Do you think an abusive person can change? Would you date them?

[KungFuJoe]

It's the same with a person that cheated on allot on their previous os.

 

Yes they can change but not in 1 or 2 years. It takes allot of time, effort for someone to change their coping strategies.

 

THIS.

 

People CAN change if they've been "taught" something that is not in their nature.

 

I was a VERY angry person growing up as a teenager and even through my 20s. My problem was it was all I knew growing up. It was how I coped. AND IT MADE ME FEEL INVINCIBLE. I was the strongest person on the planet when I was in a full on rage. No one could **** with me.

 

At least that's how I felt. In reality, I probably looked like a crazed lunatic that other people just wanted to back away from.

 

My friends even made an acronym for me...AKS (Angry Korean Syndrome). We joke about it now but it was pretty bad back in the day. I even landed in jail a couple times due to anger issues.

 

How I changed? It happened in phases....milestones in my life you could say.

 

First change started when I started to date my now wife. I almost ruined our relationship because of my anger. I can't believe she stuck around but I think she knew the kind of person I REALLY was. But, I knew she wouldn't stick around forever and that was the start of my recovery.

 

My marriage also helped. I had a family now (including a stepson from my wife) so I had to be a man...be responsible...and be a good role model.

 

Birth of my first daughter. Nothing more needs to be said here.

 

I can honestly say that I'm a LOT better now. People remark on how much calmer I am now, especially my wife. I look back on how I was and I see how EASILY I could have succumbed to my anger and just thrown away the wonderful, amazing life I have today.

 

I still have some temper issues...I don't think I'll ever be the calmest person around...but I can safely say that I'm controlling it...and not vice versa.

 

I did want to add that my "recovery" took place over a decade.

[todreaminblue]

I believe people can change with help and determination, but in saying that its an unknown quantity....if they have or they havent changed, its a risk you take...and as thawholigan says it takes courage to harbor the idea of a relationship with someone who has been abusive.The thing is, at the first sign of abusive tendencies you leave, that is a chance i would give them to show me they are not that way anymore, then take it back if they revert, you leave.....I wouldnt be fearful for myself bt I have children i have to consider...i can handle my own...not when it comes to abuse or threats against my kids.I would walk at the first sign of abuse..catch it before it escalates....i know the signs..deb

[ImperfectionisBeauty]

Why did you befriend this loser in the first place?

 

He messaged me on pof :/ I know... I deleted the profile

[monicaelise]

Depends why he threw her against the wall, ***** tries to shove me she'll find out who can shove the hardest.

 

Judging by the tenor of your posts, I'd be willing to wager that she...whoever she is... generally wins that particular contest. Only friggin' pansies say stuff like this.

[Taramere]

Well, it sounds very concerning. One thing I'd say is that studies tend to show a very high percentage of people reporting having been on the receiving end of domestic abuse at least once in their lives...and those are the people actually reporting it. Figures never take account of people who don't report it because they're ashamed (eg of the judgements of others who take a "well, why didn't you leave? You're stupid for not leaving..." stance).

 

For all people like to think that the West is a progressive society, I wonder how far forward we are in reality compared to the situation say 40 years ago. People (of both genders, I'd say - probably more so with men in domestic violence situations) are still shamed for being victims and are therefore still ashamed to admit to being victims. Domestic violence tends to be associated with poverty, low intelligence levels, dysfunction, alcohol abuse etc. People in a more middle class situation may be particularly loathe to admit to being the victims of domestic abuse because it's still such a taboo and it's so widely perceived as a lower class problem.

 

When figures are as high as they are for domestic violence, and you take into account people who don't report violence for a variety of reasons, I think you have to be realistic and say "well, the odds are quite high that if I get into a cohabiting with somebody they may well abuse me physically at some point. Especially if they like a drink, or they have an anger management problem and are prone to venting their stress on other people.

