Being scared of women

[ThaWholigan]

All you guys that struggle need to deal with this pathological fear. I used to have it - I know what it feels like. You feel like you're putting your manhood in their hands. But that's because you are. Personally, I do not attach my manhood to every single interaction I have with women - I treat it like a fun activity where my manhood can thrive - not giving away my personal power. The idea is that you have to see it as NORMAL.

 

It's NORMAL to talk to women. It's NORMAL to ask them out. It's NORMAL to get rejected or passed over. It's NORMAL that they might be attracted. It is all NORMAL. The sooner you integrate that into your thinking, the better it will be, and you will be more relaxed and it will even be more of a fun encounter.

 

But Wholigan! I always get rejected.

 

I used to "always get rejected" too. It was mostly because I was slumped. I had no sense of style, my posture reflected that I thought poorly of myself, I was afraid of being bold with women, never touched them, completely forgetting that women are people and they get nervous too, told myself I would always get rejected, thought I was unattractive etc. I did all those things.

 

Then I stopped doing them. I started to work on all those things. I got much better socially too, expanded my circle to more men and women. My posture changed. I got slimmer, I dressed better, I slowly drifted out of my shell with women. Better at talking sexually even, sometimes downright shocking. I made women feel at ease around me because I was relaxed, or I trained myself to become more relaxed naturally around women. And I stopped thinking of myself as unattractive. I reflected more pride in my appearance and as a result, I was more seen as attractive as a result. Not in a vain way, but in a way that I was happy with how I looked regardless.

 

But Wholigan! You're tall etc. You've had girls approaching you before so how can you give us advice - you have no idea what it's like. That's why you can be so happy and not bitter!!

 

Not necessarily. I wasn't attracted to the vast majority of women I was approached by. Even the very few that were attractive to me - I was terrible at dealing with it. I noted an interesting post by one such poster where he explained that women who start being "too friendly" with him cause him to slightly freak. It brought back memories for me. I used to do that. I wasn't comfortable with attraction and dealing with it. So I exposed myself to it more and just started to be brave. Even if it would make me seem occasionally creepy, I just tried to be intuitive to the vibe to be able to deal with it.

 

I also got rejected a lot too. At one point, a lot - and sometimes harshly. I never let it get the best of me. It was still fun, because I knew not all girls were like that - and there were bound to be some I liked who also found me attractive.

 

OK. But why should I have to do all that work? I have to do ALL the approaching and they just have to sit around! Why do I have to improve myself just to get some average girl to like me? It's not fair! Women are shallow!

 

People are shallow. Get used to it. Some less than others, some not at all, but some - very much so. You will run into some "shallow women" yes. But that doesn't matter, because you probably don't want to date them anyway.....

 

The problem is you see all this as super hard work. That is a massive deterrent to being attractive to women. I've spoken about one of my younger brothers a lot here. I live with him, he is 5 foot 6, and he's now balding at only 21. Guess what? He's been getting GFs since forever! .

 

And it's easy to him. He just talks to girls all the time, and anyhow. He teases the f*ck out of them, all the time. Doesn't treat them like sh*t, but he knows how to banter with them and be attractive to them, despite the whole "short guy" stigma that only seems to exist on the internet. Why is it easy?

 

Because of the exposure. He exposed himself more socially and was ambitious with it - wise-cracking, teasing, innuendos, knowing how to be sexual with ones words......these are all ways to get better.

 

Look at MrCastle! Probably an inch taller than my brother, skinny dude - pushed himself towards being better. Learned how to emotionally deal with whatever rejections he may have had. And even better - he had STANDARDS! Sure, he only goes for casual, but this can work for relationships too. He is somewhat picky himself. He's not desperate.

 

I reckon if more of you guys had more standards about what you wanted for yourself and from the women you wish to date, you would probably be somewhat more attractive. Not to tout this as necessarily a great thing, but that can be perceived as an unavailability and being "hard-to-get". If you believe in that kind of thing, that can attract women too - seen guys fall for that from some women aswell.

 

It doesn't matter - it's too hard. I can't do it, I'll always be this way.

 

Well then you have nothing to complain about. Because you're telling yourself that you will always be unattractive and never get anywhere, so that is what you're gonna get. That's what you deserve then. I'm gonna contradict myself a little bit here, but I'll reference the "working" part of being attractive. You have to work to get good at a lot of things. I had to "work" to be attractive, but after a while and after taking control of my perceptions, it wasn't work - it was just things that I did. Necessary, second nature.

