nofool4u Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Why is wanting to keep his wife a problem? Somewhere I have read that 70-80% do. So, he wants to hear advice from people that won't lead him to divorce. What does it matter to anyone? And that will be his problem when he realizes those that side with his wife will steer him in her favor. Sucks to be him.
Realist3 Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 The topic is not about him. He was an example. It is about the vibe given off here.
Realist3 Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 No it's not. It's about the insults being handed out to people already in pain. That was already pretty much addressed that the term bitter is not intended to be an insult, just an observation of the mood. The fact that some present a bitter mood in their posts, is what it is. Like was already stated people have every right to be how they want to be, but it doesn't change what it is.
nofool4u Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 The topic is not about him. He was an example. It is about the vibe given off here. Ah, I see. So you can bring "him" into the thread, but when you don't like the points being made, you want to drop it. Ok, fine with me.
nofool4u Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 No it's not. It's about the insults being handed out to people already in pain. And the "bitter" term is used by those that cause the pain, as if we are unreasonable to call someone out on their sh***y behavior towards other people in real life. They seem to think they have carte blanche to be total d!cks to someone, yet those people aren't allowed to dislike them for it. Whatever. That would be like a bully crying when someone actually hits them back. 2
Realist3 Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Ah, I see. So you can bring "him" into the thread, but when you don't like the points being made, you want to drop it. Ok, fine with me. This thread is not about his particular situation. I brought his perspective in as an example of the perceived mood of this place. He is not alone in that perception. Surely you can see the difference.
nofool4u Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 And I told you a story of my friend being pretty much the same way. Didn't want to hear the cold hard truth, so he wanted to turn a blind eye to it and hear what supported his pre-determined path. So I dropped it only for him to come back 3 years later to say he should have listened to me. Again, if the guy that you gave as an example wants to hear only what he wants to hear from gaslighters, then thats his problem. 2
nofool4u Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 This thread is not about his particular situation. I brought his perspective in as an example of the perceived mood of this place. He is not alone in that perception. Surely you can see the difference. And as far as you bringing his example into this thread, sorry, that is simply you trying to say, "well why would anyone want advice from some of you bitter bastards". And you don't try to piss BS's off. Again, you aren't fooling anyone. You veil your intentions very well, but not well enough for us that have a bulls**t detector. 3
Realist3 Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 You are still not addressing the issue, all you are doing is engaging in subterfuge. There is one reality, and that is that there are some posters on this board post with a level of bitterness in their responses to others. I believe at one point in this thread you claimed to "own bitterness", and I would agree with you. You respond with bitterness many times. So what? Why does it offend you that people can recognize it? That is all they are doing. And as I stated many pages ago there are many different ways to state the same thing, and choosing a bitter tone is certainly one of them. I think what is lost on those choosing a bitter tone is that the effectiveness of the advice they are trying to parlay gets lost in the delivery. Just something to think about.
Michael Johnson Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 it can come from both sides... they have been a couple of posts on here by other men/women that run along the lines of " you're so bitter, it's no wonder your spouse cheated" or " if this is the way you are on here, I can only imagine what it's like for your poor wayward spouse"... now if you ask me, that's pretty bitter ( and rude), and also a pretty big assumption...a lot of people post on her so that they have a place to talk about things with people who understand as they have been there too, this does not mean they are like that with their spouse... And some cheaters and/or former waywards who still haven't learned their lesson will insult BSs here when suggested that they need to own their crap. 3
Realist3 Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 it can come from both sides... they have been a couple of posts on here by other men/women that run along the lines of " you're so bitter, it's no wonder your spouse cheated" or " if this is the way you are on here, I can only imagine what it's like for your poor wayward spouse"... now if you ask me, that's pretty bitter ( and rude), and also a pretty big assumption...a lot of people post on her so that they have a place to talk about things with people who understand as they have been there too, this does not mean they are like that with their spouse... I'm sure it does come from both sides. As to the bolded out part? Well... while I have never stated it to anyone, the thought has crossed me mind when reading a few posters. And the reason it crossed my mind is because they present that same tone in almost every response they make. It is one thing to get ginned up over a response here and there if it hits a sore spot. Completely understandable. It is quite another to be constantly in a fit of anger. And yes, I do think there is something that can be taken about a person's personality in noticing how they choose to engage in discourse with others. That is natural. If you choose to present yourself as an angry person, people will notice that and make judgements about how you process things. Talking about things is very healthy. Always being angry is not.
