WayHuge Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 I am really looking for some help because I think I’m about to go crazy. Sorry this is so long… I have been dating the same woman for almost 4 years. We are both in our early 40’s with kids from prior relationships. We still live in separate houses since we haven’t been able to successfully coordinate moving in together due to kids, etc. Everything about our relationship is great in my opinion except for one thing: I just can’t deal with her anger. When she’s not angry at me, we get along very well. When she’s angry at me, it’s positively hell in my opinion. I really believe she has issues managing her anger. When I’ve brought the topic up in the past, she says that we have a “difference of opinion” on the topic or that I’m being “overly dramatic” and acts very defensive. Below is an excerpt from a recent disagreement. We have a similar disagreement about once a month. This disagreement started the evening of day 1 at her house and went on for nearly a week. It still hasn’t been fully resolved. The disagreement started over a few comments that were made by her while we were cleaning up after dinner about how I didn’t like going to the gym late in the evening. I’m typically gone 11 hours a day for work and really don’t feel like heading back out to the gym after dinner, I’d prefer to stay home. I became frustrated with her comments and said something along the lines of “fine, let’s go to the gym then”. It was about 2000 in the evening. I went to get my shoes and put them on to get my gym bag out of the car to change into my gym clothes. She came into the mud room where I was putting on my shoes and seemed annoyed and asked me what I was doing. I told her “putting on my shoes so I can get my gym bag out of the car so we can go to they gym”. Now she seems really annoyed but she doesn’t say anything more. After changing into my gym clothes and both of us getting in the car to head to the gym, I asked her what was wrong. She refused to tell me what was wrong and we rode to the gym in silence. I also asked her on the way home what was wrong and asked her if she was upset that we went to the gym. She said, yes, that was what she was upset about and then told me I “had to know” that was why she was upset. I told her I wasn’t a mind reader and asked her why she was upset about going to the gym. She became rather defensive insisting that I should know and we eventually agreed to drop the discussion. After returning home from the gym, she still seemed really annoyed. I went to take a shower and came to bed to find her in bed with the lights out in the room and her looking like she was asleep. I crawled into bed in the dark and didn’t bring up anything at the time since I figured she was still very angry at me. The next morning I woke up and got dressed and went to work without showering, since I had showered the night before. Text exchange the morning of Day 2 after the disagreement the prior evening: 0936 Me: How’s your morning? Busy day 4u? 1012 Her: I don’t know I guess my day is great, semi busy 1046 Her: Apparently your credit card has been getting charged for tanning at the gym… they caught it and reversed all the charges so it should be good now, just an fyi. 1103 Me: Glad ur day is great. Glad they caught the tanning issue. 1117 Her: I don’t know what your little hissy fit is all about… we are in the kitchen 1 minute talking about working out then you’re throwing a little childish tantrum in the mud room. And because I’m annoyed so you have to get mad and now you won’t speak to me, storm out of the house in the morning and are being cold. Why don’t you just let me know when your little fit is finished. And if it has more to do with just a conversation about going to the gym by all means please let me know. But if you talking to me means being cold to me then don’t bother saying anything at all. 1124 Me: Not going to text fight with u. Note: She says I stormed out of the house. When I left the house in the morning I made sure to kiss her good bye and wish her a good day (she was still in bed) hoping she wouldn’t think I was storming out. I will admit that I was trying to avoid doing anything in the morning that could possibly set her off, since she still seemed really angry when we went to bed. She later told me that she felt I was ignoring her in the morning. There was no communication for over 24 hours following this exchange. I went to my house after work on Day 2 and Day 3 since I had my kids those nights. I knew she was super angry at me and I didn’t know why and I didn’t want to confront her about it when she was still so angry. The next contact was initiated by her via email at about 2030 the evening of Day 3, about 30 hours after our last contact. Email exchange from Day 3: 2030 Her: I don't know what the hell you are doing or why you are doing it. But I had always thought we were in agreement that a silent treatment in a relationship is wrong and damaging. You actually believe this more than me. Yet here you are doing it. I am so positively livid right now that you would treat our relationship this way, disrespecting and damaging it, especially after all the preaching that you do on communication. This is so incredibly damaging and i am so pissed off and disappointed that you have chosen this path. And not only chosen to give me the silent treatment, but not even tell me what the hell it is about. It surely can’t be because I was upset with your attitude about the gym... that would be pretty insane. I would expect this relationship to be more mature than my last and this is something that I used to live with and I will not do it again. If you would like to stop and attempt to repair the damage I feel you have now done, I’d suggest contact me soon. 2040 Me: I am not really sure how to respond to your email. One question for you: Do you honestly feel that