Cheating, Revenge, kids and divorce

[George5016]

I apologize for the size of this post, but I would greatly appreciate anyone taking the time to read and offering advice or opinions.

 

Ok so I have created a nightmare out of a once fantastic marriage and I need more perspective.

 

I recently found out my wife cheated on me before marriage, lied about her sexual history overall, and has likely been cheating or at least making it appear so. I reacted and made things worse.

 

BACKGROUND

 

Im 40 now wife is 37.

We grew up in a small town and started dating when she was 15 and I was 17 or 18. With the exception of a couple week spats here and there we dated all the way through high school, went to the same college, and I went to grad school elsewhere, but we stayed together.

 

We meshed perfectly, were serious from the start, and always plan to marry and have a family. One of those couples...

 

Naturally starting at that age, previous sex life was very limited. She was a virgin when we began, I was her first, she was my third. I was from a strict family and it was a small town. The fact that I was her only was brought up to me time and time again by her, how special etc etc. When I tried to end it a couple of times due to varlous reasons, she would bring it up. Whenever she did something wrong or another guy /cheating seemed to be in play she would play that card to the nines. She "couldn't imagine" being with another man blah blah. Whenever she stayed out without calling in school and various other times. You know I would never risk that .....she would say. I believed her. She was the most honest, worthy person i had ever met.

 

I tried to break up in grad school and college because at different times I wanted to explore and was not sure I wanted to marry her and I REFUSED TO BE A CHEATER. I just did. I never could though. Frankly the one and only thing got to me, and I did love her dearly. Full disclosure, I had a couple of drunk kissing incidences in school I told her about and were on the table. Nothing more. I avoided cheating by partying with my friends and including her, and studying.

 

Anyway. we get married, have 3 kids, great life. Then (about 3 years ago) she takes a job where she has to travel some. Before that we were as close to the perfect family and partnership as you could get. We had sort of unspoken rules about behavior and boundaries. Never a problem. I never checked her phone or worried about her and I busted my tail not to give her a reason to worry. I didnt party without her, and avoided bad situations like the plague. We are both not bad to look at, so there were temptations, but we managed it without issue.

 

EVIDENCE

 

WIth the traveling job, she starts to change. All the usual, clothes, hair, breasts, attitude. Boundaries. All of it. Overheard her talking to her male coworker/boss once and was kind of floored. Cutesy banter that did not sound like her at all. Started meeting him for lunch all the time, even when they were working at different accounts. I finally check her phone and find what I thought were very flirtly texts. He had little nicknames for her car, constant joking and smileys and updates about their days. Wine and suchi lunches, some dinners, etc. He teased her about other men at other accounts, calling them her boyfriend or her boytoys, etc. Made me sick. It was just not her at all and she would FLIP if is was evenly constantly texting a woman like that. She would tell me this guys just acts that way and he is married and a christian guy and its fine.

 

I wont go into any more details but long story short, she starts lying, erasing text messages and getting drunk on these trips to Calfornia resorts for training. Again, we have 3 young kids at home, not like her. I find teenager style flirting with another guy via text that she was in class with all week. She would always tell me she was going to dinner with "the girls" and yet he was always there(usually found out by hearing voices or she was drunk and would slip up talking about her night. Next trip same crap. IN fact, as soon as the wheels touch the ground her first text is to mr flirty asking where he is. I confront her and she acts like Im crazy. Its not flirting, etc she says. Just joking, and she cant help what other people text her. Then she starts erasing the messages. The time stamping proved and she still lied. Not just messages from guys but from her female party friends as well.

 

After a year of this and her withdrawing more I got very depressed, went on meds and started a midlife. Our whole marriage was crap now. Everything from her was angry and cold. I withdrew from her too. I announce to her on the day after Thanksgiving after she texts her co-worker 7 times in row while we were shopping that if she cant leave him alone for a few hours over thanksgiving then I am going to find someone to fill my time and have fun with too.

 

I decided that I would start flirting and going out. I was too weak to ever really check up on her or hire or PI or something. I regret that very much. I was just too proud. Anyway I have a beautiful younger (28) girl that works in my office building. I had spoken with her before briefly, and me being me, I had avoided her like the plague for a year because its just how I deal with temptations. So now i decide to I strike up some conversations. Talk a lot. We organize some office outings, harmless bowling and a few beers I tell myself. Just to make her jeolous. We start texting, harmless at first, then very jokey. I text in front of my wife. She starts getting annoyed. The fighting starts on her end now.

 

We argue and I demand she admit erasing the messages and explain her flirting and talk about why she thought it was acceptable NOW in our marriage to go out and get ripped every night after flirting all day with a bunch of guys(then they all go to their side by side separate hotel rooms-ya right). She blows me off and just attacks my texting. Shortly thereafter she has to go to a hotel for meeting only an hour away that one her nice looking male co-workers must attend as well. She never used to do this for this account because its close. She has to rush out the door all of suddden about 6 because she is starving and wants to grab a Chick Fil A. Naturally, what happens is that she bumps into this guy checking and they have to have dinner and drinks (just them) because she does not want to be rude.

