Those of you having dating issues....

[PJKino]

To further answer the question i do think theyres a slight correlation in my lack of female friends and dating becasue i dont relate to a lot of females that well and seem to struggle to find common interests and/or things to talk about..

 

With that said i dont think if its just a female thing..im very shy until i get to know somebody well..even most of my male friends i met through other friends.

 

One of my main problems is im not good at chatting up strangers and talking to people i dont know anyhtign about which hurts me because my only option is cold approaches since i have no single women in my social circle

[KungFuJoe]

No. I disagree with the overall premise of this thread.

 

I believe being friends with the opposite sex helps you relate to them in a friendly way. It doesn't help you romantically. Some of the posts in here agree with that belief.

 

I'm an example of someone who refused to be friends, and ironically, that did more for my dating success than most other things.

 

Actually...you don't count.

 

You're not looking for a relationship. In fact, though you may not have stated it directly, your stance appears to be that you are AGAINST relationships.

 

I'm talking about men and women who are having trouble finding even a single date or something long lasting with someone they care about.

 

My premise is that in order to have a healthy relationship with someone, you need to be able to see them as PEOPLE, first and foremost.

[somedude81]

These female friends...did you LIKE all of them romantically? Or were you ok with just being friends with some of them?

It's been a mix.

 

The most recent girl, I liked her first but my approach and fallowing interactions with her were too friendly and she had no idea I was interested in her. Eventually I began to think of her as a good friend while my "romantic" feelings for her grew. She obviously didn't get any non-friend feelings for me.

 

The girl before her was a coworker and we hung out strictly as friends. Despite her being almost the opposite of my type, I ended up getting feelings for her. It just happened over time and hanging out with her.

 

I'd say that about 95% of my close friendships with women ended because I eventually fell for them and they did not want to date me.

 

It should go without saying that I never even got as much as a kiss on the cheek from any of those girls.

[MrCastle]

Actually...you don't count.[/Quote]

 

Ouch

 

You're not looking for a relationship. In fact, though you may not have stated it directly, your stance appears to be that you are AGAINST relationships.[/Quote]

 

I'll state it directly: I am against relationships.

 

Maybe I misread, but I was under the assumption this was not exclusive to relationships but dating in general. Dating meaning, the ability to meet someone and go on dates with the possibility of either a casual hookup or an exclusive relationship.

 

I'm talking about men and women who are having trouble finding even a single date or something long lasting with someone they care about.[/Quote]

 

Yes but with the assumption that maybe their luck will change if they had friends of the opposite sex to relate to.

 

My premise is that in order to have a healthy relationship with someone, you need to be able to see them as PEOPLE, first and foremost.

 

I see and treat everyone as people. We're all different, we're all individuals.

 

My stance is simply that being friends with the opposite sex will not help you romantically. Funny how the people who usually have the least amount of success are the ones who get friendzoned the most.

 

Because they used to believe what it seems you're saying. Either that 1.) Being friends will give you experience in how to deal with the opposite sex or 2.) Being friends first will open the doors to a relationship later with that person.

 

Either way, that doesn't really hold true in reality. Sure there are instances where friends turn to lovers, but it is rare. Some people have been in the friendzone for years and never got anywhere. If someone wants you romantically, they're going to want to date you. You don't need to 1.) Be friends with or 2.) Have friends of the opposite sex to improve your romantic life. People are either going to dig you or they're not.

[KungFuJoe]

It's been a mix.

 

The most recent girl, I liked her first but my approach and fallowing interactions with her were too friendly and she had no idea I was interested in her. Eventually I began to think of her as a good friend while my "romantic" feelings for her grew. She obviously didn't get any non-friend feelings for me.

 

The girl before her was a coworker and we hung out strictly as friends. Despite her being almost the opposite of my type, I ended up getting feelings for her. It just happened over time and hanging out with her.

 

I'd say that about 95% of my close friendships with women ended because I eventually fell for them and they did not want to date me.

