xOW here to say...

[stevie_23]

mistake i've made in a lot of situations is expecting people to think/act like i would do in their situation. fact is, they seldom do.

 

This is something I have to keep reminding myself too whenever I find myself thinking with tension, anger, resentment, hurt and stress, "WHY didn't he do this, or that, or whatever else?!" I must remember not everyone thinks and acts the same as me. My methods in dealing with situation are not automatically "right".

[Silly_Girl]

I think this is very wise. The 2 people who have been doing wrong on an ongoing basis (remember that old right vs wrong which is inconveniently very black vs white)...are not in the best position to judge what's the right thing to do. I would hope the BS had most say post A and its normal that s/he will have a much better sense of what the right thig is as well as what is best for him/her and that they should e first last and middle in the WS mind. If it helps the BS to have the OW told the truth then fine. If it doesn't then the OW shouldn't be considered. Not because she's not hurting but becase she's had her fun and now it's time for wrongs to be righted. And I just don't see the wrong that's being some to the Ow. Why was she entitled to have promises kept or honesty when no one else was? It seems kind of presumptuous and precious to me.

 

Regardless of your moral stance, a relationship between the MM and OW began, and grew and was very likely completely unrelated to, and barely impacted by, the existence of a wife. If the MM was happy to go out and start a relationship, then the onus is on him to also end it, if he so chooses. Not to sneak away and save himself the hassle.

[stillbyMyself]

When I went back over this thread, I wasn't sure if someone said this before, but a possibility could be he is a coward that doesn't want to say anything to you, to leave the door open. He wants to keep you hanging on in the background, just in case this "new" behavior he "has" to do doesn't work out for him. This would be very cruel on his part, but from what you have posted he doesn't seem to be very honorable to begin with.

 

I would say to prepare yourself to hear from him sometime in the future. Keep a journal of all the terrible feeling you have right now and lies he has told you. Keep telling yourself that you deserve to be treated better by those you love and by yourself.

 

I am very sorry you are hurting , but time to grieve will make it a little better every month.

[HonestNeurotic]

I feel your pain. That "not knowing". That POOF!

 

I dunno why MFH is so busy moralizing on everyone. Really MFH, I don't get it. Sorry your sister or your friend or whomever got dumped on. Pretty sure they're never gonna be happy, cuz you are gonna be there harping on the "bad guy" for the rest of his life. That's not HEALING. It's Management by Machiavelli. IMHO - IMHO

 

The important thing is to acknowledge the truth of what you feel. Then, REMEMBER that. Forgive, but never forget. If you forget, then you've forgotten the life's lesson.

 

Admonishment is not going to help a person heal. I've grown as a person - but I would lash out in rebellion and get myself into worse situations when berated for some minor wrongdoing that I did in life. Self destruction. I'd invite the same kinds of people into my life, subconsciously.

 

Personally - I think it's more important for one to see why they have the feelings they do now, and to look at themselves, and learn the lesson. Encouraging those who are in need of support in the NC and sharing the lies that MM's and MW's all use is supportive. I find it a tad discomforting that some poster feel the need to lash out as those of us that have made a mistake, and we're hurting.

 

Hugs to you fooled. I am so sorry that you lost your friend. I almost lost a friend that way - because he thought he was falling in love with me. Eons ago. I thought about it - I did love him, but I was also possessing the knowledge that I would lose a friend in the end. Friends with Benefits doesn't WORK unless all the friends are single.

[SidLyon]

MFH70 I know you can't fathom it, but a person can own their own crap and choose his marriage and his wife and still treat another person with a measure of decency, (even if you don't think it's deserved). Simply by saying, it's over, and I'm sorry you have been hurt by this affair. I will not be speaking with you again in any form as I'm going to recommit to my wife completely because in spite of our affair, I do love her. I wish you well ow. End......

 

This serves 3 purposes, it lets the ow know it's over and where his loyalty lies and it's also as respectful as it can be under the circumstances to the wife.

 

It's like this mfh.........if a man thinks a woman is good enough to stick his parts in, then he damn sure ought to think she is still good enough to say it's over. A man who is too frigging cowardly to say it's over, and can't say that he is committing to the wife and the marriage, doesn't deserve the wife either, because he is still a low life cowardly pos who treats all women badly.

