Complicated affair

[Realist3]

I also wonder, and it's a valid thought, so Brian, please think about this... is it possible that you are just the eternal optimist? That you are so convinced that things "won't be that bad" that you really are unable to see what the actual implications could be?

 

Your one post made me really focus on that. You said that it will all be ok, and that it'll hurt but everyone will get over it.

 

In some ways I thought like that before I found LS here.. I never realized the extent of the destruction that CAN be caused. It may have been a naive view of the world, but I come from a very WASPY and stoic background. You just don't show pain to other people, so how would I know?

 

That was my failing. I think if I'd realized BEFORE I was in over my head, I might not have gotten in over my head, but I never took the steps to see.

It's too late for you to not be in it, but I think maybe you should be prepared for the actual fallout and not think that it's going to some how blow over.

 

Maybe I'm surrounded by a bunch of optimists, but I have witnessed some pretty outrageous situations, or seemed so at the time, and everyone got over it, and it worked out in the end.

 

I think they come to the realization that none of these acts were done with malice. It may take some time for everything to work out, but I can't think of a one that ended with such disdain I see here. Only here have I seen such a regular inability to forgive and move on. I have wondered of this might be cultural differences between posters because there seems to be quite a wide representation from across the globe.

[Decorative]

Maybe I'm surrounded by a bunch of optimists, but I have witnessed some pretty outrageous situations, or seemed so at the time, and everyone got over it, and it worked out in the end.

 

I think they come to the realization that none of these acts were done with malice. It may take some time for everything to work out, but I can't think of a one that ended with such disdain I see here. Only here have I seen such a regular inability to forgive and move on. I have wondered of this might be cultural differences between posters because there seems to be quite a wide representation from across the globe.

 

It is malicious to choose to lie to your spouse.

 

It is malicious to expose him or her to diseases that could threaten their health and sometimes life.

 

It is malicious to inflict psychological abuse on your spouse by gaslighting.

 

And in the end? In my situation ? It didn't just magically work out. It has nothing to do with being optimistic ( although I am naturally a very positive person).

 

It has everything to do with the willingness to put the work in and reconcile. And it's not easy. At all. It's not easy to end a marriage, either.

 

But the malicious nature of the affair in the first place is what sets those dominoes in motion.

 

And only a person deep, deep, deep in denial about their personal actions doesn't see that.

[woinlove]

Maybe I'm surrounded by a bunch of optimists, but I have witnessed some pretty outrageous situations, or seemed so at the time, and everyone got over it, and it worked out in the end.

 

I think they come to the realization that none of these acts were done with malice. It may take some time for everything to work out, but I can't think of a one that ended with such disdain I see here. Only here have I seen such a regular inability to forgive and move on. I have wondered of this might be cultural differences between posters because there seems to be quite a wide representation from across the globe.

 

Maybe it is a matter of timescales and also how long they will reveal their feelings in real life compared to here. We often are hearing from BS or OW where the A was discovered or ended in the past year or two. They often still feel the pain. It seems for many BS and OW (and some OM, as well as WS, I recall) 1 or 2 years is still part of the healing process. Maybe they feel more comfortable showing their pain for such an extended time in an anonymous forum. Many tell them they should have already healed, so in real life they may be more hesitant to show the true timeframe. We've had examples of OW where the A only lasted 6 months and they still hurt a year later. I think a lot of complex emotions are involved in secret affairs and the healing can take time. I do think the vast majority of people heal, but it doesn't mean the path getting there isn't truly heartbreaking.

[Realist3]

It is malicious to choose to lie to your spouse.

 

It is malicious to expose him or her to diseases that could threaten their health and sometimes life.

 

It is malicious to inflict psychological abuse on your spouse by gaslighting.

 

And in the end? In my situation ? It didn't just magically work out. It has nothing to do with being optimistic ( although I am naturally a very positive person).

 

It has everything to do with the willingness to put the work in and reconcile. And it's not easy. At all. It's not easy to end a marriage, either.

 

But the malicious nature of the affair in the first place is what sets those dominoes in motion.

 

And only a person deep, deep, deep in denial about their personal actions doesn't see that.

 

No, no, no. Malice is about the desire or intent to hurt someone.

 

This has been discussed before. The very fact that affairs are kept secret shows the absence of malice.

[jwi71]

But my love for all three ladies involved (voluntarily or involuntarily) is not bad or questionable.

 

Of course its questionable - I'd certainly call it bad.

 

So you have an OW who you love and she loves you in return. Unless she is cheating on you then forget about it. Your words not mine. Well...why?

