Bitter betrayed spouses.

[Woggle]

I find it sort of insulting how somebody who found out that the entire relationship they invested themselves in was nothing but a lie is told not to be angry yet cheating spouses can be mad about every percieved slight from years ago.

 

My ex was still angry because one night I didn't magically read her mind about where she wanted to eat even though she never told me but I was supposed to get over her having sex with half the guys who came down here during the summer.

 

They feel as if they have the right to treat anybody how they want but they can just blame their spouse and anybody who doesn't cheer them on for their unhappiness.

[BetrayedH]

I never said it negated someone's opinion. Ever.

I also never said there wasn't a reason for some people to be bitter.

I agree with the statement that was made that I think all BS's have been hurt, but not all are bitter. I do see a difference. The difference wasn't meant to be insulting.

 

I'm out of this conversation now. Apparently bitter means something different to me and I've tried to explain what I meant, to no avail. I'll avoid using the word in the future, but there's a serious disconnect somehow.

 

Hmm. Well, I tried to avoid personal offense but apparently failed. LFH, perhaps you can just respond to a question and we can go from there.

 

Why point out that someone is bitter?

 

From my standpoint, it is usually meant to be dismissive. "Oh, don't listen to Alice; she's just bitter." In this case, it's not just a harmless adjective but we're then left to draw the conclusion that you can thus disregard her. I understand that "you" have probably not directly said this but I still wonder what the intent is when saying that someone is bitter. What is the point you'd be trying to make by using the term? Do you see what I mean. Most of the time, I find the use of the word to imply that the BS's opinion is somehow lessened by the fact that we've been hurt and may even be bitter about it. I don't think the fact that I am on this side of the triangle negates the content of my opinions (or Alice's).

 

For what it's worth, I don't think there is a better word to use when it's the apt adjective but I haven't checked a thesaurus. I do appreciate the effort you're making. I just dislike what's typically implied by calling someone bitter and sadly, if they're not implying that I can be disregarded, it's then usually just meant as an insult via name-calling. If you have a more innocent intent for pointing out bitterness, so be it and I doubt I would take offense.

[BetrayedH]

I can respect that. I can see positive intent when someone may say, "Don't let bitterness consume your life." It's not meant as an insult or to be dismissive.

 

Sadly, I don't think that's the intent of most people that use the word here.

 

To avoid unintentional conflict, you're probably wise to make your point without using that particular word. "Don't let what's happened to you consume your life."

[dreamingoftigers]

I can respect that. I can see positive intent when someone may say, "Don't let bitterness consume your life." It's not meant as an insult or to be dismissive.

 

Sadly, I don't think that's the intent of most people that use the word here.

 

To avoid unintentional conflict, you're probably wise to make your point without using that particular word. "Don't let what's happened to you consume your life."

 

I think the thread topic was about how it is used as a dismissive form.

 

If LFH isn't using it as a dismissive form, I don't think any of us would be bothered by that.

 

I just happened upon another "you guys are just venting on me, why should I have to tell my wife? You are so bitter. None of this is practical. I should be able to have sex outside of m. I am the neglected one here" thread.

 

I think we might want to sticky note some of the most common lines and responses. It might save everyone a lot of work and then we can have more threads about Scrabble-strategy and such.

[Decorative]

I think the thread topic was about how it is used as a dismissive form.

 

If LFH isn't using it as a dismissive form, I don't think any of us would be bothered by that.

 

I just happened upon another "you guys are just venting on me, why should I have to tell my wife? You are so bitter. None of this is practical. I should be able to have sex outside of m. I am the neglected one here" thread.

 

I think we might want to sticky note some of the most common lines and responses. It might save everyone a lot of work and then we can have more threads about Scrabble-strategy and such.

 

My latest obsession is the game Headbands.

 

LOL!!

[waterwoman]

I think the thread topic was about how it is used as a dismissive form.

 

 

Quite.