 

It should go without saying that I never even got as much as a kiss on the cheek from any of those girls.

 

Ok...I'm seeing something of a pattern here.

 

Here is the last sentence of JuneJulySeptember's post (btw...where the eff is August?):

 

"I'm fine talking to women, but they just for the most part don't find me attractive."

 

And here is your last sentence:

 

"It should go without saying that I never even got as much as a kiss on the cheek from any of those girls."

 

If I was to play psychologist, I would say that both of these sentences say a lot. Other than the obvious self loathing...it also shows that you have an inordinate amount of "expectation" or "hope" for RETURN attraction (more than just friendship) on their part. I say this because I did not ask for any information on whether or not they liked you in return, but yet you felt "compelled" to share this.

 

And I think that's part of the problem. Again, a lot of this is just random thoughts in my head and trying to piece together what appears to be a huge puzzle...but I'm wondering if it's your PERCEPTION of the female sex that is limiting your "success" in someway.

 

Food for thought....

[KungFuJoe]

I'll state it directly: I am against relationships.

 

Then no offense again, but you don't apply to the premise of this thread.

[somedude81]

Ok...I'm seeing something of a pattern here.

 

Here is the last sentence of JuneJulySeptember's post (btw...where the eff is August?):

 

"I'm fine talking to women, but they just for the most part don't find me attractive."

 

And here is your last sentence:

 

"It should go without saying that I never even got as much as a kiss on the cheek from any of those girls."

 

If I was to play psychologist, I would say that both of these sentences say a lot. Other than the obvious self loathing...it also shows that you have an inordinate amount of "expectation" or "hope" for RETURN attraction (more than just friendship) on their part. I say this because I did not ask for any information on whether or not they liked you in return, but yet you felt "compelled" to share this.

 

And I think that's part of the problem. Again, a lot of this is just random thoughts in my head and trying to piece together what appears to be a huge puzzle...but I'm wondering if it's your PERCEPTION of the female sex that is limiting your "success" in someway.

 

Food for thought....

Inordinate amount of expectation or hope? Dude it's perfectly natural to hope that your friend that you have a crush on starts to like you back. Surely you know that millions of men have been in this situation? How do you think the term Friendzone came to be? Occasionally this happens to women as well. Though they usually end up having sex with the guy, where he just thinks of her as sex friend.

 

What do you mean about my perception of women?

 

BTW, have you seen the picture of me and my old crush? I can PM it to you if you're curious.

[MrCastle]

Then no offense again, but you don't apply to the premise of this thread.

 

So you're just going to ignore the rest of my post? Cheap. I was genuinely interested in talking about this.

[KungFuJoe]

So you're just going to ignore the rest of my post? Cheap. I was genuinely interested in talking about this.

 

I wasn't ignoring it...I just didn't want to derail the thread.

 

I just think you don't apply because you're not looking for a relationship. You're actually doing the OPPOSITE of what people on LS are trying to do. Most of the people here are looking for "love"...not the next hookup.

 

Your "ways" work for YOUR goal. Casual sex and nothing more. You don't agree with me, but your "ways" will not help you in finding love. If anything, it's actually a deterrent.

 

Anyways...I know you don't agree with me which is why I didn't want to get into a back and forth on why.

[MrCastle]

I wasn't ignoring it...I just didn't want to derail the thread.

 

I just think you don't apply because you're not looking for a relationship. You're actually doing the OPPOSITE of what people on LS are trying to do. Most of the people here are looking for "love"...not the next hookup.

 

Your "ways" work for YOUR goal. Casual sex and nothing more. You don't agree with me, but your "ways" will not help you in finding love. If anything, it's actually a deterrent.

 

Anyways...I know you don't agree with me which is why I didn't want to get into a back and forth on why.

 

Fair enough but I'm still kind of unclear as to what exactly we're saying here.