Realist3 Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Choosing a tone of arrogant, superior smugness also results in the effectiveness being lost. No argument there.
woinlove Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 That was already pretty much addressed that the term bitter is not intended to be an insult, just an observation of the mood. The fact that some present a bitter mood in their posts, is what it is. Like was already stated people have every right to be how they want to be, but it doesn't change what it is. You can say this, but it doesn't make it true. You have consistently tried to move this thread to your own agenda. Maybe start your own thread, since your seem to want to discuss your own view of BS posting here, rather than the topic of this thread. Seren and waterwoman, kudos for your thoughtful posts which bring this thread back on topic. Hard to sort through all the off-topic posts, mostly ones just going off on BS's. Ironic, since the thread topic was to exactly address that behavior not to provide more examples of it. 7
Realist3 Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 I'm only speaking for myself. I can only state what my intentions are when the term bitter is used when I am typing it. I'm not discounting that there may be or have been posters that use the term as an insult. But I also can't discount that they may have been using the term to accurately describe what they are witnessing. Based on what others have described in their experiences on other similar type forums, it is not an uncommon phenomena.
dreamingoftigers Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Its like a friend of mine, he actually insinuated that I was bitter, without coming right out and saying it, because he wanted my opinion about his wife's nocturnal activities. Red flags galore, and I recognized them because I went through it with my x-wife. But he didn't want to hear what I had to say from experience and basically told me that just because I went through that with my X doesn't mean its what his wife was doing. He didn't want to believe it and didn't want to think about the possibility that he may have to end his marriage. I dropped it because he didn't want to hear it. What happened? He came back to me and told me I hit the nail on the head and she was cheating. That was 3 years later and he wishes he could have gotten those 3 years back. I remember a poster who's wife had been married 20+ years and she was waving red flags like a Communist gymnastics contest. Her husband wanted to find out what her behavior could be about and how he could help. Needless to say we informed him that she was most likely not part of the Communist Gymnastics League and that she may, in fact, be doing a very different form of gymnastics that he may not want to be cheering on. He was adamant that there was NO WAY she was having an affair. NO WAY at all. We didnt know her and he'd been married to her for 20+ years. (remember when we were all that innocent?) Well after more um, "ahem Mr. Cheering Section. You may be right, bit do some digging anyway. Etc." His response: "Oh my, this is ridiculous. Just because she is getting lingerie that I never see blah blah blah doesn't mean anything. Etc etc etc. I get that you guys were betrayed but there sure are a lot of BITTER people on here." Wuggle gave one of the best responses ever: "I think your Bitter People Membership Card is in the mail." Sure enough one week later he discovers that the outfits are indeed, not a Communist League Gymnastic outfit. But in fact just what it presents to be. (or whatever the Hell Red Flag behavior she was doing, honestly they all blur together now....) "Arg wife of 20+ years! I'll never trust anyone again!" From the outside a healthy sense of skepticism looks like bitterness. We live in a society that underlines trusting our partner to a fault and "the heart is never wrong" blah blah. With love, we are often told to go with the feelings and that if we are xyz enough that a partner will still by us, fairy-tale like until the end of time. Not of this makes any logical sense whatsoever. I think a lot of parents tried to discourage cynicism about love and only some parents taught about protecting oneself. Most of thought that if we were "good people" we would be married to "good people." Good people wouldn't cheat, right? Well, being a good person or dedicated spouse is NOT enough to fulfill a spouse who otherwise night be a decent person but cannot