d'Argennes Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) I think this should be addressed considering that there are a fair number of women on this forum and life in general who do not understand the concept of the invisible man. Many males come onto this forum and describe how they feel "invisible" to women. Some may laugh it off as a narcissistic form of self perception, but the reasoning behind it is sound. When it comes to attraction, females are almost always judged by their looks first. Many women tend to undervalue themselves in terms of looks. Many women may say that they are ugly but to others, they are at least average. Many women *are* average statistically. There are many men that are attracted to average looking women. With a little makeup, an average looking women can easily turn to an above-average looking woman. From birth, females are often doted upon by their family members, friends, or extended network about how "cute" they are or "adorable". As they mature, this manifests itself in attention from strangers of the opposite sex. This latter tendency is accentuated more through sites such as Facebook where a female will post a picture and it is liked by multiple people and commented on showering the subject with praises on their looks. More often than not, a female will receive multiple likes from seemingly platonic male friends who are in actuality - orbiters. Females also may experience getting approached by men quite a number of times in their life. The average male is often not complimented on his attractiveness despite the fact that he is average. If so, those compliments tend to come from church ladies or friends of the parents - two parties that are irrelevant in attraction. The average male also tends to be clueless to IOIs, so even if interest is shown, it is not in an overt way which is how males often communicate. The female tendency to date "up" in terms of marketplace value manifest itself in all social circles. High school girls want to date sports athletes, college girls want to date the popular guy or the big man on campus, early 20s girls want to date the most dominant man in their social circle or the guy with the highest paying job. This is called hypergamy. This makes many young men feel disenfranchised because they do not understand its true nature. Females all across the spectrum want to date the guys at the top if they can. Most males do not want supermodel-looking women, just someone within their "league". Note, that I am talking about average looking males, not below average looking males. Below average looking males also tend to want average or above average looking women. Who are the guys are the top? The dominant. The *******s. The confident. The charismatic. The jerks. The Machiavellian. The devil-may-care. The aesthetic. The rich. The powerful. The socially elite. The top comprises of many different types of male in terms of personality but they all have social dominance and social presence as a defining characteristic. These are the type of guys that walk into a party with an entourage of lower-status males and have girls scream their name immediately. These are the types of guys that hold magnetic conversations. These are the types of guys that will immediately put down other opposing males that attempt to diminish their status. When you combine the female tendency of hypergamy, the high status male, the fact that women barely approach, and the feeling of disenfranchisement, you get the invisible man. This is what males all across the globe are feeling and have been feeling since being a boy on the playground. Edited December 15, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
normaldude Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 You made a valid point about how women like to date up. So very true. I do however see beautiful women with goofy looking guys. Women tend to like their friends, not strangers. I would suggest becoming friends with girls first. That works a lot better than just hitting on random girls. Attentions + Options = Standards Relationship Math
somedude81 Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Yup I'm invisible. Have been for my entire life.
Eternal Sunshine Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Women like to date up in terms of status. Men like to date up in terms of looks. Both sexes prioritize different things. Thus more pressure on men to to be successful and more pressure on women to be beautiful.
MrCastle Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 So do things that get you to stand out. Speak loud, be bold, dress better than the people in your circle. There are plenty of things to make your voice heard. I've realized it's better to generate any kind of response, whether positive or negative, than it is to just be another face in the crowd. I'd rather walk into a room and get noticed, with half the women saying "ew" and half of them saying "yum" than walk in and have all girls say "meh".
Author d'Argennes Posted January 7, 2013 Author Posted January 7, 2013 I've realized it's better to generate any kind of response, whether positive or negative, than it is to just be another face in the crowd. I'd rather walk into a room and get noticed, with half the women saying "ew" and half of them saying "yum" than walk in and have all girls say "meh". Definitely. There was some thread on this the other day in which I said that guys who elicit no emotional reaction are equivalent to white wallpaper.
MrCastle Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Definitely. There was some thread on this the other day in which I said that guys who elicit no emotional reaction are equivalent to white wallpaper. Yeah, apathy is what kills you. I've seen girls argue with guys, seem to have a genuine dislike for the man, only to end up dating him or hooking up with him. He generated an emotional response from her and eventually the negative swung into a positive. But the guy who generates no feeling at all, well...
