Who's naive?

[chucksagent]

This is a message board...

 

Message boards are for opinions...

 

If you look at my first post, my intention and tone was polite and thoughtful...

 

Even two people I DIRECTLY contradicted, wrote that they AGREED with my assessment...

 

I'm not calling anyone NAIVE in a negative sense. Having a boring and sexless marriage IS a reg flag for POSSIBLE cheating.

 

No different than if your spouse kept his cell phone near him always and FACE DOWN...not questioning that is NAIVE.

 

If your spouse started acting weird when the phone ring and leaving the room to talk....not questioning that is NAIVE.

 

This whole "blind trust" thing is a solid notion. And in a utopia it might work. But in today's world, in reality, people lie...people deceive..there is nothing wrong with being cynical and watching your own back.

[BetrayedH]

Sometimes things are more complicated that what appears obvious to the casual observer. Someone cheated? I wonder if they had marital problems. Or maybe there were sex issues. We didn't miss these obvious things. Do I actually sound like a stupid person to you? We just kept digging deeper. What I find interesting is how many people came to the thread noting that there were few discernable marital problems and plenty of good sex that don't fit into the "common sense" theory. Hmm. I wonder if there might be more at play than just people ignoring their marriages. In many cases (most would be my bet), there is a lot more at play and the place to look isn't some lazy BS but within a broken WS. But that's just the clueless clown in me talking.

[bentnotbroken]

I saw numerous emails between my MM and his wife specifically addressing their non-existent sex life.

 

As much as you want to say all the BS's on this board had healthy sex lives and still got cheated on, there are plenty of sexless marriages. Again, not saying that justifies an affair.

 

Food for thought.... Having sex with your spouse doesn't make it satisfying either. Intimacy is a whole other ball game that doesn't necessary to hand in hand with sex.

 

I'm a great many things but naive isn't one of them.

 

 

You know Mr. Messy did this. He sent the OW emails that occurred between the two of us. One in particular was about...get this....a pillow I used to support a bad knee that was between us. He said he couldn't sleep with it there. I suggested he use the guest room or self medicate as I did in order to sleep. While he sent the jest of the conversation...he conveniently deleted his responses of needing to sleep because he was more important to the family. He needed to work as I did nothing but lay in bed anyway. I could sleep anytime during the day.

 

The other one was indeed about sex. I told him that I didn't want to sleep with him then (had been pissed a week or so I guess at that time) because the words he had used to describe me while out with friends was still bouncing around in my head. Those words got added to previous statements or disrespect and I hadn't worked through pushing it down yet (I did that a lot since I like sex too). Did he send the OW the entire e-mail exchange...sure he did. :rolleyes: He sent the part about him telling why he felt rejected and the part about me saying "I don't care" but the not the part about "not continueing the same disfunctional relationship" or getting counseling. I went alone until he began to bytch about money.

 

You know what...still I was surprised he cheated. We had a contract...a written contract...that I trusted him to uphold. I believed because I came to him when I felt an attraction to someone else he would do the same because that is the contract he signed(yes...this isn't what most people do). My point is why would anyone think the worse of their spouse just because things are not going the way one would desire. Surprise yes. Surprise at the lack of character. Surprise at the lack of respect. Surprise at the dismissal of vows and commitment. Surprise at the refusal to honor the request for communication and help. Surprise at the rewriting of history(not to mention emails). Surprise that he would expose me to STD's and an OW from hell....yes I was surprised.

 

And also agree with your assessment of intimacy. It is hard to maintain that level when life intrudes (children, illness/death of a parent/child, personal illness) sometimes the spouse does slid down the list. One can only hope they are mature enough ride the wave without stamping their feet and having a tantrum. And I will admit to being naive enough to trust him...but he and others I have read about not only ripped that from me..they have made sure that I will send my children into the world with a guarded distrust of people.

[Spark1111]

You people are amazing. Lol. What do you think a therapist would say? Look in the mirror at what the reality was and what could have been different...OR...There there child, you did nothing, it was 100% your partners fault. Lol.

