MrCastle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I agree and that's why I'm stuck in NY. I don't "love Europe so much" I was just saying that by comparison NY is not as innovative as people make it seem. I'm Jewish too, so I feel comfy in NY as there are more Jews in the city than almost anywhere in the world. There are many things I like about the city. Being culturally innovative and exciting as I expected is not one of them. Also, I feel that I can play a role in the city's innovation as I see its flaws clearly and that's an advantage professionally. I don't get overwhelmed thinking this is the best place in the world. I think that's what Bloomberg (and others) mean when he says let's bring more skilled foreigners to change ideas and things. I know but what you're saying is opinion. I gave you a link factually measuring as far as you can measure things creative/cultural. How many museums/art galleries, how many performance art centers, how many nightclubs, the racial demographic etc. The only American city that made the list is New York. That's it. Everywhere else came from Asia and Europe. Just because you feel New York isn't up to your cultural standards, doesn't mean it's not cultural at all. As far as what you can measure, it makes the grade in every category, as far as American cities go. New York is cultural.
edgygirl Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I came of age in New York during the early to mid 90s and while it was good that they got rid of the crime and cleaned up some things it lost it's soul in the process. Back in the 70s New York pretty much set the mark on things from Disco to Hip Hop to Punk and many other things. They also set trends in the 80s and 90s but these days it is just a shallow yuppie paradise and you have to have a small fortune to even live in a closet. There are no more clubs like CBGB's' Coney Island High,Limelight and other places anymore. I left in 2002 and don't regret it. At least back in the day the reputation kept away all the rich kids moving there from Nebraska wanting to emulate what they see on tv. THAT'S what I'm talking about. Thanks! (And man, I miss CBGB They closed in my first month in the city. I should have previewed it was a sign that the city was sinking culturally.)
MrCastle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 the city was sinking culturally.) But it's not. For every club that closed is a new club that opened in the meat packing district. This is what I'm trying to explain to you. In *your* mind the city is "sinking culturally". In reality, it's not. Perhaps this is more to do with you getting older and getting more and more further removed from the younger demographic.
Woggle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I saw a few shows there. I went to a Bad Brains peformance where they killed it. Coney Island high at St Mark's Place was also my hangout. They used to have raves in the basement where some wild stuff went down. I go to my old hangout spots right now and I don't even recognize it anymore.
edgygirl Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I know but what you're saying is opinion. I gave you a link factually measuring as far as you can measure things creative/cultural. How many museums/art galleries, how many performance art centers, how many nightclubs, the racial demographic etc. The only American city that made the list is New York. That's it. Everywhere else came from Asia and Europe. Just because you feel New York isn't up to your cultural standards, doesn't mean it's not cultural at all. As far as what you can measure, it makes the grade in every category, as far as American cities go. New York is cultural. I totally understand your point and by measurements and statistics the city obviously has it all. But read Woggle post. I am not even originally from the city but I can't help but feel, as him, that the city has lost its soul. There's something off. Maybe it's just a phase due to the economy or so. I certainly hope so. As I really want to fall in love with the city again. My whole point asking about SF is that I feel people who are game changers and into subcultures (where I believe real innovation comes from) keep telling me that SF has more of that culture. As I said I don't know and that's why I asked OP.
Woggle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 But it's not. For every club that closed is a new club that opened in the meat packing district. This is what I'm trying to explain to you. In *your* mind the city is "sinking culturally". In reality, it's not. Perhaps this is more to do with you getting older and getting more and more further removed from the younger demographic. It is sinking and take that from somebody who grew up in the thick of it. Name one movement they have started that is on the level of hip hop, punk disco or anything else that sent shockwaves through the music world. They do nothing innovative anymore. 1
edgygirl Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 But it's not. For every club that closed is a new club that opened in the meat packing district. This is what I'm trying to explain to you. In *your* mind the city is "sinking culturally". In reality, it's not. Perhaps this is more to do with you getting older and getting more and more further removed from the younger demographic. Hmm meatpacking is NOT culturally interesting. It's where Barbies and Kens go out. Good for them, but I tell you that's NOT where culture or at least what I consider interesting culture comes from. Ah. I go to many industrial alternative subculture nights out. And I look 30 max. I hang out with people 25-40. Meaning me being older had nothing to do with me not knowing where innovative interesting stuff is. I understand why you'd think that though.
MrCastle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I totally understand your point and by measurements and statistics the city obviously has it all. But read Woggle post. I am not even originally from the city but I can't help but feel, as him, that the city has lost its soul. There's something off. Maybe it's just a phase due to the economy or so. I certainly hope so. As I really want to fall in love with the city again. My whole point asking about SF is that I feel people who are game changers and into subcultures (where I believe real innovation comes from) keep telling me that SF has more of that culture. As I said I don't know and that's why I asked OP. Well if we're going by what we can measure, San Fran is not. New York is still the top dog in this country. Again, by what's concrete. We can't get into the minds of individuals and measure who is truly cultured/open minded/creative and who's a poser. But we can measure the amount of places specifically made for the performing arts/other kinds of arts. We can measure the amount of nightclubs the city has. We can measure how many different ethnicities and religions populate the region. By those measures, New York is the top dog. What you're saying sounds more of an "in my day" kind of rant where things are not what they used to be. Don't take that as an insult or a slight about age in anyway. I get that way too when I say music sucks nowadays and teenagers overhear me and say music now is better than it was in the 90s when I was coming up. It's a generational/opinionated argument on your side. I'm giving you actual data that shows New York is very much the cultural destination it is widely perceived to be.
