Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)

[Mme. Chaucer]

I find the amount of blaming going on in this thread to be disheartening.

 

I have a LOT of experience with BPD. Actual, diagnosed. Having people with the disorder in your life can be terribly toxic and destructive, no doubt. These people can ruin other lives. But they ARE terribly unhappy, and the suicide rate is high. Living with the disorder is torturous. So is living with drug addiction or alcoholism - but that is not a reason to choose to throw in your lot in life with somebody who is very sick and destructive.

 

There is NO point in blaming. The point is to not put YOURSELF in situations that are emotionally unhealthy for YOU. This is all on YOU.

 

I understand very well how a person with BPD can be almost irresistible, and that it's way easier said than done to extricate yourself once you've become deeply enmeshed with one. Especially if they tell you that they'll kill themselves if you leave, and often even make an attempt - which is pretty common, sadly.

 

And dealing with all of this with someone you love is literally traumatic.

 

Yes, they are manipulating you. They CANNOT STAND rejection or abandonment. They feel like a caged animal that will rip you to shreds when they get into such a position. At that point, they are operating on a "fight or flight" kind of instinct and not functioning with any objective reason at all - incapable of it.

 

Also, any feeling at all that they have is the absolute reality of the world, whether it is anger, love, joy, hatred, jealousy.

 

They ARE dangerous and destructive in these states and they are NOT people with whom you are going to have a healthy relationship. This is not to say they don't "deserve" love. Anybody does. But why not CHOOSE to love someone who will enhance your life rather than trash it? That's on YOU.

 

People with BPD are NOT to be excused for the damage they do because they have a personality disorder. They CAN seek self awareness and develop different ways to behave, but if they don't, it's on them. They can make a choice. But it is not their fault that they have a personality disorder, either. So rather than blame them for all the misery you endured when involved with them, look into why you stayed involved with them. They are very seductive, but then there are many negative signs that most people see clearly - yet they stay.

 

If the person with BPD is your parent, it's not on you for being involved - but blaming is still, ultimately, hurting you only, and hindering you.

 

There is a HUGE tendency here for people to be diagnosing. I dislike it. Some of the stories I have followed from the beginning are clearly NOT the story of a person getting screwed over by another who has a toxic personality disorder. They are the stories of people who, for their own reasons, actually SEEK and CULTIVATE a dead end relationship with another who has showed them without any question that they have NOTHING to give in that department. At least not to the poster. Yet the poster hangs in there, sometimes desperately - and then blames the messed up person for behaving exactly as the person they are and that they've shown themselves to be from early on.

 

And diagnoses a personality disorder.

[NoMoreJerks]

In fact, I have read extensively about BPD and NPD, and know for a fact that the scientific community does not view BPD as curable. Sure, they prescribe treatments (CBT, sometimes even meds), but they do not say annything about effectiveness nor do they believe any of this will be effective -- except maybe in 0.01% of cases where the person is probably not even BPD, though he/she demonstrates the classic symptoms thereof.

 

I don't need to go to wikipedia. Here, read what the NIMH has to say about this, based on a review of the scientific literature/consensus on the subject:

 

NIMH · How is borderline personality disorder treated?

 

"More studies are needed to determine the effectiveness of these treatments, who may benefit the most, and how best to deliver treatments."

 

"The effectiveness of this type of therapy [a type of group therapy, Systems Training for Emotional Predictability and Problem Solving (STEPPS)] has not been extensively studied."

 

Symptoms may be "reduced" (reduced by how much? certainly not enough for them to stop being qualified as BPDers at any rate), but the underlying problem will persist and will never be cured. Nope. Never. Sure, a BPDer may act "normal" for a few weeks, or a month -- heck, my ex did so even without treatment -- but they will always cycle through that and back to their old self. Always. Even if it takes them a year to get back to their old self, they always will. Once a BPDer, always a BPDer.

 

Studies about this subject -- the effectiveness of treatments of BPD -- are so rare. Why? Because most scientists have just thrown in the towel on those people. In fact, they were even considering removing this as a disorder from the DMS-V, most likely because it just boggles the mind how much these people are resistant to therapy/treatment, which makes one wonder if they are just assh*les or simply manipulative people (see my first post in this thread).

