Jefezen Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 I've been going out sporadically with a girl I met at a Halloween party in late October. She approached me at the party. She asked me to dance. She offered me her number. She posed for pictures with me. She complimented my looks and demeanor. She purchased me two drinks. She encouraged me to call her and go to the movies some time, and to text her if I'm bored. At the end of the party, she offered me a ride home, which I did not accept because I had just met her and I lived across the street anyway. Three days later, she texted me to ask how I was doing. We had a half hour text conversation. No plans were made to get together. Four days after that, she initiated another text conversation and she asked me out to a group function at a restaurant. I told her I couldn't make it because I was about to go on a trip out of state (the truth), but that I would like to see her beforehand, if she were available. We made plans to go to the movies. We went to the movies on a weeknight, so it was a relatively brief outing. We saw the movie, grabbed a coffee afterwards, chatted (mostly her talking somewhat nervously, as she barely looked into my eyes) and then went our separate ways after a hug. I sent my usual text message to make sure she got home okay, and she apologized for dominating the conversation, saying that next time she'll let me talk more. I said goodnight to her in her native language, which she responded to favorably. This is where the situation suddenly shifted from her chasing me to me chasing her. I was away for about two weeks. Five days into my trip, I initiated my first text conversation with her. I asked how she was doing and we chatted for maybe about an hour. She responded immediately and seemed to be in high spirits (as best I could tell). But after that night she went almost completely quiet on me. I didn't hear from her whatosever, at all, for the next two weeks. Finally, I initiated another text conversation. She replied quickly, however didn't seem quite as friendly or in the mood to chat. The conversation lasted maybe three exchanges. Two more weeks went by without any contact from her whatsoever, aside from her posting a couple "likes" on my Facebook page. I texted her again, saying something like, "Hi, I haven't heard from you in awhile, how are you doing?" It took her an hour and a half to reply. I told her about a masquerade party that was coming up and asked if she'd like to accompany me to it. She replied, "Sure, let's go to it," and then she started planning our costumes. At the masquerade party, we spent a lot of time dancing and talking. When the subject of religion arose, she said she was never able to be a pious girl because she "love sex and alcohol too much." She seemed to be in a really good mood until suddenly she received a text message at around 11:30pm and abruptly told me, "It's late, I'm tired, I should go." I walked her to her car. She suggested that I meet up with her for lunch some time. Before parting she said, "You can kiss me, you know," but she gave me her cheek as she said it, so I only planted a friendly peck where she directed one. Somewhat annoyed, I sent out my customary post-outing text with a slight twist, saying, "I wanted to make sure you got to wherever you're going safely, I hope everything is alright." She didn't answer until the next morning, where she defensively said, "I was feeling sick, I went straight home, straight to bed. I didn't want to overwork my body. Thanks for being a gentleman." Another week passed, no contact from her whatsoever. I asked if she wanted to celebrate New Years Eve with me. It took her a full day to respond, and when she did, she said, "I'm not sure if my cousin has plans, let me get back to you." Two more days went by and I didn't hear anything from her. When she finally responded, she asked me, "Sure, let's do something. We shouldn't be alone on New Years. Pick a party." I purchased a couple of tickets to an expensive black tie hotel soiree, I picked her up at her place, everything seemed to be going well, we chatted and danced for hours, she complimented how I looked, she seemed to be in high spirits. Just before midnight, though, she initiated a kiss on my cheek before I got a chance to go for her lips. Sensing my opportunity was over, I didn't try for anything else. At about 1am, she looked at her phone (another text message perhaps?) and abruptly announced that she was ready to call it a night. She claimed her feet were bothering her, so I told her to sit down and I'd go fetch the car myself. Much to my chagrin, I couldn't remember where I parked, and it took about 20 minutes for me to find it. When I finally got back to her, she said, "I thought you had left me and gone home!" I told her, "I would never do that to you!" She said, "You'd be surprised. It's happened to me before." When we got back to her place, she stayed sitting in the car with me for about an hour talking. She asked me about my previous relationships and if I've ever tried online dating. She also talked a bit about her previous relationships, explaining that she's terrible at them and that they never last. The conversation wasn't exactly conducive for attempting a goodnight kiss, and I didn't try for one. Eventually she kissed my cheek and got out of the car. Three days later, I sent her a text message asking if she'd like to "try something a little different this weekend." My intent was to take her ice skating, something she had claimed to be interested in during an earlier conversation. My thinking was that this would be the perfect opportunity to get a little more touchy-feely. It took her four hours to reply. When she finally did, she said, "I'm so busy this weekend, but I am curious, what did you have in mind?" I mentioned the ice skating idea. She reiterated how busy she is, made no attempt at setting an alternative date, wished me a good weekend, and that was the end of the conversation. Two more weeks went by with no contact and I texted her again, saying I'd like to see her, and asking if she'd be available "any evening this week for drinks and/or dinner, a movie perhaps?" She replied, "Sure, how does Wednesday work for you?" I offered to pick her up at her place, but she said it would be easier on us both if we met at the restaurant instead because it was a weeknight. She texted me a half hour prior to the reservation time saying she'd arrived early and would be at the bar. I thought the dinner went well. She seemed mirthful, she laughed a lot, we conversed without any awkward pauses. I tried to get her to commit to my ice skating idea again, but she claimed to be scared because of a friend's accident while skating, and also too busy. "Maybe in March after my test is over," she said. She attempted to correct my perception of her as a party animal, saying that she really doesn't go clubbing every weekend, that she's perfectly content staying home watching movies, cooking, or reading a book, and that right now she's studying a lot for an exam she has to take in March related to her job. She told me about her various "very good" male friends, and how she approached an "interesting guy" at Starbucks and made small talk with him. She mentioned an ex-boyfriend throwing a birthday party for her in the past and "how in love" (present tense) she is with him. I asked if she harbors any hope of reconciliation. She replied, "Some day I'll tell you that story." These anecdotes didn't exactly instill much confidence. As the restaurant cleared out, I walked her to her car, and then she drove me to where I had parked mine. She jokingly brought up New Years and how she had thought I abandoned her. She admitted to being "a little mad" at me that night for making her wait. When we got to my car, she turned her cheek toward me for the goodnight kiss, but I craned my head around and gave her a peck on the lips instead, dramatically extending out my arms, saying "If I may" as I closed in and did it. She didn't pull back, nor did she try for anything further. She gave a bemused half-smile. She was blocking traffic, so I just said goodnight at that point and got out of the car, not really cognizant of her full reaction. Two days later she finally initiated a conversation for the first time in months, but only to say that she was at a private party and saw a mutual acquaintance we had talked about at dinner. "How weird is that?" she asked. "I told her you're my friend," she added. I