 

I do agree with this. Possibly because it's what happened in our case. As a BW I agreed that it was the decent and right thing to do. There was no last meeting with fond farewells and declarations of love if only... There was a brief e-mail that basically said it all.

 

However I imagine there are some BWs that insist on complete NC as a condition of reconciliation and I guess there are some MM that feel the same way, otherwise this sort of thing wouldn't happen. To me it seems counter productive because it doesn't let the OW know the affair is over, and has a possibility of leaving everyone in limbo. While I would fault a MM too cowardly to let the OW know it's over, I can't fault a BW for insisting on complete NC. In this case we don't exactly know which it is, but the OW is left in the same rotten position either way.

[wisernow]

MFH70 I know you can't fathom it, but a person can own their own crap and choose his marriage and his wife and still treat another person with a measure of decency, (even if you don't think it's deserved). Simply by saying, it's over, and I'm sorry you have been hurt by this affair. I will not be speaking with you again in any form as I'm going to recommit to my wife completely because in spite of our affair, I do love her. I wish you well ow. End......

 

This serves 3 purposes, it lets the ow know it's over and where his loyalty lies and it's also as respectful as it can be under the circumstances to the wife.

 

It's like this mfh.........if a man thinks a woman is good enough to stick his parts in, then he damn sure ought to think she is still good enough to say it's over. A man who is too frigging cowardly to say it's over, and can't say that he is committing to the wife and the marriage, doesn't deserve the wife either, because he is still a low life cowardly pos who treats all women badly.

 

Awesome post LG! The Xmm in my situation gave me almost word for word of what you wrote above. Were you there? Short, sweet, and over. I know MFH could give two shyte's about the OW, and has made it abundantly clear with her all knowing attitude, and no experience, but a few words are better than the what- ifs and wondering. For me "closure " is a buzz word, but civility isn't and neither is cowardice.

[Tenacity]

And what kind of woman would want to remain married to such a man without a lot of work? Why trust him? I am just amazed at at the BS's here who defend their H's to the death and then think they are somehow above the posts of anyone else here.

 

OP... everything goes around and comes around. If your ex-OM never contacts you again, you can count on the fact that it is very unlikely that he is happy where he is. Why some women think this is a wonderful win situation, I will never know. He didn't initiate or participate in the relationship with you if he was happy.

 

He does not sound like a player. He sounds like he just gave in to his life because he was caught.

 

I would hate to be his wife.

 

Marriage truly sucks.

[Lillyfree]

yeah... i'd say MFH a BS who is in this section of the forum to open fire at OW whenever a chance presents itself, often not withing the context of the thread.

 

the alternative, that's she's a sister of a BS makes her a creep that seems overly invested in her sister's marriage and should consider getting some life experiences of her own...

[waterwoman]

And what kind of woman would want to remain married to such a man without a lot of work? Why trust him? I am just amazed at at the BS's here who defend their H's to the death and then think they are somehow above the posts of anyone else here.

 

OP... everything goes around and comes around. If your ex-OM never contacts you again, you can count on the fact that it is very unlikely that he is happy where he is. Why some women think this is a wonderful win situation, I will never know. He didn't initiate or participate in the relationship with you if he was happy.

 

He does not sound like a player. He sounds like he just gave in to his life because he was caught.

 

I would hate to be his wife.

 

Marriage truly sucks.

 

Great! So all reconciling wives are just stupid saps who are wasting their time and energy? I sympathized with the the OP and don't agree with the post you quoted but do you really need to refute it by slamming all BS who don't turn and run?

[OpenBook]

You think a man never really means it when he says and shows he is dedicated to making it up to his wife in every way possible? Really??

 

Oh I'm sure he means it. Just like he did with his sweet words of promise to the OW. He's a master at compartmentalizing. I'm with Tenacity here - his declarations of love clearly don't mean anything significant. At least not to the women in his life. He's a chameleon - his word is NOT his bond.

[fooled2manyX]

MFH70, what is so hard for you, that you believe the MM could never miss the OW? Your perspective in every writing, is that the MM should and does view the biggest mistake, an invalid person, owed nothing, a volunteer.

