Complicated affair

February 6, 2013

I agree with you 100%.
Off topic, if my wife cheated on me (and who knows if she has) I definitely would not want to know about it. And if my gf has a companion, I don`t want to know about it eaither.

You would be one of the rarest betrayed spouses ever to not desire that information.

Usually the people that say that are the people who are cheating.

it's part of the mental game .

February 7, 2013

Realist, I thought your wife knew you were having an A, could have sworn you saying in a past thread that she knew, in which case, it isn't so much an A as she knowing and choosing to live with you despite it. If I have that wrong I apolgise.

Given that posters come from all legs of the A triangle, there are bound to be differing views or advice given. All BS will either be recovering from, in the throes of, or reconciled from an A, so their views will naturally be based upon their experiences of, how being betrayed feels. Their views will naturally be polar opposites of a WS having an A and keeping it hidden, after all, they have experienced the hurt that goes with that. Views from AP's in an A, especially those treated badly by the WS are generally different from those in an A. I think that while that is stating the obvious it should also be borne in mind where a person is 'coming from' in their experience of A's.

Brian, I truly hope that things will move along pretty quickly and that you have a clear idea now of what your actions will be, hopefully telling your wife about the A and also letting the OW know just where she stands in all this. I have read many times that AP's don't want to be the default choice - who does? I think she too should have honesty and be told what your intentions are, irrespective of what your wife decides when she finds out, at the very least an assurance that you will support your daughter. I know you have done so, but I would imagine she will feel very vulnerable if she knows you are telling your wife.

I said before, but you might be surprised by your wife's reaction. Had my H fathered a child with the OW, I would be peed off, but, I would also welcome her into our family, with her mother's support, after a little water had settled under the bridge. Not to replace her Mother, no one can or should, but it has been done. Your daughter should be able to shout out to the world and its dog that you are her Dad and you that she is your daughter, I get that this is your aim, for her sake this has to be soon before she wonders why her Dad isn't acknowledging her. Kids pick up far more than they are given credit for. I would be far more hurt that the A had been hidden for 5 years than you being a father.

Your wife may decide enough is enough, your OW may decide she doesn't want to be a default choice (if in fact it works out that way), either way, morals aside, I think you too have decided that enough is enough too.

As an aside, an open marriage wouldn't work for me, but I would take it any day over being lied to, at least it is honest. No one should get to decide what is best for another to know so they get to do what they want. Informed choice for everyone is, IMHO, a basic human right, to have autonomy over your life and choices without taking that from another isn't so very hard to understand. I hope it all works out, soon.

February 7, 2013

Like always, another great post from an understanding, compassionate person.

You know, many many folks have taken time out of there life to post and give you advice and insight (including myself). Yet you do not reply to them or you pass over them for being blunt. I think several posters have given compassionate thoughts to you. Just because some people couldn't possibly "understand" doesn't mean you should dismiss them.

February 7, 2013

Why wouldn't you want to know? If they did cheat on you, wouldn't that just be a little moral mistake? I mean, everyone would be okay in the end, and maybe your wife or gf would actually love two different people, so why wouldn't you want to know?

Funny girl, jasmine, funny girl.

February 7, 2013

But you started this thread expressing your concerns that the OW had a boyfriend and you explicitly said if she did you wanted to know. Have you changed your mind in the last couple days or are you just saying what you think might give a rationalization for your own behavior?

No, I didn't say that. I said if she did, fine enough, but I'm out.

February 7, 2013

Maybe I'm surrounded by a bunch of optimists, but I have witnessed some pretty outrageous situations, or seemed so at the time, and everyone got over it, and it worked out in the end.

I think they come to the realization that none of these acts were done with malice. It may take some time for everything to work out, but I can't think of a one that ended with such disdain I see here. Only here have I seen such a regular inability to forgive and move on. I have wondered of this might be cultural differences between posters because there seems to be quite a wide representation from across the globe.

I think the cloak of anonymity can be very freeing. I do not wallow in my betrayed status for the world to see. Even professionally I held it together. My assistant was a huge aid to my right after DDay. She is a close friend and the only person I confided in outside of immediate family. It isn't exactly something I am proud of. I'm devastated.

I hate hearing the phrase "get over" when it comes to anyone in the affair dynamic. I will not get over it. Neither will OP's wife. She will survive it. This will shape her life in a way that may change who she was on the path to being.

This type of betrayal is a gunshot wound to the gut. Not a splinter that is discarded with minimal damage. I don't want to speak for anyone else in an A but this is just a matter of survival. I could choose to get lost in my pain or I can survive the near fatal wound to my life as I know it. I speculate that OP's BS may hurt in a similar fashion.