 

Why is it you can love and cheat on your W and yet your OW is not allowed to love and cheat on you?

 

And do you love your daughter SO much she isn't allowed to call you daddy in public? Do tell how that preventing your daughter from expressing her love TO you is showing your love TO her.

 

The word love appears many times in this thread yet methinks the only real love shown is in the mirror. That's what your actions say to me. And if some random internet guy can draw that conclusion...well, when all this and its many layers comes out - yeah..."hell on Earth" will be what you wish for.

 

smh

[sweetjasmine]

According to all psychiatrists, men naturally want and need more than one sexual partner.

 

Not true. You're rationalizing.

 

Needing to hide out and live a double life in secrecy just because their natural behaviors are not accepted socially.

 

Sorry, I don't know of anyone who has done the horrible things you have. If it were natural, wouldn't everyone have a secret lovechild with their affair partner of 5 years?

 

Don't get me wrong, I am as much against cheating as anyone else, but I'm saying that having more than one lover is perfectly natural and normal. The cheating, deceiving and lying part is what is not natural and normal. But those actions are by-products of natural and normal behavior. Any mutually loving relationship is always a good thing. But having to do so in secrecy like you're suffering from leprosy is not fair.

 

Okay, having to hide your second relationship isn't fair. So why don't you just tell everyone and be open about it? You say any mutually loving relationship is always a good thing, so won't your situation be perfect if you just stop hiding everything? Both of your relationships must be a good thing, right? So why can't they exist out in the open together?

 

So, the whole topic of affairs is an interesting topic if you delve into it without concentrating on the cheating, deceiving and lying part.

 

Kind of how calculus is an interesting topic if you delve into it without concentrating on the limits, derivatives, and integrals part.

 

You're pretty good at lying to yourself and rationalizing your behavior. I can see how you've managed to pull the wool over people's eyes for so long.

[Realist3]

honestly...if I was your spouse ( or was telling you about a hurtful situation) I wouldn't tell you about the pain I was feeling, as I get the distinct impression that you wouldn't care or that you'd try to blame me for feeling that way.

 

you probably see a lot of the pain on here because it's an anonymous web forum. I don;t think that many of the people who post on here and say they were devastated by an affair and still feel bad about it are going around in their daily lives saying this, as it's a private feeling that is very difficult to share.

 

n my experience, I've never, ever heard someone ( no matter which side they were on) say that an affair didn't cause hurt, anger, pain etc. that can be very long lasting)

 

I won't discount any of that. Because this place allows people to wear that hurt/anger on their sleeve it is obvious. But you also have to realize that on here they keep re-living that hurt/anger, sometimes for years. I'm not sure how that is a positive. People tend to let painful experiences go so they can live happier lives.

 

In the end people will be hurt in this situation, but eventually they will be okay. They may not forget about it, but it won't rule their lives like it seems some people here allow it to do.

[Realist3]

oh for goodness sake, what difference does that make...it doesn't make it hurt any less...the only person it matters to is the person who cheated ( so they don't have to feel so bad about it)

 

 

It should make a huge amount of difference to any rational thinking person.

 

If I'm chopping down a tree and swing and miss and hit you in the leg it hurts. If I come after you with an axe and hit you in the leg it hurts just the same. But the reaction of the person hurt greatly depends on intent. Most people realize that.

[Realist3]

I don't disagree with you. I think that most people do in fact, get over just about everything with enough time and distance and perspective. Humans are far more resilient than we realize.

 

I just don't want him thinking it's going to be "ok" if that makes sense? I think thinking that is only setting himself up to make it harder on him as well.

 

He's getting a lot of tough lstatements on here, some more helpful than others, but I hope he is getting something out of it. There's a lot of things to think about. And who knows, it could all work out just as he is hoping, as I've always said, each of us knows our OWN situations better than anyone else.

 

The way I took his comments is that despite this initial pain, all parties will be fine at some point. The world is not going to end.

[Decorative]

No, no, no. Malice is about the desire or intent to hurt someone.

 

This has been discussed before. The very fact that affairs are kept secret shows the absence of malice.

 

It has been discussed before. We still don't agree.

 

You know it causes harm. That's why you kept the secret.

 

Period. You cannot spin it any other way.

 

( well, you can, but it won't be accepted by anyone thinking clearly or not currently in an affair)

[woinlove]

No, no, no. Malice is about the desire or intent to hurt someone.

 

This has been discussed before. The very fact that affairs are kept secret shows the absence of malice.

