Who's naive?

[woinlove]

I'm really not trying to create a firestorm here but I have to ask....

 

I've read a lot here and the OW/OM board about naive APs. While I realize cheating is a betrayal, for those BS's who quit being intimate with your spouse, what did you expect to happen? Seriously, if you decided you don't need sex, or rarely want it, how can you be surprised when your spouse looks for sex, and quite frankly, intimacy on other levels, elsewhere?

 

Again, I'm not trying to stir the pot but I've yet to read a post on this board of one spouse who wasn't surprised or who took any responsibility for their marriage at least being in trouble. Not saying that trouble justifies the affair but it certainly should remove your utter shock. Thoughts?

 

I have to admit I was naive. I have difficulty lying and, at the time, didn't really understand people who lied to those they claimed to love. I believed xMM when he said he wasn't having sex with his W and only later found out he was lying. His W told me and then he confirmed it. Now it seems so obvious, that when you know a man is lying to his W about his actions and their M, you should take that into account and know that he is capable of that kind of deception.

 

I think the specific naiveté one refers to is taking MM at their word knowing that he is capable of ongoing, important deception. Sadly, the OW/OM forum is filled with the fallout of that.

 

In my own M, we weathered a serious illness where there little sex, and we stood by each other a drew closer. While it is not the state either of us would wish, we understand that life can throw us challenges we don't wish for. I can't imagine the circumstances under which either of us would simply not want to be intimate with each other. But I expect if that ever were to happen we would still expect honesty and loyalty, and if that meant ending our M, I would hope we would do it in as honest and respectful way as possible. I would not take it as a free ticket to dishonesty and betrayal - not only because of the pain it would cause my H, but also because of the pain it would cause me to behave like that.

 

I can't really relate to your own position, OtherWoman, of choosing not to be intimate with your H and the suggestion that you would want him to engage in an affair, which in the context of the infidelity forum, means a secret affair with deception (as opposed to an open M, for example). Why not simply be honest and open about everything and discussing it with him and work out together what would work for you two, whether that is an open M, divorce or something else? Or maybe you are talking about an open M, but then I don't see what that has to do with BS and affairs.

 

While a no sex M is not a reasonable state for most people, in itself it does not imply deception and disloyalty. Depending on the circumstances, it could imply bad behavior and the answer would be to work to change that or divorce in my opinion. I don't see how the answer is dishonesty and disloyalty. But, OtherWoman, you seem to think it is and, if so, perhaps you can explain why.

[ComingInHot]

I was just thinking (scary, I know, right!), intimacy having wained or died in the marriage is one thing, it's no excuse to cheat in my eyes but the sex thing, there are solutions.

 

Men have *blushing* "hands" and for women, the make some pretty interesting gadgets...

 

It was Seren's post that made me think of this*

[screwedovertwenty]

I guess I was the naive idiot BS. Years ago, husband started coming home and whipping it out and expecting sex the minute he walked in the door. It didn't matter what I was doing. I could have been scooping the cat box and he would have put his cock in my face. That was about six or seven years ago. As the years went on, he would come home, take a shower and get under the sheets naked and wait for me. He would not offer to help me finish cleaning the house or make any conversation whatsoever. He turned sex into a chore for me. If I came home from work early, he would whip it out without giving me a chance to want it. He would then proceed to play with himself and wanted me to watch. Sex became one more thing on my todo list. I felt guilty not being interested in sex anymore. Its not that I didn't want it, it was that I didn't feel that it was anything to him anymore except getting off. It wasn't about us, it was about him. I still made sure that I "gave it to him" once a week, until the last year when I started getting my period every two weeks.

 

Did I talk to him about it??? Yes, on several occassions I told him that it felt like it was just about sex for him. He laughed it off.

 

He felt rejected. I felt like I was rejecting him and felt guilty about it. I couldn't help it. I did not know how to fix things. I did not know how.

 

He decided to pursue a young coworker a little over a year ago. Was I shocked? YES! I thought he loved me and I was trying to fix our marriage. We both knew our marriage was messed up. I planned our last two anniversaries and tried to make them special and romantic. He started his affair about a month after the first nice anniversary I planned.