 

I don't think you see how all of that glorifies the MM. (if that's how they ALL thought, like you, but it's not.) Your perspective, is much like how a man might view a prostitute he paid for. I can see how a MM/MW would view a prostitute that way. A mistake. Owed nothing, etc. Afterall, there is no emotional attachment and that is the act of paying for sex.

 

I think it's truly a deep seeded issue you have, that men would view all women in the same light. Furthermore, if a MM/MW viewed the OW/OM like you do in all sets of circumstances, "THAT" would actually be more of a red flag than the cheating itself. That a man could effortlessly USE a woman without giving any thought to any feeling she had, OR any thoughts that he put in her head. THAT is a narcissist.

 

Your brother in law, may very well be a narcissist. OR.... he had an ongoing thing with a hooker. Otherwise, believe you me, if it's not one of the above two, then he has feelings for the woman in SOME capacity, even if he tells your sister otherwise. If he doesn't and the OW was an OBJECT to him, that HE can BLAME for HIS ACTIONS, then he should be in serious therapy.

 

Life is messy. Affairs are wrong (I know this and someone pointed out above that I have made it very clear despite what I did, I know they are wrong. I do) BUT, with that said.. these things happen everyday. They are not right and people who have commited to one another have to chose to either make it work, or not. Thats the given. BUT....

 

...there are many factors to make something work. And your theory that it's always a man getting caught & realizing he was only with a WHORE, is not the reality of it. Even if that is how the BS views the woman. Even if that is what the MM tells his wife to make her feel better. In which,

 

If a man is telling his wife "she meant nothing" and degrading the OW to save his ass.....yet...

 

he told the OW she was everything to him, the love of his life. That he wanted to marry her. Make a baby.... etc. THEN........

 

The big problem lies not with the OW, but with the lying sick wayward spouse. (perhaps your brother in law) Because what that shows is he has no regard or understanding that we use things and throw them away. Not people.

 

Now.... granted, I don't know what was said between my xMM and his spouse. As much as I believe stay or not, he would still never put me down to save things, I still don't want to sound naive to you all and make that assumption.

 

I am hurt. Yes, the vanishing act has been the worst part. I have to right to feel as I do, no matter what I did. And I'm over feeling as I do and caring if someone tells me I shouldn't because I had it coming being a mistress. Frankly, would need to focus less energy on me and if I am hurt and more energy on your sister and brother in law.

 

I thank the rest of you for your thoughts, kind words... just being supportive of my feelings which I have no control over. My actions, I most certainly do. But my feelings, I can't control much these days. Thank you.

 

Again MFH70, you may want to get back to your brother in law and ask some questions. Was his other woman a whore in a motel room? Then I see your point. However, if he talks down about a decent woman he spent time with, then I would evaluate if you want someone like that with your sister. PHEW. Afterall, believe me a man who can be so cruel is talking about your sister like that to someone TOO. So sad.

[spice4life]

Great post, fool2manyx. I think is trying to fit your situation into her narrow scope of what happend to her sister.

 

MFH, if you trying so hard to understand then talk to your sister and BIL or an IC about why he strayed if it bothers you so much. Or better yet go get a freakin book about the subject - there are plenty of them out there - instead of coming here and kicking people when they're down. How is being a bully to a perfect stranger any better than what your BIL did? It's not IMHO.

[spice4life]

I think we all deserve closure with anything, a break up, an affair, getting fired from a job, etc. It is nice having an explanation. My first love who I was with from age 13 to 16. He called Me when I was 28 years of age & told me I will always be a part of his heart and if there was anything I needed in the world, I could just call him. To me that was something I waited years to hear from him & even with such a young relationship, and it being years later, I STILL NEEDED THAT CLOSURE.

 

Not sure if you all remember that show Celeb Fit Club with Kevin Federline and Shar Jackson. They were on the show along with other celebs trying to lose weight. They had a counseler on the show who interviewed them. Shar said Kevin and her never talked about Kevin leaving her for Britney Spears, therefore she never had closure. Shar was unable to lose the weight and the counseler figured it was because she needed to hear "I'm sorry" from Kevin and to have closure with the whole situation. Once he acknowledged what he did and apologized, Shar was rapidly losing her extra weight.

 

We all deserve closure no matter what situation.

 

I agree, telling a person it's over allows them to begin healing and move on. Leaving them in limbo keeps the door open just in case you change your mind. It's very selfish.