TheZebra Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Yeah, apathy is what kills you. I've seen girls argue with guys, seem to have a genuine dislike for the man, only to end up dating him or hooking up with him. He generated an emotional response from her and eventually the negative swung into a positive. But the guy who generates no feeling at all, well... That's because the opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference.
MrCastle Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 That's because the opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference. Correct. When you hate someone, you're still emotionally invested in them. When I don't like someone, I use the apathy card. It's awesome
somedude81 Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 So I should go around calling all women cunt?
MrCastle Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) So I should go around calling all women cunt? No. Just stand for something. Be about something. Have strong convictions. I say and do things that I feel comfortable with. I don't think to myself "what would women like the most?". I live my own life. In class, I may say things that either women will agree with, or disagree with but respect me for coming out and having my own opinion, as opposed to being a yes man, etc. Strong personalities have that effect on people. Edited January 7, 2013 by MrCastle
JuneJulySeptember Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Yup. It's like that. The world sucks. If you're a guy at the top or at least near the median, you don't complain too much because at least you get some attention. If you're towards the bottom, then it's gonna suck. So, if you're the 'invisible man', what are you going to do about it? The way I see it, you (and I and the others) have three choices. 1) Kill Yourself 2) Reach lower. Personally, this has not worked for me. But it might for others. According to all the theories here, all men could have a harem if they kept just reaching down in the looks department. 3) Find someone who doesn't play the game. Notice I didn't include improvement as an option. Even if you become a doctor, your options won't go up THAT much. It's still more about looks. But I doubt any of the guys here are going to be a doctor. An engineer or a lawyer perhaps. But that won't do jack-squat. Anybody with common sense is improving themselves anyway. I'd venture to guess that the bitter guys are intent on improving themselves the most. They have the biggest chips on their shoulder. So, I suggest a combination of 2 & 3, while hitting on lots of women.
Eternal Sunshine Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 It's like when you start talking to a guy and all his questions are boring and lame. Like "so do you have any brothers or sisters?" yawn. It's much better for a guy to tell amusing stories...which he can't tell if he has no life.
ThaWholigan Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 I remember for years feeling like the invisible one. I was what the UK now probably calls an "inbetweener". I wasn't a misfit, nor the popular. I went to Boys School so the rules were slightly different for me - we were at a school that was surrounded by at least 4 girl's schools in the area, so we had our pick of girls back then. There were clearly more popular and social guys. There were the strong guys who were jock like, or just bigger than everyone. There was one really tall dude who was really cool and everyone liked him. Don't see him these days, but he was cool. Some of them were overly confident and boastful, sure. And they did tend to get noticed. But as I was getting older, I saw other things going on too. Misfit guys had girlfriends . The geekiest guys in school! I had a good friend called Ryan, whom is still an extremely dear friend to me now. Back then, he was a skinny dude with an insanely high level of confidence, bravery and just straight up bollocks. He was also extremely loyal. He wasn't the most popular dude in school (he never came in ), but he was a trailblazer because he didn't follow anyone but himself and his own views. I learned a lot from him because he didn't have to be a social engineer to get laid, and after that I started noticing everyone around me getting laid and having girlfriends. None of them were the most arrogant or boastful guys. They were just normal. Some were short and all sorts. So of course, this made me feel even more like sh*t and even more invisible. What did all these other guys have that I didn't? Was I ugly? I thought it was that, but whatever it was at the time, I believed myself to be invisible, especially to women. I didn't know anything! I identified with it, and even began to style myself as an invisible man - a mythical figure even. It became part of who I was then - just some guy. There was perhaps one thing that got me noticed, and perhaps the only time I perceived that anyone even clocked I was around - being a musician. I went through a small stage then where I hated making music, until one day I served to use it as my escape. I had creativity on my side, so all my energy was channeled there. Playing piano all night, making beats on my computer all throughout my adolescents, playing with sound. It became my entire secret existence, my own world away from school, friends, girls. I loved girls even before then - I just sucked at talking to them. I digress..... People noticed me when I made music. It was like all of a sudden the cloak was lifted and there I was sitting there all shiny with a keyboard in front of me. So I used music. I made friends, I spoke to people, I got bolder, braver, more confident, ever so slowly. I was a weird kid, so I was always awkward, but people responded, not always nicely, but I rode it out in the end. It wasn't till I left