replied that this mutual acquaintance and I are both on the guest list for a party next Saturday, and I asked if she'd be interested in attending. She sidestepped the question, saying, "Yeah our friend tells me she's been seeing you at all the parties." (I don't think that's true because I can only recall seeing this other girl once, but that's probably beside the point). This brings me to the present. I'm increasingly interested in this woman, even though I get the distinct impression that she's distancing herself from me, or at the very least indifferent toward my efforts. She was definitely into me at the beginning, no doubt about it, and I'm not sure what happened between then and now. I suspect that there may be another guy, if not many other guys. Despite being 32 years old, she goes out clubbing a lot, or at least did up until recently. Every other day she's adding tons of guys to her Facebook, including some much younger ones still in college. For someone who claims to be so busy and studying all the time, she seems to find ample opportunity to go on various outings with a broad assortment of people, both male and female. My present impression is that I'm just another guy out of the scores of others in her orbit, and not someone for whom she feels any special connection. The reason I'm not willing to give up is twofold: first, she definitely showed interest early on when we met. Second, I'm her opposite when it comes to social experience. I am not a guy who has dated a lot. I never go clubbling. I never danced until I met her (high school prom notwithstanding). I've never even been in a serious relationship. Admittedly, I don't really know what I'm doing, and I don't have much, if any, game. Women do seem to find me attractive, and I often have no difficulty generating an initial buzz, securing telephone numbers, or getting first dates, but then I get friendzoned or forgotten. It's not as though I have a lot of options, so whenever one does present itself, I tend to pursue it until I get a flat rejection. In this case, the girl in question claims to want five kids and a stable relationship. If that's true, she needs to be settling down fast, given her age. I'm 30, and also looking to settle down. I don't have a desire to play the field. This woman is attractive, personable, educated, well-situated professionally, and we do share many interests and philosophical viewpoints. But the competition for her is probably massive, and I don't know how to elevate what we have (if it's much of anything) into a relationship. That's the reason I forced myself to at least give her a peck on the lips. I had to somehow convey a romantic interest. And while I know that a mere peck is not much of anything, keep in mind I am extremely inexperienced with women. I am very tentative when it comes to anything intimate. All of my sexual experiences have come as a result of being with very aggressive older women who took steps 1-10. I'm not accustomed to the role of pursuit. My inexperience also leads to desperation, and while I do think I am good at concealing this desperation when with a woman, it puts me in a bad mental frame where I over-analyze every little detail, and become easily obsessed and depressed. Obviously this girl isn't dating every single guy she adds on her Facebook, and I assume I should feel somewhat encouraged that a girl of her apparent popularity was available for me at all on a night like New Years Eve. But why does she hardly ever contact me anymore? Why must I always be the one reaching out to her? Why has she stopped complimenting me and flirting with me? Why does she disregard anything flirtatious that I say, and pretend not to notice the first time when I ask her out to something? Doesn't this all tend to suggest that she's not interested in me anymore? On the other hand, when we are together, she does seem to genuinely have a good time. But could I be overreading that? Maybe she has a good time with just about everyone, and merely enjoys my company as a friend? Does it mean anything that when she finally initiated contact for the first time in months it came shortly after my peck on the lips, and she made no mention of it? Most important of all, where do I go from here? How should I proceed? I know some might advise playing the wait game, but I'm fairly sure she's got guys contacting her 24/7. If I don't stay active, she'll just go for one of them. Of course I can't overdo the contact either and come across as clingy, desperate, or needy. Some might say that if I make my intentions too obvious, I could jeopardize friendship. I don't mind losing her as a friend. I've got female friends. I want a girlfriend. I know I shouldn't be this desperate because I actually have another woman right now who is expressing quite a bit of initial interest. The problem with her is I suspect she's too old for me (late 30s, maybe early 40s), and while I'm content to have a good time with her, I really am looking more for someone I could be with in a long-term relationship.
ChessPieceFace Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 She told me about her various "very good" male friends, and how she approached an "interesting guy" at Starbucks and made small talk with him. She mentioned an ex-boyfriend throwing a birthday party for her in the past and "how in love" (present tense) she is with him. I asked if she harbors any hope of reconciliation. She replied, "Some day I'll tell you that story." These anecdotes didn't exactly instill much confidence. LOL. I'll be honest, I didn't painstakingly read your entire 10-page novel here, only skimmed it. But the above sentence is pretty much as far as I need to read. She does NOT judge you to be a man she wants to pursue. I'd give a 90% confidence level on this. Whether that could change or will change, I can't know, but the odds are very strong that you're wasting your time and emotions here.
Author Jefezen Posted January 26, 2013 Author Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) Some people like to read all the details. For those seeking a shorter version: Girl approaches me at a party, flirts, shows a lot of early interest, initiates contact all the time, usually every few days. Once I start initiating contact, girl withdraws, but still agrees to go out with me for the most part. She seems to enjoy herself whenever out with me, mentions she's bad at relationships, discusses other guys ad nauseum. She seems to be popular and have lots of options. While many consider me good looking, I'm not popular, nor do I have a lot of options. She holds a significant job and is an outgoing party animal who clubs on most weekends, constantly adding lots of guys to her Facebook page. I'm more the quiet homebody type. We've only gone out four times over a period of three months (1. movies, 2. masquerade party, 3. New Years Eve party, 4. dinner), mainly because weeks will go by with her not contacting me at all before I eventually give in and contact her. Due to my timidity, I haven't made any romantic moves on her, aside from a semi-forced peck on the lips after our most recent outing. She did not resist it, nor did she express approval. She actually did initiate contact for the first time in awhile post-lip peck but made no mention of it, instead just telling me about how she ran into a mutual friend at a party. Edited January 26, 2013 by Jefezen
ChessPieceFace Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 She seems to enjoy herself whenever out with me, mentions she's bad at relationships, discusses other guys ad nauseum. Again, big red flag there. She's using you as the confidant. You're in the friend zone. She's dumping info to you about all the guys she actually values as potential mates, of which you are not one. She seems to be popular and have lots of options. While many consider me good looking, I'm not popular, nor do I have a lot of options. She holds a significant job and is an outgoing party animal who clubs on most weekends, constantly adding lots of guys to her Facebook page. I'm more the quiet homebody type. Why or how do you think this could work? I have a strong attraction to a certain girl I know who is a partier and clubber and I am a quiet homebody like you. But I wouldn't be stupid enough to actually pursue it. It's simply an attraction which can't go anywhere. I can't imagine how it could ever really work out. I think you are just craving the excitement of pursuing a girl who is socially out of your league.