[KathyM]

I just wanted to throw a few facts about BPD out there. It's not a demonic possession. It is caused by a genetic predisposition combined with a stress factor, such as an abusive childhood. That is not to say that everyone who has this genetic weakness or that is abused will develop the disorder, but it is thought that the combination of the genetic weakness/predisposition, when accompanied by extreme stress during childhood, such as if the child is physically or sexually abused or neglected, those people are likely to develop the illness. Abuse/neglect alone is not likely to result in development of the disorder. It is the combined abuse and genetic predisposition that causes the disorder. It is also not something that develops later in adulthood. The symptoms start in late adolesence or early 20s, but often go undiagnosed. It is very difficult to treat, but some success has been found from a combination of medication to control certain symptoms, such as anxiety and impulse control, combined with DBT (Dialectic Behavioral Therapy). Some people may have some of the symptoms of BPD, but not enough to be diagnosed with the disorder. It's not likely that BPD and NPD is found in the same person, since the symptoms are generally opposite in those disorders, with BPD showing a lack of identity, feelings of paranoia, feelings of emptiness, and idealizing/devaluing others. NPDs, on the other hand, have a grandiose sense of self and self importance. BPDs have an unstable sense of self and feelings of emptiness.

[dreamingoftigers]

Did you even fully read your own link?

 

In your quote they were specifically targeting STEPPS as the therapy the needed more study to examine effectiveness.

 

Plus you missed this tidbit:

 

Some symptoms of borderline personality disorder may come and go, but the core symptoms of highly changeable moods, intense anger, and impulsiveness tend to be more persistent.34 People whose symptoms improve may continue to face issues related to co-occurring disorders, such as depression or post-traumatic stress disorder.4 However, encouraging research suggests that relapse, or the recurrence of full-blown symptoms after remission, is rare. In one study, 6 percent of people with borderline personality disorder had a relapse after remission.4

 

SIX PERCENT! That means 94% of BPDs after remission do not relapse into full-blown BPD.

 

Plus you were talking about your ex and his NPD until in this thread you decided "with some BPD."

 

You aren't a psychiatrist and honestly I doubt you've "read extensively" since you didn't even "read extensively" your own link!

 

I think you are in general a great poster. But this is doing no service to anyone seeking help for BPD or in a relationship with one. There were three other treatments listed on that very link alone and what they were effective in treating. They even suggested getting family involved might help!

 

In my own personal life the traits the most noticeably disappeared were impulsive suicide, any form of rampant up and down depression, ideating and then casting aside people, blaming others for my actions, completely avoided alcohol, having my perception of criticism make me feel like I was being stabbed. Criticism is like vicious, vicious pain to BPD people.

 

In fact, I have read extensively about BPD and NPD, and know for a fact that the scientific community does not view BPD as curable. Sure, they prescribe treatments (CBT, sometimes even meds), but they do not say annything about effectiveness nor do they believe any of this will be effective -- except maybe in 0.01% of cases where the person is probably not even BPD, though he/she demonstrates the classic symptoms thereof.

 

I don't need to go to wikipedia. Here, read what the NIMH has to say about this, based on a review of the scientific literature/consensus on the subject:

 

NIMH · How is borderline personality disorder treated?

 

"More studies are needed to determine the effectiveness of these treatments, who may benefit the most, and how best to deliver treatments."

 

"The effectiveness of this type of therapy [a type of group therapy, Systems Training for Emotional Predictability and Problem Solving (STEPPS)] has not been extensively studied."

 

Symptoms may be "reduced" (reduced by how much? certainly not enough for them to stop being qualified as BPDers at any rate), but the underlying problem will persist and will never be cured. Nope. Never. Sure, a BPDer may act "normal" for a few weeks, or a month -- heck, my ex did so even without treatment -- but they will always cycle through that and back to their old self. Always. Even if it takes them a year to get back to their old self, they always will. Once a BPDer, always a BPDer.

 

Studies about this subject -- the effectiveness of treatments of BPD -- are so rare. Why? Because most scientists have just thrown in the towel on those people. In fact, they were even considering removing this as a disorder from the DMS-V, most likely because it just boggles the mind how much these people are resistant to therapy/treatment, which makes one wonder if they are just assh*les or simply manipulative people (see my first post in this thread).

[dreamingoftigers]

Bingo!

 

And you are a mental health professional, are you not?