school that things got better. I failed academically but still managed to claw my way into college off the back of an A* in Music - so music saved me again. In College I really started to come into my own - I got better musically, and the better I got, the more confident I became. I started actually talking to girls for once. It was awkward, but it got easier and more fun. They still didn't date me, but I felt I was making progress, even though I was still invisible romantically. Uni was the same, except that I was at my peak socially. I had more friends than ever, I was acclaimed by peers musically, my social circle expanded, and I was more confident than I ever was. Then it all came crashing down. I had a meltdown and left University with an injury and never returned. I got diagnosed with Autism, and with that, I was invisible again. Sure, my friends never forgot me, but I had regressed. I believed myself to be invisible all over again and settled back into the same routine. Mythical figure. My music even descended into the very same chaos - simultaneously glorifying and lamenting my perceived invisibility to women. I was in the shadow of my friends when it came to them. My friends all had something that made them standout. They were funny, or they were charming, or they were insanely good looking, or incredibly smart (which I allegedly was, but didn't know how to use it), or had a passion. Something was going on with them, and nothing with me. All I had was music and it wasn't enough. So even my music took a hit when I did, and I sunk. It wasn't until a short while after my diagnosis when I joined my band, and a good friend told me that I needed to sack up. So I did. And change didn't come overnight..... I worked hard on myself. I lost weight, I dressed better, I learned how to get better with words and how to use them. I learned how to better read people and body language, how to read their words. I learned how to be relaxed around people and not take life too seriously. I worked with my autistic traits - the ones I couldn't mask anyway. I started smiling more, being braver and doing things I would never have done. Eventually, last year was a turning point. I had almost completely transformed. Sure, I still thought I was invisible seeing as my social circle had mostly been neglected while I worked on me but I didn't care. I needed that time on my own, I embraced my "invisibility" completely, while popping up occasionally to let people know I was alive. So with that, I talked to more women. I wasn't athletic, especially popular, nor did I believe myself to be all that smart or talented, but I was happier. I got slightly better responses each time. I was slowly coming back out of my shell again. Still kept slipping back in, but the more I did, the more I tried to jump out of my shell. Until last year, when opportunities started to pop up. At 23, girls were starting to like me, I thought "Yes, all that positivity and optimism was paying off!". And it did - I lost the V. But then something strange happened. After that, I got interest from EVERYWHERE. My social life had tailed off for a while, so that couldn't be it. I wasn't making music for now as I was working on business stuff, so it wasn't that. Was it the sex? I thought so. I thought they could smell the confidence coming off me. It was then that I had a good little think over my life, and spoke with my brother. I told him the same "invisible" story too. To which he replied "No, you were never invisible, you just acted like that because you're a weirdo and you hated yourself for it". He was right. I thought about it, and all that happened was based on a fallacy that I created. I was never invisible at all. I wasn't the most popular or social, but people talked to me and looked out for me. But most of all - girls already liked me. All the time I spent getting better at reading people and social nuances enabled me to go back and see all the signs of interest that I was getting all over the shop. So in actuality, it wasn't my "invisibility" that wasn't getting me laid. It was me. I was the problem, because I believed in being invisible and being the nice, quiet guy who couldn't strike it with women. I identified with it so much at that age that I almost became that person. But it wasn't who I really was. And I suspect its the same for all the nice guys on here. The nice, beta male is a rigid construct. It's so narrow that there are probably very few that would naturally fall into it. But somehow, people manage to squeeze themselves into that suit subconsciously and wear it like a badge of failure. Just like I did in my teens and at 20. But the suit isn't you. Nobody is that nice, nobody is that passive, nobody is that much of a pussy - not really. (well, some are, but you get my point ). There are inherent traits in all of us that we can call upon to balance ourselves out into the person that we can be. Whether that's narcissistic Machiavellian-type jerks, or Rich, charismatic socialites, or just an amalgamation of traits from all over the shot - you can find some of them in you and see how you can use that to your advantage. Like - I am a nice guy. But it's not the only thing I am. I'm nice. But I'm also intelligent, direct, impulsive, talented, compassionate, and helpful. There are more, but you get the point. Everyone has different traits, that fall outside of the realm of nice and beta. Step outside of the reality that tells you that this is what you are, forget the facebook comments and clinging onto everything that seems easier for women and "top tier men". Start looking within and finding out what your special things are, and how hard you have to work to get them and be that. Then you won't be invisible. In fact, you might even find out that you never were invisible in the first place.
