"The End of Courtship" - The New York Times affirms "hang out" is the new "date".

January 13, 2013

Japan has a celibacy problem if anything. 40 percent of guys over 20 are virgins.

Yeah, I heard its really bad over there, to the point its having an effect on the population growth in the country.

January 13, 2013

I think when someone says they are hanging out they are saying it is casual and they are open to other opportunities. If they are dating then it is more serious.

A date is a chance to impress and court someone. More work and more pressure. A hangout is a chance for free sex.

January 13, 2013

I think when someone says they are hanging out they are saying it is casual and they are open to other opportunities. If they are dating then it is more serious.

A date is a chance to impress and court someone. More work and more pressure. A hangout is a chance for free sex.

I hold to a retrospective theory of weather something will be considered a date or hanging out.

When people start out "hanging out" with a group of friends.... then end up dating. They don't date the beginning of their relationship to whenever they went on a first "date". They mark it as the times the hung out, and will refer to those as having been dates. Even when at the time they did not think of them that way.

It's just like the way some married people have a very romantic idea of what it was like when they first met their spouse to be. It all seems so simple and preordained looking back.

January 13, 2013

All of my relationships NEVER started with a date. Thinking back to all of them, we were always hanging out, sometimes alone, sometimes with friends, sometimes even with family and then we eventually became a relationship. With my most recent ex, we didn't actually go on what is a real 'date' until after we had already decided to be in a relationship.

I've never had a guy I was in a relationship with ever come up to me and say 'would you like to go on a date?'

The pro, IMO, is that it's a more laid back atmosphere for both people. No one's expecting anything. This, of course, works well if both people feel the same way about each other rather than one person crushing hard and the other feeling nothing. The con is that you don't know the intention of the other person until someone makes a move.

I think this manner of relationships getting started is quite common. I've heard some similar anecdotes from women and men who have had multiple LTRs and some are married. They have never really "dated"...the relationships just happened naturally and ran their course naturally. Nothing is forced. It's much easier for both people (if they're on the same page) to just be themselves and have fun and enjoy each other's company, instead of worrying about "don't do this!" and "when do I do that??" and so on.

Casual dating is much like the above, but with a bit more structure...e.g. the guy does actually ask the girl out, among other things. The intent is clearer, without losing the potential fun and keeping pressure low or at zero.

"Traditional" courtship (I'd call it old-fashioned courtship instead) has had one foot in the grave for 15-25 years here in the United States, so I kinda agree with the NYTimes article on that point. I also agree that some technology and social media has had some influence on that in recent years...they make it easier for some people to get what they want w/o sticking their necks out so much. Tech is not a cause though; those people likely already had the mindset.

However, I think it depends not only on generation as others mentioned, but also on where you live in the U.S., as well as the social circles you associate with. The U.S. is very diverse and that trickles down to environments and social circles. As for locations...I think that the "hang out" or "hookup" culture is far more prevalent in large, liberal, fast-paced urban areas like New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Chicago...and less common in rural areas such as Kansas or Montana, as well as the Bible Belt. Whereas casual dating is that "middle ground" that's pretty common everywhere in the country.

January 13, 2013

Yes, that is how it was when I was dating. We dated people in our social circle, hanging out, pairing off. My eventual H was one of those, but it got much more intense, and it never broke off. But he never asked me out on a "date" initially. He just made a move on me one time, when we were hanging out, when both of us were finally single. He had flirted heavily from the beginning, though.

And that was over 20 years ago!

January 13, 2013

Game shows where women give head and spit semen into cups? The news where women are naked? Sorry but that's gross, what is wrong with keeping somethings private? There is being comfortable with sex and then there is unabashed attention-seeking. And btw what do the men do are there game shows where they give women head, do they strip down during this weird newscasts as well?

I wouldn't agree to "hang out" with a guy I wanted to date, I did do that in college and stuff, but all of my real relationships started with being asked on a DATE. It still happens. The problem now is that people are treated as children until they are like 30 and so they act like it.