February 7, 2013

You would be one of the rarest betrayed spouses ever to not desire that information.

Usually the people that say that are the people who are cheating.

it's part of the mental game .

Out of sight, out of mind.

February 7, 2013

You know, many many folks have taken time out of there life to post and give you advice and insight (including myself). Yet you do not reply to them or you pass over them for being blunt. I think several posters have given compassionate thoughts to you. Just because some people couldn't possibly "understand" doesn't mean you should dismiss them.

I appreciate all posts. I just can't respond to every one of them.

February 7, 2013

Out of sight, out of mind.

I thought the same at one point. I even asked my husband to end what I knew was going on as I didn't think I could handle confirmation that he was so selfish. In the end I'm so grateful I found out the truth about who I shared my life with. I can now make informed decisions and *gasp* move on! I would hope you would want to know the truth about your own life.

It's strange to me when WS think they can make decisions for their mates. Really? You get to decide how and when someone dedicated to you can become fully aware.

February 7, 2013

OP,

I admit that I find your opening post to be very ironic. You say that you want to know if your other woman has another man in her life so you can decide what to do, yet you will not give your wife the same opportunity that you want for yourself.

I don't think you're a "bad' guy, but you do sound like you are trying to rationalize your actions towards your wife. To me, this would indicate that you know they are wrong ( otherwise you wouldn't care enough to rationalize)...

I don't understand why the paternity test results have any bearing in you telling your wife. If they happen to come back and show that you aren't the father, does that mean that you won't tell your wife what has been going on?
I know that may sound like an easy way out that will minimize her hurt, but, in the long run, it's the lies and deception that hurt the most. If she finds out any other way than from you, this will play out to be so much worse than if you just steel yourself and try being honest with her.

if you don't mind me asking, why did the affair start in the first place?

Why did the affair start in the first place? Well, first there was an attraction then 4 months of flirting and then a few kisses and 1 month later we were sexually involved. I fanatically used condoms for about 2 months and then on and off. To tell you the truth, and this is a little embarrassing, the first time we got naked I chickened out due to overwhelming guilt and we passed. The rest is history.

If the paternity test is negative, I don't tell my wife and I drop my gf. No way my wife finds out because I will deny everything unless somehow some photos pop up somewhere. I see no benefit in hurting my wife unnecessarily.

February 7, 2013

you should stay out of that little girl's life until the results are through and you've made your decision.

sitting on the fence may suit you, but is in no way beneficial to her...

i'm sorry if i come across bluntly, but my belief is that once children are involved their wellbeing comes first and then everybody else's.

February 7, 2013

Funny girl, jasmine, funny girl.

I wasn't trying to be funny.

Why wouldn't you want to know? At the start of this thread, it sounded like you wanted to know whether your OW was seeing someone else. It seemed like it would bother you if she were seeing someone else.

If you don't want to know because it would hurt you, how can you ask for sympathy and compassion ("everyone makes mistakes, this was a moral mistake, it's not 100% bad, sometimes you just love two people," yadda yadda) that you would be unwilling to extend to your wife or gf if they cheated?

February 7, 2013

I wasn't trying to be funny.

Why wouldn't you want to know? At the start of this thread, it sounded like you wanted to know whether your OW was seeing someone else. It seemed like it would bother you if she were seeing someone else.

If you don't want to know because it would hurt you, how can you ask for sympathy and compassion ("everyone makes mistakes, this was a moral mistake, it's not 100% bad, sometimes you just love two people," yadda yadda) that you would be unwilling to extend to your wife or gf if they cheated?

What I don't know, can't hurt me.

February 7, 2013

What I don't know, can't hurt me.

Until you contract an STD..or stumble upon the information accidentally and realize the person you love has been dishonest and unfaithful to you..or she falls in love with her affair partner and leaves you for him (as you're considering doing). Then it can and will hurt you.

February 7, 2013

I agree with you 100%.
And if my gf has a companion, I don`t want to know about it eaither.

And yet the entire premise of your initial post was that you were upset that your girlfriend might have another man that she is meeting on the side. You asked her about it and wanted her to tell you. You considered driving up the mountain to see for yourself. You in fact said: " I want to give her an ultimatum that if she wants a boyfriend then fine enough. Just let me know and I'll split with her." So, for whatever reason, you DO want to know about it.

Several comments:

1) I've read this entire thread (which was quite the endeavor) and speaking as objectively as possible - your posts do not come across as someone who is honestly, truly regretful and remorseful and who is trying to make amends. In fact, given your initial posts and how this all evolved, I believe that if your girlfriend would not be giving you this cold shoulder, you would still be going along with the status quo and would not have posted at all.