 

I just wanted to throw a few facts about BPD out there. It's not a demonic possession. It is caused by a genetic predisposition combined with a stress factor, such as an abusive childhood. That is not to say that everyone who has this genetic weakness or that is abused will develop the disorder, but it is thought that the combination of the genetic weakness/predisposition, when accompanied by extreme stress during childhood, such as if the child is physically or sexually abused or neglected, those people are likely to develop the illness. Abuse/neglect alone is not likely to result in development of the disorder. It is the combined abuse and genetic predisposition that causes the disorder. It is also not something that develops later in adulthood. The symptoms start in late adolesence or early 20s, but often go undiagnosed. It is very difficult to treat, but some success has been found from a combination of medication to control certain symptoms, such as anxiety and impulse control, combined with DBT (Dialectic Behavioral Therapy). Some people may have some of the symptoms of BPD, but not enough to be diagnosed with the disorder. It's not likely that BPD and NPD is found in the same person, since the symptoms are generally opposite in those disorders, with BPD showing a lack of identity, feelings of paranoia, feelings of emptiness, and idealizing/devaluing others. NPDs, on the other hand, have a grandiose sense of self and self importance. BPDs have an unstable sense of self and feelings of emptiness.

[NoMoreJerks]

There is a HUGE tendency here for people to be diagnosing. I dislike it. Some of the stories I have followed from the beginning are clearly NOT the story of a person getting screwed over by another who has a toxic personality disorder. They are the stories of people who, for their own reasons, actually SEEK and CULTIVATE a dead end relationship with another who has showed them without any question that they have NOTHING to give in that department. At least not to the poster. Yet the poster hangs in there, sometimes desperately - and then blames the messed up person for behaving exactly as the person they are and that they've shown themselves to be from early on.

 

And diagnoses a personality disorder.

I think you are sort of referring to me (among others). If so, please read my posts in this thread, and you will see that my ex demonstrated typical symptoms of BPD and NPD (yes, the two can co-occur). My ex demonstrated ALL the typical signs of NPD, and many of the symptoms of BPD. I am not blaming the fact that I stayed on him -- I loved him and stayed, but I should not have. I didn't see how toxic my situation was, and how similar it was to the situation of others dealing with NPD and BPD partners, until I read about NPD and BPD. In fact, I was not the one who came up with the idea that he might be NPD-BPD. My sister told me that he is, and she has dealt with a NPDer at her workplace. I read as much as I could about the two disorders, and my jaw literally dropped. I kept thinking of the behaviours he had demonstrated that I had brushed off and attributed to stress, his previous experience with his ex, etc. But you know what? No, it was pathological. Those behaviours were attributable to his NPD and BPD. Read what I wrote about him seeking control / making me suggest stuff, so that he'd shoot them down. Typical BPD. Read how others whose partners were BPDers, have experienced the SAME STUFF. No, not everything is attributable to incompatiblity of the two partners in the relationship, as much as you would like to attribute my experiences to that. It was much more than that -- much more. It's easy to dismiss the disorder as mere incompatibility between two partners and their needs / priorities, but in my case, there is no way in hell he is not NPD and BPD. No way in hell. Nope. Sure, I am not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but I am not stupid either. Let's call a spade a spade. For the longest time, I attributed the problems and the abuse to us being incompatible, having different priorities/needs, etc. But nope, I now realize there is MUCH MUCH MORE to it than that. Nope, this certainly was not an incompatibility issue. I know incompatibility when I see one. That guy I met , who cancelled a date on me? Maybe WE were incompatible, yes. He had different priorities, or wanted something else (not a relationship). One of my guy friends who was interested in me? Yes, we were incompatible, because we had different priorities in life. He said he did not want to ever have children. I did not accept his invitation to a date, because I knew there was no point to it, because I want to have children, and I did not want to waste my time with him. THAT's incompatibility. ANd I know how to let go of someone who is incompatible, even if I might like them a lot. But this, this was something else. And no, the signs were not there from the very start, and as I said, by the time they show themselves in their true colours, you would already have fallen in love with them. And yes, they gaslight you so much, that you start questioning yourself: whether YOU are to blame for the entire situation. Yes, my ex gaslighted me. While I was still with my ex, I kept asking my friends what they would've done in a hypothetical situation (which was similar to the situations I found myself in). And they kept telling me things that *I* myself had thought of doing, and they told me that in those scenarios, HE was to blame for the situation. I did as my friends recommended I do -- stood up for myself; and you know what? Standing up to yourself NEVER works with a NPDer and/or BPDer. Establishing boundaries NEVER works with them. NOPE. NEVER. It drives them insane and they will repeatedly try to ELIMINATE ALL your boundaries and go even a step further than before, as punishment for your attempt to establish boundaries. He had a great way of spinning things and turning it all against me -- he made me question reality, made me question what I had heard him tell me in the first place, made me question whether or not I had described the situation accurately to my friends, and I even questioned my friends' judgment. He even denied we had been broken up, when he called me a week after his break-up mssg... He claimed we had only gone on a "break." Meanwhile, I had been crying my head off for a week, thinking it was over. Only for him to waltz back into my life as if nothing had happened. No, that is not normal behaviour.