Author Jefezen Posted January 26, 2013 Author Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) Again, big red flag there. She's using you as the confidant. You're in the friend zone. She's dumping info to you about all the guys she actually values as potential mates, of which you are not one. Aside from the exes she's mentioned, she claims that all the other guys are mere friends, some of them very good friends. I can't know for sure if she values them as potential mates, but she's always used that friend qualifier. Even when she tells me about another guy she considers handsome, she'll follow it up with a complaint about how she's decided not to pursue him for some other reason (one of them insulted her accent, another is an inveterate drunk). She calls me her "friend" too, though, but as others have tried to reassure me, we've only gone out four times over a span of three months, our one moment of awkward intimacy being a peck on the lips that I somewhat forced earlier this week. It's not as though she can refer to me as anything more than a friend at this point. I've known of other couples who called each other friend early on, and it developed into a relationship, even marriage in some instances. Still, the friend word is more often than not a bad sign. Why or how do you think this could work? I have a strong attraction to a certain girl I know who is a partier and clubber and I am a quiet homebody like you. But I wouldn't be stupid enough to actually pursue it. It's simply an attraction which can't go anywhere. I can't imagine how it could ever really work out. Ordinarily I wouldn't pursue such an attraction either. The difference is that she's the one who pursued me first. She walked up to me at a party. She introduced herself. She asked me to dance with her. She bought me two drinks. She called me handsome. She offered me her phone number. She invited me to text her whenever I'm bored. She encouraged me to ask her out to the movies. She spent that entire evening by my side. It was all her in the beginning up through the first couple weeks after the party when she'd also initiate all the text conversations. I didn't do anything at that point. I didn't even convey any interest in her. It was one-directional from her to me, and that's honestly no exaggeration. The shift in dynamics occurred only after I started to contact her and ask her out. Then came the complete 180, where it's all me reaching out and trying to flirt with her. Her initial attraction toward me aside, we do share some common interests and our conversations flow well. Other reasons I was encouraged: 1. the second time we went out, the fairly random mention of her loving alcohol and sex. I thought that was designed to entice me, although soon later she abruptly wanted to leave the party alone after receiving a text message. 2. her availability on New Years Eve. As popular as she seems to be, and even though it took her a couple days to get back to me, she still accepted my invitation to the biggest party night of the year. I wouldn't be surprised if I was a fallback option, but at least I was an option. 3. she claims she wants to settle down and have five kids. At 32, she can't be a party type forever. She's even said as much to me. At our dinner earlier this week, she also tried to dissuade me of the notion that she's always clubbing. She mentioned that she stays in many weekends too, watching movies, cooking, reading books, playing music, etc. She brought this up herself. The optimist in me wants to think she did this to assuage any anxiety I may have about her being too wild to be relationship material. 4. the admission that she's bad at relationships and that they never last means she makes mistakes: sends the wrong signals, says the wrong things, falls into damaging habits, pursues the wrong people, etc. In other words, she may not be as socially adept as other outgoing girls, which would be in my favor because the general rules may not necessarily apply to her individually. I think you are just craving the excitement of pursuing a girl who is socially out of your league.I just want a reasonably attractive girl, period. I don't care what level she's at socially. That's never been important to me. It's the combination of her showing an initial interest in me and my not having a lot of viable options that makes me want to exhaust what may be a remote opportunity at best. Even if get a little pushy (although I'd rather not), I figure I don't have much to lose by trying. I already have plenty of female friends. I want more than that now. Edited January 26, 2013 by Jefezen
veggirl Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 Basically if you have to pick apart the most minute details to explain that "yes she might be interested"...then she isn't interested. She is stringing you along, like she probably is stringing many, many other men along. If she was interested she would be excited to spend more time with you, it's been months and you have gone out 4 times...she is using you for when she is bored. 1
Author Jefezen Posted January 26, 2013 Author Posted January 26, 2013 She is stringing you along, like she probably is stringing many, many other men along. If she was interested she would be excited to spend more time with you, it's been months and you have gone out 4 times...she is using you for when she is bored. So why the intense interest on her part in the beginning? Do women change their minds on a guy that quickly? I just don't understand why she started to wait for me to contact her all the time once I finally started to reciprocate some of that early interest.
veggirl Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 So why the intense interest on her part in the beginning? Do women change their minds on a guy that quickly? I just don't understand why she started to wait for me to contact her all the time once I finally started to reciprocate some of that early interest. Because she loves attention. Once she "got" you, the game was over. She just wanted to secure a man's attention, it makes her feel good to make men want her.
Cutiepie1976 Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) I read the OP, but none of the subsequent posts. Somewhere along the line, you got relegated from potential romantic interest to just another "friend." You mentioned that's your pattern: women signal interest, they are aggressive and initiate, you usually get to first dates with them, but eventually things fizzle out. You also mention that you are very passive, so most of your experience has come primarily from much older women who do steps 1-10 and make the relationship happen. You have at least a partial answer for why you have minimal dating experience and why things tend go nowhere except with women significantly older than you. View this less as critique, and more as observation of different styles. Do with it what you will. I'm sure there is far more to your general difficulties, than what I gleaned from the OP, but it's a start. (The detail was helpful btw!) Generally guys are pretty upfront about their interest. They pursue whoever interests them. They don't wait months to peck someone they like on the lips. They show clear interest in one person. That's my experience. (Right now, you have two women you socialize with and with whom you "hang out"...at least that is probably the perception, and you didn't clarify when asked point blank about it.) Now taking someone to a black-tie NYE event sends a clear message, but it came after she was clearly losing interest and seemed to have given up. Is this common for you? You finally pick up the ball after the woman gives up and starts walking away? We all have preferences. Being very passive and waiting for the woman to do all the work is certainly one option. Dating tends to be very spotty though. Since men overwhelmingly ask, most women don't ask, and the only person ultimately impacted is you. Occasionally some women will ask, but if you don't then take an active role, they move on to someone else who is more "interested." In the future, consider less overthinking and overanalyzing, and more acting on your feelings at the very beginning. Don't wait until after the eleventh hour when things have clearly gone down the tubes to take a more active role. Limit the negative mind chatter. It's self-sabotaging. Just because she glances at her phone doesn't mean she's looking at texts from some other guy she must like. You just make yourself insecure when you jump to unfounded conclusions. And show your intent. It shouldn't take months to attempt a kiss. My sense is you've lost this particular woman. Just learn from the experience and think about what you might do differently to get closer to a relationship next time. Life is a big learning experience! Edited January 26, 2013 by Cutiepie1976 1
Author Jefezen Posted January 26, 2013 Author Posted January 26, 2013 Because she loves attention. Once she "got" you, the game was over. She just wanted to secure a man's attention, it makes her feel good to make men want her. Is there anything I can do to try and escalate things into more of a steady courtship/relationship? I know that people play games, trying to outwit each other in an effort to be the alpha who is in control. I do it sometimes too. It doesn't mean I'm not interested. I'm just trying not to look desperate, even though on the inside I'm boiling over, praying for attention. Sometimes I'll mention other girls too in an effort to build myself up as more popular than I am, as more desirable. I'll intentionally wait an hour, a day, two days, three days, a week, two weeks, to not seem overly eager, even if I'd rather be contacting the girl that very second. Surely I'm not alone in this habit. I know this is probably wishful thinking on my part, but let's look at this story from her perspective. She could be thinking, "What's wrong with this guy? I go up to him at a party, I buy him drinks, I encourage him to ask me out, and he doesn't pay any attention to me for weeks! Why do I always have to be the one contacting him? Finally, he asks me out, we go to a party, I tell him I love sex, he doesn't make a move. A couple weeks later, he actually contacts me for once, I agree to go out with him on New Years Eve (but I tell him that only after a couple days so that I don't look too desperate), I tell him how handsome he looks, I sit with him in his car for over an hour at the end of the night, and still no move! Is he gay?! To hell with him. I don't care if he compliments me. That doesn't mean anything. I want to see action! Then he asks me out ice skating a few days later, I say I'm busy because I don't want to look too available like I have no life outside of him, and he goes silent on me again for two more weeks! After yet another long wait, he gives me a choice of a movie, dinner, or drinks, I pick dinner because that presents the best opportunity to talk to him. I try to make him jealous by mentioning all these other guys, and no reaction! All I get at the end of the night is an awkward peck on the lips! I guess that's some measure of improvement, so I got a little overexcited and texted him a couple nights later to mention that I saw a mutual friend. I know I shouldn't have done that, I know that's a lame excuse for contacting him, I know I should have waited for him to contact me first, but whatever, the delay was killing me! At least I recovered my dignity by not immediately responding to his question about going to a party with him next weekend. That puts me firmly back in control! Is it going to take another two weeks before Mr. Slow Poke contacts me again?" If I were a girl writing the above as my version of the exact same events, the advice here would probably be: "He's not that into you, forget about it! If he liked you, he'd contact you more often than every couple weeks! He would have made a bolder move by now. He probably has other girls on the side and calls you every couple weeks to fill in the vacancies when he's bored. Let him chase you. You're the woman! You're not supposed to be initiating contact! You gave him too much confidence at the start by being so assertive! Now he's just going to string you along until he makes up his mind." But the reality is that I do want her. I've wanted her since that second time we went out. I'm just terrible at escalating from casual date to romantic date. I don't know how to create sexual tension. I don't know how to achieve the right balance between an outward demeanor of calm, nonchalant self-confidence and excitement at the prospect of a relationship. How much contact is too much contact? Am I bothering her if I text her every other day? Is it a mistake to let two weeks go by? I have friends who've told me to let three and four weeks go by to see if she eventually misses me.