 

So, controversial as this might be (and I anticipate a few "well, you deserve whatever comes your way" comments resulting, based on the mindset I've seen on this board at times) if a man admitted an incident like that to me I would likely want to find out a fair bit about it before just going ahead and whipping out the dealbreaker list. First of all, he's admitted it to me and in my book that automatically makes him a better person than the guy who would presents himself as Butter Wouldn't Melt In My Mouth, but who is actually an abusive git who refuses to own it. The kind of guy who will hide his anger management problems and then, when found out, blame others for his outbursts in an effort to preserve his own pristine self image.

 

However, you have to consider the message you're potentially sending out to a person who has admitted a violent incident in their past to you by being willing to carry on seeing them despite that violent incident. Might they take this as collusion on your part? Acceptance of the possibility that they might be violent against you? I'd want to know things like was alcohol involved? Had you done anything like that before? How do you know you wouldn't lose your temper and put me at risk?

 

Difficult as it is for people to admit to incidents like that in their past, and worthy as it is of them to volunteer that kind of information I think there's an onus on them to reassure prospective partners that they have sorted themselves out in a very clear way. I wouldn't judge somebody for just walking away, but likewise I wouldn't expect them to judge me as an idiot or a victim for taking the approach I would likely take.

 

As an aside, a former friend of mine was very judgemental about women who associated with men who she regarded as abusive. To the point where she would threated to withdraw her friendship from anybody who was seeing a guy she disliked ("I have a bad gut feeling about him" etc). This same friend once confessed to me that she had thrown a heavy object at a boyfriend and it had missed his head by a fractional measurement. A tiny bit closer and she could have killed him. Yet she would lay down the law to friends about who she felt they should and shouldn't associate with.

 

Check thine own eye for the plank is always a good motto to remember. So is checking the eyes of other people who leap to judgements about "idiotic victims" who they believe deserve everything they get for failing to find this permanently even-tempered, no-skeletons-in-the-closet partner who we should apparently all be with.

 

I'm not excusing what the guy did by any stretch, but this kind of thing is just not as uncommon as the horrified reactions of a lot of people on this thread would suggest. And I don't think we make domestic violence any less common by behaving as though it is a rare event.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Taramere

[Drseussgrrl]

Considering he has a track record in the prison system already, I'm willing to bet he wasn't defending himself against his baby mama.

 

Girl - I gotta say I'm rather concerned that you don't have boundaries. You post about these losers and ask if it's ok to date them. There was the homeless guy who wanted money from you. The military dude who talked about having kids who lives in South America and now this self-proclaimed wife-beater.

 

Where are your standards???

[monicaelise]

Well, it sounds very concerning. One thing I'd say is that studies tend to show a very high percentage of people reporting having been on the receiving end of domestic abuse at least once in their lives...and those are the people actually reporting it. Figures never take account of people who don't report it because they're ashamed (eg of the judgements of others who take a "well, why didn't you leave? You're stupid for not leaving..." stance).

 

For all people like to think that the West is a progressive society, I wonder how far forward we are in reality compared to the situation say 40 years ago. People (of both genders, I'd say - probably more so with men in domestic violence situations) are still shamed for being victims and are therefore still ashamed to admit to being victims. Domestic violence tends to be associated with poverty, low intelligence levels, dysfunction, alcohol abuse etc. People in a more middle class situation may be particularly loathe to admit to being the victims of domestic abuse because it's still such a taboo and it's so widely perceived as a lower class problem.

 

When figures are as high as they are for domestic violence, and you take into account people who don't report violence for a variety of reasons, I think you have to be realistic and say "well, the odds are very high that if I get into a cohabiting with somebody they may well abuse me physically at some point. Especially if they like a drink, or they have an anger management problem and are prone to venting their stress on other people.

 

So, controversial as this might be (and I anticipate a few "well, you deserve whatever comes your way" comments resulting, based on the mindset I've seen on this board at times) if a man admitted an incident like that to me I would likely want to find out a fair bit about it before just going ahead and whipping out the dealbreaker list. First of all, he's admitted it to me and in my book that automatically makes him a better person than the guy who would presents himself as Butter Wouldn't Melt In My Mouth, but who is actually an abusive git who refuses to own it. The kind of guy who will hide his anger management problems and then, when found out, blame others for his outbursts in an effort to preserve his own pristine self image.