Your discussion of what you should do next seems very orchestrated. In your defense, I don't believe you even realize this, but you speak of the wife and gf as if they are pawns on a chessboard that you control. You don't seem to comprehend that what YOU want to ultimately happen is not the issue here.

You state: "So, I realize most posters are saying let each woman decide for themselves but that strategy needs prerequisites in order for them to decide". What 'prerequisites'? Meaning, you are going to provide them with options and guidelines around which they should form their decisions?

Yet, I believe that in this process of your forming your "plan", what you are doing is developing Plan A and Plan B for yourself. Meaning, if Wife decides to stay with you, then you will dump Girlfriend. But if Wife kicks you to the curb, you will then attempt to marry Girlfriend and live happily ever after. This is not how to respect the women you propose to love.

2) To go along with (1) above, you seem to want to accuse posters here of being unsympathetic, unless they say what you want to hear. Specifically, there is only one poster here who you have commented to be "compassionate and sympathetic" and that person is someone who has patted you on the back and told you that "even good people make mistakes" and agrees with you that lying to your wife is an acceptable method to avoid causing her pain.

3) You stated: "I personally believe that an open marriage is much worse than an affair. At least in an afair, there is love involved. In an open marriage, each party knows the other is emotionally and sexually invoved with at least one other person."

With this statement, to me, your true character came out. Read the last sentence again: "... each party knows the other is emotionally and sexually involved with at least one other person". You yourself stated that people are not "meant" to be monogamous. So then, how do you justify that two people in a marriage who are acknowledging exactly what you said, yet are having enough respect for each other not to lie about it, is not "acceptable", yet your lying to your wife and keeping her in the dark IS acceptable?

Your statement about "love" here is not congruent with all you have said before. If, as you suggested, people are not meant to be monogamous - are you then suggesting that people who are not monogamous can't be in love? Because that's what you stated above in your post to whoinlove, yet you seem to think love is possible in an affair. So applying the logic you have proposed, it seem that accepting a non-monogamous relationship, facing it, and agreeing to be respectful and honest with each other while engaging in it is what you abhor - but that lying about it is acceptable.

For what it's worth, your statements about "loving" your wife do not hold water. I believe that you think you love her, but love is not a feeling. It's an action, and respecting another person is what characterizes love. Not lying to them in an effort to manipulate a situation to go the way YOU want it to go and allow you to do exactly what you want while keeping your spouse in a state of not knowing what kind of marriage she is in.

If you think monogamy is natural and acceptable, then there are options. Either get in an open marriage, get divorced, or don't get married in the first place. Lying to someone you propose to love and respect is not an acceptable way to handle it, and stating that "monogamy is natural" is not an excuse for the behavior.

Furthermore, stating that your affair is a "mistake" is another clue as to how you have no concept of what you have done, nor any remorse. A mistake is something you do once - not over, and over, and over, to the tune of five years.

The responses you are getting here would be much different if you came across as being honestly remorseful or realizing the impact of your actions, but they simply do not.

4) The thought of your driving past your daughter's house, waving to her, and not stopping - just makes me ill. The thought of you telling her that you are her dad, yet telling her she can't say that in public, makes me more ill. I cannot imagine doing that to ANY child, let alone my own daughter. You are manipulating this child so that you can keep the status quo.

Furthermore, I believe that you STILL would be doing so, if this situation with your girlfriend giving you the cold shoulder had not come up. It is this situation - not your daughter - which has prompted you into action. These were your own words, even.

You justify this by saying that your daughter is "happy". No - your daughter is three years old and living in a state of oblivion, like any three-year-old. She does not "love" you except as a figure in her life now. But when she is older, if this keeps on, she will require you to justify yourself in order for her to give you love and respect. In her shoes, as a teenager or even earlier than that, had my father put me into this situation, he would not have had my love, respect, or communication in any form. Just something to keep in mind.

I do believe you may go ahead with this and change the situation with your daughter. However I think you are doing it not for her sake, but because your hand was forced because your girlfriend wasn't behaving the way you wanted her to. I do not find true remorse in your posts and it still seems evident that your first priority is really you.

I suspect that if Girlfriend goes back to being the loving, communicating person she was before, you may not go through with this at all.

I am not saying any of this out of a desire to hurt or criticize you, or from projected anger on my part. I am saying it in hopes that you will wake up and see some of the things that have been posted to you, because it is really quite clear from your posts that you don't see the picture here.