 

Are you saying that in order to have a meaningful relationship, you MUST be friends first? Are you ready to commit to that? What about all the people who found love via OLD. They started off as strangers going on dates, and then eventually fell in love. No initial friendship involved. And I'm willing to bet most relationships start that way. With two people looking to date and eventually becoming exclusive.

 

My reason for believing that is because most people who are friends with the opposite sex, never go anywhere with that individual. Hence "the friendzone". If someone digs you romantically, they are gonna want to be romantic with you, not friendly.

 

As far as my beliefs and ideas limiting the possibility of a relationship, I've been asked many times to be exclusive with someone, only for me to reject their offer. So while it does prevent me from getting seriously involved, it's because I've made it that way. My dating strategy can land me a girlfriend if I really wanted one, I just don't want one right now.

[KungFuJoe]

Inordinate amount of expectation or hope? Dude it's perfectly natural to hope that your friend that you have a crush on starts to like you back. Surely you know that millions of men have been in this situation? How do you think the term Friendzone came to be? Occasionally this happens to women as well. Though they usually end up having sex with the guy, where he just thinks of her as sex friend.

 

What do you mean about my perception of women?

 

BTW, have you seen the picture of me and my old crush? I can PM it to you if you're curious.

 

Have you ever had a female friend that you were NOT infatuated with? Where you wanted nothing more than to just be friends with her?

 

BTW...I saw your pic.

 

Dude...I have to be honest. I really was expecting someone MUCH less attractive. I think the girl in that pic is cute and to be honest, if I saw you walking down the street together, I would think you were a couple.

 

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all, the guys here aren't NEARLY as bad looking as they think they are.

 

Which is why I keep coming back to the SAME POINT. Your problem is NOT looks. There's something else.

 

*I* think it's a perception of women...how you "view" them. This, in turn, causes you to emit a certain "vibe" that is off putting to women. Look, I know the definition of "vibe" is very vague...some people think it doesn't even exist. Others think good looks = vibe. But it's there. You can't see it...and most people can't sense their own vibe. But that "feeling" you get when you stand next to someone and engage in idle chat...that person is feeling something in return and it's YOUR vibe.

[Lonely Ronin]

If someone wants you romantically, they're going to want to date you. You don't need to 1.) Be friends with or 2.) Have friends of the opposite sex to improve your romantic life. People are either going to dig you or they're not.

 

This is wrong on a lot of levels. To many guys expect women to be instantly attracted to them from the first glance. Most people don't work that way, let alone women they need to get to know someone a little before they decide if they are romantically interested.

 

This is why I almost always treat a woman that i just meet like she might become a new friend. I might change my mind a few hours down the road after getting to know her a little. Either way I get to know her, and I make she gets to know me. Some times sparks fly the first time i meet them some times it might take running into them a few times before something happens.

 

This happened with a woman I dated over the summer that i meet at a coffee shop. we talked a little bit, but we both had to be someplace else, so the conversation never really got going. 2 or 3 weeks later I ran into her again and after talking for a while we walked to by a near by bar/restaurant and had dinner together. She wasn't really into me as far as i could tell until a few hours into are second encounter. she needed some time to get to know me.

 

so like I said I treated her like a friend/acquaintance initially. I wasn't going to pretend to be a woman's friend in the hopes that she would like me like so many men here on ls seem to do. You can't wait forever to rule a woman out as a romantic interest either. it's an art that can't really be taught I think. Some women might know if they are romantically interested in you on first sight, others might take several meetings to decide.

 

And opposite sex friends can help your dating life. 3 of the last 6 women i have dated have been friends of female friends.

[Lonely Ronin]

.

My reason for believing that is because most people who are friends with the opposite sex, never go anywhere with that individual. Hence "the friendzone".

 

You aren't suppose to become friends with them in the hopes of dating them, you become friends with them because you like them as a person. That seems to be the real problem for some guys, they can't be around a pretty woman without falling for them.