or will not communicate what works or doesn't for them, and stand behind it. We CANNOT possibly be enough for someone who wants us to carry our happiness and their own, or they'll just find someone to fill immune blanks. We CANNOT be enough for someone for someone who feels that their personal happiness entitles them to destroy ours and risk our health to achieve. We simply cannot be enough for someone that does not functionally address their own issues regarding fidelity. Bitterness (IMHO) is the label attached by the wild romantics to people who don't attach a greater value to strong impulses than respect and functional behavior. BITTER is the word used to describe those who wish to showcase following a destructive impulse as what it is: selfish, destructive, cruel, and mostly, self-damaging. It's like telling the child who wants to jump off the roof that flapping their arms really, really fast won't save them from hitting the ground and having them yell back, "you just don't believe in me. I know it'll work. My best friend MM said it will!" Sigh.... SPLAT! Its like a friend of mine, he actually insinuated that I was bitter, without coming right out and saying it, because he wanted my opinion about his wife's nocturnal activities. Red flags galore, and I recognized them because I went through it with my x-wife. But he didn't want to hear what I had to say from experience and basically told me that just because I went through that with my X doesn't mean its what his wife was doing. He didn't want to believe it and didn't want to think about the possibility that he may have to end his marriage. I dropped it because he didn't want to hear it. What happened? He came back to me and told me I hit the nail on the head and she was cheating. That was 3 years later and he wishes he could have gotten those 3 years back. I remember a poster who's wife had been married 20+ years and she was waving red flags like a Communist gymnastics contest. Her husband wanted to find out what her behavior could be about and how he could help. Needless to say we informed him that she was most likely not part of the Communist Gymnastics League and that she may, in fact, be doing a very different form of gymnastics that he may not want to be cheering on. He was adamant that there was NO WAY she was having an affair. NO WAY at all. We didnt know her and he'd been married to her for 20+ years. (remember when we were all that innocent?) Well after more um, "ahem Mr. Cheering Section. You may be right, bit do some digging anyway. Etc." His response: "Oh my, this is ridiculous. Just because she is getting lingerie that I never see blah blah blah doesn't mean anything. Etc etc etc. I get that you guys were betrayed but there sure are a lot of BITTER people on here." Wuggle gave one of the best responses ever: "I think your Bitter People Membership Card is in the mail." Sure enough one week later he discovers that the outfits are indeed, not a Communist League Gymnastic outfit. But in fact just what it presents to be. (or whatever the Hell Red Flag behavior she was doing, honestly they all blur together now....) "Arg wife of 20+ years! I'll never trust anyone again!" From the outside a healthy sense of skepticism looks like bitterness. We live in a society that underlines trusting our partner to a fault and "the heart is never wrong" blah blah. With love, we are often told to go with the feelings and that if we are xyz enough that a partner will still by us, fairy-tale like until the end of time. Not of this makes any logical sense whatsoever. I think a lot of parents tried to discourage cynicism about love and only some parents taught about protecting oneself. Most of thought that if we were "good people" we would be married to "good people." Good people wouldn't cheat, right? Well, being a good person or dedicated spouse is NOT enough to fulfill a spouse who otherwise night be a decent person but cannot or will not communicate what works or doesn't for them, and stand behind it. We CANNOT possibly be enough for someone who wants us to carry our happiness and their own, or they'll just find someone to fill immune blanks. We CANNOT be enough for someone for someone who feels that their personal happiness entitles them to destroy ours and risk our health to achieve. We simply cannot be enough for someone that does not functionally address their own issues regarding fidelity. Bitterness (IMHO) is the label attached by the wild romantics to people who don't attach a