sid3 Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) I couldn't make it through the whole OP, it was painfully long. Having skimmed, I am confident in saying you Sir are an ego boost and just another one of her orbiters. Stop wasting your energy on this one, unless you like that sorta thing. Edited January 26, 2013 by sid3 1
Author Jefezen Posted January 26, 2013 Author Posted January 26, 2013 Generally guys are pretty upfront about their interest. They pursue whoever interests them. They don't wait months to peck someone they like on the lips. They show clear interest in one person. That's my experience. That's my experience too actually and I think it might be part of the problem. While this woman was showing a lot of interest in me, I was focused on chasing after someone else who I preferred at the time. It was a very similar situation. Woman #1 had showed strong initial interest. I took too long to do anything with it. She moved on with someone else. I tried to get back into her good graces to no avail. When I came to terms with my defeat, I decided to pursue Woman #2 (the one I'm referring to in this thread). I figured it was time to forget about Woman #1 and pay attention to the new one who was showing so much interest. (Right now, you have two women you socialize with and with whom you "hang out"...at least that is probably the perception, and you didn't clarify when asked point blank about it.) I only met this woman (I'll call her Woman #3) a couple nights ago at another party. Like the others preceding her, she's shown a high level of interest at the early stages. The problem is that I'm so emotionally invested in trying to resuscitate the probable lost cause of Woman #2 that I'm not particularly interested in attempting anything with Woman #3, who asked me out to the movies a day after meeting me, and texted me throughout the day while at her work. As I alluded to earlier, Woman #3 is likely in her late 30s/early 40s. I can't envision a future with her, the way I can with Woman #2. Of course once I inevitably fail with Woman #2, I'll probably come crawling back to Woman #3, and by then it'll be too late. I generally prefer to pursue one woman at a time but maybe that's a mistake because of the critical importance of timing. Now taking someone to a black-tie NYE event sends a clear message, but it came after she was clearly losing interest and seemed to have given up. Is this common for you? You finally pick up the ball after the woman gives up and starts walking away? Yes. This happens every time. Woman shows an initial burst of interest, seemingly can't get enough of me, then drifts away as my interest in her increases. I don't fall for people as easily (and as fleetingly) as they seem to fall for me. I have to get to know someone first, at least over an outing or two. Yet it seems as though if I don't push for intimacy very early on, I lose the woman entirely or only keep her around as a friend. We all have preferences. Being very passive and waiting for the woman to do all the work is certainly one option. It's not a preference as much as a reality thrust upon me by timidity. My other problem with making a move is that I'm just too shy to try anything physical on my own accord. Fortunately, there actually are some women out there (not many) who have been sufficiently attracted to take total control of everything. Otherwise I'd be the character in 40 Yearold Virgin. And in fairness to me, I do tend to open up and become increasingly comfortable with someone over time, maybe after four or five outings (probably too long). In the future, consider less overthinking and overanalyzing, and more acting on your feelings at the very beginning. I'm often worried that if I act on my feelings, I'll come across as clingy, needy, desperate. In my ideal early stages of a relationship, the woman in my life would be contacting me at least once a day, wanting to meet up with me a couple times a week. But there was a girl I pursued a few years back where I tried to get into the habit of frequent contact and she flat out told me that it was too much (even though it really was only once every other day). After rejecting me, she explained rather bluntly that I was coming across as desperate and that in the future I ought to be more aloof and passive. Maybe I've taken that advice too far the other way. Don't wait until after the eleventh hour when things have clearly gone down the tubes to take a more active role. Limit the negative mind chatter. It's self-sabotaging. Just because she glances at her phone doesn't mean she's looking at texts from some other guy she must like. I know you're right. I always fear the worst and it consumes me to the point where I can't concentrate on anything else. And show your intent. It shouldn't take months to attempt a kiss. Because both of us seem to be playing the "Wait for him/her to text you first!" game, we only see each other a couple times a month, hence the modest four times out in three months time. It was our fourth outing when I finally attempted a kiss, the mere peck on the lips. I can forgive myself for not trying anything the first outing (the movie date when she seemed even more timid than I was) and on the second outing (the party where she abruptly left early and seemed preoccupied), but for sure I should have tried something on New Years. Making a mild attempt on the fourth outing was likely too little too late. It was after that first movie date (where she was overly apologetic afterwards for not giving me much of a chance to talk) that she stopped taking the initiative to contact me. Almost a month went by before I saw her again for Outing #2.