January 13, 2013

Despite the term hang out, I really don't see one-on-one dating as the more adult approach.

To get to know someone, to learn about them, and to build a relationship with them requires spending time around them without an agenda.

Dating is formal, with assigned roles and proscribed behaviors. Doesn't it seem rigid and stifling? Should this be your first interaction with another person?

January 13, 2013

Dating is formal, with assigned roles and proscribed behaviors. Doesn't it seem rigid and stifling? Should this be your first interaction with another person?

Dating is whatever you make it. I've never been on a "rigid" date. It's always laid-back and fun, even if we're at a fancy place. To me, a date is about taking yourselves out of the everyday and doing something special and fun with a special person.

And some of my best dates cost nothing and were very open ended. Some of my early dates with my ex were just walking along the lake in summertime, sitting or lying down in the grass under a tree and talking for hours. There was nothing stifling about it. It was very freeing.

January 13, 2013

I am trying to remember if I ever started a LTR with a proper "date" where I didn't already know him. And I can't. I knew the guy. And even if I didn't I asked him to hangout with me and friends or do something besides dinner/movies.

For me I like seeing people in their natural habitat. At a concert or disco. Out having drinks with their friends or mine. I never have a problem on dates talking or feelings comfortable but the shy guys I tend to like sure do.

In highschool I wasn't allowed to date. Finally near 18 my parents realized I had been with my ex for 2 years and finally let me hangout with him.

So after moving out at 18 I had to figure it out for my next relationship. He was a piercer so of course I kept going in to see him. After he finally noticed me, he asked for a date.

January 13, 2013

This **** is old news.

How to Ask a Girl Out | The Art of Manliness

It's as if girls don't want to be treated with respect. When they are treated with respect, they freak out and say the guy is "too clingy". Not surprise, they're used to meeting some hot guy in a bar, being plowed by him later, him not calling again, and ask "where have all the good men gone"?

Can't build a relationship out of a house of cards.

great link. I think things are only getting worse for those "dating"

I truly believe in courting, in chivalry. in being a gentlemen. in doing things old school. getting dressed up, making it a date. sitting next to my date at a nice restaurant and looking into her eyes and connecting with her. but men dont need to put so much effort to screw a girl today. I also think are pu-ssies today. too much paka paka. but not many are doers.

hanging out is when I whip my salami out of my pants for her to munch on when were in her bedroom. its not dating. far from it.

I was very successful when I was OLD. they told me there are no more gentlemen out there. they even said there arent many "men" today. men today have gotten to feminine. when I brought them a rose they would be in heaven.

I blame both sides. women changed completely and men see the opportunity and take advantage of it. they screw them and move on because they can. I know I could have had a different hole to screw every week. I have animosity towards women and the way they behave today.

women used to be more stable but today its bad.

January 13, 2013

Dating is whatever you make it. I've never been on a "rigid" date. It's always laid-back and fun, even if we're at a fancy place. To me, a date is about taking yourselves out of the everyday and doing something special and fun with a special person.

And some of my best dates cost nothing and were very open ended. Some of my early dates with my ex were just walking along the lake in summertime, sitting or lying down in the grass under a tree and talking for hours. There was nothing stifling about it. It was very freeing.

If I met a woman and found her attractive and interesting I might want to get to know her better. For me, starting a courtship (implied by the word date) would be the wrong way to go. If I barely know her she's not someone special.

My larger point on this is that meeting significant others in small social groups and getting to know them over time is, and has always been, common. Calling it a hang out does not make it new or bad.

It also does not rule out pleasant one-on-one dates like you described

Edited January 13, 2013 by Bristolius

January 13, 2013

Despite the term hang out, I really don't see one-on-one dating as the more adult approach.

To get to know someone, to learn about them, and to build a relationship with them requires spending time around them without an agenda.

Dating is formal, with assigned roles and proscribed behaviors. Doesn't it seem rigid and stifling? Should this be your first interaction with another person?