 

However, you have to consider the message you're potentially sending out to a person who has admitted a violent incident in their past to you by being willing to carry on seeing them despite that violent incident. Might they take this as collusion on your part? Acceptance of the possibility that they might be violent against you? I'd want to know things like was alcohol involved? Had you done anything like that before? How do you know you wouldn't lose your temper and put me at risk?

 

Difficult as it is for people to admit to incidents like that in their past, and worthy as it is of them to volunteer that kind of information I think there's an onus on them to reassure prospective partners that they have sorted themselves out in a very clear way. I wouldn't judge somebody for just walking away, but likewise I wouldn't expect them to judge me as an idiot or a victim for taking the approach I would likely take.

 

As an aside, a former friend of mine was very judgemental about women who associated with men who she regarded as abusive. To the point where she would threated to withdraw her friendship from anybody who was seeing a guy she disliked ("I have a bad gut feeling about him" etc). This same friend once confessed to me that she had thrown a heavy object at a boyfriend and it had missed his head by a fractional measurement. A tiny bit closer and she could have killed him. Yet she would lay down the law to friends about who she felt they should and shouldn't associate with.

 

Check thine own eye for the plank is always a good motto to remember. So is checking the eyes of other people who leap to judgements about "idiotic victims" who they believe deserve everything they get for failing to find this permanently even-tempered, no-skeletons-in-the-closet partner who we should apparently all be with.

 

I'm not excusing what the guy did by any stretch, but this kind of thing is just not as uncommon as the horrified reactions of a lot of people on this thread would suggest. And I don't think we make domestic violence any less common by behaving as though it is a rare event.

 

If jail time and a history of violence against at least one woman that necessitated the intervention of the legal system (this isn't a he said/she said told by a third party) aren't deal breakers, what exactly would be? Bear in mind this isn't a man she's been involved with who has divulged some buried secret. This is a stranger from an OLD who has done jail time and been ordered by the court him to get counseling for beating a woman. How many times do you think he got away with it before he got caught?

[sweetkiwi]

He messaged me on pof :/ I know... I deleted the profile

 

Ah pof, where all the bottom feeders go to get laid.

 

Stay away from this guy. In this case JUDGE HIM.

 

I dated a guy who confessed to breaking hush baby mamas nose, during sex!! And after that little revelation I stayed. Well he ended up throwing me across a room like a rag doll.

[monicaelise]

Ah pof, where all the bottom feeders go to get laid.

 

Stay away from this guy. In this case JUDGE HIM.

 

I dated a guy who confessed to breaking hush baby mamas nose, during sex!! And after that little revelation I stayed. Well he ended up throwing me across a room like a rag doll.

 

That is what I "liked".

 

Sooooo NOT liking that anyone would ever treat you like that.

[Taramere]

If jail time and a history of violence against at least one woman that necessitated the intervention of the legal system (this isn't a he said/she said told by a third party) aren't deal breakers, what exactly would be? Bear in mind this isn't a man she's been involved with who has divulged some buried secret. This is a stranger from an OLD who has done jail time and been ordered by the court him to get counseling for beating a woman. How many times do you think he got away with it before he got caught?

 

I have to admit that I missed the "jail time" post in amongst all this. It looked like a bit of an afterthought on the OP's part, but is obviously of huge relevance in this particular context.

 

As far as the intervention of the legal system goes, it really doesn't take much for the law to be involved in these matters. Where I live a person can get an interdict (restraining order) very easily against somebody else. They certainly don't have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were assaulted by them. So that's another thing I'd want to find out about if a man told me that the courts had been involved. Criminal court or civil court, would be my question.