 

I guess it was all my fault.

[OtherWoman1971]

Really??!!

 

Your first thread on LS just a short while ago asked the board if he will leave. He allegedly serves his wife with divorce papers to be with you and you don't mention it until a few pages in?

 

I'm not buying it. You would have come here with bells on and the thread would have been entitled, "He Left His Wife."

 

Congratulations, I think you may have the record for a MM leaving his wife in record-breaking speed.

 

It is the truth. I didn't mention it because it wasn't the point of my original question in this thread. Furthermore, I didn't post anything on the OW/OM board because it doesn't matter. No matter what is said, the consensus will always be... He won't go through with the divorce or wait until he cheats on you or even of you're happy for years, you're both destined to rot in hell.

 

The reality is some good people have affairs, are fortunate enough to meet someone they love, and end up on very fulfilling relationships. I intend to be one of those and clearly the man who showed up at my front door a week ago intends to be right next to me.

[OtherWoman1971]

Lool .... I think the court was specially fast in this case to give the divorce papers to this man... wow... is funny how fast the law acts in some peoples fantasy!

 

Can you read? He filed. I didn't say he got a final decree.

[woinlove]

That's everyone's intention when embarking on an R they hope will last - to have a fulfilling R. Some succeed, many don't. On the topic of this thread, it is best to go in with eyes open about the foundation it was built on and not be naive about it, to ensure both parties are doing the work needed to change and to be able to sustain an honest and open R. It is possible, but it takes significant time and desire, and many do not change, as changing oneself usually takes more work than changing partners.

 

Personally, I'd drop labelling people as good or bad people and think in terms of good and bad behavior. I think there is more to learn in that way. If you do not want the deception of the A to rear its head in a future R, it is the behavior that needs to be examined.

[underwater2010]

Actually, thinking about it again, I guess I am naive. I'd rather stay that way than become cynical and distrustful.

 

I will agree....I was naive. I thought that marriage meant that someone was off limits. I thought people took their vows seriously. I thought part of showing someone you love them was picking up the slack, some sex and cooking. Boy was I wrong. On all three points. And reading this forum and others just shows me how wrong I was.

 

I hate the person this has made me. I am always on edge and now read everthing in every statement made. I am always waiting on the other shoe to drop. I want to thank MOW and FWH for that.

[neveragain34]

I didn't get played. Funny how he showed up at my front door with divorce papers huh? Yes, his wife has been served.

 

Sometimes the MM actually does leave when faced with the possibility of throwing away happiness.

 

Congratulations!!! You are on your way to living happily ever after with a wonderful man! Please congratulate him as well for finding such an amazing woman.

 

You have built such a strong foundation to hold you together and it sounds like you know all of the secrets to keeping him happy, unlike his wife (geez, what was he thinking marrying her to begin with??), so you guys should be just perfect as you walk into the sunset, beginning your beautiful new life together.

 

Best wishes are in order! Where should we send the gifts??

[buckeyeblue]

Never - Can't you read??? You should send the gifts to h***! She just said in her post that she and her MM were destined to rot there!!! Her words, not mine.

[Decorative]

Never - Can't you read??? You should send the gifts to h***! She just said in her post that she and her MM were destined to rot there!!! Her words, not mine.

 

Does UPS deliver there?

 

I bet that would be expensive to ship there.

 

#cracksmyselfup

[OtherWoman1971]

Sure it does.

That's why I'm not buying it.

 

You believe I feel the need to post that my MM responded to me ending our relationship by filing for divorce?

 

You don't need to buy it. It is my life and I'm comfortable living it without you.

[OtherWoman1971]

Congratulations!!! You are on your way to living happily ever after with a wonderful man! Please congratulate him as well for finding such an amazing woman.

 

You have built such a strong foundation to hold you together and it sounds like you know all of the secrets to keeping him happy, unlike his wife (geez, what was he thinking marrying her to begin with??), so you guys should be just perfect as you walk into the sunset, beginning your beautiful new life together.