 

Again, tell yourselves what you need to sleep at night, but I think anybody who is ok with having little to no sex in their marriage SHOULD BE aware of possible cheating...doesn't justify it, doesn't make it right, STILL horrible AND wrong....But from my perspective, the ancient chinese saying often times rings true: "if you ain't getting it, someone else is..."

 

It's no different than people who get lazy at work and then are surprised when they get fired. "But my boss seemed ok with me screwing around on Facebook and not working hard for years...for having messed up priorities...What changed?!?" Ummmm maybe the boss found someone else who was willing to ignore Facebook and make the company a priority again?!?

 

Again....common sense.

 

This is what psychologist and author Dr. Shirley Glass called the "water pump" theory, as in she thought that if you got enough at home, you never strayed.

 

Discovered it was not true, and then began to study and research and launched a career from it.

 

But it is a common misconception....

[Spark1111]

I'm so sorry you went through all that BNB!

 

Yes, it would be VERY naive for someone to believe they are seeing EVERYTHING just because someone shows them a supposed "factual" e-mail exchange. Your example proves that to a 'T'

 

This is known as cherry-picking a document to prove your lie or point and to garner sympathy from your AP.

[nofool4u]

1. I didn't call anyone naive.

 

You said it in your title of this thread. Granted you put it in the form of a question, but we are not stupid.

 

 

I asked a question that most of the people responding can't apparently handle.

 

And you knew this and knew what you were doing by posting this in the Infidelity section.

 

As far as your response to someone's question, do you really think people who have been hurt at the hands of people such as yourself really care to hear how wonderful your affair turned out to be and the victory over your respective BS's?

[nofool4u]

THANK YOU! The original question was about the surprise factor and I appreciate you getting that. I have a feeling I could have asked this question as a BS and gotten more honest feedback. Apparently my status as an OW was too much to take.

 

No, we just aren't fooled by your intentions of starting this thread.

[nofool4u]

Live in a dead marriage for years and see how you fare.

 

I did. I didn't cheat.

[Decorative]

This is what psychologist and author Dr. Shirley Glass called the "water pump" theory, as in she thought that if you got enough at home, you never strayed.

 

Discovered it was not true, and then began to study and research and launched a career from it.

 

But it is a common misconception....

 

Yup. Harley has based his life's work on it. The misconception.

[Spark1111]

Yup. Harley has based his life's work on it. The misconception.

 

And what I love about Pittman? He doesn't care if it is or it isn't the reason, just pull yourself up from your bootstraps, always tell the truth about EVERYTHING and stop expecting your marriage and spouse to make you happy. YOU make you happy.

[BetrayedH]

Now, now. You two should know better than to argue with common sense with all them there fancy books you been a readin'.

 

Besides, they meant we were naive in the good sense of the word.

[Decorative]

And what I love about Pittman? He doesn't care if it is or it isn't the reason, just pull yourself up from your bootstraps, always tell the truth about EVERYTHING and stop expecting your marriage and spouse to make you happy. YOU make you happy.

 

Yes! Totally totally agree!!!!

 

I swear, you would think that comes naturally. It does not. Whoo doggie, it does not come naturally to everyone.

 

His book is harder to read but Schnarch's studies show the key is being differentiated from your spouse and complete on your own. Then your marriage will be stronger and less volatile. I'm doing it a disservice in this brief blurb- but it makes perfect sense. It's about avoiding false intimacy of enmeshment.

[BetrayedH]

Now you just slow on down here for a minute.

 

It almost sounds like what yer sayin' is that if you ain't gettin' enough, maybe yer not givin' enough. I mean, it's almost like you think the cheater should be working harder on bein' happy on their own instead of dependin' on their spouse for every dang thing. This don't sound like it's about sex at all. I mean, whatdya think, it's the cheater's fault or somethin'? Women just need to be givin' more BJs and stuff.

[OpenBook]

I mean, it's almost like you think the cheater should be working harder on bein' happy on their own instead of dependin' on their spouse for every dang thing.

 

Well, that's exactly what the cheater is doing, isn't it? Looking outside the M for his own happiness? I'm not so sure this Shchmutster theory is going to work for a couple trying to reconcile a M.

[Decorative]

Now you just slow on down here for a minute.