 

Crap hits the fan on another trip to Cali. I plan an office outing for one of the nights she is gone. I am going to go out with my office crew and have drinks and play pool. She is out every night in cali anyway. I did tell her I was sending the kids to grandmas for the night as the painters were coming over early,(which was true). So we go out and for the first time in several years I agree to take some shots. Bad idea. End result is that the last ones left are me and my pretty friend and drunkedly decide to take a cab to strip club as it was still open and seemed kind of funny. Obviously, it was absurd to do and way innapropriate but I really didnt care at the moment and was trashed. She called me several times that night and of course I did not answer. She had started to check up on me a lot since I started texting this girl and told her what i told her. I ended up not remembering much, but I got a cab home around 4 at least. No sex or making out really, but I remember rubbing her leg and we are hanging on each other.

 

She gets home a couple days later. I check her phone again and dozens of erased messages. I dont say a word. Now I suck at hiding things so I leave a receipt in my pocket evidencing my night out. She flips. Kids are away and she flips and we start arguing. We are drinking wine and agruing as well. Now I dont believe a word she has ever said. I am skilled getting information, so lets just say with the threat of lie detectors and bluffs about evidence I find out the following regarding times I had suspected her of cheating in the past:

 

a. She has lied to me for 20 years about me being her only. She slept with a friend of mine in high school. Totally sober, not even on a date. Just went over to his house and had sex. Several people told me about back then but I confronted her and believed her. We hung out him with him and his wife many times up until last year and I found out he would joke about it whenever I would leave the room.(and his wife was not there of course)

 

b. She set up the dinner date at the close hotel ahead of time and she asked him.

 

c. She was cheating on me while we were shopping for an engagement ring. After weeks of questioning and 20 different versions of the truth, she admitted having a guy in college as soon as I went to grad school. That spring, while it was hot and heavy, we were picking out rings. She swears no sex but based upon a mix of my bluff and real info she admits making out a few times and being in his room at 3am alone after partying. He just passed out though and would not wake up according to her. This admission came as a result of me getting info from one of her roommates at the time. boyfriend (my friend) might believe she slept without him without actually calling anyone a liar. It fit the evidence. She says he had a girlfriend so it limited their time together. I was really starting to hate her for the lies and betrayals.

 

d. She denies any affairs or messing around since our marriage, but admits to erasing messages because she says she did not want me to worry and with the girls it was about them being drunk and messing around with men(which she would tell me about sometimes) and she did not want me to think less of her female friends or that she was involved.

 

e. She admits that she asked that guy out for dinner at the local hotel, but just because she needed some "adult conversation" without the kids.

 

RESULT

 

So, lets just say I went crazy at this point. I left home and got a hotel on the night of the revelations. I went back, but lets just say I proceeded to go an self destructive binge for a few weeks. My office friend situation was pushed up a few notches. My wife knows. She wants to work it out. I dont want to leave my kids( in the broken home sense), I dont want to cause/be divorced. I still have feelings for my wife but I will never trust her again and I have now acted badly as well.

 

Over the course of a few months, she played the victim and told her family and friends about the things I had done but left out here own conduct. Her family hates me now and I cant bring myself to tell them about her. I am a very private person and hate these games.

 

The hardest parts are the betrayals, and I admittedly had her on a pedestal, but she put herself their too. I know its silly to some to care about whether or not your wife ever had sex with someone else before you were married, I dont blame her for making a mistake as a kid, but its a bad lie to tell going into a marriage and it truly became a nice thought and was something special about us. The later cheating was worse because it was regular and just plain messed up. Who gets engaged while they have a "f" buddy. Sometimes I try to believe her about the no sex and give her the benefit of the "exploring" story and stuff, but I truly dont believe her and it hurts.

 

One final thing is that all of these admissions had to be dragged out, and her story changed dozens of times as I pointed out flaws. She admitted only what she had to if she was claiming to tell the truth. Never once did she tell me anything she did not have to or say anything voluntarily.

 

QUESTIONS.

1. Am i crazy for caring or breaking up a marriage for past betrayals so long ago? This assumes she has not been cheating on the trips and I honestly have no idea and never will.

 

2. How does my own fall from grace so to speak play into it. I did it out of revenge mostly but I did it nonetheless.

 

3. Am I just being crazy jeolous and obsessing?

 

4. Any other helpful or constructive input becuase I am at a loss.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this and sharing any sincere helpful thoughts.

[Mr. Lucky]

4. Any other helpful or constructive input becuase I am at a loss.

You guys are the poster children for MC and the fact that neither of you have suggested it or demanded it be done though years of disconnection makes me question both your commitment to the marriage.