you calling my concerns a "childish tantrum" and a "hissy fit" and then threatening me with breaking up and calling me immature creates an environment conducive to me opening up and sharing my feelings with you? 2045 Her: I didn't realize you had any "concerns" so no i didn't call your concerns anything. Childish tantrum and hissy fit is exactly how I feel you were acting. And I still do. I did not threaten a break up. 2050 Me: OK, let's try again Do you honestly feel that you calling my concerns a "childish tantrum" and a "hissy fit" and then threatening me with breaking up and calling me immature creates an environment conducive to me opening up and sharing my feelings with you? A yes or no answer would suffice 2055 Her: HMMMM, probably about the same as how you just spoke to me in your prior emails..... And while I may have spoken out loud what I felt you acted like, you did the same thing just without words, by laughing at me at the gym and storming out of my house in the morning and by giving a silent treatment. You can go ahead and throw out accusations that I don't create an environment for sharing feelings, but take a look at your own actions. So don't go there and pretend that just because you act one way and not the other that you are any more constructive than anyone else! I will not apologize for saying you had a hissy fit, it is exactly what i feel you did. And not only that but then to get mad cuz i'm annoyed... yes, childish. Now you won't "text fight" but email fighting is ok?? Not sure what your rules are anymore, they keep changing as we go along and seems to be whatever suits you, no consistency, it is very confusing for me, sound familiar? so since my kids will be home in 30 minutes... OK, let's try again, if you'd like to contact me and explain yourself, apologize and attempt to repair the damage feel free. And in my opinion there is now a ton of damage to repair. 2103 Me: So what do you feel I need to apologize for? This is not a sarcastic question. I really don't know. How is it my lone responsibility to contact you and to "attempt to repair the damage"? I thought we were in this together?!? No, I don't agree with email fighting either, but here we are... This was the end of the exchange that evening. The next discussion was in person on Day 4 in the afternoon and she was still fuming mad at me, but at least it didn’t turn super ugly. She refused to accept my apology or forgive me for anything I did and to this point (day 7) has refused to offer a sincere apology for her part in the argument. I’m not really sure what to do. I love her a lot but I’m really at the end of my rope with her anger and how she treats me when she’s angry.
imfine Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 You both seem pretty stubborn over this little argument. That being said, if she's over 40 & it happens consistently, she's probably having hormonal issues. Not excusing her, but she really can't help it. The whole perimenopausal thing lowers a girl's patience & increases irritability over just about everything. If it is her hormones, she doesn't like the way she feels either. Maybe try being aware of it & shift your responses accordingly. A compromise of sorts. Just like she might do for you if you're sick, tired, etc.
sabre80 Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 You may not like this but by the time I got to reading the email exchanges it looked more like you were the one escalating the argument into something it did not have to be. A simple response to her asking why you were giving her the silent treatment like "Babe I am not giving you silent treatment. I was backing off/closing off because I thought you were giving me the silent treatment" would have been better. You should always seek a common point of agreement as a lunching point for a discussion/argument. It is easier to get the other party to be sympathetic to your points if you base them on top of something they agree on. Obviously there is more to what you post but from what I read it was a misfire of communication. She actually appeared in the text/email conversation to be approaching you to resolve it rationally. Accusing her (whether allegation true or not) automaticly puts her on the defensive and you cant get her to back down as easy. 1
Andy_K Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 You're both as bad as each other. If anything, you're worse. Look, if someone's not in a good mood you can't shake them out of it or defend yourself with cold logic. That will get you precisely nowhere. It's pretty clear you don't really understand how women think. All you had to do here, was in the morning after the argument, say something along the lines of "Hey, I don't know if you're upset with me this morning, but I didn't mean to come across as angry last night so if I did I apologise for that. I was just stressed from work and didn't handle it as well as I could have. How about tonight we do something fun together to make up for it" It's not what you do that matters. It's how she perceives it. And you can't convince her that her perception is off with logic. You either apologise for coming across the wrong way, and explain what you were feeling, or you stop dating her.
Treasa Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 You can't expect her to change her perceptions, but my ex was like that, telling me I had done a LOT of damage (usually when we were arguing about something), and then would demand an apology and demand that I do a lot of butt kissing and making things right. I told him to F off after the first couple of times. I apologize when I feel like I've done something wrong and I'm sorry, not because someone demands it. I'd say go ahead and try again at attempting better communication with her, but if that doesn't work, find someone less argumentative. I can be kind of bitchy too at times, but I'm not like THAT.
