sunshine6 Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 What do you think are some signs of a "professional" cheater, or master manipulator in these situations? How could one distinguish between a player and someone new to the game with perhaps, somewhat, genuine feelings? 1
2sure Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 That's like a trick question, because everyone has to start somewhere, because cheating is cheating, and because this peron is telling a huge life lie to at least one important person. So, under which circumstances are those things...ok? Or a one time deal? I don't know....if an affair is successful and ends, why wouldn't he have another? If he isn't going to get a divorce...are you ok with the constant lie. You can be OK with whatever you decide to be.
Realist3 Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 It may be difficult to put into words, but you cant just tell. Nothing you can say, this or that.
2sure Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Oh also, serial cheaters are able to manipulate and lie to wives and families they love and live with. They can certainly fool someone that barely knows them. 2
Author sunshine6 Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 I disagree, Alice. I think some of definitely more calculated than others. I think some seek affairs out, while others do end up falling into them. Yes, based on conscious decisions, but nevertheless, it's not always "premeditated".
Author sunshine6 Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 Alice, I wasn't trying to imply that it "just happens". I acknowledged that there are conscious decisions that take place. My point is, not everyone SEEKS out affairs. It can begin with innocent conversation that leads to flirting that leads to feelings and desires. It is not ALWAYS intentional. Unfortunately, human emotions are not black and white. However, I do think there are malicious cheaters who DO seek out affair partners or prey on vulnerable men/women for their gain. I'm asking about distinguishing between these differences.
2sure Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 If you're at a vulnerable point of your life , dating a MM is the last thing you should do. And thats the real question...are you? Because most times women that are stable, strong, and confident date available men. So , you can't be taken advantage of if you're not vulnerable. 1
Pierre Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 What do you think are some signs of a "professional" cheater, or master manipulator in these situations? How could one distinguish between a player and someone new to the game with perhaps, somewhat, genuine feelings? Most cheating MOMs are needy, looking for external validation, and want admiration. Most actually fall in love with the OW, but cannot follow through because they also want to remain married. This is usually lethal for a naive OW. A professional philanderer just want sex. This may actually be less painful for the naive OW. 2
Author sunshine6 Posted February 4, 2013 Author Posted February 4, 2013 But will philanderers typically admit to just wanting sex? Can't some con with their words and actions and feign love? How would one tell the difference?
Pierre Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 But will philanderers typically admit to just wanting sex? Can't some con with their words and actions and feign love? How would one tell the difference? Ideally the MM should be divorcing before meeting you. Or at best be in a true exit affair where he was 99% gone and the fair pushed him to ask for a divorce. Any other scenario is a waste of your time and you will be severely hurt. This may not be obvious, to you but newbie OM, a typical dumsel in distress that needs external validation to feel good is much worse than a professional. The non professional cheater may fall in love with you inside the affair bubble and everything he says to you will be extremely convincing because he is not lying. He is madly in love with you inside the affair bubble. Then, after d-day he throws you under the bus to save his marriage. He may do this despite making promises to you. It is not so much that he is lying. It simply means the MOM was in la la land while having the affair. IMHO, this is far more dangerous for you. Because you will always see a ray of hope and you will be hooked for years. Professional philanderers may not lie very well because they don't feel what they are saying. It si all a show to get laid. Many women can see through these men and they often pick women that are very needy, naive, and looking for external validation. Since you are asking here I have to assume you are not naive.
2sure Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Long ago I had affairs with several MM. Initially each one gave me the song and dance, the love at first sight, the knight in shining armor...all that. Beautiful touching stories too. I think they believed themselves , I know they enjoyed the story telling. They were all serial cheaters. Some good signs might come from ...cheating and not getting caught takes practice. Are they good at it? Do they have an extra cell phone? Does he have several email accounts? Does he take you certain places ? You know, tricks.