 

Together you've proven that two wrongs don't come close to a right and you both have issues with the boundaries that, out of respect for each other, functioning couples observe.

 

Your best chance is to get into a structured conversation about trust, communication and commitment with a qualified therapist. Or I guess you could both continue to rationalize that the acting out on both your parts is going to somehow fix your marriage...

 

Mr. Lucky

[standtall]

George..first, that is a very well written post. It is nice to read something with punctuation and complete sentences.

 

 

 

QUESTIONS.

1. Am i crazy for caring or breaking up a marriage for past betrayals so long ago? This assumes she has not been cheating on the trips and I honestly have no idea and never will.

 

2. How does my own fall from grace so to speak play into it. I did it out of revenge mostly but I did it nonetheless.

 

3. Am I just being crazy jeolous and obsessing?

 

4. Any other helpful or constructive input becuase I am at a loss.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this and sharing any sincere helpful thoughts.

 

1. Yes, if you would be overreacting by breaking a marriage over 20+ year ago betrayals since you were not married at the time and we all explore and make youthful mistakes...if she is not currently cheating, and that is a big if.

 

2. Your vengeful/jealousy invoking behavior often generates unpredictable and uncontrollable results. No matter what she does, do not cheat nor break your marriage vows. Be the better person and take the high road.

 

3. There is a good chance that she is already in an EA with the OM, which is worse IMHO, and most likely a PA as well. You must find this out, then decide what you want to do about it.

[George5016]

Thanks for responses.

 

I deserve some crap for my choices, I understand that. The revenge thing was more to make her listen and feel things for a change instead of blowing me off.

 

Counseling has been on and off. It was messed up to begin with because she lied so much early on.

 

The thing is I feel like I will never be confident in anything she says now. THats just hard to take, but I am thinking of sticking it out for the children and trying to care less until we can connect somehow.

[Mr. Lucky]

Counseling has been on and off. It was messed up to begin with because she lied so much early on.

 

Time to turn it back on. You need help.

 

 

The thing is I feel like I will never be confident in anything she says now.

 

Your marriage is a two-burner stove - you're both gaslighting each other. That is unless you told your wife all the details regarding this:

 

" End result is that the last ones left are me and my pretty friend and drunkedly decide to take a cab to strip club as it was still open and seemed kind of funny. Obviously, it was absurd to do and way innapropriate but I really didnt care at the moment and was trashed. ... I ended up not remembering much, but I got a cab home around 4 at least. No sex or making out really, but I remember rubbing her leg and we are hanging on each other. "

 

Put your own house in order first. Your anger at her misconduct is misplaced if you're doing the same thing, another issue that should be explored in counseling...

 

Mr. Lucky

Edited January 24, 2013 by Mr. Lucky

[aed]

1. Am i crazy for caring or breaking up a marriage for past betrayals so long ago? This assumes she has not been cheating on the trips and I honestly have no idea and never will.

 

2. How does my own fall from grace so to speak play into it. I did it out of revenge mostly but I did it nonetheless.

 

3. Am I just being crazy jeolous and obsessing?

 

4. Any other helpful or constructive input becuase I am at a loss.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this and sharing any sincere helpful thoughts.

 

First you ****ed it up for yourself when you went on a revenge affaire!

 

1)

 

no you are not wrong and 99% she has cheated, she cheated on you when you where being each other engagement rings, if she can be unfaithfull then, she can it almost everytime she wants. Deleted messages are not something she does for nothing.

 

2)

 

Yes you did. But making the decison of divorce is something you should have done before you went on your revenge streak. Also her manipulative behaviour is just the easy way out for her. She knows what she did (and I am almost positive she did more then you know), but now, you cant get her to come clean because: you are the bad guy at the moment (for her and her parents), Even when you fill for divorce.

 

3)

No. absolutly not. You know she cheated, she didn't come clean. You needed evidence. Then a later in the marriage you find behavour that points out of an other affair. You are not obsessive jealous.

 

 

I don't think she will ever admit to the affair on the trips. Especially now that you had an revenge affair. She will play the victim-part and will always be playing that role to the outside world.

 

 

 

 

Making the decision for divorce for an affair what happend x years ago. Is imo something you only can do when you feel true inner strenght. And you won't accept anyone to walk over your personal boundaries. When your personal friend would betray you in the same amount. Would he still be your best friend?

 

99-year-old-man-divorces-wife-77-years-discovering-affair-60-years-ago.html

[Yasuandio]

QUESTIONS.

1. Am i crazy for caring or breaking up a marriage for past betrayals so long ago? This assumes she has not been cheating on the trips and I honestly have no idea and never will.