Author WayHuge Posted January 10, 2013 Author Posted January 10, 2013 Thanks for all your excellent points! I appreciate it! You both seem pretty stubborn over this little argument. That being said, if she's over 40 & it happens consistently, she's probably having hormonal issues. Not excusing her, but she really can't help it. The whole perimenopausal thing lowers a girl's patience & increases irritability over just about everything. If it is her hormones, she doesn't like the way she feels either. Maybe try being aware of it & shift your responses accordingly. A compromise of sorts. Just like she might do for you if you're sick, tired, etc. Now that I read it from a different perspective, you're right, I was also being rather stubborn. Your point about hormonal issues is a good one. She's recently been having occasional night sweats and will sometimes open the window at night in the middle of the winter in the midwest just to stay cooled off. You may not like this but by the time I got to reading the email exchanges it looked more like you were the one escalating the argument into something it did not have to be. A simple response to her asking why you were giving her the silent treatment like "Babe I am not giving you silent treatment. I was backing off/closing off because I thought you were giving me the silent treatment" would have been better. You should always seek a common point of agreement as a lunching point for a discussion/argument. It is easier to get the other party to be sympathetic to your points if you base them on top of something they agree on. Obviously there is more to what you post but from what I read it was a misfire of communication. She actually appeared in the text/email conversation to be approaching you to resolve it rationally. Accusing her (whether allegation true or not) automaticly puts her on the defensive and you cant get her to back down as easy. Some excellent points here. Thanks! You're right, I did a horrible job of acknowledging her feelings, which most likely just made her more defensive and allowed a fairly simple argument to escalate to a point it never should have reached. You're both as bad as each other. If anything, you're worse. Look, if someone's not in a good mood you can't shake them out of it or defend yourself with cold logic. That will get you precisely nowhere. It's pretty clear you don't really understand how women think. All you had to do here, was in the morning after the argument, say something along the lines of "Hey, I don't know if you're upset with me this morning, but I didn't mean to come across as angry last night so if I did I apologise for that. I was just stressed from work and didn't handle it as well as I could have. How about tonight we do something fun together to make up for it" It's not what you do that matters. It's how she perceives it. And you can't convince her that her perception is off with logic. You either apologise for coming across the wrong way, and explain what you were feeling, or you stop dating her. Excellent points here, too. I agree, I could have easily diffused things in the morning. I certainly had the opportunity to do that. Regarding perceptions; you're right, I shouldn't waste my time trying to apply logic to her perceptions. It will just make her more defensive. I work as an engineer, and my life is based in logic and facts. I have to remind myself that when dealing with an angry woman, logic and facts go out the window and perception is everything. You can't expect her to change her perceptions, but my ex was like that, telling me I had done a LOT of damage (usually when we were arguing about something), and then would demand an apology and demand that I do a lot of butt kissing and making things right.. Yeah, the demanding an apology and blaming the entire episode on me was a bit tough to take, which is probably why I responded the way I did. I guess I need to learn to look at the feelings behind the message, acknowledge them, and ignore the hurtful nature of the message. It seems we are like oil and water when we fight. I'm definitely one to clam up and try not to rock the boat (Thanks mom!) and she's very confrontational and becomes even more so if I don't acknowledge her anger and frustrations. 1
DC4 Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 It seems we are like oil and water when we fight. I'm definitely one to clam up and try not to rock the boat (Thanks mom!) and she's very confrontational and becomes even more so if I don't acknowledge her anger and frustrations. You guys are my ex and I. You 100% know the worst thing you can do is give her the silent treatment. I would rather be thrown in a deep fryer than given the silent treatment. At least you know that much and can work on it. You seem very receptive to opinions which makes me very much NOT my ex. 1
Author WayHuge Posted January 10, 2013 Author Posted January 10, 2013 You guys are my ex and I. You 100% know the worst thing you can do is give her the silent treatment. I would rather be thrown in a deep fryer than given the silent treatment. At least you know that much and can work on it. You seem very receptive to opinions which makes me very much NOT my ex. So true, she absolutely hates the silent treatment, or anything close to the silent treatment that she percieves as being the silent treatment. I try hard to keep an open mind. My perception on a topic may not be the most correct one by any means! I think I have this somewhat figured out. Typically I believe I do a pretty good job of acknowledging and validating her feelings on a daily basis which is why things go along so smoothly. Everything is great until... we fight Then at a time when she desperately needs me to acknowledge and validate her feelings, I clam up, stop acknowledging and validating her feelings and start trying to apply logic to the situation, which just makes things that much worse for her and she feels like I'm ignoring her and her needs. I will try my best to follow through and recognize the feelings behind her anger and acknowledge them without me being defensive or attempting to apply logic the next time we have a disagreement.
