Low Self-Esteem?

[Tenacity]

I was going to comment on this in another thread but didn't want to hijack further.

 

I notice that some posters continually pull out the "low self-esteem" card when a OW struggles (at least at first) with why she would not instantly fall out of love and move straight on to Hate and Loathing for a man who she was emotionally invested in... who lied to her. (This could apply to the opposite genders as well). Why is it a sign of low self-esteem to struggle with trying to hang onto a feeling/love that she thought was special and try to fix something to make the relationship work?

 

I am NOT saying it's fixable - clearly it usually isn't. But I don't see the same comments about low self-esteem on the part of BSs who bend over backwards to make their marriages work after their H (or W) cheats on them. How is lying and deceit any more acceptable in that situation? Why then, using the same analogy, would the BS not have low self-esteem because she doesn't just tell H to take a hike and that she is better than that, etc.?

 

It's hard for me to mentally reconcile that the OW has low self-esteem for hoping a relationship could work out with a MM after she found out she was lied to... yet the BS of that same MM doesn't have low self-esteem for hoping the same thing about the marriage. It's the same man telling lies, after all. How is the destruction of an OW when it all comes crashing down from MM's lies any more of an issue of her self-esteem than the same crashing down in H's marriage?

 

I am genuinely curious. Because I don't see it that way. I see it as human nature to want to believe in the person you love, whether you are married or not. And to struggle to justify it. To me, a much better indicator of self-esteem is NOT that the OW went through those feelings in the first place, but what she ultimately does about it in the end.

 

I do understand the efforts of the BS to do everything to save the marriage. I don't know what I would do in those shoes, but I know I would be destroyed too and I suspect I would set some lines in the sand and fight to save the marriage. There is a lot invested. And yes, maybe it was a one-time thing and won't happen again and everyone is remorseful (hopefully that is the case). So please understand I am NOT saying that the BS has low self-esteem for doing this... in fact, that's my entire point. It isn't about self-esteem.

 

I just don't buy the "low self-esteem" thing all the time.

[promises]

People can also come together in vulnerable times. That isn't low self-esteem.

 

Also, name one person on the planet who has absolutely 100% confident in every area of their life. That person would be a douche.

[Decorative]

When I confirmed that my spouse was actively in an affair- I packed his bags, told everyone who would listen to me or be able to read my words the good news, and wished him well and told him to get out of my life. I knew I deserved far better than that. He has basically crawled over broken glass to fix himself and to fix us.

 

There are many women who find themselves in an affair- and walk away when they realize it, or never even let it get started. Because they have high boundaries and a solid sense of what they deserve.

 

Having low self esteem isn't supposed to be an insult- it's an explanation, and to some slight degree, a mitigation of the horrible responsibility they bear for participating in the harm of another person.

 

Everyone in this world has things to work on within themselves. I have OCD and anxiety. I have probably paid for my therapists vacations. I'm not afraid to admit I have work to do, and things to watch out for.

 

Knowing the motivation for why we choose the things we do is a good thing, in my opinion.

 

Because when we explore the possibility that something we choose causes ourselves and others harm- then we can take action to work on that.

 

And I think that is great.

[Mount]

I just imagine -what kind of life will be...those Betrayed spouse try to hold on their Wayward spouses, by knowing that what WSs are capable to do, or are doing...but still try to hold on the marriage surface. It is a worst live torture and penalty, I have seen so many cases that those BSs were impacted by breast cancer, uterus cancers...etc because of the daily constant torture.

 

I guess I am a bit off the topic, but negative mood is a huge killer to women's health.

 

I don't have low self-esteem. I'm very comfortable with who I am and the things I've done that make me me and I like myself a lot.

But....

I did have a few months where I did struggle with it a bit because being in a triangle skews your perspective and you have to really make sure you keep your balance. I caught it.. I'm really thankful that my MM actually commented on how my self-esteem seemed to have gotten kinda wishy washy and it caught my attention like nothing else. I sat down and really analyzed why it was happening and what was causing that.