 

2. How does my own fall from grace so to speak play into it. I did it out of revenge mostly but I did it nonetheless.

 

3. Am I just being crazy jeolous and obsessing?

 

4. Any other helpful or constructive input becuase I am at a loss.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this and sharing any sincere helpful thoughts.

 

Dear George,

 

You are obviously a highly educated, and articulate man. You have received outstanding advice thus far on your thread. I will add just a few tips from my own experience.

 

You are 40, married for twenty years, that means you were only 20 when you got married. Your wife of 37 was only 17 when she married you if my math is correct. The most obvious issue here, IMO, is you guys got married too young. That aside, whatever she did or you did prior to the marriage is water under the bridge by now. It doesn't matter when or how you found out whatever, it is really dumb to put a 20 year marriage on the line for pre-marital teenage sexual experimentation (which is only what it could have been). For God's sake, get real, on this matter. If you are really serious about making this a marital issue at the 20 year point in your marriage, then my guess is your looking for excuses to (a) carry on your own misconduct, (b) get out of the marriage.

 

As for your wife's current cellphone and texting behaviors - sounds VERY fishy. As do the arrangements at the hotel for dinners, and the business travel. Although, as you freely admit, you are very good at cross-examination, or, more gently stated, getting information.

 

Two questions for you to consider:

 

1. Is it possible that the pressure of constantly questioning your wife of past events prior to the marriage; as well as invading her privacy (searching her phone/records), demanding explanations, and questioning current events, may be pushing your wife away?

 

2. Is it possible that you actually are engaging in maritally-destructive behavior because you yourself no longer want to be married? Do you feel trapped in the marriage? Could this whole situation really be about your own issues?

 

My instincts, for what they are worth are telling me that you are an active participant in all the issues raised in this post. That is just my gut speaking, George.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, one suggestion. I remember a time when MY behavior at home was not becoming. It had nothing to do with any other men outside my husband. It was a general attitude problem. I was teaching in the University, and I really did not appreciate my husband's attitude to my friends, he was hostile when my friends or colleagues came to visit. I was also have some legal problems at the time as well, I needed my friends for support. So, I dished it back to him 10-fold, and acted like I didn't give a flip about him. I over-shopped, I didn't care. Like a big passive-aggressive bitch.

 

One day my girlfriend-colleage was at the house, she was not intimidated by him. We were watching a vampire movie together. I asked me something. I just blew him off. He asked again, I just turned the volume up really high. He walked out of the house and broke a big sewing table outside - busted it in pieces. We finished watching the movie, laughing. Then I went to her house - spent the night. Came home the next day like nothing happened.

 

Here is the lesson for you. My behaviour was inappropriate (like your wife's.) When I got home that morning. he was waiting for me. His whole demeanor had changed. He was not the same old pis't off, angry, hostile jerk he usually was - that I could justify myself walking away from. HE WAS VERY CALM, AND RATIONAL (totally unlike him). This took me by surprise. I usually delt with people like this in my profession as a professor at the University - never at home.

 

He basically told me the following in one simple, believable, statement: If I don't turn it around, we are going to be facing a SERIOUS marital problem. (There was a look of pain or hurt on his face). He didn't use those exact words. But, I got the message - real clear. The message was so clear, I knew I needed to drop my friendship for awhile and work on my marriage, as we were in a bad cycle. [i recall my therapist recommending a book about that time, I think it was called "[u]The Dance of Anger[/u]."

 

Is it possible that you and your wife are in a Dance of Anger? I told you this story, because, it may be time for you to simply sit down with your wife, and say something similar (without accusation, history, or drama). What do you think? I hope these ideas help you, Good luck, Yas

Edited January 24, 2013 by Yasuandio

[George5016]

Thanks much to all who have responded. A lot to think about. I would like to address some things specifically.

 

We married when I was 29 and she was 26, we started seeing each other as kids, when i was 17 and 18, so my year rounding was not accurate.

 

YAS thoughts.

 

Yes we are in some sort of dance of anger but I probably more angry than her. I did do say something similar to what you husband told you I mention in the initial post, but it may have been more threatening.

 

Your example was very helpful, and I do want to address you questions.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

1. Is it possible that the pressure of constantly questioning your wife of past events prior to the marriage; as well as invading her privacy (searching her phone/records), demanding explanations, and questioning current events, may be pushing your wife away?

 

Thats the thing. I never questioned it. I accepted what she said on faith many, many times. Sure when crap would happen I would ask questions, but I would always accept her word and let it go. For example, during the engagement period when she was cheating i was in grad school and she was in her last year in college(i took 5 years), all of a sudden she changed. In the past when she or I would go out we would always call around 2 or 3 am just say goodnight and Im home safe and stuff. When she stopped, I questioned and she got defensive. Later I visited unexpectedly and a guy had sent her roses and they were sitting on the counter in her apt. I questioned her, she said it was her gay friend and was belated birthday. I was suspicious but eventually accepted it. When a casual friend in college(who had not graduated) told me he thought he saw her kissing all over some guy at a party, I chose to believe her lies. He had only met her once or twice and was drunk. I believed she would not do that to me, or at least would come clean about a mistake.