[dreamingoftigers]

MC, you are beautiful!

 

I'm glad you wrote this

 

I find the amount of blaming going on in this thread to be disheartening.

 

I have a LOT of experience with BPD. Actual, diagnosed. Having people with the disorder in your life can be terribly toxic and destructive, no doubt. These people can ruin other lives. But they ARE terribly unhappy, and the suicide rate is high. Living with the disorder is torturous. So is living with drug addiction or alcoholism - but that is not a reason to choose to throw in your lot in life with somebody who is very sick and destructive.

 

There is NO point in blaming. The point is to not put YOURSELF in situations that are emotionally unhealthy for YOU. This is all on YOU.

 

I understand very well how a person with BPD can be almost irresistible, and that it's way easier said than done to extricate yourself once you've become deeply enmeshed with one. Especially if they tell you that they'll kill themselves if you leave, and often even make an attempt - which is pretty common, sadly.

 

And dealing with all of this with someone you love is literally traumatic.

 

Yes, they are manipulating you. They CANNOT STAND rejection or abandonment. They feel like a caged animal that will rip you to shreds when they get into such a position. At that point, they are operating on a "fight or flight" kind of instinct and not functioning with any objective reason at all - incapable of it.

 

Also, any feeling at all that they have is the absolute reality of the world, whether it is anger, love, joy, hatred, jealousy.

 

They ARE dangerous and destructive in these states and they are NOT people with whom you are going to have a healthy relationship. This is not to say they don't "deserve" love. Anybody does. But why not CHOOSE to love someone who will enhance your life rather than trash it? That's on YOU.

 

People with BPD are NOT to be excused for the damage they do because they have a personality disorder. They CAN seek self awareness and develop different ways to behave, but if they don't, it's on them. They can make a choice. But it is not their fault that they have a personality disorder, either. So rather than blame them for all the misery you endured when involved with them, look into why you stayed involved with them. They are very seductive, but then there are many negative signs that most people see clearly - yet they stay.

 

If the person with BPD is your parent, it's not on you for being involved - but blaming is still, ultimately, hurting you only, and hindering you.

 

There is a HUGE tendency here for people to be diagnosing. I dislike it. Some of the stories I have followed from the beginning are clearly NOT the story of a person getting screwed over by another who has a toxic personality disorder. They are the stories of people who, for their own reasons, actually SEEK and CULTIVATE a dead end relationship with another who has showed them without any question that they have NOTHING to give in that department. At least not to the poster. Yet the poster hangs in there, sometimes desperately - and then blames the messed up person for behaving exactly as the person they are and that they've shown themselves to be from early on.

 

And diagnoses a personality disorder.

[NoMoreJerks]

Yes, I read the link, including the tidbits you quoted.

 

The quoted bits mean nothing.

 

SIX PERCENT! That means 94% of BPDs after remission do not relapse into full-blown BPD.

 

94% of BDPers who went into remission did not have a relapse: that does not tell us how many % of BPDers actually went into remission. Could be 2, out of tens of thousands of BPDers around the world. I did not find it in any way compelling, which is why I completely ignored it: which is what you also should do, unless you are desperately looking for ways to prove that 1 BPD out of tens of thousands, can have "remission." Also, how many months after their remission was their relapse or no-relapse assessed?

 

Plus you were talking about your ex and his NPD until in this thread you decided "with some BPD."

My ex has both -- very strong traits of BPD, indeed. Look at my posts earlier in this thread. Everything that people have shared about their own experiences with their partners, applies to my situation with my ex. I don't know what percentage he was NPD and what percentage he was BPD, or if even psychiatrists/psychologists would be able to say that, but he definitely was NPD and BPD. And the two are often very much overlapping and can co-occur.

[Mme. Chaucer]

In fact, I have read extensively about BPD and NPD, and know for a fact that the scientific community does not view BPD as curable. Sure, they prescribe treatments (CBT, sometimes even meds), but they do not say annything about effectiveness nor do they believe any of this will be effective -- except maybe in 0.01% of cases where the person is probably not even BPD, though he/she demonstrates the classic symptoms thereof.