And, I am saying this from the perspective of a former OW.

I do wish you good luck.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Tenacity

February 7, 2013

No, I didn't say that. I said if she did, fine enough, but I'm out.

Here's what you said

No jwi71, I don't want to give her an ultimatum to get rid of a boyfriend. I want to give her an ultimatum that if she wants a boyfriend then fine enough. Just let me know and I'll split with her. But she continually tells me to this day that I'm her one and only love. ????I don't get it. If this is true what she says, then why the distancing???

First, in this post and some others you clearly are trying to figure out if she has a boyfriend. Why do that if you would rather live in ignorance? And why would you want to give her an ultimatun to let you know if you don't want to know?

You say "Just let me know and I'll split." However, now you say you don't want to know. So if you knew you would ask act one way, but you'd rather not know so that you know whether you want to act that way or not ? You'd rather not know if you are exposed to her new sexual partner and all the partners her new sexual partner has had sex with and you don't even bother using condoms some of the time?

I ask, because most people like to be informed and live in reality and most people don't like to be lied to. I'm trying to understand why you prefer to be lied to about such important matters (like if you should be so cavalier about not using condoms, for one). I suspect it is because you are trying to justify your own behavior.

February 7, 2013

On the open M, Brian, I had already noticed from earlier discussions on LS, that the people who felt most morally repulsed by someone else being in an open M were people who were involved in secret A and not so much those who have never been unfaithful or involved in an A. Of course, if they didn't feel repulsed by open M they would have to admit that one other choice they had before starting an A was to talk openly and honestly with their spouse about their desires and wants. To do so would be taking the risk that their spouse might convince them to not have an outside R or maybe even that their M would end. Because their spouse's desires and hopes for their M may not align with theirs. By lying to your spouse, it no longer matters to you what your spouse actually desires, because you have made sure she can not give informed input on that.

Brian, you talk in so many contradictions and convolutions about honesty and knowing reality and allowing others to know reality. I doubt you'll be able to hang on to this convolulted thinking for ever. One day you'll see the logical inconsistency in your attempts to justify your behavior. That will be good. It'll be the start of thinking if you want to continue being the kind of person you have been. Doesn't seem like you are ready for that now though.

February 7, 2013

"If you think monogamy is natural and acceptable, then there are options. Either get in an open marriage, get divorced, or don't get married in the first place. Lying to someone you propose to love and respect is not an acceptable way to handle it, and stating that "monogamy is natural" is not an excuse for the behavior."

In my statement above from my earlier post, I meant non-monogamy, not monogamy.

Time for bed, obviously...

February 7, 2013

If the paternity test is negative, I don't tell my wife and I drop my gf. No way my wife finds out because I will deny everything unless somehow some photos pop up somewhere. I see no benefit in hurting my wife unnecessarily.

Are you afraid of owing what you did? Afraid of your consquences and dealing with your wife and her reaction to the news of your A and possible child that could have been yours (if it isn't yours).. denying and lying is not the way to handle this. The truth has a way of coming out - And you never know, your OW could FREAK OUT if you walk away from her, she could turn on you and tell your wife everything.

Don't deny. Stand up and OWN it.

February 7, 2013

Until you contract an STD..or stumble upon the information accidentally and realize the person you love has been dishonest and unfaithful to you..or she falls in love with her affair partner and leaves you for him (as you're considering doing). Then it can and will hurt you.

I agree, there are some possible terrible downsides to not telling. But if you do tell, there are guaranteed terrible downsides. I also agree that the downsides to not telling would be much worse the longer the lying went on.

February 7, 2013

I was talking to an old friend today and she reminded me of someone we know who found out at her husband's funeral that he had an OW and two children. In the space of a heartbeat all her, their children and family's respect, memories and history of what had been a long and in her mind, faithful and happy marriage went out the window. he had carried on an A and later a relationship with his children for over 10 years. I now hear she is claiming back the house her H had signed over to the OW as she Ihis wife) was an equal partner in their business and he bought it with a business account, even forging her signature to do so. Very, very messy and sad for everyone as he had told the XOW that his wife knew and the reason he couldn't openly acknowledge his children was because she would 'take him to the cleaners'.

I am reminded of your situation Brian and I hope this all gets sorted very soon, no one knows what is around the corner.

February 7, 2013

And yet the entire premise of your initial post was that you were upset that your girlfriend might have another man that she is meeting on the side. You asked her about it and wanted her to tell you. You considered driving up the mountain to see for yourself. You in fact said: " I want to give her an ultimatum that if she wants a boyfriend then fine enough. Just let me know and I'll split with her." So, for whatever reason, you DO want to know about it.