[watergirl12]

Establishing with me that it was over instead of leaving me here to guess, isn't more painful for her. His promises were no good? Ok. Maybe not. You even wrote that his promises to his wife were no good because he cheated...

 

Your brother in law did this to your sister? But yet, they're still married and he's been redeemed. ?? Ok. So the cheater is redeemed and the good husband now and still in your eyes MFH70 the OW/OM is no good.

 

OOOPppsss, I'm really sorry that you think saying to me it was over is some sort of "validation" which you don't think I'm deserving of. It's not validation, it's the right thing to do.

 

You think feelings just go away because you think they should. Or because circumstances change. They don't. You don't just shut these things off with a switch.

 

And I hate to tell you, but even if your brother in law has done the right thing by your sister "this" time around, you don't know what goes through his head.

 

 

Fool,

 

You will notice on many of the posts here that they assume every marriage is sacred, that the ONLY sin is infidelity, and no BS ever does anything wrong, and every MM stays because he wants too. That you are a good spouse if you don't cheat and a bad spouse if you do.

 

I have yet, yet to see ANY marriage where one spouse was totally honest with the other.

 

I think a lot of people would be shocked to find out how many spouses are hiding money, transactions, or any other forms of cheating and dishonesty.

 

They don't understand that all people are a little bit good and bad. But that doesn't work in the black and white category.

 

Everything has to be black and white and cut and dry to wrap their minds around it.

 

They don't accept that sometimes the BS sucked as a spouse and deserve to be cheated on, that they threaten the MM or MW into staying, and that antiquated notion that OW are harlots, which should of died along with being barefoot and pregnant. That affairs happen for many reasons, and sometimes they even hold a marriage together. That everyone has the highest forms of emotional intelligence and can psychoanalyze everything that they are doing from their own perspective and should know better. Hence my first statement. They need this black and white thinking to hold an uncertain world into place.

 

 

I understand you are grieving and need closure. Not having closure makes it so much worse. But there could be a dozen reasons. some of them include her threatening to take him to the cleaners if he so much as contacts you again. Kids threatening to not talk to him. Her threatening to take the kids in custody.

 

You have to accept he hasn't given it to you and I am sorry. He has not taken care of you. But since he hasn't, you need to take care of yourself now, and learn to move on without the information, without it holding you up. Do you deserve an answer? Yes. He may have fully returned to the marriage or he may have been forced to go NC, you will never know, just like how the pyramids are built.

 

You have to accept that, and start with your recovery. And learn to not give him another thought.

[beenburned]

watergirl,

 

Nobody deserves to be cheated on!

 

If a spouse is unhappy, all they have to do is divorce. Why would you want to stay married to someone who you thought sucked so bad?

[fooled2manyX]

Yeah.. thank you. I am trying. (to feel better) Actually have to push myself to feel better.

 

Thinking back to MFH70's posts. I get where a WS will pull out all the stops to try and recover their marriage. I just will never agree with WS throwing the OM/OW under the bus, claiming they meant nothing (unless it was a one night stand mistake), shifting blame, lying to the spouse about what he told the OW.

 

Really! Yick. Affairs are bad. They are wrong. But that guy needs to go talk to his "brother in law". He keeps posting how his BIL made the OW meaningless to him, to do right by his wife. Ok. I get making things better. Even in my situation, it's not a matter of my xMM saving his marriage. It was just I had to figure it out on my own, that THAT was taking place, instead of him saying "This is the deal." And moving forward from there.

 

MFH70, what do you think your BIL said to the OW when with her? You asked if I/we "don't really believe a man means it when he is going to make it up to his wife." No one is doubting that. I am sure that happens all the time & SHOULD.

 

People are just trying to point out to you, that even if it's not kosher, if a married person spends time, makes promises to, is emotionally invested in another.. that once he gets caught or comes to his senses, or whatever the case, that doesn't eliminate the other person as a player in things. Even if they too were wrong for engaging in the affair.

