Els Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 I have no interest in doing half the things you mention. Touching and teasing for instance. No interest. I don't avoid them because I'm "afraid" of doing them I avoid them because t's not who I am. I also know girls who don't want to be touched in public. I think you're proposing a fast-food style mentality to dating. All we have to do is totally conform to a big list of things we HAVE to do and then we will have success! Well, no thanks. It's totally fine to not conform as long as you're happy with where you are. If you're not, well, insanity is defined as doing the same shyt over and over again and expecting different results. 2
ChessPieceFace Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 It's totally fine to not conform as long as you're happy with where you are. If you're not, well, insanity is defined as doing the same shyt over and over again and expecting different results. "Conform to my false set of requirements and have success, or fail, if you're fine with being a failure that is" -- what a joke.
KungFuJoe Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 I'm a very self aware person and you'd think that'd help but it hasn't helped me. I don't need a shrink to tell me I'm chasing a mother and not a GF, I already know. I don't need a shrink to tell me my parents R layed the ground work for what a norm R is and that's why I'm drawn to controlling/domineering women, I already know. The problem is how do you change this? It's literally changing your subconscious and how easy is that? What am I supposed to do? Say I'm worthy of a woman 1000 times before I go to bed? It doesn't work that way. As pessimistic as it sounds I think I'm screwed. I have a relative who is on his 4th wife and she's unaffectionate just like his mom. If it was so easy to change it wouldn't breach each generation. My dad has 3 brothers, they ALL married controlling, unaffectionate women. I'm with you man...I'm TOTALLY with you. That's the million dollar question and why therapists make a ****load of money (at least I think they do). How do you fix a problem even when you know it exists? I do think that just being aware of your problem is a HUGE step. Most people are in denial or not aware of their own issues. So, in that, you're already ahead of the game, but you still got a lot of catching up to do. I know I had to hit abso****inglute rock bottom before things started to change for me. 1
KungFuJoe Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 At the bold: Having this problem now . Cut the cord...cut it NOW! Let me tell you...as ****ed up as my childhood was and as clueless I was about women...there is ONE thing that I think really helped me. I was independent since I was 15. To me, I didn't have parents. I had a dad, but my parents were divorced since I was 5 and my mom REFUSED to let me see him so our relationship was strained. And obviously, I didn't think of my mom as a "mother". She was just the crazy lady who I would come home to. And when she got thrown in a mental hospital by the time I was 18, I was completely on my own. And it might have been the best thing to ever happen to me up to that point, if that makes any sense. I was FREEEEEEEE!!!!!!
Author ThaWholigan Posted January 29, 2013 Author Posted January 29, 2013 Cut the cord...cut it NOW! Let me tell you...as ****ed up as my childhood was and as clueless I was about women...there is ONE thing that I think really helped me. I was independent since I was 15. To me, I didn't have parents. I had a dad, but my parents were divorced since I was 5 and my mom REFUSED to let me see him so our relationship was strained. And obviously, I didn't think of my mom as a "mother". She was just the crazy lady who I would come home to. And when she got thrown in a mental hospital by the time I was 18, I was completely on my own. And it might have been the best thing to ever happen to me up to that point, if that makes any sense. I was FREEEEEEEE!!!!!! Yeah, my little brother is always telling me not to let myself get treated like a child. It's hard - she does see me as too "innocent" because of my disability, but I think that I contribute to that myself by letting myself subconsciously be complacent on some levels. I need to start working a little harder to get myself on a more independent standing.
KungFuJoe Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 Yeah, my little brother is always telling me not to let myself get treated like a child. It's hard - she does see me as too "innocent" because of my disability, but I think that I contribute to that myself by letting myself subconsciously be complacent on some levels. I need to start working a little harder to get myself on a more independent standing. I can tell just from interacting with you here...you're better fit to make your own decision and live your own life than most of the people I know. Especially at your young age.
Author ThaWholigan Posted January 29, 2013 Author Posted January 29, 2013 I can tell just from interacting with you here...you're better fit to make your own decision and live your own life than most of the people I know. Especially at your young age. Yes - I just need to keep proving it to myself. Lack of conviction wasn't just a dating problem for me . I'm getting there though - I made the step to self-employment to challenge myself (and I am being very challenged right now ). I like it - the pressure excites me, not so much on the hungry days but the ideas and the positivity keep my motor running. I know my mum doesn't want to be left on her own though, but it's not like I'm abandoning her if I move out. My mother's done one hell of a stellar job IMO, I wouldn't be half the man if it wasn't for her. Me moving out won't change that - I do want that independence, it's more in line with who I am than where I'm at now.