greater value to strong impulses than respect and functional behavior. BITTER is the word used to describe those who wish to showcase following a destructive impulse as what it is: selfish, destructive, cruel, and mostly, self-damaging. It's like telling the child who wants to jump off the roof that flapping their arms really, really fast won't save them from hitting the ground and having them yell back, "you just don't believe in me. I know it'll work. My best friend MM said it will!" Sigh.... SPLAT! Its like a friend of mine, he actually insinuated that I was bitter, without coming right out and saying it, because he wanted my opinion about his wife's nocturnal activities. Red flags galore, and I recognized them because I went through it with my x-wife. But he didn't want to hear what I had to say from experience and basically told me that just because I went through that with my X doesn't mean its what his wife was doing. He didn't want to believe it and didn't want to think about the possibility that he may have to end his marriage. I dropped it because he didn't want to hear it. What happened? He came back to me and told me I hit the nail on the head and she was cheating. That was 3 years later and he wishes he could have gotten those 3 years back. 4
dreamingoftigers Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Oh wow, never had that happen before! Sorry peeps! 1
nofool4u Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 You are still not addressing the issue, all you are doing is engaging in subterfuge. There is one reality, and that is that there are some posters on this board post with a level of bitterness in their responses to others. I believe at one point in this thread you claimed to "own bitterness", and I would agree with you. You respond with bitterness many times. So what? Why does it offend you that people can recognize it? That is all they are doing. No, I can recognize that my experiences color my interactions and dialogue. I call it being justifiably resistant. Others, such as yourself, like to call it being "bitter". The word implies that they aren't entitled to feel negatively about those that hurt other people and those that help them do so. Thats the way the word is used, and yes, thats the way it is used by you. Bitter implies there is anger without reason. It is used by people such as yourself to devalue the person and their pain that was caused by people such as yourself. "Oh, he doesn't like the fact that someone is in pain and that I am hurting someoene....he must be bitter" Thats the context in which it is spoken around here, "you must be bitter", as if someone that has been hurt and expresses contempt for those that cause hurt is some sort of petty human being. And as I stated many pages ago there are many different ways to state the same thing, and choosing a bitter tone is certainly one of them. I think what is lost on those choosing a bitter tone is that the effectiveness of the advice they are trying to parlay gets lost in the delivery. As if your words to those you tried to blame for their betrayal is any different. 2
standtall Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Darn, I can't believe that I missed this thread! I think I helped coin the bitter, betrayed phrase. When I use it, it isn't an insult, or an inflammatory comment..even though it certainly does inflame some posters, or some psychobabble gobblygook about my character...since I am a happily married person and have no vested interest in giving a crap about any of these forums... It's just an observation of how some posters come off when they passionately attack anything or anybody that doesn't agree with them when it comes to cheating, or the cheaters themselves. Generally you see it on the OW/OM forum, and a to a lesser degree the Infidelity forum, where the "cheated upon" ones lurk..to attack the people that are involved with a married person. The "cheaters" are here to seek help about their situations and then roundly get mobbed by the "cheated upon" ones about their character and what a home wrecker they are. I think the "cheated upon" ones do this because they have some unresolved feelings of anger (of course) towards their former spouse...who doesn't really care what they think anyway.... so they project it towards a bunch of faceless, nameless, internet strangers. You guys know you do it..quit acting insulted and come up with a better phrase, or stop the attacks that are so apparent to everyone but yourselves.