 

But that is when you have to tell yourself, that the true responsibilty lied with the married person (your brother in law) and not as much with the OM/OW. So, even if he is now going to live the life of the devoted husband he should be, he still just invaded someone else's life and left wreckage in his wake. No, not as much as the hurt he caused his wife. But, "HIS" actions, were still the ones which led to the deceit. And if he has to bow out of something with another person, so be it. If he has to say 'Sorry, but I'm out".............. so be it. But..... a person should still state they are sorry for any wreckage in their wake and damage they have caused to others. Then go on to live the life they want to & receive the help to do so. Never to look back. Fine. I didn't expect my xMM to keep in contact after DDAY. Nor would I want that. But, to make it known it was over??? Yeah.

 

I haven't owned a magic 8 ball since I was 9.

[Tenacity]

Tenacity: so are you saying that a MM always misses his Ow, never comes to see her behavior as being as despicable as his was to his wife? There is no alternative but that he still feels sentimental and fond of his OW even if she never hears from him again? So you're saying there's no such thing as a man like thomasb or my brother in law or several other's I know who are absolutely abject in their shame at the affair and would rather cut off their ear than hear the OWs name?

 

I'm just trying to understand how far you mean it?

 

You think a man never really means it when he says and shows he is dedicated to making it up to his wife in every way possible? Really??

 

Wow, you completely misunderstood my post. Where did I ever say that MM ALWAYS feel "sentimental and fond" of their OW? Of course there are men like thomasb (as you quoted) who screwed around with another woman or women and now doesn't give a rat's azz about how he hurt her and only cares about himself and his own life. There are definitely such men.

 

And yes, there are men who hate that they had A's and regret every second of it, just like I am a woman who feels that way. However, I wouldn't rather "cut off my ear" than hear ex-MM's name. We made mistakes and now are righting it. Does that mean I find him despicable JUST BECAUSE he had an A? No.

 

People make mistakes - it does not define them! Hating someone just on principle, just because you think their behavior is 'despicable' and because you don't want to think outside your own single perspective - that to me is the definition of despicable behavior.

 

But there are also MANY men out there who stay in their M's like the cowards they are simply because they got caught. The W caught them and then laid down the rules "You can stay if and only if"... so they back down and do whatever they are told in order not to lose their lives and financial futures. And the first time the W's back is turned, they contact the OW all over again. Look around here and see how common that is.

 

In my opinion it's likely much more common than the truly remorseful man who then hates the OW, doesn't give a damn that he hurt her, and only lives to make HIS life better and fix things that he screwed up with his wife.

 

Who would want either? Both are completely selfish, narcissistic attitudes from men who only care about what THEY want, when they want it - and don't care who they hurt and discard in the process.

[Tenacity]

We disagree on just about everything then Tenacity.

 

Of course a bad enough act makes a person a bad person until they prove they have changed. It is possible but it takes time and proof. For an affair an OW won't ever see the MMs character after so she will never know.

 

If you are comfortable that most MM who cheat and then who beg to stay after getting caught do so because they have suddenly become infused with high moral character, then I wish you luck. Denial is not just a river, and all that.

 

And if you truly believe that men who lie to their wives, then lie to their OW for weeks and years on end, then suddenly become "moral" and define this by treating the OW like garbage and as if she is 'despicable'... if you really think a person who could treat ANYONE that way, especially someone they professed to love, is of high character, then I am happy to disagree with you... on almost everything. So onward.

[fooled2manyX]

MFH70.. this is where you are sooooooo way off. You wrote above that "..that's where all my sympathy goes to the wife and even a little to him."

 

Wow. Ok. I could agree with that statement if you weren't still bashing the OW.

 

So, you can have sympathy for the cheater..... but, the person who ISN'T married is owed no explanation, is wrong and should just move on & get over it because she is no victim.

 

Interesting.

[Tenacity]

You have totally missed my point. You're so invested in the Ow being owed.

 

It's sad you characterize Thomasb the way you do. It isn't sudden moral character, it's remorse. And realizing that both they and their OW were bad people and trying to change what they can, themselves.

 

"Bad people"? Rapist and murderers and child abusers are "bad people". Aside from that level of despicable, someone isn't a "bad person" just for making a bad decision. Are you a bad person when you make bad decisions, or do you just have personal levels of what you consider a "bad decision" that makes people downright bad? Maybe you think your own personal mistakes (I'm assuming you're not perfect) aren't serious enough to make you a bad person? (Rhetorical questions to make a point).