MrCastle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 It is sinking and take that from somebody who grew up in the thick of it. Name one movement they have started that is on the level of hip hop, punk disco or anything else that sent shockwaves through the music world. They do nothing innovative anymore. So because they're not creating an entirely new genre of music every decade means they're not innovative? How do you know they're not making new strides in the world of photography, or painting, or sculpting, or dance, or any other kind of art that is less commercial than music?
edgygirl Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I saw a few shows there. I went to a Bad Brains peformance where they killed it. Coney Island high at St Mark's Place was also my hangout. They used to have raves in the basement where some wild stuff went down. I go to my old hangout spots right now and I don't even recognize it anymore. I know exactly what you mean :/ There are some producers trying to keep interesting things alive though. That's why I got into this industrial music subculture lately. Nothing much interesting happening besides that right now.
edgygirl Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 So because they're not creating an entirely new genre of music every decade means they're not innovative? How do you know they're not making new strides in the world of photography, or painting, or sculpting, or dance, or any other kind of art that is less commercial than music? That was my whole point. I live and breath artistic designy stuff in general and there's nothing new coming out these days in the city. It's kind of sad. And I do agree: nothing new in music = cultural slump = no innovation.
TheZebra Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 So because they're not creating an entirely new genre of music every decade means they're not innovative? How do you know they're not making new strides in the world of photography, or painting, or sculpting, or dance, or any other kind of art that is less commercial than music? I'm pretty sure I remember learning that a major movement in jazz started in NYC that revolutionized it. Think it was in the 50s? Anyways... NYC is awesome. I'd live there in a heartbeat if not faster. I also don't see how it's not cultured. I used to go up there every month and I always met the most diverse bunch of people from all walks of life. Plus, it's one of the only cities that literally has something for everyone. You like Indian food? Plenty of places. You like Italian food? Plenty of places. You like jazz? Hip Hop? Rock? You get the idea. 1
Author Keenly Posted January 24, 2013 Author Posted January 24, 2013 I can testify that a lot of people in san francisco smell bad. Maybe it was just because I went on 420
MrCastle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 That was my whole point. I live and breath artistic designy stuff in general and there's nothing new coming out these days in the city. It's kind of sad. And I do agree: nothing new in music = cultural slump = no innovation. Then the world as a whole is in a cultural slump because I'm not seeing anything interesting on the musical horizon, indie or commercial, from any region on earth that is tickling my fancy at the moment. I'm a media major at my school and am involved heavily in the arts. I'm part of several artistic avenues (creative writing, acting, among some other things), and I feel there is no better place to be than New York. If I want to make it in the world, find an occupation relating to one of my artistic talents, I'm not leaving this city. This is where you need to be.
Alma Mobley Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 My whole point asking about SF is that I feel people who are game changers and into subcultures (where I believe real innovation comes from) keep telling me that SF has more of that culture. As I said I don't know and that's why I asked OP. Well, SF has changed a lot in the last ten years (or more, I have only lived here 11 or so years), esp with the recession and housing and rent continuing to rise. There was a cover story a few months ago on the SFBG (I think) asking if Oakland is now "cooler."
edgygirl Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Well if we're going by what we can measure, San Fran is not. New York is still the top dog in this country. Again, by what's concrete. We can't get into the minds of individuals and measure who is truly cultured/open minded/creative and who's a poser. But we can measure the amount of places specifically made for the performing arts/other kinds of arts. We can measure the amount of nightclubs the city has. We can measure how many different ethnicities and religions populate the region. By those measures, New York is the top dog. What you're saying sounds more of an "in my day" kind of rant where things are not what they used to be. Don't take that as an insult or a slight about age in anyway. I get that way too when I say music sucks nowadays and teenagers overhear me and say music now is better than it was in the 90s when I was coming up. It's a generational/opinionated argument on your side. I'm giving you actual data that shows New York is very much the cultural destination it is widely perceived to be. Fair enough and I do agree. I'm ignorant about SF and hence I came here asking. (My ex who's native NY-er tried to convince me to move there with the argument that subcultures in sanfran and people were more interesting). There's no in my day in ny for me as I moved there last decade. I just compare it to innovative cultures I've been around and it doesn't feel innovative to me. I think in a way you're failing to see what's behind the statistics and what meets the eye. There's a layer out there that hinders innovation in this city these days. It is not generational as i.e. I super appreciate certain electronic music that say, came out this year and no one heard about yet. But I do understand your arguments and yes, they are valid.