buckeyeblue Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 When I use it, it isn't an insult, or an inflammatory comment..even though it certainly does inflame some posters, or some psychobabble gobblygook about my character...since I am a happily married person and have no vested interest in giving a crap about any of these forums. I think the "cheated upon" ones do this because they have some unresolved feelings of anger (of course) towards their former spouse...who doesn't really care what they think anyway.... Wow! Pot, meet kettle. Did you take a "nasty" pill this morning?? (said unbitterly ). Nooooooo.....you're not being inflammatory (said sarcastically). If you have "no vested interest in giving a crap", why are you on this forum? Please don't presume to know what ANY of us are thinking or feeling because you have NO idea. William - maybe we should start a "I don't give a crap about any of these forums" for people who... well... don't give a crap about any of these forums!!! 7
standtall Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) If you have "no vested interest in giving a crap", why are you on this forum? Please don't presume to know what ANY of us are thinking or feeling because you have NO idea. That is a very good question that I am glad to answer. I troll these forums giving my 2 cents every now and then in subjects that interest me or things that I may have experience about, and in the process help someone. But, there is a self serving angle to this. I read the these forums to help improve my marriage. It's a form of a self audit. I read about the cheating married woman that is emotionally abandoned by her husband to make sure that I don't neglect my marriage and get disconnected from my wife. I read about the married man screwing his coworker, and then read about the betrayed mom of 3 and the pain that she is going through to make sure that I do not become that man. I read about the young couple who got married without really knowing each other and thank God that is not me. I read about other peoples pain, train wrecks, grief..etc to help me be a better husband to my wife. Edited January 17, 2013 by standtall
dreamingoftigers Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 I think we are discussing a word that is thrown around a lot in different ways. I can see what you are saying about the angry tone. And it is easy for us to clump together through the commonality of the sane trauma. Like being victims or domestic violence or if a particular war. Variable intensity given in examples of course. We can all agree on one thing though: our spouse's behavior was very personally traumatic and often blindsided us. We lost BIG. All of us on an emotional level and our faith shaken in people. We felt that shame, embarrassment, isolation and anger. We felt stepped on. Now, IME from what I have seen, this could very easily breed a ton of bitterness. I can think of one actively bitter BS who honestly I think is probably a WS just from the attitude I pick up. Either that or completely narcissistic. Something anyhow. Something really messed up. Anyhow, most of us left that deep bitterness behind. The vast majority in fact that I have seen and read over the years. Most of us have hit the wall in acceptance that we did not get what we signed on for. Most of us have a pretty good dose of compassion. I think most people that go through trauma in their adulthood do actually become MORE compassionate in general. WS and OW/OM seem to lack that very trait quite often. We describe the hurt and damage. The rebuttal is often something akin of "not my problem. BS gets what I dish out. BS isn't perfect either. I do what I want." Now seriously. Some listen. Some get it. Most don't or only inns limited sense. Some OP are naive etc. And even coming on here and reading threads of other OP can rip the blinders off pretty fast. But initially that "hey, you are totally hurting someone else that doesn't deserve it at all" garners the following: 1. Denial: OP: "I'm not hurting anyone. It's not my spouse. I don't even know them. I'm not breaking any promises." Okay, what? Hello? So you didn't actually ROB the bank BUT you helped plan it, drove the getaway car and helped get the weaponry. Um Yeah, you didn't know the people in the bank either. There is a strongly implied and held to social contract that we aren't supposed to put our hands in other people's pies. Manipulation and dishonesty is abgeneralky frowned-upon behavior because of the hurt it causes. Affairs take that to the extreme. At least usually the affair partners usually manipulate the crap out of each other too, so it isn't just us. WS: "he/she doesn't know and I won't get caught. It ain't hurting nobody." Yes, totally true. Because no one has ever been caught in an affair, ever. You're so damn smart. and yeah, your spouse is totally going to remember you for how you left your cap on the toothpaste. Good job. 2. Blameshifting OP: "well if the BS was so great, the WS wouldn't be here" WS: "if the BS was so great I wouldn't be cheating." Translation: "if the bank didn't have do damn much money, I wouldn't be tempted to Rob it. I do what I want." Translation 2: "the actions of another person have complete control over who I have sex with and I can't think for myself because the BS insists on leaving the cap off of the toothpaste no matter how hard WS tries to keep it on. If BS wasn't a cap-buster, WS wouldn't have to have sex with OP." Oh jeez. I can't continue this post right now. I'll sum up by saying this. Bitterness as perceived by OP/WS is a few things: 1. Actual bitterness. Sometimes. But I find it rare on the forum. 