I sort of get what you are saying, but for me not dating a girl and just hanging out is a good way to become friends. Which is okay if you want to be just friends, but it doesn't seem like a good idea if you want to possibly go further.

January 13, 2013

You bought them a rose on the first date? A lot of the girls I know would call that "clingy" behavior.

not the women I went out with. in fact it was the opposite. not only because of these traits that I have but because im chivalrous and a gentleman and I know how to treat a woman and care for her that I had a lot of success with women when I was dating. they LOVED it. they loved that I treated them like a lady. they all went gaga when I brought them a rose. always a kiss on a first date and most times before the end of the date. I know how to court a woman.

I also make sure to never date a feminist and I only dated women older than me and they were looking for a guy like me. I was never single for very long. never more than a week or two.

January 13, 2013

I've only used the term "date" to make it clear to a woman that I am romantically interested in her.

Those women who are romantically interested in me have had zero problem accepting my asking them for a date.

Those who freak usually are not interested in me at all romantically.

January 13, 2013

not the women I went out with. in fact it was the opposite. not only because of these traits that I have but because im chivalrous and a gentleman and I know how to treat a woman and care for her that I had a lot of success with women when I was dating. they LOVED it. they loved that I treated them like a lady. they all went gaga when I brought them a rose. always a kiss on a first date and most times before the end of the date. I know how to court a woman.

I also make sure to never date a feminist and I only dated women older than me and they were looking for a guy like me. I was never single for very long. never more than a week or two.

Here is a secret.

If you make her panties moist you can pretty much do anything & she will find a reason to gaga over it.

January 14, 2013

I have mixed thoughts about this.

On the one hand, when did people ever really "date"? Most people back in the good old days met through social circle. Usually by the time you took her out on a "real" date, you both knew you liked each other. The attraction and connection really was built up from the "hanging out" you did before your date.

People might have held out for sex later though a few generations ago though.

On the other hand, it astounds me how low women's standards are today in some important ways. Many young women put up with douchey behavior from the guys in their life. I actually blame you women (and not the guys, but you women) for this as you are the gate-keepers of sex. You as a gender are also encouraging callous behavior. Many guys aren't going to want to take a girl they just met on a date if they are suspecting that the guy before her carried her out of the bar the night they met and took her home, and then hooked up with her commitment-free for a few months (which happened to one of the women in the article). Yes, even the guys who would be more relationship-minded.

You'd be astounded how we men can be inspired to rise to the occasion for you women, but that's not going to happen if you set the bar so low.

Some of you might be up in arms over this, but how would you ladies feel "hooking up" with a guy for NSA sex knowing he was taking other girls out for fancy dinners--with or without getting sex from them? No one wants to play the sucker.

I'm mostly in agreement. The one part where I may disagree is that I don't really think a man needs to "rise to the occasion" (or either party, really) until a fairly strong bond, familiarity, and/or commitment has already been secured.

I don't particularly care if a woman extensively engages in casual sex before she meets me, but if she's given her time and body to other men without commitment and without requiring the man to fork over much money or effort, I have little incentive to give much money or effort of my own. It's simply wrong to be expected to be "treated like a lady" when your actions are anything but ladylike. I came to this conclusion very early on in my dating life when I'd attend college parties and watch people go upstairs to "use a bedroom" mere minutes after meeting. The first thing I thought was "There's going to some other guy not long from now who is going to be pulling out her chair and paying for her dinner." The thought amused me but also made me realize that I should avoid being "that guy," because he is, for lack of a better word, a sucker. That's why for a long time many of my posts on LS centered around the topic of encouraging men to try "informal" dating and to avoid paying for the woman generally. Doing so isn't necessary anyway provided you have a sufficiently broad social network and get invited to (or arrange) events where members of both sexes will congregate. I've had successful short-term AND long-term relationships without dating formally, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Assuming that this article describes a phenomenon that is by-and-large true, I for one am glad that traditional dating is choking out its last breaths.