Cutiepie1976 Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 I'm not going to quote your super-long posts defending your behavior and telling us how women think. Thanks for the education on our thought processes btw. How is all of this working for you? If you're looking for a healthy relationship, please stop playing mind games, jousting for "alpha" or whatever it is you think you are doing, and then clinging with a death grip as soon as it it becomes clear the person has no interest in either being your sloppy seconds or your mind games. No one is that invested at the beginning. That's why interest can flip off so quickly. There are always other fish. No one goes through the overly complicated mental pretzels you feel take place in women's minds. You met this woman last October. She probably said...hmm, I'm interested. He's not biting. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my signaling. I'll try again. Depending on how interested and aggressive the person, how much of a catch you might be to her, she may persist for a while...or just never bother. At some point, many healthy women in search of a relationship will assume you are not interested and disengage. Telling her at that point about other women doesn't help your case. It's just the final nail in the coffin. After she's disengaged you swing into action and chase? And you now won't give up? Where was this enthusiasm and determination three months ago? At some point, you will accept that woman#2 wrote you off...a long time ago (while you were intently focused on woman #1, who I'd guess found someone else while you played your "alpha" game on her). When you finally go chasing after woman#3, who you've been ignoring in your bid for woman#2, how do you think it will be received? Do you think she's going to welcome clearly being your sloppy thirds? Of course not! She will probably have focused on someone else by the time you get to her. But, at that point, once she's lost interest, you'll chase her relentlessly anyway, ignoring the fact that things have definitively gone down the drain with her too. Lather-rinse-repeat the overcomplicated mess. Please learn to be yourself. People will either like you or not. Dating is no different than forming friendships or any other type of human bond. Do you plot and have all these machinations when you are becoming buddies with someone? Probably not. Dating is no different. You either click or you don't. Pick one person who actually excites you and focus on her, rather than hedge your bets with several and try to play them off each other in this "alpha" game of yours. You weren't really interested in either #2 or #3, but when it was clear you had no other prospects, you finally considered them. Go for women you actually like instead. 2
Author Jefezen Posted January 26, 2013 Author Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) I'm not going to quote your super-long posts defending your behavior and telling us how women think. Thanks for the education on our thought processes btw. How is all of this working for you? I'm not sure what you're referencing? I can't read minds. If I could, I'd be in better shape. If you're looking for a healthy relationship, please stop playing mind games, jousting for "alpha" or whatever it is you think you are doing, and then clinging with a death grip as soon as it it becomes clear the person has no interest in either being your sloppy seconds or your mind games. It's not clear to me that the person has no interest. It's less than it was at the start but she's still gone out with me four out of the five times I've asked, including a black tie New Years gala. When we're together in person, we seem to get along well. She did not reject my peck on the lips and actually initiated contact with me a couple days later (something she hadn't done in months). I'm not trying to be alpha. I'm trying not to come across as overly eager or desperate. If I reach out to her too often, if I ask her out too much, I'm worried she'll think I have no life. No one is that invested at the beginning.Then why am I expected to be invested from the beginning? Women show strong interest in me when we first meet. I'm not able to determine whether I like them back until after I've gotten to know them a little. I'm not sure why that's so terrible, but apparently I have to fake romantic interest from the start or I'll never stand a chance. It seems like I'm given only two outings before I'm expected to pounce. Telling her at that point about other women doesn't help your case. It's just the final nail in the coffin.She talks about the other men in her life (supposedly platonic) far more than my mentioning of other women. She even asked me point blank about other women on a couple occasions. It's not as though I randomly say, "Hey, there's this other woman in my life that I'm seeing. She's hot." But I do try to present myself through Facebook in such a way as to appear popular with women, and when asked, of course I'm going to make it seem like I have an active social life. She doesn't know about Woman #3 at all. At our most recent dinner she asked me about some other girl we have as a mutual friend on Facebook, wondering how well I know her. I had never played that up at all. After she's disengaged you swing into action and chase? And you now won't give up? Where was this enthusiasm and determination three months ago?As you yourself said, no one is that invested in the beginning. Neither was I. I didn't really know her. When she was at the apex of her interest in me, we had just met, and I was focused on someone else. I didn't start to like her until after our second time out together. By then, her interest seemed to fade, but I figured since she had done all the chasing the first few weeks, it was my turn to chase. The problem is I've been chasing ever since, and now she barely talks to me unless I make the effort. The fact that she admitted to me she's bad at relationships somewhat encourages me because it might mean she's playing all these stupid games too. At some point, you will accept that woman#2 wrote you off...a long time ago (while you were intently focused on woman #1, who I'd guess found someone else while you played your "alpha" game on her).I did not play an alpha game on her. She told me she was married and I thought I would be a respectful gentleman and wait until her divorce was official before putting the moves on her. She claimed to be a conservative Muslim too. That turned out to be a farce and she found someone who was willing to be available to her in every way. I actually had no issues about contact with her. Right up until the end she initiated contact about 80% of the time, and it was almost daily. I did not give up easily because I genuinely developed feelings for her. Once she firmly rejected me, I gave up. When you finally go chasing after woman#3, who you've been ignoring in your bid for woman#2, how do you think it will be received?Not well, but what do you advise that I do instead? Pretend I like her before I even know her? Why does the rule about not being invested in someone from the start not apply to me? Is that for women only? Am I supposed to try and seduce every woman I meet in the off chance that maybe later on I'll like her? I'm thinking about taking that approach this time. Being honest with myself and following my own timetable doesn't seem to work. Pick one person who actually excites you and focus on her, rather than hedge your bets with several and try to play them off each other in this "alpha" game of yours.Again, you have it backwards. As a result of my NOT playing women off each other, and only pursuing one at a time, I'm losing out on those who express interest in me before I'm interested in them. If I really were playing women off each other, I would have expressed interest in both Women #2 and 3 right away, as soon as those opportunities presented themselves. I didn't do that in either instance (although in the case of #3, there's still time to do so, as it's a very fresh situation). Bottomline, I'm definitely interested in Woman #2 now. While I think it's far more likely than not that she only considers me a potential friend at this juncture, I don't know that with absolute 100% certainty, and given I want a girlfriend at this point and not just another platonic female friend of which I have plenty, I figure I might as well go all-out (within reason) to see if I can salvage something. It's not as though we're on bad terms or as though she's flat out rejected me. We get along quite well. It's just I get the sense I'm friendzoned. I have to find a way to step things up, to escalate. I'd rather be flat out rejected than left to wonder whether something could have developed. Sometimes persistence pays off. She was persistent with me for a time. But I still have to go about it the right way, and I'm not sure how. I also have to decide quickly whether to pursue Woman #3 simultaneously on the off chance that I'd end up interested in her at some point in the future. Edited January 26, 2013 by Jefezen
Cutiepie1976 Posted January 26, 2013 Posted January 26, 2013 I'll keep it simple. #2, who wasn't good enough when you were chasing #1, now has zero interest in you as a potential boyfriend. Too little, too late. She went to the black-tie event because it was the best of her options. It took her two days to get back to you with a yes for a reason! Going out with you is no longer about you. It's about the event now. She has clearly moved on from last October when she showed interest. You should too. You said #3 was too old and you couldn't possibly envision a future with her! I am not going to wade through the morass to find your negative statements about her in you're posts, but they are in there in black and white. You're dating her out of sheer desperation. It will end the same way. Go find someone else. Someone who actually interests and excites you...say like #1 did. You are obviously a decent catch if women are going out of their way to aggressively show interest. Most send subtle signals and nothing more. Why don't you go ask someone who actually interests you rather than sifting among people you don't really like or care for because they are too "this or that." Are you saying #1 was married and seeking affairs? I don't follow.