 

If you keep telling yourself it's hard, it will always be hard. If you keep telling yourself women suck and are shallow, you will constantly run into shallow women who suck. If you keep blaming women's attractions, or evo-psych or whatever it is you blame, that will absolutely become your reality and that will be it. Study game if you want! Don't get caught up in all the extra stuff - just the stuff you need to augment who you are.

 

In closing, we tell ourselves it hard to talk to women. When you start to relax and reframe it as a normal, social activity - it really isn't all that hard. Even rejection just becomes something slightly negative that happens, rather than the soul-crushing experience that you tell yourself that it is. Just go f*cking talk to em - be bold, be relaxed. Stop telling yourself all that other sh*t about how unattractive you are and all that stuff. All that self-talk will manifest!

 

But Wholigan! Nobody can tell this is what I think. I'm always happy and people say that I'm a good guy

 

Sure, they say that. That doesn't mean it doesn't manifest. I can guarantee that it does, because it used to happen to me! I wasn't always this super-positive person and I'm still not! But I'm even keeled, and I embrace my positives and accept the negatives. And I realized that whenever I was pessimistic about life and dating, it SHOWED. Even if I tried to put a smile on, it showed. Even if I was happy and cool and loved - it SHOWED! So when I started to be more bold and positive, more sexual and confident, more relaxed and playful - it SHOWED TOO!! And it made people see me slightly differently. They knew I was the same guy - but I had finally arrived. I was coming out of my shell.

 

So that's what you have to do. You don't have to be a super-extroverted guy. I'm quite a loner if I'm honest, I spend a lot of time alone. But I also like to be around people too, and I am socially savvy because I trained myself to be. You have to do it too. And don't be scared of women. They are people too, they get nervous just like you - they get scared. So just be the one to ease the tension. And then build up some! .

 

That's all. Till next time.........

[Treasa]

Dude, how many times have I told you to stop being so logical and making sense? Sheesh.

[ThaWholigan]

I'd also like to add:

 

Part of making this a fun activity is to not expect so much. Don't take it so seriously. Don't be - I'm gonna sound like a PUA here, but.....- don't be "outcome dependent". Don't place all your hopes on her saying yes. Her saying yes to being asked out should be a very welcome bonus to what was an intriguing and fun interaction which will be continued.

[Treasa]

I'd also like to add:

 

Part of making this a fun activity is to not expect so much. Don't take it so seriously. Don't be - I'm gonna sound like a PUA here, but.....- don't be "outcome dependent". Don't place all your hopes on her saying yes. Her saying yes to being asked out should be a very welcome bonus to what was an intriguing and fun interaction which will be continued.

 

YES. THIS. Enjoy the experience.

 

I've gone through Reiki certification and attunement, and letting go of the outcome is important there, too. It doesn't make the process any less rewarding.

[ChessPieceFace]

I have no interest in doing half the things you mention. Touching and teasing for instance. No interest. I don't avoid them because I'm "afraid" of doing them I avoid them because t's not who I am. I also know girls who don't want to be touched in public. I think you're proposing a fast-food style mentality to dating. All we have to do is totally conform to a big list of things we HAVE to do and then we will have success! Well, no thanks.

[ThaWholigan]

I have no interest in doing half the things you mention. Touching and teasing for instance. No interest. I don't avoid them because I'm "afraid" of doing them I avoid them because t's not who I am. I also know girls who don't want to be touched in public. I think you're proposing a fast-food style mentality to dating. All we have to do is totally conform to a big list of things we HAVE to do and then we will have success! Well, no thanks.

Why isn't it "who you are"? You don't have a sense of humor? You don't ever touch girls, ever?

 

It's not a "fast-food style" mentality. It's called "having a personality". I don't do exactly what everybody else does - I do what's comfortable with me within certain parameters. I'm not advocating that people rigidly stick to this - I'm advocating that this is a launching pad towards actually attracting a woman (or women).

 

Again, that seeing it as "conforming" is almost exactly the same as seeing it as "too much work".

 

Nothing to complain about.