 

People have told me stuff and she has done things over the years that anyone would question. She would ALWAYS sell me and tell me that I should believe her because she has only been with me and that was so special to her that she would never throw it away. I always believed her.

I only started questioning her when the texting and trip bs was happening and she refused to concede what was right in front of my face. Almost like she was irrational or crazy. All of sudden things that would have been terribly innappropriate in our relationship were fine now. She would lie when we both knew she was lying and would not blink. I started to wonder if she was a sociopath.

I think any other person would have hired a PI or called her hotel room late at night on these trips to see if she was there but I would not even do that. Maybe out of pride or willful blindness. Dont know.

 

I only started checking her phone after I heard her and co/worker boss (whom she was spending a ton of extra time with and texting/talking on weekends and at night) in a conversation in the next room and she was giggling like she was 15 and making dirty jokes and acting like she was drunk. I did not want to look but at some point you have a right to in a marriage.

 

I think your point has merit in one sense, and that is that I have always believed she held herself out as too perfect, and I have told her that. I have confessed a few things to her over the years about attractions or flirting, and she would maintain that nobody had ever flirted or hit on her, ever, even on these trips. It was kind of maddening.

 

2. Is it possible that you actually are engaging in maritally-destructive behavior because you yourself no longer want to be married? Do you feel trapped in the marriage? Could this whole situation really be about your own issues?

 

My instincts, for what they are worth are telling me that you are an active participant in all the issues raised in this post. That is just my gut speaking, George.

 

Both parties are always somewhat responsible for crap in a marriage. Did I unknowingly want to torpedo mine? No, not at first at all. When she started acting out as I was content and happy. Three kids, good career, lovely wife whom I trusted and treated me with respect and loved me. We had truly been without drama since before our first child 11 years ago. We spent all of our time together as a family for the most part. Healthy, friends, family, all that.

I think she got a new job that was exciting and put her in new, unnaccountable situations with attractive and powerful men that started giving her new attention. Then she got wrapped up in it and forgot about who she was and basically decided she was going to have some fun and I was not going to get in her way.

 

I am just floored that my wife was capable of so much deception and feel ultra manipulated. Down deep I probably blame her for what I did, which I hate myself for. She was so darn stubborn, lying to 3 counselors for months and having to change her story 10 different times to me and the counselor. I lied too at first about what I did, but I came clean, and all at once. Her, piece by piece admissions, as limited and self serving as they were, only came when she was backed into a corner of contradictions and evidence.

 

A little example, she argues for 3 weeks that I am crazy about her lying about her activities on her trips(erasing text messages (over 100 in the course of one 7 day trip), and when pressed by counselor she promises to bring in her phone records to prove it. Then she secretly requests a new phone, different phone, adding her middle name to the account, closing her online access to her records, throws away her old phones sim card, and reports back two weeks later that the she no longer has online access and the company wont produce them without a subpoena. Oh well.

 

Luckily I forwarded a few that I found on one of our blow ups when she returned and saved them, so I physically proved a handful(using the timestamps). She then admits that she erased a few to keep me from getting jeolous and to keep her female friends from looking like whores. She is not sorry or apologetic about lying so forcefully for weeks to me or the counselor.

 

Instead of ever just coming clean she acts like that. Obstinate to the end, to the point its driving me crazy.

 

I dont expect her to be faultless, and I think we could past all this if she would just come clean a little on her own and stop. I would probably believe her and accept things if she would just admit that she erased messages because she was flirting and being innaproppriate, or partying and maybe engaged in any level of innapropriate behavior on these trips and hiding it. Maybe it was just flirting. Maybe she was hooking up in hotel rooms. Maybe she had too much to drink and made a mistake one night and she keeps talking to the guy. Maybe its a torrid affair. I dont know. (Any one or all of these things I could possibly deal with).But what she gives me absolutely nothing which she knows is driving me crazy.

 

She just wont and now is using my "coming clean" against me and belittling any issues I have in the past when she is the one who always made the big deal about it.

 

I think its cruel to go into marriage with such a big lie, especially when she touted and used it as "get out of jail free card" so many times over so many years. It may seem silly to to many but when its there and something special about us that is represented over and over again it becomes important. She used it effectively many times. I think it also takes a pretty cruddy individual to cheat with one guy while you are picking out rings with your childhood sweetheart. Everyone thinks she is such a perfect angel, and I did too.

 

I just dont know her anymore. If she would just admit it was terribly wrong and tell me something believable about what she did, things may be different.