[MrCastle]

 

This is wrong on a lot of levels. To many guys expect women to be instantly attracted to them from the first glance. Most people don't work that way, let alone women they need to get to know someone a little before they decide if they are romantically interested.

 

This is why I almost always treat a woman that i just meet like she might become a new friend. I might change my mind a few hours down the road after getting to know her a little. Either way I get to know her, and I make she gets to know me. Some times sparks fly the first time i meet them some times it might take running into them a few times before something happens.

 

This happened with a woman I dated over the summer that i meet at a coffee shop. we talked a little bit, but we both had to be someplace else, so the conversation never really got going. 2 or 3 weeks later I ran into her again and after talking for a while we walked to by a near by bar/restaurant and had dinner together. She wasn't really into me as far as i could tell until a few hours into are second encounter. she needed some time to get to know me.

 

so like I said I treated her like a friend/acquaintance initially. I wasn't going to pretend to be a woman's friend in the hopes that she would like me like so many men here on ls seem to do. You can't wait forever to rule a woman out as a romantic interest either. it's an art that can't really be taught I think. Some women might know if they are romantically interested in you on first sight, others might take several meetings to decide.

 

And opposite sex friends can help your dating life. 3 of the last 6 women i have dated have been friends of female friends.

 

So explain to me why my dating life improved significantly when I stopped trying to "make friends" with women first. And also explain why every woman I've made friends with turned into nothing?

[MrCastle]

You aren't suppose to become friends with them in the hopes of dating them, you become friends with them because you like them as a person. That seems to be the real problem for some guys, they can't be around a pretty woman without falling for them.

 

Yeah. Those silly heterosexual single guys and their wanting to be romantic with an attractive female. When will they learn?

[Treasa]

So explain to me why my dating life improved significantly when I stopped trying to "make friends" with women first. And also explain why every woman I've made friends with turned into nothing?

 

I think a lot of women like the pursuit. You seem less approachable, which to many women equals more desirable. I was like that at one point, too. I figured, "Oh, if he's this aloof, he must be really amazing and have tons of girls wanting him. Therefore I must get him."

 

I dunno. That's just my theory. But now I have a question. Do you truly not want a relationship, or are you scared of getting hurt again?

[Lonely Ronin]

So explain to me why my dating life improved significantly when I stopped trying to "make friends" with women first. And also explain why every woman I've made friends with turned into nothing?

 

Treasa gives one possible good reason.

 

Like i said, I don't advocate making friends with a woman and then hoping it becomes something more, That stupid. What i advocate is treating any new woman you meet like she might not become anything more than a friend.

 

Do you see the difference?

[Lonely Ronin]

Yeah. Those silly heterosexual single guys and their wanting to be romantic with an attractive female. When will they learn?

 

lol, if all it takes is a pretty face and a non bitchy personality to get them all worked up they are going to have problems for a long time.....

[MrCastle]

I think a lot of women like the pursuit. You seem less approachable, which to many women equals more desirable. I was like that at one point, too. I figured, "Oh, if he's this aloof, he must be really amazing and have tons of girls wanting him. Therefore I must get him."

 

I dunno. That's just my theory. But now I have a question. Do you truly not want a relationship, or are you scared of getting hurt again?

 

I don't want a relationship because I like my freedom, I like the ability to have fun with multiple women, all whom have different things I'm attracted to. I also don't have the time to commit to a relationship when I'm focused on school and my career.

 

But anyway, yeah. If it were this simple (making friends) then we would have more success stories around here. The problem is, some men actually grew up believing this and that's why they are where they are. If a woman likes you, she is not going to risk losing you to someone else. You two are going to date.

 

Men and women can be friends if they're not attracted to each other, fine, but then that doesn't go with OP's premise that the reason why some men are struggling is because they have no friendships with women.

 

Some of the men have chimed in that they have/had friendships with women and that hasn't helped. I have 0 female friends. I'm successful.