 

What I am saying, basically, is that if somebody makes a disclosure to me then my first response is to try to find out more about it from them. I think the angry "oh my god you idiot, don't have any more to do with guys like that" attitude some women give others is actually singularly unhelpful...because all it tends to do is make people who might well become victims feel ashamed and become more secretive about who they're associating with.

[sweetkiwi]

It surprised me how much I put up with from this loser.

 

And IB, in the next few years you will mature and grow exponentially. At least I hope. So get a head start and dont allow abusers to get anywhere near your heart or mind.

 

Flex that NEXT button.

[monicaelise]

I have to admit that I missed the "jail time" post in amongst all this. It looked like a bit of an afterthought on the OP's part, but is obviously of huge relevance in this particular context.

 

As far as the intervention of the legal system goes, it really doesn't take much for the law to be involved in these matters. Where I live a person can get an interdict (restraining order) very easily against somebody else. They certainly don't have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they were assaulted by them. So that's another thing I'd want to find out about if a man told me that the courts had been involved. Criminal court or civil court, would be my question.

 

What I am saying, basically, is that if somebody makes a disclosure to me then my first response is to try to find out more about it from them. I think the angry "oh my god you idiot, don't have any more to do with guys like that" attitude some women give others is actually singularly unhelpful...because all it tends to do is make people who might well become victims feel ashamed and become more secretive about who they're associating with.

 

I hear what you're saying, but this is an anonymous forum. No one here even knows the OP in real life, so the shame aspect doesn't appear to be a legitimate consideration.

 

I've recently been communicating privately with the OP about learning patience and tolerance, but I certainly wouldn't want to think that any of the advice I may have offered about being a bit kinder or less judgmental should extend this far. When you're talking about people who may well physically hurt you, you owe to yourself to walk away. There is nothing unfair in saying "no, thanks" to putting your own well-being at risk.

[Drseussgrrl]

I draw a hard and fast line against this kind of thing.

 

Having been with someone for a few years when I was younger who WAS verbally and emotionally abusive (eventually physically too) I would never, ever subject myself to that garbage again.

 

I eventually got out, but with my self-esteem in shatters, and he went ballistic. I had to get a restraining order as he was stalking me at work, at home, at my friends' houses, threatening me - you name it. He was certifiable.

 

I have ZERO patience for verbal abuse, control, irrational jealousy, or anything else that even hints that a guy might be emotionally unstable to a degree that would impact my life in a negative way.

[veggirl]

He is like telling me all this stuff about how he has been to jail a few times for different things and I am starting to not really want to talk to him anymore, but I don't want to be a bitch and like stop talking to him and then he will think I am judging him you know? I just don't want to date someone with so much extra you know? I mean jail time for stuff and a child it is just a lot. Can I just slowly fade out maybe?

 

Girl you judge people all the time, lol, don't worry about it. Just quit talking to him. he is a trainwreck and I'm glad you are not getting involved.

 

and by the way you are TOO YOUNG to be dating dudes with kids! Any single guy your age with kids is likely living a life of DRAMA.

 

Next time someone confesses something like he did (about the abuse) please just end it right then and there.

[Taramere]

I hear what you're saying, but this is an anonymous forum. No one here even knows the OP in real life, so the shame aspect doesn't appear to be a legitimate consideration.

 

I've recently been communicating privately with the OP about learning patience and tolerance, but I certainly wouldn't want to think that any of the advice I may have offered about being a bit kinder or less judgmental should extend this far. When you're talking about people who may well physically hurt you, you owe to yourself to walk away. There is nothing unfair in saying "no, thanks" to putting your own well-being at risk.

 

I realise that. I don't think it's unfair to walk away from somebody who has a violent incident in their past, and I tried to clarify that. For me, it's more about how people respond to those who don't just walk away immediately...and I'm talking here not so much about responses on this thread as about wider scale responses to these issues. Both on this site, other sites and throughout society.

 

There are a lot of things that make people ashamed to admit to being the victims of violence (and therefore more likely to carry on being victims). first of all the mere fact of having been the victim of violence. "Was it because there's something wrong with me? Did I do something wrong? Would I not be hit if I were prettier, smarter, more charming, better at handling angry people" (and so on).