salparadise Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 You two are in a pattern where you're not arguing about a real or important issue that you have opposite perspectives on, you're arguing about nothing! There is an area of study call transactional analysis wherein each exchange is a transaction. When either of you says something there is an expectation for what will be said in return. If the expectation is met there is harmony and equilibrium, but when the return communication is not what is expected, just as if you were shortchanged as the grocery store, there is a problem. Then you proceed to continue communicating in this way as you grow angrier and more frustrated. This could be exasperated by enmeshment, where your personal boundaries have dissolved with respect to the other person and expectations have grown to the point of the other not being able to meet them. When a couple is at the point of automatically having very specific expectations of the other in terms of the nuances of what they say and precisely what is expected in each moment, there is probably enmeshment to some degree. It sounds like it's gong on here. 1
mavendark Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 You two are in a pattern where you're not arguing about a real or important issue that you have opposite perspectives on, you're arguing about nothing! There is an area of study call transactional analysis wherein each exchange is a transaction. When either of you says something there is an expectation for what will be said in return. If the expectation is met there is harmony and equilibrium, but when the return communication is not what is expected, just as if you were shortchanged as the grocery store, there is a problem. Then you proceed to continue communicating in this way as you grow angrier and more frustrated. This could be exasperated by enmeshment, where your personal boundaries have dissolved with respect to the other person and expectations have grown to the point of the other not being able to meet them. When a couple is at the point of automatically having very specific expectations of the other in terms of the nuances of what they say and precisely what is expected in each moment, there is probably enmeshment to some degree. It sounds like it's gong on here. How would you suggest the solution to this enmeshment is? After reading the OP's post and responses, I have realized that my boyfriend and I are in very similar situations as well, except he, unlike the OP does not realize that the silent treatment is horrible. I would give a million bucks for my boyfriend to realize, just as the OP did: Then at a time when she desperately needs me to acknowledge and validate her feelings, I clam up, stop acknowledging and validating her feelings and start trying to apply logic to the situation, which just makes things that much worse for her and she feels like I'm ignoring her and her needs.
salparadise Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 How would you suggest the solution to this enmeshment is? After reading the OP's post and responses, I have realized that my boyfriend and I are in very similar situations as well, except he, unlike the OP does not realize that the silent treatment is horrible. I would give a million bucks for my boyfriend to realize, just as the OP did: The solution is to get un-emmeshed, which probably means counseling. It's done by consciously practicing enforcement and respect of healthy boundaries and rolling back the overly specific expectations. Ideally, instead of each trying to impose their will on the other, they both would default to conceding what they want for the other person. My take on the OP's scenario is that the root of the issue lies in her having the expectation that he would go to the gym because she wanted him to go. Each person should have the right to decide for themselves, and if he didn't want to go he shouldn't need to feel like he has to give up his downtime after work in order to keep her happy. He conceded but was almost certainly transmitting the "I'm not happy about it" signal as he prepared to go. She had the expectation that not only should he go because she wanted him to, but he should be enthusiastic... so her expectations didn't even end with him going and she expected him to go and make her feel a certain way at the same time. The healthy exchange would have been... "sweetheart, I really don't want to go but I will do it for you." And she would say, "It's ok if you really don't want to, but if you go it would make me happy and I'll make your favorites cookies for you when we get back." This acknowledges his right not to go and she is not imposing her will on his time and preferences. 1
Divasu Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 My first thought after reading this was/is, 'why the big fuss on her part because you don't feel like going to the gym'? My perception of her reaction, is that she was very angry with you and I wonder where does that stem from exactly? From what you wrote, it doesn't sound like you were having a full-blow hissy fit about going to the gym. But rather, you just didn't feel like going. If you've been together for four years, is there a possibility that there are unresolved feelings of anger/resentment towards you on her part? What you initially described, took 4 days to resolve and I'm just wondering if there's a bigger picture we're not looking at here. Now, her mistake was keeping silent when you initially asked her what was wrong. Women are notorious for doing this, they think that their man should already know why she is upset. So, you are correct that you are NOT a mind reader. And that next time she is upset with you, she needs to speak up and tell you. The difficult part here, is that sometimes she is still processing why she is upset in her mind and trying to resolve it so that she doesn’t start screaming bloody hell. Even more confusing for the guy, is that sometimes he THINKS something is wrong, when there really isn't anything wrong. But, given this was right after the 'gym' incident, it's a high probability that she was mad. The 'silent treatment' you have to be very careful with. Too much of it is not good to do within a relationship. It's basically a slap in the face to the person on the receiving end. She will interpret it negatively and it will most likely cause resent to build and it will breed bitterness towards you. It is a highly destructive behavior when it involves personal relationships. Yes, everyone needs some quiet time to 'cool off' now and then. But it should not be used to inflict emotional punishment on someone. If you're giving her time to cool-off, a better approach would be to say that first, and then go silent. But, don't ignore her after she's 'cooled off’ and attempts to communicate with you. Because at that point she is reaching out to you and if you continue to ignore, she will feel dismissed and invalidated and that's a no-no. The bottom line here, is that men and women communicate very differently. Here’s a funny example on that very topic: He: What’s wrong? She: Nothing. He: What did I do wrong? She: Nothing, leave me alone! He: Why can’t you tell me? She: Cause YOU’RE the problem and I don’t want to talk about it! With time, patience, practice, self-discipline, love, trust and respect ---will hopefully bring about better communication and harmony. And even then, there is still more to learn.