 

It almost sounds like what yer sayin' is that if you ain't gettin' enough, maybe yer not givin' enough. I mean, it's almost like you think the cheater should be working harder on bein' happy on their own instead of dependin' on their spouse for every dang thing. This don't sound like it's about sex at all. I mean, whatdya think, it's the cheater's fault or somethin'? Women just need to be givin' more BJs and stuff.

 

I actually just snorted my tea.

 

Rofl

[BetrayedH]

No, we just aren't fooled by your intentions of starting this thread.

 

Now, nofool, you just need to understand how a "disclaimer" works. I'll give you an example. "I don't have no problem with black people, but..." Then you just go ahead and say whatever problem you have with black people that you want and nobody can say anything. See? No harm done.

 

Now practice with me. "I'm not saying that betrayed spouses are bitter or naive or that there's anything wrong with that, but (insert your personal favorite offensive comment about naive and bitter betrayed spouses here)."

 

It makes it all good!

[Decorative]

Well, that's exactly what the cheater is doing, isn't it? Looking outside the M for his own happiness? I'm not so sure this Shchmutster theory is going to work for a couple trying to reconcile a M.

 

As I said above- I didn't do the world's best job explaining it.

 

It doesn't mean outside the marriage in someone else's pants, or in another person.

 

It means finding out how, if the person hasn't done it before, to be deeply happy and satisfied and actualized as a person on your own. Then what you bring to the marriage is solid and stable and not needy. It means being intrinsically at peace with yourself. Not seeking outside validation.

 

It basically invalidates Tom Cruise's heartfelt speech at the end of Jerry MacGuire.

[Furious]

As I said above- I didn't do the world's best job explaining it.

 

It doesn't mean outside the marriage in someone else's pants, or in another person.

 

It means finding out how, if the person hasn't done it before, to be deeply happy and satisfied and actualized as a person on your own. Then what you bring to the marriage is solid and stable and not needy. It means being intrinsically at peace with yourself. Not seeking outside validation.

 

It basically invalidates Tom Cruise's heartfelt speech at the end of Jerry MacGuire.

 

 

Well that's just crazy talk, I thought happiness was always found in someone's else's pant's.:D:D:D

 

I get it now....if you want to be happy you stay married, lie and cheat.

Divorce and honesty are not an option.

[chucksagent]

So I guess the conclusion we all came to is that it's perfectly normal and healthy for a couple to stop having sex? And that if sex stops between man and wife it shouldn't raise any red flags? 10-4. Got it. That sounds smart. Because, after all, you have a contract with each other. Nobody ever violates contracts.

 

As for your people who HAD active sex lives, and were happy, sometimes people just make selfish decisions or have a problem with themselves.

[chucksagent]

Can you Cope in a Sexless Marriage?

 

The negative effects of being in a sexless marriage are far reaching and can be quite dire for the relationship and for personal mental and physical health. Coping with a sexless marriage is therefore something that anyone stuck in this unfortunate situation needs to learn how to do.

 

Some of the things that must be endured include:

• Humiliation - Being rejected by ones spouse is not just annoying it is humiliating and soul destroying

• Self Esteem Issues - Linked to the humiliation many begin to blame how they look for their partners indifference.

• Depression - Living with constant rejection can spiral into clinical depression as this becomes the focus of all your problems in life.

• Infidelity - Men and women without a sexual partner frequently are tempted to cheat even if it makes them feel guilty and they still love their spouse.

• Divorce - Eventually for many people they give up and while they still may care for their partner the intimacy that was the grease in the gears dries up and the whole machine grinds to a halt.

 

......................and another article..................

 

So can a sexless marriage be healthy?

 

The experts agree that a marriage without sex isn't necessarily wrong, but it can be more vulnerable than one with regular sex.

 

MORE VULNERABLE!!!!!! RED FLAG FOR POSSIBLE VULNERABILITIES!!!!

 

The Big No: The truth about sexless marriage - Relationships - TODAY.com

[BetrayedH]

As I said above- I didn't do the world's best job explaining it.

 

It doesn't mean outside the marriage in someone else's pants, or in another person.