 

And it only takes a quick read through any selection of threads on these forums to see many examples of it being used thus. When an OW/OM finds they aren't getting the support or sympathy they expected, they sum up the whole thing with only flouncy sentence including the word' bitter' - and it isn't meant constructively as far as I can see

 

The suggestion appears to be that any BS can't have an objective view of any affair because they have been betrayed and therefore their opinion should be discounted. A bit like misogynist describing angry women as 'hysterical' in a bid to discredit any opinion or complaint they might have.

 

.

[dreamingoftigers]

Quite.

 

And it only takes a quick read through any selection of threads on these forums to see many examples of it being used thus. When an OW/OM finds they aren't getting the support or sympathy they expected, they sum up the whole thing with only flouncy sentence including the word' bitter' - and it isn't meant constructively as far as I can see

 

The suggestion appears to be that any BS can't have an objective view of any affair because they have been betrayed and therefore their opinion should be discounted. A bit like misogynist describing angry women as 'hysterical' in a bid to discredit any opinion or complaint they might have.

 

.

 

I will say that it isn't universal. That people like LFH weren't using the term to offend or dismiss.

 

But by an extension of the "you can't be objective because you are bitter/betrayed etc." is kind of nonsensical. By that logic an OW/OM can't be objective about it because they can have clouded judgment due to WS influence and WS can't be "objective" about it because they are participating in the exact same thing!

 

So the only people that might be in-theory "objective" are fWS who often tell WS to smarten up, similar to BS and those who have never participated in an affair but then they "don't get it because they haven't been there."

 

So, in essence, it's a very small group of people that can "help" WS. and most of them tell WS, OW/OM to take responsibility too. Either get out or stay in.

[waterwoman]

I will say that it isn't universal. That people like LFH weren't using the term to offend or dismiss.

 

 

Yes, I agree with that.

[buckeyeblue]

but there's a serious disconnect somehow.

 

LFH - Well, now, THERE'S a statement I can agree with!!

[buckeyeblue]

Morals are not something absolute which you so clearly illustrated here.

 

Ahh, the classic statement of someone devoid of a moral compass. The thing is, morals ARE black and white - you either have a moral code or you don't. They are not situational.

[Spark1111]

I wish sometimes we could see a thread on the other side that says, you know, some BS will never get over it. You are destroying their whil being even if you don't think thats "reasonable". The level of hurt may consume them for the rest of their lives.

 

Now there's a way to accuse BS of being consumed by it that's not insulting and puts the onus back on the affair parties where it belongs.

 

Some people love too deeply and too long to ever recover from their world becoming a lie. It can be a sign of what *good people* they were that they are so damaged. People with just a bit more selfishness and self presevation who don't give themselves entirely may recover more easily.

 

my father walked away from mom for a variety reasons, some could even say justified.

 

She is bitter beyond belief as he was the only man she would ever love, ever even entertain loving and she loved him through fire and brimstone.

 

Yes, she is bitter, but it masks a pain that knows no end.

[buckeyeblue]

my father walked away from mom for a variety reasons, some could even say justified.

 

She is bitter beyond belief as he was the only man she would ever love, ever even entertain loving and she loved him through fire and brimstone.

 

Yes, she is bitter, but it masks a pain that knows no end.

 

This made my cry. I love my H beyond belief, even after everything he has done. It is absolutely killing me to divorce him.

[Act Two]

 

But by an extension of the "you can't be objective because you are bitter/betrayed etc." is kind of nonsensical. By that logic an OW/OM can't be objective about it because they can have clouded judgment due to WS influence and WS can't be "objective" about it because they are participating in the exact same thing!

 

So the only people that might be in-theory "objective" are fWS who often tell WS to smarten up, similar to BS and those who have never participated in an affair but then they "don't get it because they haven't been there."

 

So, in essence, it's a very small group of people that can "help" WS. and most of them tell WS, OW/OM to take responsibility too. Either get out or stay in.

