen after marriage. They don't want to end up a divorced guy paying through the nose so he can only see his kids on weekends or being treated like a trained dog or being treated with contempt by a woman who feels she settled for him. Obviously all marriages are not like this but it is a real fear that single men have these days. When I talk to young men who have sworn off marriage this is the reason they give. I am only repeating what they say. My friend who recently dumped his girlfriend because she kept insisting on marriage despite telling her he never wants it saw how his mother treated his father and stepfather and he wants no part of that. I am afraid to get married after seeing my female friends get married. Many of them married guys that most people think as "nice guys" and the way they act scares me. If thats how a "nice guy" acts when hes been married for awhile theres little hope for me. Most men lose half their brain a few years after being married and become emotionally detached I find. They go on autopilot. Women are emotional creatures and dont respond to that well. And no, Im not describing "my husband doesnt listen to me vent 2 hrs a day" Im saying the things a boyfriend did to create emotional closeness during a relationship often goes by the wayside after they get comfortable in a marriage. I know an attorney who deals mostly with divorces and he told me over 70% of divorce papers initiated by women include emotional neglect. Its not hard for this attorney to find men who think a woman should divorce over physical abuse, but he told me when he describes emotional neglect men really dont see a problem with it. Men are not emotional creatures. Scientific studies show that married men tend to be happier than single men and that married women tend to be unhappier than single women. Men get the benefits from being married and women get the benefits from divorce. Link to post Share on other sites
ChessPieceFace Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Sigh. Well, that's illogical. And I was actually agreeing with you on something. I'm less concerned with making friends and having people agree with me than with exploring the facts of the matter. First off, dismissing ANY argument that difference exists between men and women is a sign of not living in reality. Perceived double standards must always be critically examined, yes. But that doesn't mean NO double standard is valid. For example, as I said in another thread, I believe it is more biologically normal for men to disconnect themselves from the emotional bonds of sex than women. I don't like that fact any more than you do, and I am one of the atypical men who finds cheap sex disgusting, but I'm not going to ignore reality just because it's politically correct to do so. A woman who is willing to do FWB is more atypical than a man who would do the same. Everyone would be a lot better off if they started to have an honest exploration of gender identity, rather than a politically correct one. Yes, there are men who make statements about "all women" which are in fact based on women they consider mates. However in this instance, I could cite several facts supporting the idea that this is generally less true and/or less relevant for men. First off, and once again this is supported by the biology of what I said earlier - women are more selective and restrictive of their potential dating pool than men are. This is due to the fact that women can bear only a certain number of children, and are stuck with a large biological responsibility, whereas men acting purely on base biology could sire thousands of children and ignore responsibility to any of them. So when men are thinking of the women they would date, they are almost always thinking of a much larger percentage of women than a woman thinking of the men they would date. Thus, a man complaining about "all women" and meaning only his dating pool, is still a lot closer to describing "all women." I could go on and bore everyone, especially myself, but I won't bother since I doubt you are receptive to anything I'm saying. Link to post Share on other sites
ChessPieceFace Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Most men lose half their brain a few years after being married and become emotionally detached I find. They go on autopilot. Women are emotional creatures ... Men are not emotional creatures. Wow, I really hope you find a way to stop thinking that way, for the sake of your own happiness. Scientific studies show that married men tend to be happier than single men and that married women tend to be unhappier than single women. Men get the benefits from being married and women get the benefits from divorce. At least you were right about that last half sentence. Link to post Share on other sites
pbjbear Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Wow, I really hope you find a way to stop thinking that way, for the sake of your own happiness. At least you were right about that last half sentence. My attorney friend said the vast majority of men he met, where he described an emotional neglect situation in a marriage, did not see anything wrong with it and thought it was stupid to divorce over it. Men dont really place much importance on it. Men and women are different. I would rather not be trapped in a relationship with a guy who is emotionally neglectful. Doesnt make me a bad person. If most women thoroughly read the studies that found the results I stated in my previous post, and actually comprehended it, they would become afraid of marriage as well Link to post Share on other sites
normal person Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 You've never dated me. Sorry what you've been through, I would treat you like a princess every moment of the day. I think a real hard thing for genuinely nice guys to deal with is getting lumped in with all the bad ones. I'm not picking on you Dreamerisland, but do really nice guys perhaps have a tendency to overcompensate for the bad ones, like a sort of apologist? Maybe I'm reading too much into the use of the term "princess," but If I love the girl I'm with, I don't see why I need to treat her like royalty when she's on my level in reality. Having to buy her stuff all the time even if there's no occasion, always pay for her to do everything, pick up checks, always do what she wants to do and deny my own desires, etc. That's not a sustainable relationship, and if guys act like that for too long, they're gonna reach the breaking point eventually even if they're getting the obligatory sex out of it. You'll just be bitter and resentful. What's wrong with an equal partnership? Sorry royalty, I've already limited my dating pool to the commoners and merchant class. If a girl's not an actual princess, I treat her like a normal person and I expect her to do the same for me. I don't think that's so unreasonable. Sadly, the general sentiment might be that there's something to be admired in guys who are legitimately nice these days, but the "princess" campaign seems like counterproductive overkill to me. All I want is for their to be equal effort given on both sides. If a girl wants to treat me like a prince, I tell her to tone it down and not do it because then I feel bad/obligated to return the favor on a level that I haven't reached yet. Link to post Share on other sites
pbjbear Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I think a real hard thing for genuinely nice guys to deal with is getting lumped in with all the bad ones. I'm not picking on you Dreamerisland, but do really nice guys perhaps have a tendency to overcompensate for the bad ones, like a sort of apologist? Maybe I'm reading too much into the use of the term "princess," but If I love the girl I'm with, I don't see why I need to treat her like royalty when she's on my level in reality. Having to buy her stuff all the time even if there's no occasion, always pay for her to do everything, pick up checks, always do what she wants to do and deny my own desires, etc. That's not a sustainable relationship, and if guys act like that for too long, they're gonna reach the breaking point eventually even if they're getting the obligatory sex out of it. You'll just be bitter and resentful. What's wrong with an equal partnership? Sorry royalty, I've already limited my dating pool to the commoners and merchant class. If a girl's not an actual princess, I treat her like a normal person and I expect her to do the same for me. I don't think that's so unreasonable. Sadly, the general sentiment might be that there's something to be admired in guys who are legitimately nice these days, but the "princess" campaign seems like counterproductive overkill to me. All I want is for their to be equal effort given on both sides. If a girl wants to treat me like a prince, I tell her to tone it down and not do it because then I feel bad/obligated to return the favor on a level that I haven't reached yet. I have never been treated like a princess but over 50% of the men I dated (after I got to know them...meaning after a few months and their true colors came out) all expected to be treated like princes. I have never had an exclusive relationship that was close to 50/50. Men get comfortable in relationships and leech off of you... Link to post Share on other sites
Revolver Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Every single man on this planet can be monogamous if the right woman for him comes into his life. Link to post Share on other sites
ChessPieceFace Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 If most women thoroughly read the studies that found the results I stated in my previous post, and actually comprehended it, they would become afraid of marriage as well Why would women be afraid of marriage? Pop out a couple kids and kick the chump to the curb, free income. Link to post Share on other sites
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