Author Jefezen Posted January 27, 2013 Author Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) I'll keep it simple. #2, who wasn't good enough when you were chasing #1, now has zero interest in you as a potential boyfriend. Too little, too late. She went to the black-tie event because it was the best of her options. It took her two days to get back to you with a yes for a reason!Is that really so terrible? It was only our third time out. We're not boyfriend-girlfriend. I don't expect to be her only option. Why shouldn't I have competition? The fact that I was an option, and the winning option (at least for that night) is better than not being an option at all, right? I have to earn her affection by being the best of the various candidates. Going out with you is no longer about you. It's about the event now.We've also gone out once since the New Years gala to a restaurant she's been to many times before. Is that about the event too? I agree that chances are high that I'm no longer a boyfriend candidate. I'm not convinced that they're 0%. She went up in my estimation over time, I don't see why I can't go up for her too. She has a very active social life, she's studying for a major job-related exam in March, I only contact her once every couple weeks. Maybe if I step up the frequency I'll have better luck. Maybe she'll make it increasingly clear that I'm not a boyfriend option. I don't fear a direct rejection. I prefer it. I don't want even a scintilla of doubt. If she tells me, "Let's just be friends," so be it. I'll be upset, but at least then I'll know I gave it my all and I can search elsewhere with an open conscience. You said #3 was too old and you couldn't possibly envision a future with her! I am not going to wade through the morass to find your negative statements about her in you're posts, but they are in there in black and white. You're dating her out of sheer desperation. It will end the same way. Go find someone else. Someone who actually interests and excites you...say like #1 did.Dating doesn't always have to be about finding a life partner. I'd honestly prefer to find Miss Right, but maybe I need the practice with other women first so that I don't continue to make the same mistakes of waiting too long to make a move. As long as she's not emotionally invested in me, and it's more a friends with benefits type arrangement (I know I'm getting way ahead of myself here), then maybe it wouldn't be so bad. You are obviously a decent catch if women are going out of their way to aggressively show interest. Most send subtle signals and nothing more.This is precisely why I have such a hard time giving up on anyone until the rejection is clear and unambiguous. I can't fathom how someone can display such clear interest and then have it dissipate practically overnight before anything really has a chance to ever develop. There was nothing I did between our first outing to the movies and our second outing to the masquerade party (three weeks later!) to merit such a dropoff in esteem and attention. That's what makes me think that there might be a slight chance that perhaps I'm just not trying hard enough and she wants to be chased. Why don't you go ask someone who actually interests you rather than sifting among people you don't really like or care for because they are too "this or that."No one else interests me as much right now. There's one girl who is a maybe, but like I said before, I prefer to pursue one at a time. The problem with that strategy is loss of momentum with the other prospects. Are you saying #1 was married and seeking affairs? I don't follow. She had a restraining order against her husband and was in the process of divorcing him, however she claimed multiple times to me that she's a conservative Muslim. We even had a chaperone on our first two dates. We grew very close to one another, or so I thought, and I fell hard for her. We went out on at least 20 dates, maybe more. We were together practically every other day, on the phone every other night. We had marathon conversations. We went on some day trips together. Everything was going great. I thought I was being respectful of her culture and situation by not trying anything intimate beyond a hug and hand-holding. I even told her that multiple times, giving her an opportunity to assert otherwise. I thought wrong. Some other guy came along and they apparently became intimate quite quickly. One day I asked her out, as I had been doing for the last several months, and she told me she'd found someone else and no longer wanted to be with me. I honestly think my hesitance to push intimacy is what turns women away from me. I wait until I like them and feel comfortable with them. They seem to want something right away, even if they verbally claim otherwise (as the married one did repeatedly). Edited January 27, 2013 by Jefezen
Imajerk17 Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) Well, this is my take. Don't take it too harshly, because NONE of #1, #2, or #3 sound like good prospects. (Too many red flags with #1 and #2, and #3 isn't really a prospect except that she is showing interest in you and if she loses interest in you then you will be hooked.) It sounds to me basically that the women are leading and you are following. They are the ones who are driving the relationship and then you are following along until it is too late. Sums up most of the advice given here. Think about that. And taking a girl to a black-tie whom you haven't even kissed seems weak to me. Like you're bribing her to hang out with you using this fancy event. Edited January 27, 2013 by Imajerk17
Author Jefezen Posted January 27, 2013 Author Posted January 27, 2013 And taking a girl to a black-tie whom you haven't even kissed seems weak to me. Like you're bribing her to hang out with you using this fancy event. I can see that point of view, but we're both of European origin and Europeans celebrate New Years Eve more lavishly. I actually saw plenty of people at that party who were only there as friends. The other three times we went out were not overly expensive outings: a movie (I paid for the tickets, she paid for the coffees), a masquerade party that cost $25/ticket (she paid for my drinks and my mask), and dinner at a restaurant of her choice (she offered to pay, I insisted on covering the $116 tab). She's a financial analyst for a large company who wakes up at 6am Monday-Friday and generally only goes out on Saturdays (sometimes Fridays). She's made exceptions to that twice to go out with me on weeknights (movies on a Tuesday, dinner on a Wednesday). She's very close to her cousin and usually spends weekends with her. She also has a lot of friends, both male and female who dominate her time. That, along with her studying for this big test in March (which she told me about even when she was displaying a lot of interest in me), limit her availablity. I want to be understanding of that, but at the same time it's difficult to build any sort of momentum when I'm only seeing her once or twice a month, and hearing from her maybe three or four times a month. I also don't want to come across as too needy by demanding that I see her at least once a week, when I know there are others who want to spend time with her as well.
Author Jefezen Posted January 27, 2013 Author Posted January 27, 2013 I want to go to bed and Woman #3 won't stop chatting with me and trying to make plans to go out. She's claiming to be three years older than her brother, whose birthday is listed on Facebook as April, 1983. I know that her birthday is in May, but no year is displayed with it. That makes her 32 or 33 now, depending on whether she counts a three year difference as 2 years, 11 months or 3 years, 11 months. She looks at least 38 to me. I suppose Eastern Europeans tend to age faster.