 

I realized that I'd started to compromise things I didn't like, wasn't happy with and had started to question myself because of my "optional" role. I did some soul searching, made some changes and actually am really comfortable with myself now.

 

I am sure that some people do get sucked into an unhealthy relationship (not only EMA's but LOTS of unhealthy relationships) because they have poor self esteem and I'm sure that being in an OW/OM position can wear through your self confidence and self esteem over time if you are feeling like less than someone else, but I think it can be minimized if you are conscious of changes in yourself and make sure you are ok with the way you are being treated.

 

As far as whether or not a BS has low self esteem I think its' the same thing. If they do, was that part of why the WS cheated? Maybe sometimes. Did the BS NOT have poor self-esteem until s/he cheated? Maybe sometimes. Did they have it after he cheated? Maybe sometimes! Why woudln't they?

 

I personally think that an awful lot of pop psychology goes on here at LS and that probably 98% are unqualified to be making the kind of analysis that gets made.

 

I also agree that the feelings that come with a break up of any kind are normal and I challenge you to show me ANY person coming off a relationship with someone they really cared about, no matter WHAT the parameters of that relationship were, who isn't second guessing themselves at least a little.

 

Break ups are hard. People hurt. People have to reassess their world, themselves and everything around them when their world falls in. It's natural to have some self esteem issues during that time.

 

I don't know if I stayed on topic. Self esteem issues are something I could talk about for hours so I probably went off on a tangent. Hope I gave some relevant feedback.

[Lue]

I think my thread was the thread that caused this thread...

 

I do have low self-esteem. I don't look it or show it and its always been a secret. But I do. I have a history of sexual abuse and I have battled an eating disorder that no one knows about except my therapist. And I am sure that even though I try to conceal it I am sure I subtlety and not so subtlety let him know that. For example, I know I told him about the rape after we dated for about 4 months

 

 

But I would say...I'm pretty sure he has low self-esteem too. Compliments made him uncomfortable. He has a masters in education but he gave up teaching because he felt he wasn't making a difference. I'm sure that's how he could spot it- he knew the signs to look for because he has some of the same signs. So I think laying the self-esteem thing solely on the OW is unfair. I bet all of us- me, him, her- have low self esteem and that's how we ended up on this mess. Because really, if any of us didnt...would this still be going on two weeks later? No, because she would have kicked him out. I would have not allowed him to contact me. He would have moved onto his next girlfriend. We are all still in this situation because I bet all three of us secretly think this is what we deserve

[Tenacity]

Thanks for the responses!

 

When I confirmed that my spouse was actively in an affair- I packed his bags, told everyone who would listen to me or be able to read my words the good news, and wished him well and told him to get out of my life. I knew I deserved far better than that. He has basically crawled over broken glass to fix himself and to fix us.

 

Thanks Decorative. Certainly no low self-esteem there! That had to be beyond hard.

 

Do you think that BSs who don't throw the WS out have self-esteem issues? (I'm not trying to put you on the spot - and you don't have to reply if you don't want). I'm just really curious what drives these things.

 

I am the first to admit I had issues with self-esteem in the middle of my A, after finding out he was not going to leave his M. I did things I am not proud of, but I feel good for moving past it.

 

I personally think that an awful lot of pop psychology goes on here at LS and that probably 98% are unqualified to be making the kind of analysis that gets made.

 

I could not agree more. It drives me insane.

 

Part of why this topic bothers me is that the term "low self-esteem" is thrown around in a negative context. I'm sure that's not how it's meant but it's how it comes off. I don't think a poster who comes here to say that the guy she was seeing for many months was married and lied about it, should be told she has low self-esteem. Who can know that and why is it even relevant or helpful? Just my opinion.

 

I just imagine -what kind of life will be...those Betrayed spouse try to hold on their Wayward spouses, by knowing that what WSs are capable to do, or are doing...but still try to hold on the marriage surface. It is a worst live torture and penalty, I have seen so many cases that those BSs were impacted by breast cancer, uterus cancers...etc because of the daily constant torture.