_______________________________________________________________s

_________________________________________________________________

[aMguilts]

hi george

 

" just dont know her anymore. If she would just admit it was terribly wrong and tell me something believable about what she did, things may be different."

 

would they?

Would you believe her even if she admitted all?

 

Maybe it`s just me, but this relationship isn`t going ANYWHERE.

Neither of you has ANY respect for the other?

 

George

Give me something positive about your wife.

Just 1, that you know for a fact

aM

Edited January 25, 2013 by aMguilts
double negative in my grammar :S

[Yasuandio]

 

We married when I was 29 and she was 26, we started seeing each other as kids, when i was 17 and 18, so my year rounding was not accurate.

 

YAS thoughts.

 

Yes we are in some sort of dance of anger but I probably more angry than her. I did do say something similar to what you husband told you I mention in the initial post, but it may have been more threatening.

 

 

OK, You guys are in the Dance of Anger. Do you want to stay in it? Certainly not. If you broach the topic of wife's problematic behavior's (post-marriage, that is), you are a smart man, how do you think a "more threatening" position works at the bargaining table?

 

In example I provided you, hostility, anger, throwing objects had no effect in getting my attention. Nor would have a "more threatening" position. What got my attention was a clear, concise statement of fact, with an honest facial espression of emotion (pain, concern, and seriousness). There was absolutely no threat in the statement, but, somehow, I knew if I did not cease in my disrespectul behavior (even though it was justifiable payback, in my mind), I was about to lose something, - e.g., consequences were implied. This show-down may not be unlike dealing with a child.

 

You will have to market this position better than you described, so your wife will buy it.

 

Your example was very helpful, and I do want to address you questions.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

1. Is it possible that the pressure of constantly questioning your wife of past events prior to the marriage; as well as invading her privacy (searching her phone/records), demanding explanations, and questioning current events, may be pushing your wife away?

 

Thats the thing. I never questioned it. I accepted what she said on faith many, many times. Sure when crap would happen I would ask questions, but I would always accept her word and let it go.

 

You would ask questions, but always accept her word and let it go, really? Have you really let it go?

 

For example, during the engagement period when she was cheating i was in grad school and she was in her last year in college(i took 5 years), all of a sudden she changed.

 

How many years since the engagement period andf you are still talking about her cheating before she married you? Would 20 years be a fair estimate? Now think about that. When is the last time you mentioned that event to her? If you have mentioned it at anytime during the marriage, that is one time too many. Truthfully, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU BROUGHT THIS UP TO YOUR WIFE? ____ x Times.

 

Now, tell me, how many times have you thought about it, and obsessed about sex she had before the marriage, while she was dating or engaged to you? ____ x Times.

 

On a scale of 1 to 10, how serious a breach was this to your relationship prior to your marriage? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

 

If it was a very serious breech, why did you go on and get married?

 

In the past when she or I would go out we would always call around 2 or 3 am just say goodnight and Im home safe and stuff. When she stopped, I questioned and she got defensive.

 

When young single people are in the habit of going out till late hours, 2 and 3am, and one of them forgets to call the other, it is no big deal. If you can actually remember this 20 years after you've been married - perhaps they may be some obsessing going on.

 

One thing is for sure - it appears a pattern of "questioning" was established early on. When you question a person, when you try to pry information through cross-examination, what do you expect? All people will show some defensiveness.

 

 

Later I visited unexpectedly and a guy had sent her roses and they were sitting on the counter in her apt. I questioned her, she said it was her gay friend and was belated birthday. I was suspicious but eventually accepted it.

 

Again, "Questioning." Is there a law against a woman receiving flowers?

 

When a casual friend in college(who had not graduated) told me he thought he saw her kissing all over some guy at a party, I chose to believe her lies. He had only met her once or twice and was drunk. I believed she would not do that to me, or at least would come clean about a mistake.

 

Lets say you chose to believe her lies. Then, it was your choice to live with the outcome. If the outcome is that she does not come clean about a mistake, that has nothing to do with your choice to believe her lies. If anything, your belief in her lies seems suspect, as if that were a test to see if she would come clean. When she didn't, then you could find fault with her, and also wallow in self-pity for believing her against your better judgment.

 

(Oh, dear, are we out of grad school yet?)

 

People have told me stuff and she has done things over the years that anyone would question. She would ALWAYS sell me and tell me that I should believe her because she has only been with me and that was so special to her that she would never throw it away.

 

Why do you think she had to convince you to believe in her?

 

I always believed her.

 

Really? See above.

 

I only started questioning her when the texting and trip bs was happening and she refused to concede what was right in front of my face.

 

Fast forward, you have married this person. You only started questioning her what???????

 

Almost like she was irrational or crazy. All of sudden things that would have been terribly innappropriate in our relationship were fine now. She would lie when we both knew she was lying and would not blink. I started to wonder if she was a sociopath.