salparadise Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 If you've been together for four years, is there a possibility that there are unresolved feelings of anger/resentment towards you on her part? What you initially described, took 4 days to resolve and I'm just wondering if there's a bigger picture we're not looking at here. It doesn't necessarily have to be anger/resentment toward him... it could be originating from someplace that has nothing to do with him, but is being projected onto him, perhaps because he serves a symbol of the true origin. Of course the true origin will not be available to her conscious thoughts and therefore the mysterious nature of this whole ordeal. Often in the enmeshed relationships (assuming this is what it is, but we don't know that), the partners have an unspoken contract that one (he in this instance) is responsible for the other's (her) happiness. Therefore, if she's not happy for any reason it must be his fault. So she unleashes her wrath and he is left trying to decipher the situation and bring her back to equilibrium. And it is typical that this recurs on a regular schedlule (he said it was about once a month). OP, how long into the relationship did this monthly pattern begin?
Divasu Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 It doesn't necessarily have to be anger/resentment toward him... it could be originating from someplace that has nothing to do with him, but is being projected onto him, perhaps because he serves a symbol of the true origin. Of course the true origin will not be available to her conscious thoughts and therefore the mysterious nature of this whole ordeal. Often in the enmeshed relationships (assuming this is what it is, but we don't know that), the partners have an unspoken contract that one (he in this instance) is responsible for the other's (her) happiness. Therefore, if she's not happy for any reason it must be his fault. So she unleashes her wrath and he is left trying to decipher the situation and bring her back to equilibrium. And it is typical that this recurs on a regular schedlule (he said it was about once a month). OP, how long into the relationship did this monthly pattern begin? Yes, you raise good points. That's why I am wondering if they have been together for four years, what has it been like otherwise (aside from it being "a similar disagreement about once a month").
todreaminblue Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) if someone repeated a text sentence to me with ok again and repeated a long sentence...i would consider it a combatant response......a yes or no answer will suffice......cough...... i would say either cough....choke splutter how is that for yes or no OR i am not retarded or simple or childish, i read your question the first time, please dont treat me like a child...... it is what you do to children to stress points when they are ignoring you..... I find the argument....blown out of proportion, grudges held on both sides, and childish on both sides.......sorry dont appear to be rude or judgmental, why didnt you just say you didnt want to go to gym, if you dont feel like it dont go.......you had resentment from the get go.....it carried over, and i have no judgements on why she reacted the way she did ...because i dotn know her.........seems orchestrated...doesn't even seem like a real argument or something to argue over.....thats my schizo affective about loveshack at the moment......so .....excuse that....so ignore what i just wrote.... just doesnt seem logical on either side...you pick battles and to me they ought to be important battles.where's the compromise?????even battles have compromise give and take at the front line......so to me...not a logical fight or logical or strategic end to this....or otherwise known as an empasse(even though i obviously cant spell the word you catch my drift) there's no winner or loser just stagnation till the next argument....and then it rocks on with added fuel of unresolved issues.....you need to work out issues you have with holding grudges too, some work on being condescending would help as well..... not only your partner it seems.....deb Edited January 11, 2013 by todreaminblue
Author WayHuge Posted January 11, 2013 Author Posted January 11, 2013 You two are in a pattern where you're not arguing about a real or important issue that you have opposite perspectives on, you're arguing about nothing! There is an area of study call transactional analysis wherein each exchange is a transaction. When either of you says something there is an expectation for what will be said in return. If the expectation is met there is harmony and equilibrium, but when the return communication is not what is expected, just as if you were shortchanged as the grocery store, there is a problem. Then you proceed to continue communicating in this way as you grow angrier and more frustrated. This could be exasperated by enmeshment, where your personal boundaries have dissolved with respect to the other person and expectations have grown to the point of the other not being able to meet them. When a couple is at the point of automatically having very specific expectations of the other in terms of the nuances of what they say and precisely what is expected in each moment, there is probably enmeshment to some degree. It sounds like it's