 

Thanks for your post but again Mount - my point is NOT to get into 'OW' vs 'BS' issues here because I think it is wrong to generalize.

 

As a physician, I also am not going to touch the comment about incidence of cancer related to being cheated on.

 

Thanks for the replies - this has been an issue I've struggled with for years.

[Tenacity]

I agree with.....LFH..... with regards to the pop psychologists around here...if the person(s) don't have low self esteem, the other defect is ... Narcissism. So many people making judgements about others mental health and I think that is a huge disservice. No one here is a therapist for another poster - no one knows the 'whole' story....just bits and pieces. It gets very tiresome with all the mental disorders that are thrown around here - especially when some of these disorders are truly horrendous yet here they are thrown around like popcorn.

 

We all have judgements and opinions; but I really think the labeling of another person's mental capacities is over the top. These disorders are not a joke and are truly debilitating to those afflicted and their families.

Great post... thank you hockeyfan for saying this.

[carhill]

Perhaps an outlier, when I met my first and most significant MW in my mid-20's, my self-esteem was through the roof. I had just bought my first house, having left a wonderfully intact and healthy family to do so, had started my business, had a wonderful circle of friends and thought this apparently single woman I had met was the bee's knees. It just worked out that she wasn't really single. The only real and exigent qualifier was that my father had died after a long bout with cancer a couple of months before the young lady wandered into my shop. Perhaps that was a 'trigger'. Other than that, I epitomized the antithesis of low self-esteem. It was the 80's so I guess everything is relative. Social dynamics were different back then.

 

A generation later, with the same person, as a MM, yeah, self-esteem had taken a beating, both from dealing with a psychotic person as well as struggling with an unhealthy marriage. That dynamic was a far better teacher of life lesson. We all learn in our own time.

[Decorative]

I just imagine -what kind of life will be...those Betrayed spouse try to hold on their Wayward spouses, by knowing that what WSs are capable to do, or are doing...but still try to hold on the marriage surface. It is a worst live torture and penalty, I have seen so many cases that those BSs were impacted by breast cancer, uterus cancers...etc because of the daily constant torture.

 

I guess I am a bit off the topic, but negative mood is a huge killer to women's health.

 

Yes. Those damn betrayed spouses.

 

How dare they work with their spouses to remain married?

 

The nerve of them, really. I mean- reading this post? Now they are at a higher risk of breast and uterine cancer because of reconciliation. Maybe we should put warning signs in marital therapy offices? Reconciliation places your girly parts at higher risk?

 

Yes. Unmitigated stress has an impact on health. Working to alleviate that stress by solving problems and working a marriage out, or choosing to separate and start a new life? Is pretty much the opposite of that. It's taking charge and moving forward.

 

That's called empowerment. And I'm pretty sure you get to keep your uterus with that deal. If you want to.

[Tenacity]

Lue, you are on to something once again. I'm a survivor of a physically abusive serial cheater alcoholic father, plus a few more horrors in life not mentioned and I have often said.........xmm sensed the sick part in me and the broken and our attraction for each other was based on the sick parts in both of us..........but I had no idea he was what he was. Men like this are so very good at fooling everyone.

 

Good points....

 

I stayed in an abusive marriage for over 15 years while my entire extended family begged me to get out the entire time. Sure wish I could do that over.

[LadyRecovery]

Lue, you are on to something once again. I'm a survivor of a physically abusive serial cheater alcoholic father, plus a few more horrors in life not mentioned and I have often said.........xmm sensed the sick part in me and the broken and our attraction for each other was based on the sick parts in both of us..........but I had no idea he was what he was. Men like this are so very good at fooling everyone.

 

How true, I'm a rape survivor and then some. Spent years in therapy dealing with these issues. MM knows my areas of vulnerability and parts that were broken. My wanting to date older men who I find less threatening, etc. My self-esteem was just fine until I discovered he was M and didn't stick to my guns and keep out of this A. NOW my self-esteem has suffered because of who I have become. Working on fixing this...