 

So, her behaviour has become perplexing, and she is refusing to give you the blow by blow details, that is, "she refuses to concede." Concede to what? To your interpretation of the events, as you imagine them?

 

Enter Mental Illness diagnosis 101. This must mean she is "irrational, crazy, and a sociopath."

 

I think any other person would have hired a PI or called her hotel room late at night on these trips to see if she was there but I would not even do that. Maybe out of pride or willful blindness. Dont know.

 

Yeah, sure, why have evidence to back up your claims when you can just make assumptions and jump to conclusions? That's much more rational, sane, and anti-sociopathic, right?

 

I only started checking her phone after I heard her and co/worker boss (whom she was spending a ton of extra time with and texting/talking on weekends and at night) in a conversation in the next room and she was giggling like she was 15 and making dirty jokes and acting like she was drunk. I did not want to look but at some point you have a right to in a marriage.

 

I think your point has merit in one sense, and that is that I have always believed she held herself out as too perfect, and I have told her that. I have confessed a few things to her over the years about attractions or flirting, and she would maintain that nobody had ever flirted or hit on her, ever, even on these trips. It was kind of maddening.

 

Grandmother's flirt with their grandson's. Flirting is a fact of life. Flirting never ends. This is common sense.

 

Is it possible your "flirting confessions" were a set-up?

 

Why would she dare admit to you that someone was flirting with her? With the pattern you've established, you could lose your cool, and start questioning her till the cows come home. After seeing what you have wrttien herein, I can understand that NO ANSWER, is the best response to you in these matters. I also think is it possible that you are very jeolious and possessive, and you may have pushed your wife away.

 

2. Is it possible that you actually are engaging in maritally-destructive behavior because you yourself no longer want to be married? Do you feel trapped in the marriage? Could this whole situation really be about your own issues?

 

My instincts, for what they are worth are telling me that you are an active participant in all the issues raised in this post. That is just my gut speaking, George.

 

Both parties are always somewhat responsible for crap in a marriage. Did I unknowingly want to torpedo mine? No, not at first at all.

 

What does that mean? So now you do want a torpedo?

 

When she started acting out as I was content and happy. Three kids, good career, lovely wife whom I trusted and treated me with respect and loved me. We had truly been without drama since before our first child 11 years ago. We spent all of our time together as a family for the most part. Healthy, friends, family, all that.

 

Really? That's a good sign then. Perhaps you have just retrogressed. You are re-living the past, to avoid fixing some simple issues of the present?

 

I think she got a new job that was exciting and put her in new, unnaccountable situations with attractive and powerful men that started giving her new attention. Then she got wrapped up in it and forgot about who she was and basically decided she was going to have some fun and I was not going to get in her way.

 

Just because your wife has a new career that provides her independace, new surroundings, new friends and colleagues (including attractive, powerful men), and takes her away from the home on business does not automatically place in an unaccountable position. Why should she not enjoy this new life? Is it possible that you feel threatened by her new and exciting career?

 

I am just floored that my wife was capable of so much deception and feel ultra manipulated. Down deep I probably blame her for what I did, which I hate myself for. She was so darn stubborn, lying to 3 counselors for months and having to change her story 10 different times to me and the counselor. I lied too at first about what I did, but I came clean, and all at once. Her, piece by piece admissions, as limited and self serving as they were, only came when she was backed into a corner of contradictions and evidence.

 

(1) What happens when you play the "blame game?"

(2) What happens when you force a person into admissions to do not want to make?

(3) Just because you suddenly decide to be truthful doesn't mean the the other person feels it is safe to be open and honest.

(4) What happens when you force a wild animial into a corner?

(5) You cannot force a person to be open and honest in a MC office. They probably are not committed to the proces anyway, if info has to be dragged outta them.

 

A little example, she argues for 3 weeks that I am crazy about her lying about her activities on her trips(erasing text messages (over 100 in the course of one 7 day trip), and when pressed by counselor she promises to bring in her phone records to prove it. Then she secretly requests a new phone, different phone, adding her middle name to the account, closing her online access to her records, throws away her old phones sim card, and reports back two weeks later that the she no longer has online access and the company wont produce them without a subpoena. Oh well.

 

That should tell you something. It tells me that she is sick and tired of being questioned, accused, spied on, and watched over. Maybe she doesn't want her company involved in this serveillence either.

 

Luckily I forwarded a few that I found on one of our blow ups when she returned and saved them, so I physically proved a handful(using the timestamps).

 

So, what did you prove?

 

She then admits that she erased a few to keep me from getting jeolous and to keep her female friends from looking like whores. She is not sorry or apologetic about lying so forcefully for weeks to me or the counselor.

 

Why does she have to apologize for erasing information that is going to make you act jeolous? Is she damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't?

 

Instead of ever just coming clean she acts like that. Obstinate to the end, to the point its driving me crazy.