 

The way abuse gets discussed, it's as though abusive behaviour is something that's restricted to a tiny proportion of dysfunctional individuals in our society. That we can protect ourselves from it by avoiding those very obviously dysfunctional people (and I agree that with his jailtime past, the guy under discussion in this thread would seem to fall into that category...like I say, I had missed that "time in jail" post first time around).

 

However, there are a lot of people out there who are normal, well respected members of the community who have something in their past that others would never guess about. Especially if they're good liars. I suppose that what I'm saying is that at least if somebody puts a violent incident in their past on the table then you know what you're dealing with. At least it's something you can discuss with them openly. I prefer that to the instinct I've occasionally had with a guy that he has an anger problem that he's trying to conceal under a nice guy facade.

 

Like that guy on Loveshack who uses the anonymity of an internet environment to bitch about women liking confident, aggressive men...and who wishes all kinds of bad karma and beatings on those women. Those are the ones who really scare the sh*t out of me. Sometimes the people who admit to aggressive instincts feel a lot safer (and actually less aggressive) to be around...because they're owning it and addressing it. Unless, of course, they're one of those who actively boasts about being violent towards women.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Taramere

[sweetkiwi]

Uhhhm in the beginning stages of dating I cut guys fast. Why would I give a chance to a guy who is abusive and been to jail. There are more problems than just this one.

 

If I was with a man for a period of time, and he confessed to abusing someone, NOW I would walk away. But before I didn't. And I paid for it. Because he abused me. And I had to defend myself against a man twice my size.

 

Luckily he was more sad than angry so he wasn't in rage mode. (How you throw someone across a room when you're NOT in rage mode is beyond me). So I was able to kick him off me and I jumped over his body on the floor and bolted from my own apartment.

 

Nowadays I leave men for disrespecting me. Or simply not loving me as was the case with my ex. Putting forth very strict standards for my partner has never hindered me.

 

And the abusers, losers, manipulators, and justifiers are out round one.

[StanMusial]

OP you are at that age where you are going to be attracted to the "bad boy". You need to resist those urges and contemplate what you want out of life in the long run. You don't want to be another one of his baby mamas or have your head busted open do you?

 

Stay away from him and others like him. Just to get it out of your system, go out with the most normal, boring guy who emails you on POF. Someone who has a career and prospects in life. Just ignore the picture for this first time and go on a short date and try something new just for the sake of trying.

[AMusing]

He is like telling me all this stuff about how he has been to jail a few times for different things and I am starting to not really want to talk to him anymore, but I don't want to be a bitch and like stop talking to him and then he will think I am judging him you know? I just don't want to date someone with so much extra you know? I mean jail time for stuff and a child it is just a lot. Can I just slowly fade out maybe?

 

I think nobody would blame you for "judging" him. He's potentially dangerous and way too complicated for you. Be polite, but by all means completely remove yourself from his life.

 

In a way you are very lucky; most abusive men will hide their history and true personality from you until you are already deeply in love. At that point it is wickedly hard to walk away, and many women will keep trying to give the abuser "another chance" to treat her like she deserves. Once out, it takes a long time to recover from the abuse, and there could always be scars. You learned this guy's personality before your emotions grew strong. Take that gift of knowledge and run.

[ImperfectionisBeauty]

Considering he has a track record in the prison system already, I'm willing to bet he wasn't defending himself against his baby mama.

 

Girl - I gotta say I'm rather concerned that you don't have boundaries. You post about these losers and ask if it's ok to date them. There was the homeless guy who wanted money from you. The military dude who talked about having kids who lives in South America and now this self-proclaimed wife-beater.

 

Where are your standards???

 

I do have standards I swear! Lol

The homeless guy, I didn't give him anything and in all honesty I was just excited that a guy who I was interested in shower an interest in me too, then I realized he just wanted money. I haven't talked to him since.