KungFuJoe Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 Yes - I just need to keep proving it to myself. Lack of conviction wasn't just a dating problem for me . I'm getting there though - I made the step to self-employment to challenge myself (and I am being very challenged right now ). I like it - the pressure excites me, not so much on the hungry days but the ideas and the positivity keep my motor running. I know my mum doesn't want to be left on her own though, but it's not like I'm abandoning her if I move out. My mother's done one hell of a stellar job IMO, I wouldn't be half the man if it wasn't for her. Me moving out won't change that - I do want that independence, it's more in line with who I am than where I'm at now. You seem like you love your mom very much and that she raised you right. And you have a healthy outlook on women. More and more, the connection is becoming apparent.
fortyninethousand322 Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Are you any different on and offline? In order to have a positive interaction, it can't always be dead serious where it feels like a battle rather than a discussion. Try some banter if you have the need to argue. It's rare that women of any level of self-esteem, will date men who are always putting them down or need to "win" every discussion. Is that how I come across on the forum? I always thought that for every combative post I had a couple of silly posts. I'm not a mathist so maybe I'm wrong on that...
Woggle Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Cut the cord...cut it NOW! Let me tell you...as ****ed up as my childhood was and as clueless I was about women...there is ONE thing that I think really helped me. I was independent since I was 15. To me, I didn't have parents. I had a dad, but my parents were divorced since I was 5 and my mom REFUSED to let me see him so our relationship was strained. And obviously, I didn't think of my mom as a "mother". She was just the crazy lady who I would come home to. And when she got thrown in a mental hospital by the time I was 18, I was completely on my own. And it might have been the best thing to ever happen to me up to that point, if that makes any sense. I was FREEEEEEEE!!!!!! Wow this is almost exactly the way my childhood was. My mother and I used to get into fights and sometimes she would kick me out and put something in front of the door so I couldn't get back in. When I was 16 this happened and I never came back. The best way to get over this fear for men is just viewing women as people not much different from you or I. There is no one type of woman as there is no one type of man. Anybody who feels the need to tar an entire gender with a brush has some issues.
Bristolius Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Is that how I come across on the forum? I always thought that for every combative post I had a couple of silly posts. I'm not a mathist so maybe I'm wrong on that... You seem OK. To me you come off as very unhappy, yet kind of detached from it. Not angry, but sort of flat. My $.02.
AD1980 Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 I do have kind of a fear of women especially walking by them i feel im being judged lol
KungFuJoe Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Wow this is almost exactly the way my childhood was. My mother and I used to get into fights and sometimes she would kick me out and put something in front of the door so I couldn't get back in. When I was 16 this happened and I never came back. The best way to get over this fear for men is just viewing women as people not much different from you or I. There is no one type of woman as there is no one type of man. Anybody who feels the need to tar an entire gender with a brush has some issues. Yeah, but easier said than done. I think what helped my fear was having some VERY close female friends. Friends that stuck by with me in my hard times even with my male friends could care less. And we would talk about our problems together. And I started to realize...hey...these women are just the same as I am. We all have our issues and problems. I was able to just converse as if they were "people" and not women. I applied that to how I approached dating. I didn't go in with all these expectations of what was going to happen or not going to happen. I went in thinking...hey...this is a cool person I want to get to know. If it doesn't happen...no problem. If it happens...cool. And that's it.
somedude81 Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 One thing, being friends with women is very different from being intimate with women. In my mind there are two, separate, types of girls. Normal girls I see every day. At school, work, out and about. Completely non-sexual. Sexual girls. Hookers, strippers, swingers, girls in porn. Most normal men see the two types of women as one in the same. Whenever I've tried to get more intimate with a normal girl, it has always failed. And the only women I've had sex with are the "sexual girls." If it weren't crazy expensive, I wonder what it would be like hire a hooker, have her pretend to a normal girl and go on a couple of dates with her and then transition into sex. That would be a lot more "real" then meeting up in a hotel room and having sex right away.
KungFuJoe Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 One thing, being friends with women is very different from being intimate with women. In my mind there are two, separate, types of girls. Normal girls I see every day. At school, work, out and about. Completely non-sexual. Sexual girls. Hookers, strippers, swingers, girls in porn. Most normal men see the two types of women as one in the same. Whenever I've tried to get more intimate with a normal girl, it has always failed. And the only women I've had sex with are the "sexual girls." If it weren't crazy expensive, I wonder what it would be like hire a hooker, have her pretend to a normal girl and go on a couple of dates with her and then transition into sex. That would be a lot more "real" then meeting up in a hotel room and having sex right away. Well...you recognize one of your problems...that you view two separate types of "women". Look up madonna/whore complex...it applies here. You just gotta figure out how to start seeing EVERYONE as just people. Not men, not women, not sluts, not angels, not alphas, not betas....just...people.
Bristolius Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 One thing, being friends with women is very different from being intimate with women. In my mind there are two, separate, types of girls. Normal girls I see every day. At school, work, out and about. Completely non-sexual. Sexual girls. Hookers, strippers, swingers, girls in porn. Most normal men see the two types of women as one in the same. Whenever I've tried to get more intimate with a normal girl, it has always failed. And the only women I've had sex with are the "sexual girls." If it weren't crazy expensive, I wonder what it would be like hire a hooker, have her pretend to a normal girl and go on a couple of dates with her and then transition into sex. That would be a lot more "real" then meeting up in a hotel room and having sex right away. Wow, it's like your subconscious rose up and took over your keyboard. Did you read this?