January 14, 2013

Good riddance. "Dating" was an awkward concept at its core, pretty uncomfortable if you ask me. I'd much rather just spend a night cuddling and watching **** on netflix than at a stuffy restaurant.

January 14, 2013

Good riddance. "Dating" was an awkward concept at its core, pretty uncomfortable if you ask me. I'd much rather just spend a night cuddling and watching **** on netflix than at a stuffy restaurant.

How do you plan on getting to that point? Just "hanging out" with a friend and making moves on them, and going from there? lol

January 14, 2013

How do you plan on getting to that point? Just "hanging out" with a friend and making moves on them, and going from there? lol

Here's the way I see it: if you can't bother with the commitment it takes to be a good friend, and if you didn't really want to be a friendship with them anyways, you can't, or shouldn't, bother with the commitment it takes to be in a healthy relationship. You always could go with the whole cheesy dating process. The thing is, I feel like they often fall apart unless you put a ton of effort into them, or unless you're already spending a lot of time together. And sometimes those who date forget to build an actual friendship to get their relationship based on.

January 14, 2013

I'm in my twenties and find that indeed with the advent of social media, online dating sites etc. people do indeed have a more lax mentality about dating and people are more into "hanging out" instead of formal dates.

I for one am more traditional and find the formal courtship process more ideal. I don't need to go to a fancy dinner on our first date, I hate the movies for a date. I'd prefer if we could grab coffee, do lunch, check out an exhibit, do something by daylight, that is casual, but fun, where we can talk and get to know each other. Then if we're feeling each other, then we can be more intimate and dress up and go out to a nice restaurant, have some wine, nice ambiance etc.

I met a guy last year with whom I exchanged numbers. He attempted to ask me at 11pm if I wanted to come to his house and rent a Red Box. I didn't bother to speak to him again. The hang out culture also assumes and puts one in situations where sex is expected/easier. No thanks. After a few proper dates, after we've known each other a bit and are comfortable then I have no issues with just hanging out at your place but the FIRST time we meet...get outta here! That to me makes me think you have one thing on your mind and in my experience, it's true. I have fallen into that trap before but as I've gotten older I don't accept that and have found men more serious about a relationship, or the men I like anyway, want to get to know you and hang out with you on neutral territory and not on their couches or yours.

January 14, 2013

Here's the way I see it: if you can't bother with the commitment it takes to be a good friend, and if you didn't really want to be a friendship with them anyways, you can't, or shouldn't, bother with the commitment it takes to be in a healthy relationship. You always could go with the whole cheesy dating process. The thing is, I feel like they often fall apart unless you put a ton of effort into them, or unless you're already spending a lot of time together. And sometimes those who date forget to build an actual friendship to get their relationship based on.

I think what might be getting asked is how are you going to move from friendship to couple? It has been my experience that if you are friends with a girl and you try to go further it doesn't work, and not only that but the friendship is often lost as well.

January 26, 2013

The worst part of the new paradigm is the deniability. Men can hang out with, fool around with a woman and then fade. Then say what we weren't dating.

Women can hang around with, be wine'ed and dine'ed, and fool around... Then fade and be like what we weren't dating? :\

January 26, 2013

I'm sure it's totally healthy to base your relationship and dating views on the opinions of the New York Times and HBO.

January 26, 2013

I'm sure it's totally healthy to base your relationship and dating views on the opinions of the New York Times and HBO.

I am a little biased since what this article says is in accord with my experiences over the last ten years or a bit more. In my experience, most relationships long and short that I have had grew out of a situation of just "hanging out". I have never had a relationship which started from explicitly romantic dating.

Off OLD I've went on some productive dates, in the sense that I got to know someone and weather or not I wanted to see them again. However never has a relationship started that way for me.

I guess I'm not the only one.

Perhaps the truth is there is more than one way for a relationship to start and grow. That not "dating" per se is just as healthy as going on dates for the express purpose of finding a romantic partner.

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"The End of Courtship" - The New York Times affirms "hang out" is the new "date".

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