 

This guy it's only been a few days... I wasn't planning a future with him or anything like that. Now I'm kind of not into him.

 

The military guy.... Idk we don't talk anymore but it was a cute thought that he would just stay in contact with me and then get out in a year or 2 and marry me and we would have babies (obviously I live in a fantasy world).

 

Another thing I just thought of, he is ok with me having cerebral palsy like he doesn't care.. So idk maybe I owe him more than just to stop talking because he has had some past issues? Idk

Edited January 16, 2013 by ImperfectionisBeauty

[charlietheginger]

OP you are at that age where you are going to be attracted to the "bad boy". You need to resist those urges and contemplate what you want out of life in the long run. You don't want to be another one of his baby mamas or have your head busted open do you?

 

Stay away from him and others like him. Just to get it out of your system, go out with the most normal, boring guy who emails you on POF. Someone who has a career and prospects in life. Just ignore the picture for this first time and go on a short date and try something new just for the sake of trying.

 

Bad boys and losers are two different things.

 

Example of a badboy is a guy that rides a motorcycle

Likes seeing many diff women. he is charming yet a jerk

At the same time yet good looking.

 

A loser is a guy that beats women and bounces in and

Outta jail

[charlietheginger]

I do have standards I swear! Lol

The homeless guy, I didn't give him anything and in all honesty I was just excited that a guy who I was interested in shower an interest in me too, then I realized he just wanted money. I haven't talked to him since.

 

This guy it's only been a few days... I wasn't planning a future with him or anything like that. Now I'm kind of not into him.

 

The military guy.... Idk we don't talk anymore but it was a cute thought that he would just stay in contact with me and then get out in a year or 2 and marry me and we would have babies (obviously I live in a fantasy world).

 

Another thing I just thought of, he is ok with me having cerebral palsy like he doesn't care.. So idk maybe I owe him more than just to stop talking because he has had some past issues? Idk

Oh wow i didnt know you have cerebal palsy. No wonder

You are so accepting of others. just be patient a good guy

Will come along and love you regardless of your handicap.

[charlietheginger]

If being an advocate of absolute gender equality makes one a pansy, so be it.

 

Pansy men and beta men think women

Are equal .

 

True alpha men know they were the pants

And will always wear the pants. Only time they

Take off the pants is to get a blow job.

[KungFuJoe]

This is always a touchy subject.

 

But I think one major difference is that, gender equality or not...men, in general, are the physically stronger of the sexes. And that's just how it is. As a man, if we're loading boxes or bringing in groceries, I carry the bigger or heavier ones. If there is a tough job around the house that needs fixin...I do it.

 

And if there's a noise in the house at night, I guess I'm the one with the baseball bat lurking the dark hallways while my wife stays in the bedroom.

 

That's just how I roll.

[Mrlonelyone]

This is always a touchy subject.

 

But I think one major difference is that, gender equality or not...men, in general, are the physically stronger of the sexes. And that's just how it is. As a man, if we're loading boxes or bringing in groceries, I carry the bigger or heavier ones. If there is a tough job around the house that needs fixin...I do it.

 

And if there's a noise in the house at night, I guess I'm the one with the baseball bat lurking the dark hallways while my wife stays in the bedroom.

 

That's just how I roll.

 

I actually agree with this. Being biologically male, yet rejecting traditional gender roles I do not say this out of chauvinism. Many other transgender women, gay men, bisexual men, or just men percieved as effeminate no matter their orientation will affirm this.

 

Sometimes women will get the idea that because you don't act like a macho hard man they can beat you up.

 

Then they try hitting you and hurt their whittle handsy. Or they give this sheepish submissive look when they realize that they can't hurt you.

 

Pound per pound the average man, even with a high fat percentage for a male will have more muscle than a woman. That's just the nature of having testosterone in your system. This even persist in males who have been castrated. They may be weaker than many men, but still stronger than most women.

[Drseussgrrl]

You're certainly entitled to hold archaic and sexist views on gender roles.

 

Shut up and go kill that spider in the bathroom.