Elfie Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 What do you think are some signs of a "professional" cheater, or master manipulator in these situations? How could one distinguish between a player and someone new to the game with perhaps, somewhat, genuine feelings? He was due to go away for the week with his family and told me "I want your number". It was at the start, I didn't know anything and thought wow, he's really going to miss me. He knew though, to get a complelety seperate cell phone.....and yes, further down the line he admitted his 2nd wife (is on number 3) was the result of an A, whom he went on to marry and then she cheated on him. He was cut up by that, so he doesn't seem to have faith I guess.
Catplates Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Oh also, serial cheaters are able to manipulate and lie to wives and families they love and live with. They can certainly fool someone that barely knows them. They become more polished with experience. One might easily believe a person who has cheated all their life is just beginning. After all their spouses often believe they never would.
MissBee Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 I disagree, Alice. I think some of definitely more calculated than others. I think some seek affairs out, while others do end up falling into them. Yes, based on conscious decisions, but nevertheless, it's not always "premeditated". I agree. I mentioned in another thread that while cheating is cheating, there are those who did not premeditate it but due to poor boundaries placed themselves in that position and thus stumbled, and then serial cheaters, who continuously are in these situations and those who actually are on the prowl for affairs online and elsewhere. It's hard to tell who is who besides being observant; however, even then, depending on their "professionalism", you may never tell. I guess the problem is being in a relationship with someone that automatically causes distrust and is even causing me to question if their behavior is happenstance or habit.
jwi71 Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 What do you think are some signs of a "professional" cheater, or master manipulator in these situations? The very fact they ARE cheating is clue number one. There is a BS present who is being lied to. And likely others - like in-laws, children, family, perhaps close friends and so on. How could one distinguish between a player and someone new to the game with perhaps, somewhat, genuine feelings? This question is less about how to detect a liar and more about "Can I believe him"? Its about trust. Can I trust "This"? Can I trust him to tell ME the truth? The answer is maybe. Maybe he is telling you the truth and maybe he isn't. The BEST thing you CAN do is - observe his ACTIONS. Do his actions align with what he says? With whom he portrays himself? Do you think its a healthy sign that you are doubting his word and your ability to trust him? IS this a solid foundation for a "legitimate R" with him?
Bittersweetie Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Unfortunately, human emotions are not black and white. True, human emotions are not black and white. However, commitment, and integrity is. One can either commit to their spouse and move past the emotions, or give in to the emotion and break the commitment. It's a choice. One can either hold on to their integrity, or destroy it by cheating with someone other than their spouse. Again, a choice. Either way, whether one has "fallen into" an affair, or is a serial cheater, the choice has been made, a choice that is black or white. I'm one who made the wrong choice. 1
Pierre Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 The BEST thing you CAN do is - observe his ACTIONS. Do his actions align with what he says? With whom he portrays himself? His actions show that he is cheating. What else is there to observe? Do you think its a healthy sign that you are doubting his word and your ability to trust him? Yes! I think it is very healthy to doubt the words of a known cheater. IS this a solid foundation for a "legitimate R" with him? Nope Unless you believe liars don't lie to you. 2
Pierre Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Also, someone can be experienced at cheating, but still develop very genuine feelings. Exactly! Many cheaters fall very hard for the OW and are madly in love with the OW. But, that does not solve the problem for the OP. Many cheaters that were in love change their tune after d-day and throw the OW under the bus to save the marriage with the betrayed wife. Happens all the time. This is very puzzling because the OW is usually 200% certain the MOM is not lying. When the MOM says ILY he is operating within the affair bubble and he believes his own words. But, once there is a d-day the affair bubble breaks and it is a new ball game. 2
JamesM Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 It is like asking what the signs of the best salesman are? And the answer is that the best salesman don't seem to be a good salesman. A good cheater doesn't appear to be a professional cheater. He is the one who convinces you that you are the one and you are the only one and this is his first time. If you can tell that it is a bunch of crock, then he isn't too good at it. I think the more convincing a person is, the better that person is. If you think he loves you, then he is a master. If you can see through his story, then he has failed. It is not about how many (quantity) of affairs he has had. It is about how convincing he is.