 

What is the worst thing that would happen if you just gave up your demands to know what is on her text/cell records? Just dropped the rope, just like that. What do you have to lose? What do you have to gain by letting go of this?

 

I dont expect her to be faultless, and I think we could past all this if she would just come clean a little on her own and stop. I would probably believe her and accept things if she would just admit that she erased messages because she was flirting and being innaproppriate, or partying and maybe engaged in any level of innapropriate behavior on these trips and hiding it. Maybe it was just flirting. Maybe she was hooking up in hotel rooms. Maybe she had too much to drink and made a mistake one night and she keeps talking to the guy. Maybe its a torrid affair. I dont know. (Any one or all of these things I could possibly deal with).But what she gives me absolutely nothing which she knows is driving me crazy.

 

In the above paragraph, you have used the word "MAYBE" at least 5 times is a discussion about your wife that involves everything from "flirting" to a "torid affair." I think the most important phrase in the paragraph is the one I bolded "I don't know." That's right. You do not know. And you are driving yourself crazy (quote, unquote). Everything you have written about your wife is speculation at best. If you do not get a grip - you are going to have a self fulfilling prophecy on your hands, that is if you don't already.

 

She just wont and now is using my "coming clean" against me and belittling any issues I have in the past when she is the one who always made the big deal about it.

 

I think its cruel to go into marriage with such a big lie, especially when she touted and used it as "get out of jail free card" so many times over so many years.

 

Now, that was 20 years ago, right?

 

It may seem silly to to many but when its there and something special about us that is represented over and over again it becomes important. She used it effectively many times. I think it also takes a pretty cruddy individual to cheat with one guy while you are picking out rings with your childhood sweetheart.

 

George, my man, let it go.

 

Everyone thinks she is such a perfect angel, and I did too.

 

It doesn't matter what other poeple think. And it doesn't matter what I think.

 

I just dont know her anymore. If she would just admit it was terribly wrong and tell me something believable about what she did, things may be different.

 

George, you are only going to believe what you want to believe.

_______________________________________________________________s

_________________________________________________________________

 

George,

 

I didn't mean to come off harsh. This is my style. You really opened up your heart. And, I obviously pointed out a few issues. I took a lot of time to respond, and everything I wrote was meant to help you and delivered in good-faith. I hope I did not hurt your feelings.

 

Something I also found interesting in studying this post. I do not recall you saying one positive thing about your wife. Nor do I recall any discussion of the children she gave you.

 

Manily - an obession about the past. And a sort of paranoia about being deceived. And of course it could be true, she very well may be deceiving you.

 

Well there is a lot to think about here. And I also want to see what other posters have to say. I am happy you found LS. And it takes a great man to open his heart and espress himself truthfully. I commend you on that. Best regards, Yas

[aMguilts]

george,

yas has taken a great deal of time to reply to you.

 

And , not in a `harsh` way

Yas has said to you a few things you need to address.

Not on here, but to yourself.

 

I wish you well

aM

[cheerfuldoer]

Just reading your posts, it seems like your wife has been walking a tightrope. You were suspicious of her and you chose to swallow your feelings and move forward. When you did that, you should have accepted that those incidents were done and left them in the past. You are pulling things that are over 20 years old out into the light to illustrate your story. That is not fair to your wife.

 

Your wife sounds like a successful, intelligent, well educated woman. I'm friends with women like your wife. I'll tell you this, the minute anyone's husband started acting the way you are, it would get ugly. There is no excuse for looking through her texts and questioning her on deleted texts, emails, whatever. She is an adult and you are her partner, not her parent, you have no "rights" to see her private correspondence.

Edited January 26, 2013 by cheerfuldoer
Typo

[imtooconfused]

Your wife sounds like a successful, intelligent, well educated woman. I'm friends with women like your wife. I'll tell you this, the minute anyone's husband started acting the way you are, it would get ugly. There is no excuse for looking through her texts and questioning her on deleted texts, emails, whatever. She is an adult and you are her partner, not her parent, you have no "rights" to see her private correspondence.

 

I have been watching this thread for a while and have held back for commenting for a while. I feel for George5016 since he seems to have discovered pretty clearly that his wife has not been truthful in many aspects of her life and almost certainly will never be completely truthful ever. And that is within the context of counseling sessions, not just from text messages. But cheerfuldoer seems to have identified my concern... that the OP has not acted in a constructive way that will lead to a positive change in behavior. There is no way the wife can be honest is such a threatful environment.

 

I am forced to come to the conclusion that the main barrier to this relationship is that someone who appears to be extremely open and honest in everything they do and who expects complete honesty in return is not a good match for someone who cannot be open and honest and continues to actively obscure and obfuscate the truth. The raw nerves must be completely frayed on both sides. A successful conclusion to this conflict may not be success in the long term.