 

I irritates me beyond belief for posters on here to do their armchair diagnosis of psychological disorders etc. They don't know that much about me or anyone else. What info is posted here is just a small bit

[Decorative]

Thanks for the responses!

 

 

 

Thanks Decorative. Certainly no low self-esteem there! That had to be beyond hard.

 

Do you think that BSs who don't throw the WS out have self-esteem issues? (I'm not trying to put you on the spot - and you don't have to reply if you don't want). I'm just really curious what drives these things.

 

I am the first to admit I had issues with self-esteem in the middle of my A, after finding out he was not going to leave his M. I did things I am not proud of, but I feel good for moving past it.

 

 

 

I could not agree more. It drives me insane.

 

Part of why this topic bothers me is that the term "low self-esteem" is thrown around in a negative context. I'm sure that's not how it's meant but it's how it comes off. I don't think a poster who comes here to say that the guy she was seeing for many months was married and lied about it, should be told she has low self-esteem. Who can know that and why is it even relevant or helpful? Just my opinion.

 

 

 

Thanks for your post but again Mount - my point is NOT to get into 'OW' vs 'BS' issues here because I think it is wrong to generalize.

 

As a physician, I also am not going to touch the comment about incidence of cancer related to being cheated on.

 

Thanks for the replies - this has been an issue I've struggled with for years.

 

Yes. I do. I have watched some betrayed spouses really struggle with the strength to take action. They doubt themselves. They struggle.

 

You need to get to a place where you are ready to walk away from the marriage- before you can either save it or keep walking. It may not mean hefty bagging like I did- but it means holding that hand up and saying " no more. Not a second more of this."

 

And again- I don't think of lower self esteem- or situational low self esteem ( which is more what I think tends to happen to a betrayed spouse - they get worn down from gaslighting, and they have the shock of a DDay- and there's a reason PTSD gets diagnosed frequently after) as a permanent or negative thing. I don't.

 

I think of it as a contributing factor to some issues. And I think there's usually something that needs to be traced and figured out to what the origination of it was.

 

I am a huge believer in self examination, and I carry pom poms to cheer on therapy. LOL So please know when I make comments like that ( and I will try very hard to phrase them carefully)- I am coming from concern, and the point that information and suggestions are things to be considered. They can be dismissed if they don't fit.

[Decorative]

When the BS discovers the affair he or she may have to process in an instant an affair that may have lasted 2-3 years. That is why it may take a long time to finally end the marriage.

 

That's a good point.

[buckeyeblue]

Decorative - First orange paint causes men to cheat and now reconciliation causes uterine cancer. You can't win!!!

 

Tenacity - I never really thought that it was a self-esteem issue with OW. I think it's more of a lack of self-respect and lack of moral compass.

[Decorative]

Decorative - First orange paint causes men to cheat and now reconciliation causes uterine cancer. You can't win!!!

 

.

 

I really just want to hide in a non-orange corner and sing love songs to my uterus now.

 

I haz the sadz.

 

[Tenacity]

Wow... I can't possibly begin to reply individually to all these great posts.

 

And thanks for the respectable posts.

 

Decorative - thank you for replying to my question. You are one of the strongest most intelligent women I have ever (well, never) met. I love your posts. I learn much from you.

 

Pierre, this wasn't meant to be an attack on you. I think your posts are great and I love the info you give and I agree with you most of the time. I also agree with LFH; it does seem that the 'low self esteem' thing comes out a lot, and you may be right but I'm not sure it always applies. It wasn't just you who this was directed at, please know. It's something I have been thinking about for a long time, due to my own struggles.

[Silly_Girl]

And really......LFH touched on it.........many, many women get involved in relationships that are all wrong for them, some of them marry them.

 

Indeed! And that's one reason this board is so busy.

[Got it]

While I have dealt with low self esteem in my past, to be honest (and I have puzzled over this for awhile), when the affair happened, I was actually at a very peaceful stage in my life. I had finally reconciled where my marriages was and finally gave up the ghost of trying to make it work. Just letting go . . . it was a very freeing feeling. I was moving up at work, and while I appreciated the investment and recognition that dMM was giving me, I wasn't suffering without it. I was also continuing to make more money - the most money at that point in my life.