 

Being successful romantically has no bearing on whether or not you can make friends.

[KungFuJoe]

Fair enough but I'm still kind of unclear as to what exactly we're saying here.

 

Are you saying that in order to have a meaningful relationship, you MUST be friends first? Are you ready to commit to that? What about all the people who found love via OLD. They started off as strangers going on dates, and then eventually fell in love. No initial friendship involved. And I'm willing to bet most relationships start that way. With two people looking to date and eventually becoming exclusive.

 

My reason for believing that is because most people who are friends with the opposite sex, never go anywhere with that individual. Hence "the friendzone". If someone digs you romantically, they are gonna want to be romantic with you, not friendly.

 

As far as my beliefs and ideas limiting the possibility of a relationship, I've been asked many times to be exclusive with someone, only for me to reject their offer. So while it does prevent me from getting seriously involved, it's because I've made it that way. My dating strategy can land me a girlfriend if I really wanted one, I just don't want one right now.

 

No...I definitely don't believe you should be friends first...and I don't believe you shouldn't. It's irrelevant and not the point I'm trying to make.

 

I'm saying that you need to be able to see the opposite sex as "people". Not as a means to an end. If you just think of this world and all the people on it...as just that...a bunch of people. Among this gigantic pool of people, you will "pull" certain ones and establish relationships. Some will be friends, some will be lovers, some will be enemies (hopefully not), etc.

 

I think certain people look at the other sex like something out of "mystery". Look at all the posts on LS regarding "All women do this" or "All men do that". Never a post about "People do this". All of these "complaining" threads have an underlying tone of FEAR. What do people fear? The unknown. But this fear is caused by your PERCEPTION of the opposite sex. But, when it comes down it, we are all just a bunch of PEOPLE...with our own characteristics, our own personalities...our own likes...dislikes, etc.

 

How many people here feel more "nervous" talking to a member of the opposite sex? If you had a choice...2 hours in a room full of 20 people of the same sex...or opposite sex? What would you choose. And before you guys (and girls) all jump in and say "of course the opposite sex...SCORE!!!"...really give it a good DEEP thought.

 

Really consider if you would not just freeze in an ultimate anxiety attack or if you really would be completely at ease. You don't have to answer this question here in this thread, but answer it in your own head.

 

Fear is the hardest emotion to hide. You can feign happiness...you can feign anger and even sadness. But fear? Can't hide it...can't fake it. When you're standing next to that girl (or guy) and you find yourself stressing over:

 

- What if I have nothing to say?

- Where do I put my hands?

- What if she thinks I sound like an idiot?

- What if she thinks I'm ugly?

 

Do you ask yourself these same questions when you're talking to someone of the same sex? Why not? What's the difference? We're all people, right?

 

The reason is fear/anxiety, which are very closely related to each other. When you feel anxiety and fear, being VERY hard to hide, other people will notice. And, subconsciously, you KNOW they notice and this adds to your anxiety (this is where vibe comes in). It's a downward spiral from there until you find yourself reduced to a sputtering idiot.

 

Obviously, I'm stating an extreme example and I'm not saying everyone here is like this. But I bet that all of you can relate to this scenario. I know I can.

 

I think you have to find the root of this anxiety and understand that it's not your lack of opposite sex attraction causing your unhappiness and unease, but the other way around.

[KungFuJoe]

You aren't suppose to become friends with them in the hopes of dating them, you become friends with them because you like them as a person. That seems to be the real problem for some guys, they can't be around a pretty woman without falling for them.

 

Yes. THIS is a healthy way of looking at people and relationships.

[MrCastle]

lol, if all it takes is a pretty face and a non bitchy personality to get them all worked up they are going to have problems for a long time.....

 

Never said anything about a pretty face. I'm saying, if a single, straight man sees a woman he's attracted to (looks, personality, etc), his initial thought isn't "oh boy I can't wait to be her friend!" -- it's just not. It's just science that he's going to want to be romantic with her, so let's stop painting them as these horny losers who only think with their penis and don't respect women as people. They are just doing what biology dictates they do.