 

I don't have a problem with remorse. I have plenty of it. (Have you read my posts?) I'm an ex-OW and I don't feel 'owed'. I asked for what I ended up with. Please do not make broad judgmental statements that you assume as fact when you don't know me or my situation.

 

What I have a problem with are people who find it acceptable to treat others - ANY others - with disrespect and to treat them as if they are despicable. Particularly when they were party to it in the first place.

 

On topic to the thread, it's disrespectful - and completely unacceptable - for a MM to lead someone on in an A (whether it was wrong or right), then completely leave her in the lurch without even a sentence saying "goodbye, this was a mistake, I need to work on my marriage, I wish you the best". What kind of person would start a relationship with someone, participate actively in it, make promises of love to this person, and then when their little world comes crashing down, not even have the decency and respect to end the relationship? Even with a SENTENCE?

 

There is NO excuse for it. It's horrible and disrespectful and I can't even imagine the kind of pain it would leave the OW in. It has nothing to do with whether or not YOU think she is a beast for being an OW or even whether MM thinks that. She deserved for him to end the A instead of running like a coward with his tail between his legs in the other direction. It's called human decency and compassion.

[Tenacity]

MFH70.. this is where you are sooooooo way off. You wrote above that "..that's where all my sympathy goes to the wife and even a little to him."

 

Wow. Ok. I could agree with that statement if you weren't still bashing the OW.

 

So, you can have sympathy for the cheater..... but, the person who ISN'T married is owed no explanation, is wrong and should just move on & get over it because she is no victim.

 

Interesting.

 

I agree. This is typical 'justifying' behavior and denial and redirected blame because it's easier to blame everything on the OW than it is to blame the cheating MM.

 

The truth is that ALL parties to an affair are human beings and the pain on ALL ends can be excruciating. I think it's sad that some people can only see it from their own end.

[fooled2manyX]

Alice.... really... "and now the party's over" ????

 

Um darling, I wasn't having a party. I didn't throw a party... attend a party... plan a party or send out invitations to a party. I didn't wear a party hat.. I didn't decorate... I didn't have balloon animals.

[Tenacity]

Your MM most likely didn't want to answer questions like this because he's done lying:

 

"Did you ever love me?"

"Did I mean anything to you?"

"Were you lying when you said [insert pretty much anything he said]?

 

and the one question MM definitely don't want to be asked:

 

"Do you love her?"

 

That would be a worthless conversation. Who would know what the truth is anyway? Since MM usually says the exact opposite to the OW (yes, I love the OW and no, I don't love my W anymore or I'm not "in love" with her). Reality is that he loves himself and not anyone else - or he would not have done what he did to either person.

 

That is not the same thing as acting like a responsible adult and treating people with respect, however... which this man did not do.

[Mount]

I agree as well. As if looking at more grand picture, in future, OWs or XOWs eventually will get out the misery, move forward to their lives, but it seems that the bitter Betrayed wives are stuck with husbands with philandering habits, so BSs are enduring the live torture which is extremely painful.

 

So basically the ending with OW could be short time pain for OW, but for BS they knew what their hubsband are capable of, they will keep hold on and watch and be tortured till the end.

 

That would be a worthless conversation. Who would know what the truth is anyway? Since MM usually says the exact opposite to the OW (yes, I love the OW and no, I don't love my W anymore or I'm not "in love" with her). Reality is that he loves himself and not anyone else - or he would not have done what he did to either person.

 

That is not the same thing as acting like a responsible adult and treating people with respect, however... which this man did not do.

[Tenacity]

I agree as well. As if looking at more grand picture, in future, OWs or XOWs eventually will get out the misery, move forward to their lives, but it seems that the bitter Betrayed wives are stuck with husbands with philandering habits, so BSs are enduring the live torture which is extremely painful.

 

So basically the ending with OW could be short time pain for OW, but for BS they knew what their hubsband are capable of, they will keep hold on and watch and be tortured till the end.

 

Mount, that is not what I meant by my post at all. Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

My point was only that the word of the MM doesn't hold much weight, that this has been proven, and that such a conversation would be pointless.

 

I said nothing about bitter BSs nor did I have any intention of going in that direction. To generalize about any group of people is just wrong. It's why I have hated some of the more attacking posts that are made on this forum.I don't understand why everything had to be about "BSs" or "OWs" as if there is some sort of enemy camp. It should be about individual people.