 

Even when we were broken up, yes my ego took a bruising but I didn't see it like I wasn't worthy. It hurt like hell, but I also know where I threw down my gauntlet so it wasn't like I didn't feel I had some sort of power in it. I was quite sure he would take me back as his OW if I so choose. I was just done with that role. It was hard, it was crushing, it was miserable. But it wasn't the same as when my ex and I broke up in college, he was with someone else and I had no coping skills whatsoever. I had no real connections to turn to, I was crying all the time, struggling and considered suicide. My eating disorder was at its height and I was down to 100 lbs. That was low self esteem but that was also the turning point for me. My self esteem never dropped like that again. I restructured many things and I learned a great many lessons.

 

(and for those who have suffered from anorexia will understand. I was finally at my lowest weight, I could see all of my ribs, my hip bones stuck out farther than my stomach. All the things in the sick mindset you would be thrilled about. I finally did it. And you know what I realized? I was freezing my a## off!!! I was under a heating blanket whenever home and always bundled up because I couldn't get cold. Finally hit the point where in my sick mind I was going to be happy, the challenge of always starving and the victory was being totally miserable, depressed, and frozen. And always sick. That was my tipping point, my break through. While you never fully get away from the eating disorder, it stopped ruling my life at that moment.) Talk about joykill.

 

I would say since I turned 30, I have grown more and more comfortable in my skin. Sure I don't love everything, but I am far more accepting and loving to myself than I was in my younger years. I spent too much time and energy focusing on all the imperfections.

[Got it]

Tenacity I don't think it's low self esteem at all. I've never used that argument. I actually think its the opposite. It's vanity and entitlement and thinking they're better than his wife. That also makes OW believe the limerance xrap from MM. Wouldn't someone without vanity and entitlement say hang in, what about your wife? Better get packing!

 

And in the aftermath, if someone had low self esteem they would think it made sense to have dumped them, they wouldn't need an explanation an they would not hold on to the belief it must have all been true. It's actually arrogance that makes people hold on to the belief THEY were real and the wife was just a historical artifact.

 

Your bottom theory doesn't make sense. Why does someone believing that they deserve an explanation jump to believing that they are "real" and the wife is "just a historical artifact"? What does that even mean? (I am feeling like I have asked you that before).

 

What does it mean for one to believe they are real? I can touch my arm, so I know I am real. I can feel the keys under my fingers. So that seems pretty real. I can remember the touch of his skin, the words from his mouth, the actions he made. So that seems to be pretty real. I do believe I really did have fish for dinner. So, I think I can check that off. So that seems pretty real to me.

 

And in what way is the wife a historical artifact? I think if she was truly a historical artifact, a keepsake from generations gone, I feel like we would have a different scenario. Do you mean old? Are you saying the wife is always old? That doesn't seem nice or true. Can't say that was the case in my situation. She and I were pretty close in age. Hmmm . . . . I am trying to figure this out.

 

IMaybe known of this is true. What is true? What is real?

 

I feel like we should smoke a doobie and get all existential up in here. What is life? What is the meaning of life? What does it mean? What does anything mean? I did just eat some killer brownies . . . .

[Lue]

The OW believes the wife is a historical artifact because the MM tells her that. He tells her the wife is the past but she...she is the future. And then they paint the picture of what the future will be like and she believes it wholeheartedly. Because why would he lie? He loves her, and in her mind there's nothing for him to lie about. She feels like she's in on the secret and she's supporting him through a difficult but temporary time

[Got it]

The OW believes the wife is a historical artifact because the MM tells her that. He tells her the wife is the past but she...she is the future. And then they paint the picture of what the future will be like and she believes it wholeheartedly. Because why would he lie? He loves her, and in her mind there's nothing for him to lie about. She feels like she's in on the secret and she's supporting him through a difficult but temporary time

 

Not in every case. There are many where the MP is very upfront that they are not divorcing.