Author Jefezen Posted January 27, 2013 Author Posted January 27, 2013 It was there, but it's NOT THERE ANYMORE. Why is that so hard to accept? Because there was nothing that happened between outings #1 and 2 to logically make that interest evaporate. By outward appearances, it faded a little too soon to be based on anything rational. The only thing that changed was I started to initiate contact, instead of always waiting for her to reach out to me. That's it. And there were still moments up through the second to last outing where she was flirtatious. Everyone here seems to think that feelings remain on a constant linear trajectory. Is that really true? They don't dip and rise over time and according to circumstances? They do for me. You've been friendzoned. Any woman who turns her CHEEK to you when you're going to kiss her does NOT have a romantic interest in you. She didn't know I was going to kiss her. She offered her cheek in advance before I leaned in to do anything. Why should she offer me her lips when I had never attempted to kiss her before? She likely assumed I was going to give her a goodnight peck on the cheek as I had done the other three times. Stop wasting your time, effort and money squiring this woman all over town when all you are to her is a pleasant diversion. I don't see what more I have to lose. If I quit trying, that's also a loss. I don't care about spending money. Some guys who are persistent (within reason) actually get what they want. If I continue to pursue her and she makes it abundantly clear that she's not interested, at least I no longer have any lingering doubts about exhausting what may have been an opportunity. If I continue to pursue her, I might also find that she had simply relaxed once she saw me making an effort, and decided she could be the one in control, just as I had been in the early going. That's a far more comfortable position to be in than the one of pursuer. She's already admitted to me that she's terrible at dating and relationships. She may not even be cognizant of the negative signals she's sending me. I agree that it's more than 95% likely that I'm grasping for something that'll never happen, but a lot of people give up way too easily. It's not as though I've been going out with this girl for years, or even several months, and we have a well-defined history together. It's been four outings and I didn't try anything remotely romantic until the most recent one this past week. To me, that means it's still relatively early in the process.
Cutiepie1976 Posted January 27, 2013 Posted January 27, 2013 With all due respect, I think you would benefit tremendously from counseling. When a woman is clearly unavailable or moves on to someone else, she suddenly becomes incredibly attractive and irresistible to you. Perhaps you are afraid of relationships? The intimacy of emotional connection? The vulnerability that comes with truly opening yourself up? The potential for interdependence and permanence? Is it possible finding someone is more about social expectation for you, but you dread this at some level? At any rate, your posts are replete with magical thinking. Unfortunately, it's almost as if you crave fantasy rather than reality, particularly since you are so adamant about defending an approach that clearly isn't giving you what you claim to want. Just a thought, but possibly fear of emotional intimacy is the reason why you start doggedly chasing after women as soon as they make it crystal clear that they are so not interested anymore and you don't stand a chance. Why aren't YOU pursuing women who excite YOU...who YOU find attractive? Why are you sifting through women who by your own admission are deeply flawed and unattractive to you. Seriously? So old I could never envision myself with her (your description of woman#3)...but she's a possibility if I can't "win" against the other "competitors" for #2. I just glanced at your old posts, and #1 was undereducated, vapid, and so unintellectual it bothered you...and married, of course. But as soon as she picked someone else, you were beside yourself and pursued and grovelled to the very bitter end. None of your descriptions of the women you engage with are positive. They are all incredibly negative and condescending at the outset (e.g. swarthy and unattractive). That's not a healthy pattern. I don't mean to offend, but please seek help if you truly want what you claim to want.
Author Jefezen Posted January 28, 2013 Author Posted January 28, 2013 With all due respect, I think you would benefit tremendously from counseling. When a woman is clearly unavailable or moves on to someone else, she suddenly becomes incredibly attractive and irresistible to you. False. I liked Woman #1 from the start and she reciprocated that interest for awhile. I recognized her flaws and overlooked them because of that attraction. I'm the one who approached her. I persisted in trying to revitalize whatever it is we had because I genuinely liked her. To this day, she would be my favorite if circumstances were more favorable toward me. But she's taken. She somewhat fears me now because I opened up to her about my feelings (contrary to your assertion that I'm incapable or unwilling to do so) and now there's no choice but to accept something significantly less than what I had before. Woman #2 I got interested in after our second outing. Why am I expected to always know who I want at first sight? Do you always know what you want the first time you meet someone? Personality matters too. It's not all about looks. It takes time to learn who someone is and whether you think you share things in common. My attraction to Woman #2 is more philosophically-based. We share many of the same perspectives and seem to connect when holding deep conversations. That's not something I possibly could have known at the outset. I really like talking to her. She understands my philosophy. I understand her philosophy. That makes her attractive to me. We're also at the same stage of life, hoping to settle down and start families. Our social experiences are quite different, but our ambitions, beliefs, interests and values very similar. I don't really know Woman #3. I'm not interested in her at first sight, but maybe with time I might like her. I can't possibly know that unless I go out with her, spend time with her, learn more about who she is, and discover whether we could be compatible. I'm an open-minded person. I don't measure someone solely by the first encounter and hold to that judgment forever. I reject such rigidity. If I find that I could never see myself with Woman #3, I won't pursue her, available or otherwise. There are actually plenty of women I don't pursue. I haven't mentioned them all, but there are two others in recent weeks who have expressed interest and they're not at all on my radar as candidates, nor will they ever be. I'm just not attracted to them whatsoever. Taken or not, I'm indifferent to them. Woman #3 is pretty. She seems like a nice person. She's educated. She just looks older than her age and I don't know enough about her to make a definitive decision one way or the other. I see nothing wrong with categorizing girlfriend candidates in the "definitely yes," "maybe" and "no way" categories. Two of the women I recently met are in the "no way" category. Woman #1 was in the "definitely yes" category (not entirely logical, I know, but love or whatever I had for her is not always rational). Woman #2 was in the "maybe" category and shifted to the "definitely yes" category after the second outing. Woman #3 remains in the "maybe" category. When I know a woman is taken, I don't pursue her romantically. Woman #2 could tell me this second that she has a boyfriend and I'd quit immediately. I see no allure to chasing after people who are taken. Quitting on someone merely because she doesn't initiate contact as much as before doesn't rise to that same level. Just a thought, but possibly fear of emotional intimacy is the reason why you start doggedly chasing after women as soon as they make it crystal clear that they are so not interested anymore and you don't stand a chance. I don't fear emotional intimacy. I crave it. That's why I was satisfied with a non-physical quasi-romantic relationship with Woman #1. Just cuddling with her in cozy settings was more than enough for me. I fear physical intimacy. As a result, I move too slowly and women get impatient and/or sense my lack of confidence with touch. Then when I notice them fading on me, I figure I'll lose them for sure unless I push myself extra hard to convey that physical desire they probably sought from me at the beginning. As for how this all applies to the present situation, there's zero evidence at the moment that Woman #2 is "clearly unavailable" or "move[d] on to someone else." Adding guys to Facebook or mentioning male friends is not tantamount to being in a relationship with them or sleeping with them. I don't know her every move. I sense a fading interest due to her lack of initiative in contacting me, but that alone doesn't make her "clearly unavailable" or with someone else. Unfortunately, it's almost as if you crave fantasy rather than reality, particularly since you are so adamant about defending an approach that clearly isn't giving you what you claim to want. I was also told by just about everyone here to forget completely about Woman #1, that she'd never talk to me again, that she'd never at least agree to be friends, that I'd never be able to return to civility with her. I pressed on anyway and somewhat succeeded in my efforts. Eventually she did start talking to me again, she forgave me, and she said we're friends. We're not super close like we were before, but we're at least on speaking terms, and that's enough for me. Rationally, I know she's not a good match romantically and I can accept that now. Why aren't YOU pursuing women who excite YOU...who YOU find attractive? Like I said before, Woman #1 excited me. I pursued her. Woman #2 excited me after the second outing. I'm pursuing her now. Why are you sifting through women who by your own admission are deeply flawed and unattractive to you. Who isn't flawed? I don't expect perfection from anyone. Seriously? So old I could never envision myself with her (your description of woman#3)...but she's a possibility if I can't "win" against the other "competitors" for #2. Apparently she's not as old as I thought. I talked to her for awhile last night and she's either 32 or 33. I never said she was unattractive, just that she looks considerably older than me. I just glanced at your old posts, and #1 was undereducated, vapid, and so unintellectual it bothered you...and married, of course. But as soon as she picked someone else, you were beside yourself and pursued and grovelled to the very bitter end. Incorrect. I liked her the whole time from the moment I first set eyes on her and decided to ask for her contact information. She's one of the only women I've ever approached in my life. Obviously when you like someone, you're going to try and hold on when you sense you're losing them. The attraction never wavered.