JuneJulySeptember Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 It's like when you start talking to a guy and all his questions are boring and lame. Like "so do you have any brothers or sisters?" yawn. It's much better for a guy to tell amusing stories...which he can't tell if he has no life. It's a struggle to be sure. Going to school, on top of work to better your career. Then, on top of that trying to travel to places and upkeep your social network so that you can impress a woman with interesting stories? Maybe try and learn the guitar and play in a band too? Phew. Now maybe you understand why guys are angry. Forget that. I'd rather take a lesser looking woman who has all of the same (or better) qualities as the princess who rates a 6 out of 10.
Lonely Ronin Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 So I should go around calling all women cunt? He said, women either go eww, or yum. that's a lot different than walking into a bar and having every woman in the place, thinking that guy is a dick. I'm a lot like castle, in that I invoke a strong response in woman. I don't invoke hate, I invoke a I'm not interested, or I don't like him style negative response. Calling women cun** is going to make them hate you, and that's 10 times worse than being invisible. If a woman hates you, all her friends are going to know who you are, and avoid you as well. My local bar has a guy like this, women don't dislike him, they hate him. he is an obnoxious ass. The last time I had to play pull at the table next to him I wanted to break my cue across his face after like 30 mins. all he did was complain about all women are this, and that, and that he gets used. I had to bite my tong damn hard that night.
carhill Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 - beautiful, poignant, and so true for some men. Heartfelt thanks to John Kander and Fred Ebb... two great men. The storyline fits too.
ThaWholigan Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 He said, women either go eww, or yum. that's a lot different than walking into a bar and having every woman in the place, thinking that guy is a dick. I'm a lot like castle, in that I invoke a strong response in woman. I don't invoke hate, I invoke a I'm not interested, or I don't like him style negative response. Calling women cun** is going to make them hate you, and that's 10 times worse than being invisible. If a woman hates you, all her friends are going to know who you are, and avoid you as well. My local bar has a guy like this, women don't dislike him, they hate him. he is an obnoxious ass. The last time I had to play pull at the table next to him I wanted to break my cue across his face after like 30 mins. all he did was complain about all women are this, and that, and that he gets used. I had to bite my tong damn hard that night. Invoking an aura is typically thought of in a Plutonic fashion of course, so I can understand that you get strong reactions. The reactions I illicit are typically slow but increasingly intriguing.
TheZebra Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 It's a struggle to be sure. Going to school, on top of work to better your career. Then, on top of that trying to travel to places and upkeep your social network so that you can impress a woman with interesting stories? Maybe try and learn the guitar and play in a band too? Phew. Now maybe you understand why guys are angry. I don't really see how that's so difficult TBH. I've done all of what you said and I'm a girl. That's why I look for a guy who does the same things. Perhaps you may have an argument if a girl who sits at home all day is requesting a guy that does all those things. Then again, if you go through all that trouble you're not going to settle for just any girl, are you?
JuneJulySeptember Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 I don't really see how that's so difficult TBH. I've done all of what you said and I'm a girl. That's why I look for a guy who does the same things. Perhaps you may have an argument if a girl who sits at home all day is requesting a guy that does all those things. Then again, if you go through all that trouble you're not going to settle for just any girl, are you? I do have all of that. But this isn't about me. Women will expect more than they have. Most of the time. Not all women play the game of 'get the best they can get'. Just like not all men play it. Yes, absolutely. I have a masters and I would date a hairdresser. Thought of hitting on one just the other day. Quality of character is more important to me than a person's 'wares'.