 

No. My H and I are honest with each other about any other romantic interests. That shows an absence of malice, that we treat each other with respect, love and honesty.

 

Affairs are kept secret so that one can have a spouse kept in the dark, believing she/he is living in an exclusive M, while the reality is something different.

 

You and I have very different opinions about what it means to choose to treat someone with respect, loyalty and absence of malice.

[Realist3]

It has been discussed before. We still don't agree.

 

You know it causes harm. That's why you kept the secret.

 

Period. You cannot spin it any other way.

 

( well, you can, but it won't be accepted by anyone thinking clearly or not currently in an affair)

 

It is kept secret to keep from causing harm.

 

There are a lot of things we do on a regular basis that could possibly cause harm, yet we do them anyway.

 

It is all based upon intent to harm another.

 

What I'm saying is that people that are able to get over hurt take into account intent.

[woinlove]

The way I took his comments is that despite this initial pain, all parties will be fine at some point. The world is not going to end.

 

I agree the world is not going to end. I also agree that many people will be fine at some point. Of course, some won't. That is true of most kinds of abuse or ill-treatment.

 

Still, better to try to minimize the pain one inflicts on others rather than try to minimize your perception of other's pain.

Edited February 6, 2013 by woinlove

[woinlove]

It is kept secret to keep from causing harm.

 

There are a lot of things we do on a regular basis that could possibly cause harm, yet we do them anyway.

 

It is all based upon intent to harm another.

 

What I'm saying is that people that are able to get over hurt take into account intent.

 

When a WS lies to a trusting spouse about the fundamental nature of their marriage in order to carry on a secret A undetected, there is ill intent. Spinning it doesn't change that fact.

 

Perhaps you like people to deceive you and you don't like to live in reality. Otherwise, I can't see why you see this behavior for anything other than what it is,selfish, disrespectful and disloyal and that hurts. There are alternatives that show respect and loyalty, so one always has a choice. A WS choice is one of pain for others so they can enjoy what they want.

Edited February 6, 2013 by woinlove

[jwi71]

The world is not going to end.

 

This is not necessarily true - you are assuming such - albeit rarely.

 

Point is...we DON'T know how people will react. Usually its simply messy and ugly and we HOPE they recover (some never do). Sometimes people end up dead. We cannot predict what the BS will do - because on D-day their world DOES end.

 

Heck..the OP doesn't even know how HE will react once all is out and in the open.

[Decorative]

It is kept secret to keep from causing harm.

 

There are a lot of things we do on a regular basis that could possibly cause harm, yet we do them anyway.

 

It is all based upon intent to harm another.

 

What I'm saying is that people that are able to get over hurt take into account intent.

 

As a person in a recovered marriage- I did take intent into account.

 

So did my spouse.

 

He caused harm. He owns that. He's never tried to sell me any of this " no intent to harm" business. Your quotes section above is very disordered thinking.

[Survivor12]

The world may not end, per se, but when a spouse is betrayed, they are being deprived of their free will to make choices based on truth--in essence, "wasting" a period of their life. Just because they may continue to "survive" does not give them back the time, opportunities, peace of mind, choices and happiness that they have been denied--nor the future they may have had.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Survivor12

[Realist3]

As a person in a recovered marriage- I did take intent into account.

 

So did my spouse.

 

He caused harm. He owns that. He's never tried to sell me any of this " no intent to harm" business. Your quotes section above is very disordered thinking.

 

Why would he have to sell you on anything? You should be able to pick it up on your own.

 

He never had the thought, "I'm just going to go hurt the crap out of my wife."

[Realist3]

When a WS lies to a trusting spouse about the fundamental nature of their marriage in order to carry on a secret A undetected, there is ill intent. Spinning it doesn't change that fact.

 

Perhaps you like people to deceive you and you don't like to live in reality. Otherwise, I can't see why you see this behavior for anything other than what it is,selfish, disrespectful and disloyal and that hurts. There are alternatives that show respect and loyalty, so one always has a choice. A WS choice is one of pain for others so they can enjoy what they want.

 

Intent of what? Intent of deception or intent of harm. Very big difference.

 

Intent to conceal or deceive is not an attempt to harm, just the opposite; that is why it is not malice.

 

Pain can happen from deception, but that does not make it malice.

[Realist3]

Whether there was malice or not wouldn't affect the "acute" pain, nor the chronic pain and scar that I would have.