No, I don't want to know. If I wanted to know, it's very easy for me to find out. But then if I find out, our entire relationship would be over. And I wasn't quite ready for that yet. I need to close up a few loose ends first and then the hammer will fall for my gf and myself.

February 7, 2013

Furthermore, stating that your affair is a "mistake" is another clue as to how you have no concept of what you have done, nor any remorse. A mistake is something you do once - not over, and over, and over, to the tune of five years.

I meant that engaging in an affair was a mistake. After the affair was rolling, the initial mistake grew into a monster sized error. It's like when you realize you've made a mistake and then you try to cover it up, that covering up makes the mistake bigger. And then the dreaded snowball effect goes into form. Now my snowball is the size of one of our ex-solar system buddies, Pluto.

February 7, 2013

4) The thought of your driving past your daughter's house, waving to her, and not stopping - just makes me ill. The thought of you telling her that you are her dad, yet telling her she can't say that in public, makes me more ill. I cannot imagine doing that to ANY child, let alone my own daughter. You are manipulating this child so that you can keep the status quo.

I can't stop and go play with her because her grandparents are usually there with her and they don't know about my relationship with my daughter, but they assume. My gf insists on not letting them know yet. (But I assume they know.) I never once told my daughter that she can't call me dad in public (she often does) but I'm not sure what my gf has told her. I agree that it's not fair to my daughter and that is the main reason I am moving forward with plan "Liberation".

Furthermore, I believe that you STILL would be doing so, if this situation with your girlfriend giving you the cold shoulder had not come up. It is this situation - not your daughter - which has prompted you into action. These were your own words, even.

You are probably correct, sadly.

You justify this by saying that your daughter is "happy". No - your daughter is three years old and living in a state of oblivion, like any three-year-old. She does not "love" you except as a figure in her life now. But when she is older, if this keeps on, she will require you to justify yourself in order for her to give you love and respect. In her shoes, as a teenager or even earlier than that, had my father put me into this situation, he would not have had my love, respect, or communication in any form. Just something to keep in mind.

I do believe you may go ahead with this and change the situation with your daughter. However I think you are doing it not for her sake, but because your hand was forced because your girlfriend wasn't behaving the way you wanted her to. I do not find true remorse in your posts and it still seems evident that your first priority is really you.

You may be correct but I have mentioned it many times over the last 2 years to my gf that we should come clean, only for the child. She insisted that she didn't want to at those times because her reputation would be shot.

I suspect that if Girlfriend goes back to being the loving, communicating person she was before, you may not go through with this at all.

That's the most difficult part. She already has 3 weeks of continued lovey-dovey dedication to me but she still to this day is playing difficult with her presence with me and especially with our daughter.

I am not saying any of this out of a desire to hurt or criticize you, or from projected anger on my part. I am saying it in hopes that you will wake up and see some of the things that have been posted to you, because it is really quite clear from your posts that you don't see the picture here.

And, I am saying this from the perspective of a former OW.

I do wish you good luck.

Thanks for your comments. I will take everything you stated as constructive criticism. Today I will be getting together with my gf and my daughter and I am going to push the issue to a new level. She must give 100% attention to our daughter immediately or I will make a move immediately to take control of my daughters' well-being. That meaning, I will inform my wife immediately of my daughter. And then the chips will fall where they may. If she cooperates then I will stick to my original plan, legalization of my daughter first.

February 7, 2013

On the open M, Brian, I had already noticed from earlier discussions on LS, that the people who felt most morally repulsed by someone else being in an open M were people who were involved in secret A and not so much those who have never been unfaithful or involved in an A. Of course, if they didn't feel repulsed by open M they would have to admit that one other choice they had before starting an A was to talk openly and honestly with their spouse about their desires and wants. To do so would be taking the risk that their spouse might convince them to not have an outside R or maybe even that their M would end. Because their spouse's desires and hopes for their M may not align with theirs. By lying to your spouse, it no longer matters to you what your spouse actually desires, because you have made sure she can not give informed input on that.

Brian, you talk in so many contradictions and convolutions about honesty and knowing reality and allowing others to know reality. I doubt you'll be able to hang on to this convolulted thinking for ever. One day you'll see the logical inconsistency in your attempts to justify your behavior. That will be good. It'll be the start of thinking if you want to continue being the kind of person you have been. Doesn't seem like you are ready for that now though.

You are a wise person and I have learned a lot from your comments. I also want to apologize for my comments about open marriage. You opened my eyes and my mind, although it's still not for me.

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