[AlexDP]

All you guys that struggle need to deal with this pathological fear. I used to have it - I know what it feels like. You feel like you're putting your manhood in their hands. But that's because you are. Personally, I do not attach my manhood to every single interaction I have with women.

 

I only talk to women while they hold my manhood. Or suck it. In any case I must be stimulated at all times.

[ChessPieceFace]

Why isn't it "who you are"? You don't have a sense of humor?

 

When I was very young my older sister verbally and emotionally abused me on a continual basis. It was her goal in life to destroy any joy I felt to make sure I was always miserable. Making me miserable made her happy. When she teased me it was always with the intention of making me cry. As a result I learned to suppress the expression of positive emotion and act miserable so she'd leave me alone. I take teasing personally because that's always how it was during my formative years - personal, and not at all in fun.

 

So yeah, I'm a very broken individual due to that abuse. However, I still don't understand why teasing is required. If it's required I should probably just give up.

 

You don't ever touch girls, ever?

 

Well no, I don't. But that's because I'm never in the situation to do so. I have no problem with the idea of being touchy-feely in private with someone I would be involved with. However, you're talking about being touchy-feely in public with a stranger. I see that as the kind of thing players do, not gentlemen.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Meh. I approach women. I always have (at least in the past 10 years). I keep it simple and pounce when I see an opening.

 

I just wish they would help me a little bit more. Do at least a LITTLE of the work.

 

Rarely if ever happens.

 

Goes back to what Pyro said about nixing the person if they don't meet your physical qualifications.

[ThaWholigan]

When I was very young my older sister verbally and emotionally abused me on a continual basis. It was her goal in life to destroy any joy I felt to make sure I was always miserable. Making me miserable made her happy. When she teased me it was always with the intention of making me cry. As a result I learned to suppress the expression of positive emotion and act miserable so she'd leave me alone. I take teasing personally because that's always how it was during my formative years - personal, and not at all in fun.

 

So yeah, I'm a very broken individual due to that abuse. However, I still don't understand why teasing is required. If it's required I should probably just give up.

 

I see. That kinda f*cks things up for you. I'm not gonna go all "therapy" on you, but yeah - that should be dealt with. I understand taking teasing seriously - I'm autistic so I took it all to heart too. All throughout school, any kind of teasing rubbed me the wrong way. I was sensitive to it. Then one day, with the help of my father in his own irrepressible way, I learned how to deal with it, by not attaching so much heart to it. It was just banter to me. It's like that now.

 

Teasing isn't necessarily required - but it's great for building up romantic tension between you and a woman. It doesn't have to be straight up teasing, it can be light. Playful conversation with a little spice added.

 

Well no, I don't. But that's because I'm never in the situation to do so. I have no problem with the idea of being touchy-feely in private with someone I would be involved with. However, you're talking about being touchy-feely in public with a stranger. I see that as the kind of thing players do, not gentlemen.

 

I don't go around touching strange girls all the time. What kind of man do you think I am?

 

But yeah, if you want to get romantic with a girl, logic dictates you should touch her occasionally. If in public, and you're just getting to know her, a light brush of the arm of shoulder a couple times is more than enough in some cases.

 

Meh. I approach women. I always have (at least in the past 10 years). I keep it simple and pounce when I see an opening.

 

I just wish they would help me a little bit more. Do at least a LITTLE of the work.

 

Rarely if ever happens.

 

Goes back to what Pyro said about nixing the person if they don't meet your physical qualifications.

 

There goes that word again. Work. If they aren't doing anything, I advocate walking away. Don't do too much "work" . It's meant to be fun, right? If she's not having fun, you go have fun somewhere else .

[fortyninethousand322]

I used to be a brave guy. In high school I asked probably the most aesthetically gorgeous woman I've ever met for her phone number (the only time I made the mistake of bothering with objectively "hot" women). I also asked a girl to dance at homecoming. But, that was the high point of things. After that I kind of wised up. Started to think too much. Had things happen to me that made me question a lot of my preconceived notions about women. Especially how they act if they like you, etc.

 

I'm not sure I can go back to the naive way of being.

[SmileFace]

I only talk to women while they hold my manhood. Or suck it. In any case I must be stimulated at all times.

Well with that comment I am guessing the DP in your name stands for double penetration?

[KungFuJoe]

TheWholigan,

 

You always make a lot of sense but I think, when it comes to fear, you have to find the root cause of that fear.