 

An affair is different. The person cheating knows that the affair will hurt their spouse ( all this talk of "hiding" non withstanding...affairs hurt even if the person being cheated on doesn't know that's the cause) yet they don't care. They are so wrapped up in getting their "fix" that they don't care who gets hurt ( if they cared, they wouldn't take the risk). It would be like the peosn cutting down the tree turning around and intentially hitting me with an axe vs. the stranger hitting me with one for no reason.

 

the person I cared about doing it would be more hurtful as they are supposed to care and not hurt me. the stranger would also be hurtful, but it would also be confusing as I had done nothing to them, they didn't know me...why would they choose to hurt me like that?

 

If they didn't care about it hurting you they would not attempt keep it secret. Now you could agrue that there is more than one motive in keeping it secret. That I won't argue. But to suggest there is malice simply doesn't wash.

 

Yes, someone you know would definitely hurt more than a stranger.

 

And I also undertsand that having an affair is a decision that one knows may end up hurting their spouse. But hurting the spouse is not the intent.

[woinlove]

If they didn't care about it hurting you they would not attempt keep it secret.

 

Huh?? What are you talking about? Do you even know how honest and open R work? My H and I have always been open and honest about our desires, our plans, and our actions with respect to romantic interests. We do this because we love and respect each other and we have an agreement to be open and honest about such matters. You are so far off base in saying that people who do not lie and betray their partners don't care about hurting them. Your post seems off in la-la land. Talk to some people who have open and honest R, because you don't seem to understand how they work.

[woinlove]

 

And I also undertsand that having an affair is a decision that one knows may end up hurting their spouse. But hurting the spouse is not the intent.

 

You are splitting hairs in trying to distinguish between simply not caring enough if you hurt your spouse and intent to hurt.

 

A person who plans to kill a guard to rob a bank is motivated by stealing the money from the bank, but they certainly didn't care enough about the guard to not kill him. Would you argue that there wasn't any intent to kill, it was simply a byproduct of wanting to rob the bank? What difference does that make to the guard, the law, or anyone?

 

Sheesh, the mental contortions people who cheat need to go through to make themselves feel better. You know, life doesn't have to be this difficult. You don't have to cheat. If you do, just accept that you are choosing to treat others with dishonesty, disrespect and disloyalty, and removing the possibility of informed choice from them, and that hurts them. Own it already.

 

All this "I didn't mean it" and "It just happened" type talk doesn't change anything. You did it. You chose it. You could have chosen differently. Accept it.

Edited February 6, 2013 by woinlove

[Realist3]

You are splitting hairs in trying to distinguish between simply not caring enough if you hurt your spouse and intent to hurt.

 

A person who plans to kill a guard to rob a bank is motivated by stealing the money from the bank, but they certainly didn't care enough about the guard to not kill him. Would you argue that there wasn't any intent to kill, it was simply a byproduct of wanting to rob the bank? What difference does that make to the guard, the law, or anyone?

 

Sheesh, the mental contortions people who cheat need to go through to make themselves feel better. You know, life doesn't have to be this difficult. You don't have to cheat. If you do, just accept that you are choosing to treat others with dishonesty, disrespect and disloyalty, and removing the possibility of informed choice from them, and that hurts them. Own it already.

 

That is why I used the word malice. There is no malice in what I do.

 

The bank robbery analogy is a blatant attempt at malice, whether the guard gets killed or not. It is an overt attempt to harm someone else, i.e. by taking their money. That analogy doesn't work in this scenario, but I do give you an A for effort.

[Realist3]

Huh?? What are you talking about? Do you even know how honest and open R work? My H and I have always been open and honest about our desires, our plans, and our actions with respect to romantic interests. We do this because we love and respect each other and we have an agreement to be open and honest about such matters. You are so far off base in saying that people who do not lie and betray their partners don't care about hurting them. Your post seems off in la-la land. Talk to some people who have open and honest R, because you don't seem to understand how they work.

 

 

You are confusing two different things. I'm not talking about the way a healthy relationship should work. I'm talking about whether there is malice in the act of cheating.

 

Dare I say, we seem to be getting a bit off topic here.

[woinlove]

That is why I used the word malice. There is no malice in what I do.

 

The bank robbery analogy is a blatant attempt at malice, whether the guard gets killed or not. It is an overt attempt to harm someone else, i.e. by taking their money. That analogy doesn't work in this scenario, but I do give you an A for effort.

 

Cheating is an overt attempt to trick your spouse to stay married to you by trying to make them believe a false reality. If the truth comes out, they may or may not stay married to you, they may make different choices, they may choose not to have children, not to move, not to pass up a career move, whatever. There is malice in treating someone that way.