[pbjbear]

I have been posting here for a long time that men see women as a means to an end...sex. this isnt anything new

 

I do enjoy reading replies of men saying "oh no, i see women as human beings first" and then saying they did this or that...which treats them as a sexual object first. it amuses me how men convince themselves through rationalization they dont do this

 

Mr Castle is a perfect example. He states over and over he doesnt see women that way, but if you look at how he treats women, thats exactly what he does

[MrCastle]

No...I definitely don't believe you should be friends first...and I don't believe you shouldn't. It's irrelevant and not the point I'm trying to make.

 

I'm saying that you need to be able to see the opposite sex as "people". Not as a means to an end. If you just think of this world and all the people on it...as just that...a bunch of people. Among this gigantic pool of people, you will "pull" certain ones and establish relationships. Some will be friends, some will be lovers, some will be enemies (hopefully not), etc.

 

I think certain people look at the other sex like something out of "mystery". Look at all the posts on LS regarding "All women do this" or "All men do that". Never a post about "People do this". All of these "complaining" threads have an underlying tone of FEAR. What do people fear? The unknown. But this fear is caused by your PERCEPTION of the opposite sex. But, when it comes down it, we are all just a bunch of PEOPLE...with our own characteristics, our own personalities...our own likes...dislikes, etc.

 

How many people here feel more "nervous" talking to a member of the opposite sex? If you had a choice...2 hours in a room full of 20 people of the same sex...or opposite sex? What would you choose. And before you guys (and girls) all jump in and say "of course the opposite sex...SCORE!!!"...really give it a good DEEP thought.

 

Really consider if you would not just freeze in an ultimate anxiety attack or if you really would be completely at ease. You don't have to answer this question here in this thread, but answer it in your own head.

 

Fear is the hardest emotion to hide. You can feign happiness...you can feign anger and even sadness. But fear? Can't hide it...can't fake it. When you're standing next to that girl (or guy) and you find yourself stressing over:

 

- What if I have nothing to say?

- Where do I put my hands?

- What if she thinks I sound like an idiot?

- What if she thinks I'm ugly?

 

Do you ask yourself these same questions when you're talking to someone of the same sex? Why not? What's the difference? We're all people, right?

 

The reason is fear/anxiety, which are very closely related to each other. When you feel anxiety and fear, being VERY hard to hide, other people will notice. And, subconsciously, you KNOW they notice and this adds to your anxiety (this is where vibe comes in). It's a downward spiral from there until you find yourself reduced to a sputtering idiot.

 

Obviously, I'm stating an extreme example and I'm not saying everyone here is like this. But I bet that all of you can relate to this scenario. I know I can.

 

I think you have to find the root of this anxiety and understand that it's not your lack of opposite sex attraction causing your unhappiness and unease, but the other way around.

 

So then is what you're saying that becoming familiar with the opposite sex beneficial to your success? Sure. I can get on board with that.

 

But what Ronin said, to me, is pattently false, and some of the stuff you said earlier as well.

 

Yes, it's no secret, being around women will help you understand them. But that doesn't mean you will date the person you are friends with, which is what I thought this thread was. I saw the "friend" term thrown around here and had to make sure we're not promoting the idea that you need to be friends with someone before you can date them.

 

Familiarizing yourself with the opposite sex is always a good thing. Just don't expect or hope that the ones you familiarize yourself with will want to date you.

[KungFuJoe]

Being successful romantically has no bearing on whether or not you can make friends.

 

YOUR definition of success is NOT the same as all the other guys in here.

 

The people I'm focusing on are ones who are looking for something meaningful...they're looking for someone to love and for someone to love them back. They're not looking for the next "score". They're looking for the next Mr/Ms Right.

 

I mean, this IS LOVEshack, right?