 

Right, and isn't that nonsensical because regardless of which part of the triangle you come from, your perspective will be changed or skewed. Your advice and experience may not be always perceived well (not you, specifically) but should not be discounted per se because of the experience of the poster. But doesn't it all boil down to the intent (to help or to harm) behind the post?

 

Sometimes posts are harsh but still meant to help and the OP should not be dismissed because of their experience. When the posts are meant to belittle another (e.g. "you are a worthless &@#@ because you did x," or maybe something even more subtle but attacks a person at their core), well, then you have one of the 4 horsemen!

[Woggle]

Morals can be subjective but at the risk of sounding judgmental I think that honesty and integrity especially towards somebody who has trusted you enough to marry or commit to you should be a universal. Have threesomes every night with different people for all I care but don't lie to people and deceive them.

 

This is why I think the lies and deception are part of the thrill for cheaters. For any kind of sexual lifestyle there are people out there who will be interested and will do it with honesty and integrity so what is hard about just being straight from the start.

 

I am open minded about many things but playing with people's emotions and feelings is not one of them.

[BetrayedH]

If only the world was that simple.

 

It is that simple.

[BetrayedH]

This is a post I posted on another forum on the subject. I hope it will clarify what I am talking about. Even if we are on different sides of the EMR triangle, the same self-help techniques can be used to deal with emotions that are causing more harm than help.

 

"What we think influences our feelings.

 

I was having feelings of resentment towards Neo. I could:

 

a) continue to let those feelings fester

 

b) expect him to change things so they would go away

 

c) end our relationship so the source of resentment would be out of my life

 

d) look at my thought patterns and see if by changing the way I was thinking about my situation I could minimize the resentment I was feeling.

 

By changing our thoughts we can change our feelings and behaviors.

 

I decided on option d).

 

I accepted that I am every day choosing to stay in a relationship with Neo. It is my own choice. He is still married and yet I am choosing to be with him. I am responsible for that choice, not he.

 

I decided that resentment was a feeling which was harmful to our relationship and therefore it is my responsibility to not indulge in that feeling and actively work towards not allowing myself to go there.

 

Neo does treat me well. I have no complaints. He is moving forward with counseling and I want to support him in that and give our relationship the best chance it has to succeed."

 

I find it interesting that none of your four options actually involves talking with your AP about your relationship, your expectations, your hopes and dreams of a future and how you're going to work together towards them.

 

I fail to see how your choice to "think about it differently" is any different than what the typical OW does. The fact is that you can't think about it too much at all because then you would have to twist your mind into a pretzel to find a way to be ok with what you're doing (shake up that moral relativity compass) and if you think too much then you might realize that the MM is the only one who wins. And we cannot put any pressure on poor Neo; he's in counseling and all and needs support. Poor thing. Can you imagine how much it would suck to have a wife and family and have another woman who quietly knows her place as my side piece of ass?

[BetrayedH]

I see nothing wrong with having sex with a MM

 

And this is the part where, somewhere along the line, the little (unmarried) prince and princess fairytale you had as a child went seriously wrong. Your moral compass changed to one of those Magic Eight balls that answered you with, "Yes, No, Maybe So."

 

To stay on topic, believing it's wrong to have sex with another person's spouse doesn't make us "bitter" so what's your point?

[BetrayedH]

What within you makes you need to reach out and insult me by calling me "my side piece of ass"? Perhaps it's time you look within you and try to understand why you thought that was a good reply in a serious discussion.

 

Why should I think you would be insulted when you've made it clear that you see nothing wrong with sleeping with a married man? Or perhaps it is actually offensive to you?

 

You continue to amaze me that with all of your introspection, you're still stuck in stage one: denial.

[BetrayedH]

I don't know if you are aware of it but most of my spare time is spent running a forum for participants in EMRs. I have also participated for years on other forums and read every book I could get my hand on. I spend a lot of time thinking and learning in depth about EMRs. The knowledge and understanding I have gathered has helped me solve the struggle between my heart and my mind which once brought me to these boards. When a new issue arises, I/we deal with it, just like in any other relationship.