gong on here. Totally agree on your first paragraph! When these arguments happen, they are typically blown way out of proportion and we fight about nothing! It drives me absolutely nuts! I know I have a contribution to it as well. Unfortunately it's really hard for me to not be defensive when she seems so angry at me about what I perceive as a very small issue. I also agree on the transactional analysis part. I think that may be exactly what is going on. I am definitely starting to feel enmeshed. It's why I have come to a crossroads with this relationship. My last relationship was with a woman who I think may have been a high functioning BPD, complete with disassociative behaviors and paranoid accusations (i.e. I would come home 30 min late from work and be accused of cheating). I killed myself to keep the peace in that relationship, and ended up completely and totally miserable before I ended it. I am seeing some similar signs in this relationship, and the red flag is getting close to the top of the flagpole. My take on the OP's scenario is that the root of the issue lies in her having the expectation that he would go to the gym because she wanted him to go. Each person should have the right to decide for themselves, and if he didn't want to go he shouldn't need to feel like he has to give up his downtime after work in order to keep her happy. He conceded but was almost certainly transmitting the "I'm not happy about it" signal as he prepared to go. She had the expectation that not only should he go because she wanted him to, but he should be enthusiastic... so her expectations didn't even end with him going and she expected him to go and make her feel a certain way at the same time.. I think this is quite accurate. I showed some frustration over going to the gym, and she was very annoyed that I didn't act like it was the best idea ever. I didn't really see my behavior as being a "hissy fit" as she called it, which led to me being offended and feeling the need to defend myself, and off we went. When we went to the gym, she totally sandbagged her workout, hopping on the elliptical at a slow pace while watching TV. She normally pushes herself very hard in workouts. I knew she was doing this because she was angry with me and as a way to get back at me, and I chuckled at her, which is her comment about "laughing at me at the gym". 3 days later she also shared another reason she was upset about going to the gym. Unknown to me we had the house alone to ourselves for the next hour after dinner. With two families of kids, alone time is hard to come by. I had no idea she didn't have one of her kids coming home in the next 10 min. This was another reason she was angry, and her anger at the time would have made more sense to me had she shared this with me.
Author WayHuge Posted January 11, 2013 Author Posted January 11, 2013 (edited) My first thought after reading this was/is, 'why the big fuss on her part because you don't feel like going to the gym'? My perception of her reaction, is that she was very angry with you and I wonder where does that stem from exactly? From what you wrote, it doesn't sound like you were having a full-blow hissy fit about going to the gym. But rather, you just didn't feel like going. This is my exact perception of what happened. Why is she so upset about something I see as so trivial? I honestly don't feel I was having a full blown hissy fit. I wasn't stomping around the house and slamming doors and pouting. I feel I merely vocally expressed some frustration over going to the gym without raising my voice or using any profanity or saying anything that I thought might result in a defensive response. If you've been together for four years, is there a possibility that there are unresolved feelings of anger/resentment towards you on her part? What you initially described, took 4 days to resolve and I'm just wondering if there's a bigger picture we're not looking at here. I'm not really sure if she has unresolved feelings of anger or resentment towards me. When I ask her about it she says "no". When I ask her if she feels satisfied with the way we resolve conflicts, she says "yes". I asked her if nothing changed with regards to how much we fight and how we resolve conflicts for the next 5 years, would she be satisfied with the relationship and she said "yes". It seems the status quo is working for her, but it's absolutely not working for me and I have told her that repeatedly for the past 18 months or so. Now, her mistake was keeping silent when you initially asked her what was wrong. Women are notorious for doing this, they think that their man should already know why she is upset. So, you are correct that you are NOT a mind reader. And that next time she is upset with you, she needs to speak up and tell you. The difficult part here, is that sometimes she is still processing why she is upset in her mind and trying to resolve it so that she doesn’t start screaming bloody hell. Even more confusing for the guy, is that sometimes he THINKS something is wrong, when there really isn't anything wrong. But, given this was right after the 'gym' incident, it's a high probability that she was mad. The 'silent treatment' you have to be very careful with. Too much of it is not good to do within a relationship. It's basically a slap in the face to the person on the