 

Best wishes are in order! Where should we send the gifts??

 

We do have a strong foundation but I know I'd never convince this audience if that.

[OtherWoman1971]

I almost get the impression that you think that "well, his betrayed spouse must have known he would/was cheating on her and since nothing was said, she must have been okay with it, so i don't have to feel guilty and neither does he since he did nothing wrong"...the sad part is that you're probably wrong...she likely didn't know he was cheating, wasn't okay with it, and his actions hurt her greatly

 

I'm not trying to justify my behavior. My original question was more from the perspective of being a wife myself and the lack of sex on my marriage. It honestly had nothing to do with my affair.

[bentnotbroken]

We do have a strong foundation but I know I'd never convince this audience if that.

 

 

And you don't have to. There is absolutely no reason to do so. As long as you believe you have a good foundation...that is what you should concentrate on and not his wife.

[neveragain34]

We do have a strong foundation but I know I'd never convince this audience if that.

 

No, you won't. What were you thinking even posting here to begin with??? You say you aren't trying to stir things up, but did you really expect these BSs to say "I was not surprised at all; this is partly my fault, if not all my fault. I should have bowed down to my needy spouse and maybe he wouldn't have cheated on me."

 

I'm not a BS, yet even I find your thoughts offensive and ignorant. I am embarrassed to admit that I was once in your delusional shoes. So glad I've snapped out of it and learned a hard lesson.

 

This post belongs in the other man/woman board, not here. Maybe there, you'll get the justification you were seeking.

[MissBee]

If you don't mind me asking, who initiated the lack of sex in your relationship...was it you or your husband? you or him? are you wondering why a husband/wife who's spouse no longer wants to have sex with them doesn't instantly assume they are cheating, or are you asking why a spouse who doesn't have sex ( or who does but it's not the "kind " their spouse wants) is surprised when their husband/wife cheats?

 

I gather she is asking about how can it be a surprise if a husband/wife isn't having sex with their spouse that they are cheating. I'm not sure though if she's asking about if one should assume this before finding out or just about whether one can be totally surprised after finding out.

 

I don't think she is saying: "Of course they should be cheating and it's your fault!" but, how I read it is that she's asking if given the situation of the marriage, would one really be bowled over by this and wouldn't it not be naive as well.

 

I think I kind of get it.

 

I already gave my 2 cents on the matter, pointing out that no sex and withholding are different and usually sexlessness (esp withholding) is not a stand alone issue, but at that point, the state of the marriage is probably compromised in other ways and the sexless aspect is but one symptom. For me, if that were the case, then I found out my H was cheating, I would not blame myself but given the condition of the marriage...after the initial hurt, I could reason that the cheating was also another side effect of the degradation. However, in marriages that for all intent and purposes seem okay and the spouses are in As and still having sex with their spouse, it's understandable how discovering an A, one would be completely bowled over.

 

I think it's like if one keeps feeling mysteriously ill over a period of time, with varying symptoms then finally finding out one has a certain medical condition. While unpleasant and still surprising, it is not totally surprising, as you've been having symptoms so could deduce that something was wrong. Versus if you are healthy as a horse, just ran a marathon and go to the doctor just for a check up and hear you have cancer...the latter is way more shocking and unexpected as nothing really pointed to it. This is what I image the OP is talking about where the sexless aspect perhaps substitutes for the "mysterious illness" over time analogy. She can correct me if I am wrong...but that's how I read it anyway.

[OtherWoman1971]

I gather she is asking about how can it be a surprise if a husband/wife isn't having sex with their spouse that they are cheating. I'm not sure though if she's asking about if one should assume this before finding out or just about whether one can be totally surprised after finding out.

 

I don't think she is saying: "Of course they should be cheating and it's your fault!" but, how I read it is that she's asking if given the situation of the marriage, would one really be bowled over by this and wouldn't it not be naive as well.

 

I think I kind of get it.