 

Yes, this is the "twisting your head into a pretzel" part I mentioned.

[BetrayedH]

Yeah, as much as I know about a subject as much as I can twist it to fit my needs... it is called "building your on moral values in the run"!

 

I would tend to agree. I highly doubt that Trinity grew up thinking that being an affair partner was a morally good and right thing to do. She claims that her moral compass hasn't shifted. I don't believe that. In fact, I think she very consciously did a lot of introspection (read books, etc) to permit the shift. And if her morals really have been this way since childhood, then I suspect some serious FOO issues.

 

Trinity, I don't go seeking you out for confrontation because I understand that we're not going to change each others' minds. But if you're going to come into a thread on the infidelity forum about bitter betrayed spouses and try to make your case, you can expect that we're going to view that as stirring the pot and I have no problem challenging your assertions here.

[BetrayedH]

My point is that by staying in victim mode which is often perpetuated in infidelity forums like this one we deny ourselves the opportunity to personal growth and we get stuck long term in negative emotions such as bitterness and resentment.

 

I shared some of the self help techniques I've learnt in the Twelve Step program and was hoping it could benefit others even if they are on other sides of the EMR triangle than I presently am on.

 

Ok. We cross-posted and I can see why you felt it ok to post here.

 

Where I would disagree with you on this is the concept that we (whomever that is) are stuck in victim mode or stuck long term in negative emotions like bitterness or resentment.

 

Some BSs here are fresh to the game and have justified anger or resentment about having some part of their lives wasted because of someone else's deception. They still have processing to do and don't need to be encouraged to get over it. I suspect that they would love to be over it but this nonsense was thrust upon us by people that didn't care if they hurt us. You don't get to punch us in the mouth and then complain about how long we bleed on the carpet. We'll heal in our own good time.

 

As for BS posters that have been here longer term, I think the vast majority of us have an interest in helping other BSs. Sometimes that's direct support for a newbie BS and sometimes it's by virtue of influencing a WS or AP to stop their unhealthy and destructive behavior (which I also think benefits the WS/AP). Again, this is not "stuck" in anything and we don't need a 12-step program as we aren't the people in the equation that are broken.

 

Are there exceptions? Most certainly. Just as there are bitter and stuck people on the other points of the triangle. The original poster to this thread is a newbie that doesn't much appreciate being referred to as bitter. I agree with her.

[waterwoman]

They still have processing to do and don't need to be encouraged to get over it. I suspect that they would love to be over it....

 

 

Amen to that!

[Decorative]

Mmm how to make this digestible for you... lets say that we don't want to hear from a OW how do we need to get over something like a raped woman would not like to hear the same message from a raper... would you understand that?

 

Ooh. That is a crystal clear analogy.

[bentnotbroken]

Mmm how to make this digestible for you... lets say that we don't want to hear from a OW how do we need to get over something like a raped woman would not like to hear the same message from a raper... would you understand that?

 

 

Better yet........ a rapist who thinks they did nothing wrong, it wasn't their fault nor their responsibility.

[woinlove]

Just trying to help those BSs who have a problem with bitterness overcome it, that's all. If a BS doesn't want to be helped, it doesn't matter how much information that is shared. That's why I wondered what benefits are to be gained by hanging on to victim mode and bitterness.

 

Trinity, your posts have taken this thread off topic for the last few pages. The thread was doing pretty well on sticking to the topic of using the word bitter to label individual and groups of posters on LS. Maybe start a new thread if you want to give advice (on anything but whether to label other posters as bitter) or discuss moral relativism. Most won't be able to find those topics here if they go by the OP and the pages of discussion that follow, but if you started a new thread on the topics you want to discuss, then anyone could find it and contribute if they wanted.