Author Jefezen Posted February 12, 2013 Author Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) Update: The naysayers were right (surprise, surprise)! I initiated text conversations with Woman #2 on two more occasions just to say hello, not to ask her out to anything. On both occasions she waited an hour and a half before answering me and was very brief. She'd give me one lengthy reply, then say she wanted to study. Yet I could see that she seemed to have plenty of time to post videos on Facebook right afterwards. In one of those conversations she said something along the lines of, "It's great to see you going out to so many places and having fun. I hope this continues for you." It sounded distant and patronizing to me, almost like a goodbye. She went on to say that she's not attached to anyone or anything in this country but that she wants to remain here, at least for now. I flirtatiously replied, "Selfishly, I'm glad to know that. ;)" She ignored this comment. Last night, I reached out to her for only the third time in the last two weeks, asking her out to Valentines Day dinner. I suggested a restaurant she had told me about in the past that is one of her favorites. Per her new usual, it took her an hour and a half to respond. She basically said, "Yes, that's one of my favorite places. Thank you so much for the invitation. You are always such a thoughtful gentleman. But I have other plans for Thursday." She did not suggest an alternative time to see me, nor did she attempt to continue the conversation in any way. Just to be completely sure that these plans are not work-related, or otherwise benign, I point blank asked her, in very polite terms, with the following exact words: "If I may be forward, and you don't have to answer this question, are you or have you recently been seeing anyone?" It took her 15 minutes to answer. She said, "Let's not talk about this." That was it. I replied, "I'm asking because I get the sense recently that I'm bothering you whenever I say hello or ask you out to various things, and I don't want to make you uncomfortable, not knowing your situation." She didn't respond at all, however I could see that she was actively posting things on Facebook and was therefore still awake. An hour and a half later, I texted her again, asking, "Are you angry? Have I offended you? I respect your privacy." No reply to that either. It's now been nearly 24 hours since that text message and still nothing. I'm obviously not going to send a third straight unanswered text message. If she doesn't get back to me, I just have to deal with it. Even if she does offer a tardy reply, I'm done initiating contact with her. I've clearly exhausted every avenue. It's abundantly obvious, including to me at this point, that she's just not into me anymore. I'm out of excuses for her. Edited February 12, 2013 by Jefezen
Author Jefezen Posted February 12, 2013 Author Posted February 12, 2013 Long-winded reflection time: The reason I tried so hard was because early on she had been all over me, very interested, frequent contact, wanting to go out with me, making all these elaborate long-term plans to do all these fun things together (yet curiously never making an effort to actuate any of them), complimenting my looks, asking not so subtle questions about what I want out of a romantic partner, smiling incessantly, flirting, etc. I couldn't fathom that this attitude would disappear seemingly overnight. I hated seeing this happen to me with a second straight prospect and vowed to push on until not a scintilla of doubt remained in my mind that I no longer had a chance. In that sense, I'm not too upset with myself for sacrificing my dignity. Dignity is overrated. Why should I care what she thinks of me at this point? Defeat is defeat, whether I resign preemptively on my own accord, or humiliate myself in the process of refusing to obey the stop signs. She's not even friend worthy if she's never going to pay any kind of attention to me. I'm going to try and look at this loss as another step in my progression toward success. As an inexperienced dater, I am bound to make rookie mistakes. At least I'm improving to some extent, however limited. I actually forced myself to kiss this woman, something I had heretofore avoided initiating. I conversed relatively well when in person with her. I pushed myself into the type of social settings she favored (club scene, dance clubs, parties) and surprisingly discovered an ability to assimilate competently into that environment. Now I go to such events without her and usually end up meeting a new girl or two. Tonight I have a date with Woman #3. I'm picking her up and we're going out to the movies. She already seems insecure about my interest in her, and understandably so, as I'm honestly not that attracted. (She asked me last night if I'm going to the movies with her out of an obligation to not hurt her feelings as opposed to genuinely wanting to be with her). In truth, I'm going out with her more as a distraction from my defeat with Woman #2 and because I need the practice. I also find that I tend to do better on dates when I'm not emotionally invested in the outcome. Women seem to like me more when I don't like them. That's how it was with Woman #2. She chased and chased, then when she lured me in, she threw me back into the water. Maybe that was her gameplan all along, or perhaps she just met someone else she found more interesting. Either way, the outcome remains the same: I lost. Although in some ways, maybe I also won because now I'm prepared to open myself back up to other possibilities, including women who objectively would be better matches for me anyway (shared cultural/religious background, common interests, similar values, etc.) Woman #2 and I were extremely different aside from both holding stable white collar careers. Her various hints of promiscuity and literally hundreds of male orbiters had always disturbed me. Had I gotten into a relationship with her, I never would have trusted her (for good reason) and probably would have just been even more hurt later on when she'd inevitably drop me for the new flavor of the week. By her own admission, she likes to play the field and is terrible at holding a relationship. I'm the opposite. I have no interest in playing the field. It's the relationship I want. I was also at a disadvantage because her stated preference was for someone from her country of origin so that any future kids grow up speaking her native language and embracing her native customs. I can't compete with the men who fit that profile because I'm not of that background. I need to stop catching bouts of oneitis. I need to stop projecting fantasies onto women who don't match up well with me, merely because they express an early interest and make themselves initially available. I need to stop accepting and excusing apathy and rudeness. There are a lot of women out there, and I'm fortunate to have some of them come up to me themselves. The more I date, the sooner I'll find the right match. Everyone, even the most attractive and affluent extroverts, strike out sometimes. No one has a perfect record. And for the relationship-minded, like myself, it only takes one hit to succeed. For some reason, this knowledge doesn't completely assuage the pain of defeat, or the jealousy of whoever does get to play around with the women who once displayed intense interest in me, but that's life, and everyone goes through it. I am noticing that with each successive loss, I require less and less recovery time. It's a bigger deal when you're not accustomed to having any women at all, and then you seemingly have a decent chance with a relatively attractive one and it goes wrong. As the women pile up, I expect that my objectification of them, the placing of them on the proverbial pedestal, the oneitis will decrease in proportion.
sid3 Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 Sounds to me you have mistaken their friendliness for intense interest. If there truly had been intense interest you wouldn't be sitting there with lead in your pencil and nobody to write to.
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