 

So while in some, yes, there is talk of divorce, but in others that is not the case.

[Got it]

MFH70, OW run the gamut........from low self esteem to spoiled and entitled and everything in between. There are no absolutes.

 

For the record, I'm a remorseful fow.........but the derogatory way you address these woman is offensive. (Your comment about them not being real.)

 

We should try to raise them up, not beat them down.

 

Ah, yes. The difference between support and denigration.

[SidLyon]

I was going to comment on this in another thread but didn't want to hijack further.

 

I notice that some posters continually pull out the "low self-esteem" card when a OW struggles (at least at first) with why she would not instantly fall out of love and move straight on to Hate and Loathing for a man who she was emotionally invested in... who lied to her. (This could apply to the opposite genders as well). Why is it a sign of low self-esteem to struggle with trying to hang onto a feeling/love that she thought was special and try to fix something to make the relationship work?

 

I am NOT saying it's fixable - clearly it usually isn't. But I don't see the same comments about low self-esteem on the part of BSs who bend over backwards to make their marriages work after their H (or W) cheats on them. How is lying and deceit any more acceptable in that situation? Why then, using the same analogy, would the BS not have low self-esteem because she doesn't just tell H to take a hike and that she is better than that, etc.?

 

It's hard for me to mentally reconcile that the OW has low self-esteem for hoping a relationship could work out with a MM after she found out she was lied to... yet the BS of that same MM doesn't have low self-esteem for hoping the same thing about the marriage. It's the same man telling lies, after all. How is the destruction of an OW when it all comes crashing down from MM's lies any more of an issue of her self-esteem than the same crashing down in H's marriage?

 

I am genuinely curious. Because I don't see it that way. I see it as human nature to want to believe in the person you love, whether you are married or not. And to struggle to justify it. To me, a much better indicator of self-esteem is NOT that the OW went through those feelings in the first place, but what she ultimately does about it in the end.

 

I do understand the efforts of the BS to do everything to save the marriage. I don't know what I would do in those shoes, but I know I would be destroyed too and I suspect I would set some lines in the sand and fight to save the marriage. There is a lot invested. And yes, maybe it was a one-time thing and won't happen again and everyone is remorseful (hopefully that is the case). So please understand I am NOT saying that the BS has low self-esteem for doing this... in fact, that's my entire point. It isn't about self-esteem.

 

I just don't buy the "low self-esteem" thing all the time.

 

I'm a BW and my self-esteem hit all all-time low immediately after d-day and in the early days of reconciliation with my fWH.

 

Even without posting to LS I would have thought that the self-esteem of many OW would also reach all-time lows when d-day occurs and the MM suddenly doesn't want to know them. We hear horrific stories of the MM just disappearing on an OW without explanation after having made numerous promises that go unkept.

 

Reading LS I interpret so many of these anguished posters (both BW and OW) as having low self-esteem almost directly linked to the actions of the MM in the situation.

 

It may not just all be about self-esteem but unfortunately it plays a very big part in the recovery from an affair by many OWs and BWs.

 

I'm actually puzzled because your post above seems to regard an suggestion that someone has low self-esteem as an insult, whereas for many it's a fact.

[Got it]

I don't think it's an insult. I don't think it is accurate all that often either. I do think it is an excuse. The BS is the one who ends up with a huge dent in their self esteem but they are expected to behave with dignity and honor and cut little slack if they fall down. I don't think self esteem issues are ever an excuse for harming others. The problem is I think some fail to admit that's what it always is, harming others.

 

REALLY!?! According to whom? lol I think there are many cases where the BS is quite . . . demonstrative and seem to do alright with little backlash.

 

What is always harming others? Self esteem? People aren't admitting that self esteem is hurting others????

 

Lucy, you have some 'splaining to do!

[buckeyeblue]

Lucy, you have some 'splaining to do!

 

 

t/j - One of my favorite lines!!! When I say this to my kids, they have NO idea what I am talking about!