 

You can tell a person, til you turn blue in the face, not to fear rejection...it won't make a lick of difference.

 

Try telling someone who has a fear of heights, "don't worry...now get up on that roof!" Impossible.

 

Now, you can overcome your fear by simply "manning up" and getting up on that roof over and over again. But, imagine climbing up and falling off the roof. You're already scared to death of heights...and you just confirmed your fears. Now your fear has doubled. You're even shakier and unsure as you attempt to climb the ladder once again and because of this, you fall again...and again..and again...until you're numb with fear, unable to do anything but stand firmly on the ground, looking up at the roof and saying to yourself, "**** it...I don't need this ****."

[ThaWholigan]

TheWholigan,

 

You always make a lot of sense but I think, when it comes to fear, you have to find the root cause of that fear.

 

You can tell a person, til you turn blue in the face, not to fear rejection...it won't make a lick of difference.

 

Try telling someone who has a fear of heights, "don't worry...now get up on that roof!" Impossible.

 

Now, you can overcome your fear by simply "manning up" and getting up on that roof over and over again. But, imagine climbing up and falling off the roof. You're already scared to death of heights...and you just confirmed your fears. Now your fear has doubled. You're even shakier and unsure as you attempt to climb the ladder once again and because of this, you fall again...and again..and again...until you're numb with fear, unable to do anything but stand firmly on the ground, looking up at the roof and saying to yourself, "**** it...I don't need this ****."

 

I hear you.

 

I would question whether they even want to get to the root of whatever is holding them back. I think that you are right about that preceding all that bravado . But I think they are comfortable being scared unfortunately - or being sad.

[pbjbear]

You always have thoughtful posts. I just cannot imagine men being afraid of women

[TheZebra]

despite the whole "short guy" stigma that only seems to exist on the internet.

 

I was just thinking about this this weekend. I went dancing w/some friends and saw so many guys that were 5'5-5'9 with beautiful girls. In fact, I see this everywhere! Every restaurant I go to I also see so many 'short' guys with dates. I think guys who use the short thing to define why they can't get dates are finding an excuse.

[somedude81]

Your post is way too long. I just got out of class and I don't want to read any more essays.

 

So while skimming I caught this thing.

Even the very few that were attractive to me - I was terrible at dealing with it. I noted an interesting post by one such poster where he explained that women who start being "too friendly" with him cause him to slightly freak. It brought back memories for me. I used to do that. I wasn't comfortable with attraction and dealing with it. So I exposed myself to it more and just started to be brave. Even if it would make me seem occasionally creepy, I just tried to be intuitive to the vibe to be able to deal with it.

So what are you suggesting I do? Go to strip clubs more often?

 

What other environments can I do where I'm exposed to that kind of closeness from women. The whole reason I get freaked out is because it never happens to me.

 

One thing I want to mention that I have no problem with innocent touching with women, like doing a salsa dance, because there is some distance, and it's rarely ever sexual. When a girl starts getting dirty, that's when I freak out.

 

I had a woman flirt with me pretty heavily through PM's and due to me not knowing how to react I ended up making her feel like a creep. Complete fail from me.

 

Obviously the answer is that I need more sexual contact with women to get comfortable with it. Though how I'm supposed to actually get more sexual contact with women to make me comfortable with it? Hell if I know.

[Aslanbek]

You always have thoughtful posts. I just cannot imagine men being afraid of women

 

Why can't you imagine that? I am married but really didn't date as a young man. I expect to be divorced soon, and I am scared to death of dating. Women have always frightened me, pretty much because I just don't understand them.

[normal person]

I used to be a brave guy. In high school I asked probably the most aesthetically gorgeous woman I've ever met for her phone number (the only time I made the mistake of bothering with objectively "hot" women). I also asked a girl to dance at homecoming. But, that was the high point of things. After that I kind of wised up. Started to think too much. Had things happen to me that made me question a lot of my preconceived notions about women. Especially how they act if they like you, etc.

 

I'm not sure I can go back to the naive way of being.

 

In my opinion, projecting the negative tendencies of a few women you've met onto all the women you've never met is much more naive.