2. Sometimes I see in a certain couple of posters that they deliver with anger not as an actual "rage" but as a way to challenge a WS/OP poster to dig their head out of their butt. I see Nofool4u do this. He says things like "oh come on, that's a load of crap." But not deludedly so. I think he's more bitter about Obama being president than WS/OP on here. 3. A LOT of WS/OP have had some kind of history where their were "emotionally burned" by a histrionic parent etc. Some posts really shine this. In my husband's case he watched me genuinely suffer for 3+ years trying to work things out etc. I would cry and he would rage at me! It really made him seem like a total monster and caused a boatload of trauma in and of itself. But when I went to visit my mother-in-law over the holidays, she was completely a manipulator who would cry, rage, vent and even laugh crazily at times. Highly, highly emotionally manipulative. And apparently she's MELLOWED. There's lots of other crazy where my MIL is concerned. But that need not apply to what I am saying. She emotionally "burned" and exhausted me. I was only there for less than a week and had to leave early! So if that is similar to WSs or OPs history, an expression of pain feel like being "burned" or manipulated no matter how valid the suffering. That is usually where I see the slap-back of "no you are hurting people because you're so BITTER!" the sting of feeling emotionally manipulated is reciprocated by "calling out" the BSs motivation and character. Essentially playing the stick and not the ball. And not effectively either. I'm sure it does come from both sides. As to the bolded out part? Well... while I have never stated it to anyone, the thought has crossed me mind when reading a few posters. And the reason it crossed my mind is because they present that same tone in almost every response they make. It is one thing to get ginned up over a response here and there if it hits a sore spot. Completely understandable. It is quite another to be constantly in a fit of anger. And yes, I do think there is something that can be taken about a person's personality in noticing how they choose to engage in discourse with others. That is natural. If you choose to present yourself as an angry person, people will notice that and make judgements about how you process things. Talking about things is very healthy. Always being angry is not. :facepalm: Darn, I can't believe that I missed this thread! I think I helped coin the bitter, betrayed phrase. When I use it, it isn't an insult, or an inflammatory comment..even though it certainly does inflame some posters, or some psychobabble gobblygook about my character...since I am a happily married person and have no vested interest in giving a crap about any of these forums... It's just an observation of how some posters come off when they passionately attack anything or anybody that doesn't agree with them when it comes to cheating, or the cheaters themselves. Generally you see it on the OW/OM forum, and a to a lesser degree the Infidelity forum, where the "cheated upon" ones lurk..to attack the people that are involved with a married person. The "cheaters" are here to seek help about their situations and then roundly get mobbed by the "cheated upon" ones about their character and what a home wrecker they are. I think the "cheated upon" ones do this because they have some unresolved feelings of anger (of course) towards their former spouse...who doesn't really care what they think anyway.... so they project it towards a bunch of faceless, nameless, internet strangers. You guys know you do it..quit acting insulted and come up with a better phrase, or stop the attacks that are so apparent to everyone but yourselves. 2
Decorative Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 Nope. I find them justifiably spirited. Me, too! *high five* 2
dreamingoftigers Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 What for? My marriage is solid, built around God and based upon love. Besides, I have the train wrecks here as a guide. :facepalm: :facepalm: 1
dreamingoftigers Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 DWT..I am not getting this reference...fill me in? There have been so many posts about pain etc and the reality that BSs have tried to face with their marriage etc. This thread is about bitterness and stating about "train wrecks" etc. is actually shaming and somewhat dismissive to the people existing in the eye of the storm. These are people's marriages. So instead of being a crabby bitch or what have you I looked at what you were trying to say and noticing the words and phrasing you were using to say would actually come off as offensive (no matter how they were meant as true or not). So in essence you trying to (probably) rationally point out "what you see" came out like "YOU GUYS JUST SUCK" to pepole in the middle of the thread about how that is something people say about us whether it's true or not. So I went :facepalm: I saw your message, but your method of delivery was like sending a flower attached to a bullet out of a shotgun. I don't know how to articulate it any better than that without sounding mean or critical. I am seriously not trying to be either. 2
buckeyeblue Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 I do have some loathing. my chemistry teacher in high school was a creep. And I loathe him. Still harboring bitter feelings towards your chemistry teacher?? You should work on that!! 2
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