Pierre Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 It is like asking what the signs of the best salesman are? And the answer is that the best salesman don't seem to be a good salesman. A good cheater doesn't appear to be a professional cheater. He is the one who convinces you that you are the one and you are the only one and this is his first time. If you can tell that it is a bunch of crock, then he isn't too good at it. I think the more convincing a person is, the better that person is. If you think he loves you, then he is a master. If you can see through his story, then he has failed. It is not about how many (quantity) of affairs he has had. It is about how convincing he is. As usual your posts are excellent. But, I have to say again that many of these cheaters actually fall in love. The problem is that the love is only valid inside the affair bubble.
Pierre Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Thats not love Pierre that's just infatuation. Love does not get knocked over so easily. Hell even the love for their spouse survived years and even the affair...if "love" can't even survive the loss of the one you were cheating on then it ain't love to begin with. I think a more realistic explanation is that they believe they tell the truth saying ILY during the affair because they haven't really internalized what it means and it's cheap and easy to say and they get such big rewards for such small words. Believing it is true in the moment an it actually bing true are different. The difference is lack of introspection and internalizing consequences. Both typical of cheaters. He's hardly going to say "well let me think about this, how do I. Feel I'd I can't have my wife, car, kids, dog? Oh ok I love you as long as I dont lose them or anything else". Now if he did I'd say he thought about it and told the truth. Very good post. But, the cheater is a bit in la la land and starts to believe his or her own bulldookie.
jwi71 Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 As usual your posts are excellent. But, I have to say again that many of these cheaters actually fall in love. The problem is that the love is only valid inside the affair bubble. Merely repeating the OP's question... ...How does she "know" its real - and she isn't being played...or one of the usual A's? That's how I understood it anyway. Because, they DO leave sometimes. How is she to know?
JamesM Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Merely repeating the OP's question... ...How does she "know" its real - and she isn't being played...or one of the usual A's? That's how I understood it anyway. Because, they DO leave sometimes. How is she to know? I would have to say that anytime a married person pursues her, she should run. And if she begins dating someone who doesn't tell her or she thinks is single and THEN finds out he is married, she should run. As for being professional or a player or "true love," it doesn't really matter. Anyone who would cheat on their current spouse and "fall in love" with someone else has a very strong possibility of doing it again. If it was true love, then the married person would hold back on dating until he or she is divorced.
thefooloftheyear Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Thats not love Pierre that's just infatuation. Love does not get knocked over so easily. Hell even the love for their spouse survived years and even the affair...if "love" can't even survive the loss of the one you were cheating on then it ain't love to begin with. I think a more realistic explanation is that they believe they tell the truth saying ILY during the affair because they haven't really internalized what it means and it's cheap and easy to say and they get such big rewards for such small words. Believing it is true in the moment an it actually bing true are different. The difference is lack of introspection and internalizing consequences. Both typical of cheaters. He's hardly going to say "well let me think about this, how do I. Feel I'd I can't have my wife, car, kids, dog? Oh ok I love you as long as I dont lose them or anything else". Now if he did I'd say he thought about it and told the truth. Sorry, but that's just a blanket generalization perhaps based on your own life experiences...No two circumstances are alike... TFOY Edited February 4, 2013 by thefooloftheyear
JamesM Posted February 4, 2013 Posted February 4, 2013 Sorry, but that's just a blanket generalization perhaps based on your own life experiences...No two circumstances are alike... TFOY No two circumstances are alike, but there are enough commonalities that we can makes some comments regarding what occurs. "Falling in love" is another term for infatuation. I was infatuated with my wife before I loved her. It can be a form of love, but true love will not be given by a person who still is allegedly committed to another person. A marriage vow is an act of love. We commit to someone and pledge to remain faithful. So when someone chooses an affair, he or she has already shown that he cannot love. Is it possible to love two people? Not in the true sense of the word. Love is much more than a feeling. It is an action and a promise. So, any person who chooses an affair and tells the AP that he or she loves the AP...this person is already showing signs of a cheating professional.
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