receiving end. She will interpret it negatively and it will most likely cause resent to build and it will breed bitterness towards you. It is a highly destructive behavior when it involves personal relationships. Yes, everyone needs some quiet time to 'cool off' now and then. But it should not be used to inflict emotional punishment on someone. If you're giving her time to cool-off, a better approach would be to say that first, and then go silent. But, don't ignore her after she's 'cooled off’ and attempts to communicate with you. Because at that point she is reaching out to you and if you continue to ignore, she will feel dismissed and invalidated and that's a no-no. The bottom line here, is that men and women communicate very differently. Here’s a funny example on that very topic: He: What’s wrong? She: Nothing. He: What did I do wrong? She: Nothing, leave me alone! He: Why can’t you tell me? She: Cause YOU’RE the problem and I don’t want to talk about it! With time, patience, practice, self-discipline, love, trust and respect ---will hopefully bring about better communication and harmony. And even then, there is still more to learn. I agree, when I saw she was upset and her reason for being upset wasn't readily obvious to me, I asked her what was wrong. When she refused to tell me or say something along the lines of "I need a few minutes to collect my thoughts" I started to become frustrated. When she insisted that I "must know" then I was well on my way to angry. I even told her that "I have an idea what you're frustrated about, but I'm not sure, so it would be helpful if you could tell me". I was doing my best to not give her the silent treatment. Her text to me said said I was being cold to her and to not talk to her if I was going to be cold. I took her at her word. I had no idea what she might interpret as being cold, so I communicated nothing, waiting for her to hopefully cool off and restart the conversation. The next contact I received 30 hours later said I was giving her the silent treatment, even though the last thing she told me was not to speak to her unless I could to it in a normal and loving fashion. At this point I was horribly frustrated, and I let my frustrations show through my email response. It doesn't necessarily have to be anger/resentment toward him... it could be originating from someplace that has nothing to do with him, but is being projected onto him, perhaps because he serves a symbol of the true origin. Of course the true origin will not be available to her conscious thoughts and therefore the mysterious nature of this whole ordeal. This may well be it, and I think it goes back to her previously relationship of 18+ years. Per her description, it was hell, with her and her ex walking around constantly testy with each other and having major screaming matches with name calling, etc, about once a month (1/mth seems to be a pattern in her relationships perhaps?). She says she was constantly on the defensive with him, which explains her near immediate defensive and angry response to anything that she percieves as being an attack. I don't doubt that when I say or do something that she takes offense to, she paints me as her ex and automatically goes on the defensive, because in her mind things are about to get ugly. The question is, how can I get her to recognize this pattern? Often in the enmeshed relationships (assuming this is what it is, but we don't know that), the partners have an unspoken contract that one (he in this instance) is responsible for the other's (her) happiness. Therefore, if she's not happy for any reason it must be his fault. So she unleashes her wrath and he is left trying to decipher the situation and bring her back to equilibrium. And it is typical that this recurs on a regular schedlule (he said it was about once a month). OP, how long into the relationship did this monthly pattern begin? Very apt analysis. Thanks! The first incident where I noticed something became a bigger issue than it really should have been was about 6 months into the relationship. Similar incidents occured at rate of about once every 6 months for about the next 12 or 18 months at which point it progressed to once every 3 months or so. For the past 12 to 18 months it's been around once per month, and I frankly have had about all I can take of it. Yes, you raise good points. That's why I am wondering if they have been together for four years, what has it been like otherwise (aside from it being "a similar disagreement about once a month"). When we aren't fighting, everything goes very well. We have nearly identical interests, get along wonderfully, and our sex life is through the roof IMHO. If the rest of the relationship wasn't going along so well, I would have ended it a long time ago due to the way we fight. Edited January 11, 2013 by WayHuge
Author WayHuge Posted January 11, 2013 Author Posted January 11, 2013 i am not retarded or simple or childish, i read your question the first time, please dont treat me like a child...... Truthfully, I would have loved to have received this response instead of the one I did get. In my mind it would have put us on the road to resolution. I completely agree, I was being stubborn and my response was snide and out of line. At that point I was so horribly frustrated and seriously considering ending the relationship.