 

I already gave my 2 cents on the matter, pointing out that no sex and withholding are different and usually sexlessness (esp withholding) is not a stand alone issue, but at that point, the state of the marriage is probably compromised in other ways and the sexless aspect is but one symptom. For me, if that were the case, then I found out my H was cheating, I would not blame myself but given the condition of the marriage...after the initial hurt, I could reason that the cheating was also another side effect of the degradation. However, in marriages that for all intent and purposes seem okay and the spouses are in As and still having sex with their spouse, it's understandable how discovering an A, one would be completely bowled over.

 

I think it's like if one keeps feeling mysteriously ill over a period of time, with varying symptoms then finally finding out one has a certain medical condition. While unpleasant and still surprising, it is not totally surprising, as you've been having symptoms so could deduce that something was wrong. Versus if you are healthy as a horse, just ran a marathon and go to the doctor just for a check up and hear you have cancer...the latter is way more shocking and unexpected as nothing really pointed to it. This is what I image the OP is talking about where the sexless aspect perhaps substitutes for the "mysterious illness" over time analogy. She can correct me if I am wrong...but that's how I read it anyway.

 

Thank you. That is exactly what I meant. It's not about the assignment of blame. Clearly the one cheating has to take that responsibility.

 

I would have been very surprised to find out my husband cheated if we had an active sex life. Since that stopped, I would not have been surprised. The marriage would have ended then but I can't say I would have been surprised.

[buckeyeblue]

No, you won't. What were you thinking even posting here to begin with??? You say you aren't trying to stir things up, but did you really expect these BSs to say "I was not surprised at all; this is partly my fault, if not all my fault. I should have bowed down to my needy spouse and maybe he wouldn't have cheated on me."

 

I'm not a BS, yet even I find your thoughts offensive and ignorant. I am embarrassed to admit that I was once in your delusional shoes. So glad I've snapped out of it and learned a hard lesson.

 

This post belongs in the other man/woman board, not here. Maybe there, you'll get the justification you were seeking.

 

 

Never - I have a feeling that you were NEVER once in her shoes. Don't lump yourself with someone like this.

[Spark1111]

Thank you. That is exactly what I meant. It's not about the assignment of blame. Clearly the one cheating has to take that responsibility.

 

I would have been very surprised to find out my husband cheated if we had an active sex life. Since that stopped, I would not have been surprised. The marriage would have ended then but I can't say I would have been surprised.

 

and I and my fWS never stopped having sex although we dropped to twice a week during his affair. I chalked it up to job stress.

 

So I avoided this thread because I couldn't relate.

 

Sorry to surprise you.

 

if an active and healthy sex life is, and should be, a barometer of a healthy marriage, than yes, many of us were blind-sided and hurt to discover the existence of an AP.

 

Not all affairs are about sex, having it or the lack thereof.

[whichwayisup]

Again, reread my OP. I specifically wrote responsibility for the troubles in the marriage, not the cheating.

 

Okay, my answer is still the same though, just minus the cheating part. Yes, BS's DO take responsibility for their part in the demise in a marriage and/or admit their faults, and problems in a marriage. I think most who are married do take responsibility as that's just a mature and natural way. Unless a person is narcissistic or has other ailments that prevents them from owning mistakes, I believe it is the norm.

[whichwayisup]

I intend to be one of those and clearly the man who showed up at my front door a week ago intends to be right next to me.

 

He got married...Years later had an A with you...Now he's divorcing and showed up at your doorstep a week ago.

 

With that said, he's now not been alone to handle the end of his divorce, deal with the ex, his soon to be ex inlaws, house and financial issues..And, like it or not this WILL hit him - He will grieve the loss of his marriage and the life he onced shared with his wife. Instead he's rushed to your side without having alone time to adjust and just to BE on his own. You two have been having an A, which means getting out of the A dynamic is going to be difficult since it's been hidden and taboo for so long.. This IS why it's good to let that dynamic change and die before charging forward into a new relationship with him. Like slow it down and DATE in a proper way.

 

Everything is just so rushed and because of that it makes for a possible unhealthy relationship. He has bad communication skills and obviously has been quite good at lying, manipulating and cheating. Gas lighting his wife and I'm sure along the way he's hurt you too.