ThaWholigan Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 It's a struggle to be sure. Going to school, on top of work to better your career. Then, on top of that trying to travel to places and upkeep your social network so that you can impress a woman with interesting stories? Maybe try and learn the guitar and play in a band too? Phew. Now maybe you understand why guys are angry. Forget that. I'd rather take a lesser looking woman who has all of the same (or better) qualities as the princess who rates a 6 out of 10. Meh, none of those things are that hard. Sh*t, I might even go back to school . The problem is guys don't know what their passions are, or what they even want out of life - all they know is they want the intimacy of a GF. Nothing else. Ask yourself, what else is there in your life? I know, I had a foundation. I had music, I had my love for information and knowledge and the wish to spread that to people, science, computers, you name it. I have interests all over the shot. I want to go on a worldwide tour and sell out a stadium one day, or I want to teach some other guy to be great enough to go and do it! I have goals. All those guys need goals. The other important thing is (and I know some guys will disagree but), a lot of women I meet have similar goals too. They want lots out of life aswell as a man in it. Not just a man and that's it.
Lonely Ronin Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 The other important thing is (and I know some guys will disagree but), a lot of women I meet have similar goals too. They want lots out of life aswell as a man in it. Not just a man and that's it. This ^^ Most of the women I have dated are this way, they enjoy the fact that I do as well.
JuneJulySeptember Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Meh, none of those things are that hard. Sh*t, I might even go back to school . The problem is guys don't know what their passions are, or what they even want out of life - all they know is they want the intimacy of a GF. Nothing else. Ask yourself, what else is there in your life? I know, I had a foundation. I had music, I had my love for information and knowledge and the wish to spread that to people, science, computers, you name it. I have interests all over the shot. I want to go on a worldwide tour and sell out a stadium one day, or I want to teach some other guy to be great enough to go and do it! I have goals. All those guys need goals. The other important thing is (and I know some guys will disagree but), a lot of women I meet have similar goals too. They want lots out of life aswell as a man in it. Not just a man and that's it. Really? I've been to Europe, Asia, Central and South America, and just about every major city in the US. One of the last women who rejected me didn't even have a passport. Maybe if I had been to Australia, she would have said yes? I hate the increase your points total so you can get with another person with a higher point total philosophy. Forget that. Give me a nice shmuck who is out of the competition.
ThaWholigan Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Really? I've been to Europe, Asia, Central and South America, and just about every major city in the US. One of the last women who rejected me didn't even have a passport. Maybe if I had been to Australia, she would have said yes? I hate the increase your points total so you can get with another person with a higher point total philosophy. Forget that. Give me a nice shmuck who is out of the competition. That's only part of the puzzle though. I don't do those things to get women, or to score points on which higher one I can get. That's not really what I'm saying. I do those things because I want to. And what I've realized is because I have a passion for those things, that's one way I can come across attractive - or for the purpose of this thread, "visible". Travelling is just one facet. I mean like what are you passionate about. Passion can be attractive. Also, it's how you bring yourself across. There are many variables to discover. There's no shame or particularly gruelling, hoop-jumping, work when it comes to understanding social dynamics. You don't have to completely change yourself or anything stupid. It's just understanding what works, immersing yourself in it, and being brave enough to adapt and apply it to how you want live your life. I always liken it to Jeet Kune Do.
Necris Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 It's like when you start talking to a guy and all his questions are boring and lame. Like "so do you have any brothers or sisters?" yawn. It's much better for a guy to tell amusing stories...which he can't tell if he has no life. Now that's something I'm good at, it doesn't make women attracted to me, but conversations with me often aren't boring. But sparking a conversation can be difficult as women often don't want to be bothered if you are approaching a random girl in public. Though sometimes my definition of exciting and her definition exciting don't match, like this one time I'm at a restaurant with this girl, and we were talking about interests and I told her I have an interest in computer programming so I'm learning C++ and I give her some information on software development, and she proceeds to roll her eyes.
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