 

It means finding out how, if the person hasn't done it before, to be deeply happy and satisfied and actualized as a person on your own. Then what you bring to the marriage is solid and stable and not needy. It means being intrinsically at peace with yourself. Not seeking outside validation.

 

It basically invalidates Tom Cruise's heartfelt speech at the end of Jerry MacGuire.

 

Precisely. Perhaps if people weren't so dependent upon external validation, there wouldn't be a need to break HUGE covenants. The problem lies within the wayward, not a "naive" betrayed spouse.

 

And no one here has said that sex life problems shouldn't be a red flag. Whether or not a spouse anticipates a bunch of conscious deception and betrayal from someone that otherwise showed no signs of it is what's at question. What we typically expect is for the spouse to work on the problems with us or leave. Look, when your BS card arrives in the mail, feel free to come back and tell us all how you saw it coming.

[nofool4u]

So I guess the conclusion we all came to is that it's perfectly normal and healthy for a couple to stop having sex?

 

Nope, not at all true.

 

 

And that if sex stops between man and wife it shouldn't raise any red flags? 10-4. Got it.

 

No, you don't "got it".

 

 

That sounds smart. Because, after all, you have a contract with each other. Nobody ever violates contracts.

 

No, we are saying that things change, people go from being spouses to parents. Marriage and parenting take a toll and both spouses need to make sure things don't become complacent.

 

What we, or perhaps just I, are saying is something like that might seem normal. That they might think thats what happens, that things settle down once you go from being spouse to parent.

 

Could be that there are chemical/medical changes that bring this on, such as a woman going into menopause, or a man might develop ED and would need to seek medical assistance. And for an OW or cheater to come into this part of the forum and call us naive, and yes she did call everyone that with the question of the title of her thread, is just offensive.

 

I mean really, she is happy the way her affair turned out, so what the hell does it matter to her if someone was naive or not? She isn't genuinely interested, she wants to rub BS's noses in dung.

 

 

As for your people who HAD active sex lives, and were happy, sometimes people just make selfish decisions or have a problem with themselves.

 

Duly noted. It can also be duly noted that when that person does make a selfish decision, the other can take steps to remove themselves from said person.

[chucksagent]

Precisely. Perhaps if people weren't so dependent upon external validation, there wouldn't be a need to break HUGE covenants. The problem lies within the wayward, not a "naive" betrayed spouse.

 

And no one here has said that sex life problems shouldn't be a red flag. Whether or not a spouse anticipates a bunch of conscious deception and betrayal from someone that otherwise showed no signs of it is what's at question. What we typically expect is for the spouse to work on the problems with us or leave. Look, when your BS card arrives in the mail, feel free to come back and tell us all how you saw it coming.

 

BetrayedH - Please...Please...Please stop misrepresenting what I said. Openbook...Bentnotbroken...PLEASE have my back here...Read what I have posted.

 

Have I ONCE said the "problem" is with the betrayed spouse? Did I say that a SINGLE TIME? Did I mention ANY KIND of validation?

 

BetrayedH understand this....There is ZERO validation for cheating...NONE!!! I would NEVER cheat on someone - I would simply break up with them WAY before it got to cheating. And a red flag is EXACTLY what people refer to when they say "I should have seen it coming...there were red flags." So I fail to understand your argument.

[chucksagent]

nofool4u - obviously the OP is wrong in this situation. She has no right to try and justify her behavior. It was immoral and reprehensible. I HATE HATE HATE when someone KNOWS another person is married or even committed and knowingly engages in even FLIRTING with the person, much less SEX! Read any of my other posts on here...Lol. I'm old school conservative! I can't STAND adulterers.

 

My simple point was, for me anyway, if I was having marital problems...No date nights, no sex, no intimacy, I would be worried about possible ramifications. Among them would be infidelity...I was just being honest.

 

It doesn't mean I would be right or wrong. I just think given the facts in that situation, it would be naive of me to think it not possible even if we made a commitment to each other. I would EXPECT her to fear the same thing (even though I KNOW I wouldn't stray).

[BetrayedH]

It's a red flag for marital problems and a need for IC, MC, etc.. I didn't see infidelity coming and the inference that I should have (and therefore taken steps to prevent it) is putting some blame on the BS.