Woggle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I know this is going to sound like Blasphemy but I had the best Italian food in my life after I moved to New Jersey. The places around where I live are just awesome. I just hope Sandy didn't knock most of them out of business. New York has culture on the surface but most of it these days is a gentrified and touristy kind of culture. It's not authentic. I can't even explain but those of us who grew up in the New York from a decade ago or earlier know what I am talking about. 1
edgygirl Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Well, SF has changed a lot in the last ten years (or more, I have only lived here 11 or so years), esp with the recession and housing and rent continuing to rise. There was a cover story a few months ago on the SFBG (I think) asking if Oakland is now "cooler." Yes! All the people I know apparently live or have lived in Oakland lol. 1
MrCastle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I'm pretty sure I remember learning that a major movement in jazz started in NYC that revolutionized it. Think it was in the 50s? Anyways... NYC is awesome. I'd live there in a heartbeat if not faster. I also don't see how it's not cultured. I used to go up there every month and I always met the most diverse bunch of people from all walks of life. Plus, it's one of the only cities that literally has something for everyone. You like Indian food? Plenty of places. You like Italian food? Plenty of places. You like jazz? Hip Hop? Rock? You get the idea. Exactly. People are accepting of all kinds of people. We don't blink an eye. The other day I saw a 200 lb black guy that looked like he could play linebacker for the Giants, in a ballerina outfit, walking down the street. You can't make this up. No one said anything, no one even gave him a second look. New Yorkers have seen it all, been through it all. Every race is represented here and accepted. So, not only do we have the most art galleries, museums, etc in the country, but we're also racially diverse. Heck, most of my dating success comes from the city. (Trying to steer the topic back to where it was, dating). For a hispanic man like me to find a date where I live (heavily italian), is like pulling teeth. When I'm in the city, I can get any girl. Asian, white, hispanic, black, mixed, older, younger, taller, shorter, whatever. Again, if you're a liberal, this is where you want to live.
Woggle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I recently was in San Francisco because my in laws live out west and we were staying with them for the holidays. I quite liked it. 1
MrCastle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I think in a way you're failing to see what's behind the statistics and what meets the eye. Right but again, that's your personal opinion. We can't really go back and forth with opinion, because here we have someone (you) who thinks the city is losing its culture, and someone else (me) who sees it as the destination for anything arts related. So we need something to quantify, something concrete, which is why I provided the link I did. The rest is really up to individual opinion, but you can't say New York isn't cultured, factually, it is. It is the most cultured city in America. Again, by what we can measure concretely.
Author Keenly Posted January 24, 2013 Author Posted January 24, 2013 To the OP.... Come on, dude....seriously. You let one silly little girl break you? Change your tampon, move on from her and find another one. One of her friends would be my suggestion. First of all, no need to be an ass. Secondly, it's not the one girl that makes me feel this way, you misunderstand. It's more like I become girl repellant around girls I actually like, and fricken casa nova around women I want nothing to do with romantically.
edgygirl Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 I know this is going to sound like Blasphemy but I had the best Italian food in my life after I moved to New Jersey. The places around where I live are just awesome. I just hope Sandy didn't knock most of them out of business. New York has culture on the surface but most of it these days is a gentrified and touristy kind of culture. It's not authentic. I can't even explain but those of us who grew up in the New York from a decade ago or earlier know what I am talking about. Man! I am SO embarrassed by Italian restaurants in NY don't even get me started on that. Please give the address of this one in NJ lol. See that's what I'm talking about. Whenever I'm in little Italy I keep thinking "what a loss of potential for the city", of revenue, of tourists going home saying this was an amazing place to have Italian outside Italy. Why doesn't mayor or business's men remodel that whole ****ty place and bring real restaurateurs to open places there? Ugh! The food there is revolting! Tell me about no soul! Great example. It's all a facade.
MrCastle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Man! I am SO embarrassed by Italian restaurants in NY don't even get me started on that. Please give the address of this one in NJ lol. See that's what I'm talking about. Whenever I'm in little Italy I keep thinking "what a loss of potential for the city", of revenue, of tourists going home saying this was an amazing place to have Italian outside Italy. Why doesn't mayor or business's men remodel that whole ****ty place and bring real restaurateurs to open places there? Ugh! The food there is revolting! Tell me about no soul! Great example. It's all a facade. You do know, little italy isn't the only place to get italian food? I feel like some of your posts are that of a tourist. The Bronx has some great italian restaurants, as does lower Manhattan. Places that, if you're not from here, you wouldn't know. I feel like you only know of the big tourist attractions of the city and not the stuff underneath it where real New Yorkers go.
Woggle Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Man! I am SO embarrassed by Italian restaurants in NY don't even get me started on that. Please give the address of this one in NJ lol. See that's what I'm talking about. Whenever I'm in little Italy I keep thinking "what a loss of potential for the city", of revenue, of tourists going home saying this was an amazing place to have Italian outside Italy. Why doesn't mayor or business's men remodel that whole ****ty place and bring real restaurateurs to open places there? Ugh! The food there is revolting! Tell me about no soul! Great example. It's all a facade. It used to be great but not anymore. Umberto's in Little Italy is still good though and Greys Papaya is still a great spot for cheap hot dogs. If you ever in NJ go to a place in Tom's River called Rivoli's and right next to it is a place called the Hot Tomato. Both great places. 1
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