[MrCastle]

You always have thoughtful posts. I just cannot imagine men being afraid of women

 

It's their beauty. At least that was the case for me. You're nervous about not looking attractive enough in front of them, or not coming across as cool enough, or doing/saying something that makes you look stupid. You get uptight around women you find stunning. You treat them like alien specimens. Interestingly enough, if you treat them like regular people, your odds of getting them improve.

 

I mentioned in the other thread how strippers helped me get over that fear, as well as just being in NYC and seeing all types of girls that could model (or do model) walking around. You spend a day in the city it's very possible to run into several hundred gorgeous women. It kind of numbs you after a while. I've since gotten over my fear of teh wimminz

[fortyninethousand322]

In my opinion, projecting the negative tendencies of a few women you've met onto all the women you've never met is much more naive.

 

Perhaps. But it's not just "a few" and they were quite different women.

 

I've never had an interaction with a woman and felt like "gee, I think she looks forward to spending time with me" or "gee, I think she likes me". One time I thought that had happened, but I was wrong. In contrast, I have met many women who looked for an escape route as soon as I tried speaking with them, or gave me curt answers, or generally appeared annoyed that I was in their presence. It's going to take an awful lot for me to trust that any woman would want to date me.

 

I've seen how girls interact with guys they like or are interested in. There's a certain "je ne sais quoi" that goes on. But you can see it. I've never experienced that.

[normal person]

Perhaps. But it's not just "a few" and they were quite different women.

 

I've never had an interaction with a woman and felt like "gee, I think she looks forward to spending time with me" or "gee, I think she likes me". One time I thought that had happened, but I was wrong. In contrast, I have met many women who looked for an escape route as soon as I tried speaking with them, or gave me curt answers, or generally appeared annoyed that I was in their presence. It's going to take an awful lot for me to trust that any woman would want to date me.

 

I've seen how girls interact with guys they like or are interested in. There's a certain "je ne sais quoi" that goes on. But you can see it. I've never experienced that.

 

Everyone's had a bad experience with the opposite sex, most people don't give up afterwards though. Not everyone on the planet is going to be attracted to a person. In fact, the overwhelming majority of people won't be. I'm sure there are plenty of women who don't like Brad Pitt for whatever reason. An absence of attraction isn't necessarily cause for concern, for most people it's par for the course. It certainly doesn't warrant a fear of women.

 

If you're not getting results with girls, you need to reexamine your approach to women and their perception of you rather than dismissing them all because of a few bad experiences. Try and view yourself and your actions from someone else's eyes (even a gender neutral person's) and fix what you see that's not so appealing. That's what I like to do and I find it to be helpful. "Progress comes from trial and error, when we're free to try things and free to reject ideas that don't work." - That's from your signature. It's pretty applicable here, I think.

 

I've seen how girls interact with guys they like or are interested in. There's a certain "je ne sais quoi" that goes on. But you can see it. I've never experienced that.

 

If attraction isn't given, you have to earn it. I'm sure there are a lot of girls here who will tell you they've met guys who they weren't attracted to at first but then became so later. It's because the guy appealed to a certain sensibility of hers that wasn't necessarily physical. There's usually an internal mechanism that has nothing to do with physical attraction that can attract people. Something like "Wow, he's really passionate about X" or "I admire the way he can X." Appeal will vary for everyone, but you surely have some qualities that are attractive to some women, you just need an appropriate forum for them.

[fortyninethousand322]

I don't know if I fear women. It's more like I don't view myself as their equal.

 

I avoid interacting with women because it's stressful. I have to be on my A game all the time, no mistakes or missteps.

[KungFuJoe]

I don't know if I fear women. It's more like I don't view myself as their equal.

 

I avoid interacting with women because it's stressful. I have to be on my A game all the time, no mistakes or missteps.

 

If I was a psychologist, I would jump all over what you just said.

 

So many red flags.

 

Not their equal? Stressful just interacting with women? "A" game?

 

You're scared to death of women. Now you have to ask yourself...WHY?

 

Because you WANT SOMETHING that they've got...and because of this they hold POWER over you.

 

Of course, this is all in your head. In reality, they have nothing that you need that you couldn't get from someone else and therefore they have no power over you.

[pbjbear]

It's their beauty. At least that was the case for me. You're nervous about not looking attractive enough in front of them

 

Ahhh thanks for explaining that.

Outside of NYC I am prob a 7 or 8 but in NYC Im prob a 5...