 

Trust IS going to be an issue you just can't see that yet. Good luck and just take things SLOWLY. No need to rush into living together and starting a new life so quickly.

[Spark1111]

Okay, my answer is still the same though, just minus the cheating part. Yes, BS's DO take responsibility for their part in the demise in a marriage and/or admit their faults, and problems in a marriage. I think most who are married do take responsibility as that's just a mature and natural way. Unless a person is narcissistic or has other ailments that prevents them from owning mistakes, I believe it is the norm.

 

I asked my H to got counseling after his depression, but he refused. So I went alone.

 

my H then crashed into her who thought he was wonderful e, not knowing anything of our past.

 

meanwhile, I still continue to go to counseling, DDay hits, I throw my H out to go be with his soulmate and alternate between angry and sad.

 

then I get to self-examination and self- incrimination and what're what I did wrong and what I could have done differently with the same IC.

 

I thought he was gonna slug me with words he was so upset with me.

 

foe two years he had heard me do it all, self-sacrifice, raise successful kids, talk of my absentee H and how I was ok with it as he needed to grow his business to feel better about himself, the ailing parents ( his and mine) that I took care of....and it was the most upset I had ever seen him.

 

if LOVE is an action, I LOVED my H in spades. My IC, who knew me really well, and one child and his friend, wouldn't allow me to take blame for my H's choice to have an affair.

 

but still, I tried.

[Almond_Joy]

Whatever the state of the sex life or other aspects of a marriage, a BS should be surprised they were cheated on, every time. Because whatever's lacking in the marriage, both parties made a commitment to be loyal to each other, under ANY circumstances. If one or the other doesn't want to do without something then they need to end the commitment by getting a divorce. Otherwise the marriage is hypocrisy, it's a farce.

 

If a BS is not surprised by infidelity from their spouse or engages in it themselves, then the commitment they made didn't mean anything to them. The promise of loyalty isn't meant to wane depending on the satisfaction of a party at any given time in the marriage.

 

 

Your word should be worth something - if you made a commitment to be loyal then keep your word.

[BetrayedH]

My situation doesn't fit your premise, at all.

 

As for taking responsibility for marital problems, yes, I accept that we made the mistake of being far too child-centric. We had a new home to pay for, two small children, two cats, two FT jobs, 2 new cars, and so forth. I was a very responsible guy but we didn't tend to the marriage like we could have. We rarely fought but in hindsight (considering what I know today) I most certainly wish I had cultivated my marriage 1000x better than I did.

 

Once we began having children, the sex stopped like a switch had been flipped. It stayed at once a month for 7 years. I tried everything I could think of to improve intimacy to no avail. My wife had every excuse. Suddenly, my wife ramped it up to twice a week. I thought we had turned a corner; she was just in an affair.

 

I certainly didn't expect an affair when sexual frequency increased eight-fold. And I certainly never suspected she would have an affair because I had gone 7 years in a near-sexless marriage and never considered it. I'm funny that way; I expected marriage was a lifetime thing, good or bad.

 

As for the word naive, I hate it. It implies that someone was stupid. I don't think anyone here knows anyone or their situation well enough to call them stupid. You don't know if they "should have known." Marital dynamics are complex and most people are smart enough to anticipate that marital challenges happen and understand that infidelity is not an acceptable solution. I had suffered a near-sexless marriage, never considered cheating, and was then cheated on. I wasn't stupid. My trust was taken advantage of. Calling a BS naive is over-reaching and risks causing unmerited offense.

 

Further, your premise that BS's don't take responsibility is patently false and this predominance of "sexless marriages" causing affairs is overstated at best. Yes, I was surprised to find out that sex twice a week meant my wife would break the vows of fidelity that she took with me in front of our family, about a hundred of our best friends and her God. And I wasn't naive.

[buckeyeblue]

BetrayedH - I am so sorry for your situation. Mine was similar in that we had two FT jobs, four kids in five years and were very focused on our children.

 

You sound like a good man. I hope that you can heal from being betrayed so horribly.