salparadise Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 I am definitely starting to feel enmeshed. It's why I have come to a crossroads with this relationship. My last relationship was with a woman who I think may have been a high functioning BPD, complete with disassociative behaviors and paranoid accusations (i.e. I would come home 30 min late from work and be accused of cheating). I killed myself to keep the peace in that relationship, and ended up completely and totally miserable before I ended it. I am seeing some similar signs in this relationship, and the red flag is getting close to the top of the flagpole. WayHuge, although I didn't say so in the earlier posts I was thinking the whole time that it sounded like BPD, and every bit of what I wrote came from my somewhat in-depth study of this disorder and being in relationship with someone who has it. I didn't want to apply the label based on so little information but I definitely recognized the features. I'm still not making any determination, but I do think that you're correct to suspect it. I assume you're familiar with the book, "Stop Walking On Eggshells" by Mason and Kreger? If not you should get a copy and read it.
salparadise Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 This may well be it, and I think it goes back to her previously relationship of 18+ years. Per her description, it was hell, with her and her ex walking around constantly testy with each other and having major screaming matches with name calling, etc, about once a month (1/mth seems to be a pattern in her relationships perhaps?). She says she was constantly on the defensive with him, which explains her near immediate defensive and angry response to anything that she percieves as being an attack. 18 years in the same pattern with someone else? That's pretty revealing, don't you think? I don't doubt that when I say or do something that she takes offense to, she paints me as her ex and automatically goes on the defensive, because in her mind things are about to get ugly. The question is, how can I get her to recognize this pattern? Nah, I don't think she painting you as her ex. The fact is that you are now in the same role as her ex at that time. It's more like you ARE the ex because you have taken his place. Getting her to see the pattern is not the answer, it's just going to piss her off if you try to tell her any of this is her fault, and even more so if you imply that she has serious issues or is flawed. BPDs are among the most difficult, probably THE most difficult to treat in therapy. The prognosis is not good if this is in fact what she has.
Keenly Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 It sounds like this woman is a selfish psychopath who starts a passive aggressive argument and then blames it on you. I wouldn't be able to put up with this "Princess" behavior. She feels like she is always right and you are always wrong. Its going to be this way forever I hope you realize, doesn't matter what you fight about. It will ALWAYS be your fault and she will NEVER take personal responsibility for her behavior. If some girl tried to pull the "you should know why I am mad at you" when I asked, I would say, alright you should know why I am breaking up with you, since you would rather be childish than communicative. 1
Author WayHuge Posted January 11, 2013 Author Posted January 11, 2013 WayHuge, although I didn't say so in the earlier posts I was thinking the whole time that it sounded like BPD, and every bit of what I wrote came from my somewhat in-depth study of this disorder and being in relationship with someone who has it. I didn't want to apply the label based on so little information but I definitely recognized the features. I'm still not making any determination, but I do think that you're correct to suspect it. I assume you're familiar with the book, "Stop Walking On Eggshells" by Mason and Kreger? If not you should get a copy and read it. I am pretty well versed in BPD after my last relationship, and own "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and several other books on the topic. I even joined "out of the FOG" when things were going down with my ex. With my ex, I tried to stay as long as I could since we had kids together, but I was totally and completely miserable and an absolute shell of my former self and finally picked myself up, dusted myself off, and filed for divorce. You are correct in saying that my current girlfriend displays some serious BPD traits. She has an incredibly hard time admitting to or apologizing for anything she might of done wrong, and is incredibly defensive whenever I say or do anything that she even takes the slightest offense to. Most of our "talks" revolve around her feelings and when I say anything that she doesn't like she immediately gets defensive and projects the issue back on to me. Statements like her statement from her last email absolutely reek of BPD IMHO: if you'd like to contact me and explain yourself, apologize and attempt to repair the damage feel free. And in my opinion there is now a ton of damage to repair. To say something like this even in the heat of battle says that I'm not doing what she needs me to do and that's all that matters to her. My feelings on any topic are absolutely irrelavant and it's my job to hurry up and fix it. (i.e. "stop being a screw up and get back here and behave the way you are supposed to!") Here's another BPD trait that she presents: Whenever we have conversations about touchy issues, she's typically on me on me on me about how I did this or that and refuses to accept any accountability until I finally get up and tell her I'm completely exasperated and don't know where to go from here with this relationship and start to walk out. Then almost immediately her defensiveness drops and we can start to talk about my concerns. It seems that for me to actually convince her that she might have had something to do with a particular situation, I essentially have to hold her nose in it. She has a definite fear of abandonment, too. Oh boy...
Keenly Posted January 11, 2013 Posted January 11, 2013 She is treating you like a child, you know that right?
Author WayHuge Posted January 11, 2013 Author Posted January 11, 2013 She is treating you like a child, you know that right? I've felt this for a while actually.
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