KungFuJoe Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Wow, it's like your subconscious rose up and took over your keyboard. Did you read this? Yeah...but this is GOOD ****. It is. A therapist I saw (and this is pretty common stuff) suggested that I keep a journal of all my thoughts and feelings and just write them as they came. Don't filter them...don't worry about sentence structure of punctuation...just write write write. Then go back at some later time and read what you wrote and you'd be surprised at what you say.
Bristolius Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Yeah...but this is GOOD ****. It is. A therapist I saw (and this is pretty common stuff) suggested that I keep a journal of all my thoughts and feelings and just write them as they came. Don't filter them...don't worry about sentence structure of punctuation...just write write write. Then go back at some later time and read what you wrote and you'd be surprised at what you say. Yeah, it actually sounds like new info from SD.
somedude81 Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Well...you recognize one of your problems...that you view two separate types of "women". Look up madonna/whore complex...it applies here. You just gotta figure out how to start seeing EVERYONE as just people. Not men, not women, not sluts, not angels, not alphas, not betas....just...people. I've heard of the madonna/whore complex, but in a different way. For example a girl wants to have sex with a guy but he thinks that she is a good girl so he won't do anything dirty with her. My issue is that I want to turn the Madonnas into whores, but they won't let me. As it stands right now, "whores" are the only women who would actually sleep with me. I need to know a girl as a "Madonna" and see her become a "whore" to understand that one person can do both. In other words, meet a normal girl and eventually have sex with her.
Bristolius Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 the madonna/whore complex is a disorder in which women are inaccurately divided into two false categories.
somedude81 Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Madonna?whore complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In psychoanalytic literature, a Madonna–whore complex is the inability to maintain sexual arousal within a committed, loving relationship. First identified by Sigmund Freud, this psychological complex is said to develop in men who see women as either saintly Madonnas or debased prostitutes. Men with this complex desire a sexual partner who has been degraded (the whore) while they cannot desire the respected partner (the Madonna). Freud wrote: "Where such men love they have no desire and where they desire they cannot love." Clinical psychologist Uwe Hartmann, writing in 2009, stated that the complex "is still highly prevalent in today's patients". In sexual politics the view of women as either Madonnas or whores limits women's sexual expression, offering two mutually exclusive ways to construct a sexual identity.The duality implies that women must assume subservient roles, either as madonnas to be protected or as whores to be punished by men. Freud argued that the Madonna-whore complex is caused by oedipal castration fears which arise when a man experiences the affection he once felt for his mother with women he now sexually desires. In order to manage this anxiety, the man categorizes women into two groups: women he can admire and women he finds sexually attractive. Whereas the man loves women in the former category, he despises and devalues the latter group. Psychoanalyst Richard Tuch suggests that Freud offered at least one alternative explanation for the Madonna-whore complex: This earlier theory is based not on oedipal-based castration anxiety but on man's primary hatred of women, stimulated by the child’s sense that he had been made to experience intolerable frustration and/or narcissistic injury at the hands of his mother. According to this theory, in adulthood the boy-turned-man seeks to avenge these mistreatments through sadistic attacks on women who are stand-ins for mother. According to Freudian psychology, this complex often develops when the sufferer is raised by a cold and distant mother. Such a man will often court someone with qualities of his mother, hoping to fulfill a need for intimacy unmet in childhood. Often, the wife begins to be seen as mother to the husband—a "Madonna" figure—and thus not a possible object of sexual attraction. For this reason, in the mind of the sufferer, love and sex cannot be mixed. The man is therefore reluctant to have sexual relations with his wife for, according to his unconscious mind, this would be incest. He will reserve sexuality for "bad" or "dirty" women, and will not develop "normal" feelings of love in these sexual relationships. This introduces a dilemma where a man may feel unable to love any woman who can satisfy him sexually and is unable to be sexually satisfied by any woman whom he can love. -------------- It's somewhat close to what I have. But since I want to do dirty things to girls I love, the complex does not apply to me.
KungFuJoe Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Somedude, You say that now. But you've never been in love. You have to be in love to "feel" what they are talking about when describing Madonna/whore.
somedude81 Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Somedude, You say that now. But you've never been in love. You have to be in love to "feel" what they are talking about when describing Madonna/whore. I may have been in love with that girl in the picture. I also frequently fantasized about sleeping with her. A person with the complex wouldn't be able to.
KungFuJoe Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 I may have been in love with that girl in the picture. I also frequently fantasized about sleeping with her. A person with the complex wouldn't be able to. No. You were infatuated. Big difference.
Mme. Chaucer Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 I I need to know a girl as a "Madonna" and see her become a "whore" to understand that one person can do both. In other words, meet a normal girl and eventually have sex with her. So … a "normal girl" = a "Madonna," and a girl who has sex = a whore? Interesting!
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