 

It's a personality disorder. It's part of the PERSON, not a disease or a chemical imbalance (though these might be concurrent). Approaching it as "curable" with "treatment" is not correct. The person with it has to reach a point of self-awareness where she or he realizes that they are trapped within their OWN self destructive patterns and makes a conscious decision to recognize and abandon those patterns and develop new ones. It takes a great deal of revelation, will and even faith to undertake that, but it CAN and DOES work.

 

I don't need to go to wikipedia.

 

I don't, either.

 

it just boggles the mind how much these people are resistant to therapy/treatment, which makes one wonder if they are just assh*les or simply manipulative people (see my first post in this thread).

 

Are YOU resistant to therapy / treatment that would change your core being and all you know yourself to be? Even if all the people you knew told you you should do it? Even if you don't have to think too much about it to know your life is not working as you're living it? I think that most of us are. Changing ourselves at a deep level is VERY threatening and difficult; not many go there.

 

It MUST come from an intense desire to change on the part of the person who has the disorder. Not because others deem them to be a manipulative a**hole or whatever. One needs to be willing to rebuild themselves, basically.

 

Fact: The reason that therapists often will not work with BPD people, and why therapy is often an epic fail, is that the "therapeutic relationship" is pretty much custom made to play into all the typical traits and behaviors of the BPD person - transference is completely unmanageable for them, they develop either a passion for or against the therapist which renders the situation unworkable, they are inherently manipulative so even without intending to, they are always "angling" in therapy to present themselves as they wish to be perceived, and to garner the reactions and relationship they feel that they need. Not a good situation for good results.

[NoMoreJerks]

dreamingoftigers, please read the following, if you feel like it:

 

Having read all the posts on this thread, I am beginning to wonder whether my ex also had BPD (along with NPD).... While I have read that BPD is more common in women, men can also be diagnosed with this disorder. It shocks me to read the posts on this thread, because 99% of the stuff that you guys mentioned reminds me of my ex. And yeah, the whole relationship (which lasted 6 months and had 2 break-ups) was very traumatic. I kept walking on eggshells, constantly being accused of being selfish, never knew when he would have an outburst out of the blue, give me the silent treatment, or just yell at me, for something that just happened only in his imagination... He would also constantly project, blame me, accuse me of being needy, threaten to break up with me (and did so twice -- the last time 3 weeks ago, seems to be final, as he seems to have completely devalued me). He seemed to lack empathy, but I kept ignoring it.. He even told me that he used me -- he was calling me every day because he "usually feels worse when he's away from home, and was feeling lonely." But he said that not apologetically at all. He never apologized... NEVER. Not once. Always made me beg , always wanted control. There just was no winning with him. He'd complain that I never gave him input as to where I wanted to go for dinner. But any time I did, he would tell me he didn't feel like going there. Not once did I say that I wanted to go to this or that place, and he accepted it. So I just stopped making suggestions... It seems to me that he just wanted me to make suggestions, so that he would feel good about shooting them down and having his way... If I just acted like I was "flexible", he couldn't feel like he was in control, because I already didn't mind going to the places that he picked.. He wanted the control... I am realizing this only now -- that this was a form of control. I was so confused all the time, because I felt like I was doing the things he asked me to do , behaving the way he wanted me to behave (suggesting going places), but he was shooting down my suggestions ANYWAY -- ALL the time.... It was jawdroppingly confusing... My head was constantly spinning all the time I was with him. If I didn't respond to one of his texts promptly enough, he'd get mad and give me the silent treatment for days. If I texted too much or too little, he'd get upset. And the "too much" or "too little" varied, based on his daily (or hourly) mood... which I was supposed to guess.... It's been 3 weeks since our break-up and I still have nightmares about some of this stuff, still keep analyzing and processing the stuff he told me and did to me... He was also sexually promiscuous, and wanted to force me into doing a threesome with another woman (any woman). He even ordered me to go find a lesbian woman from a lesbian bar.... I was too scared of losing him, so I did as he told me to, except that I couldn't find anyone (thank god). He got mad at me for not finding someone. I once had back pain so I couldn't go out to find someone (while he stayed in and watched TV, and waited for me to bring home another woman so he could have sex with both of us, or watch us have sex), and he told me that I should go out anyway, that I was just coming up with excuses, that if he had back pain, he would still have gone out to get something that he wanted..... Meanwhile, he had told me that he used to suffer from back pain, and it drove him to alcoholism and he used to fall asleep on the floor of his apartment , after drinking so much due to his back pain. Double standards much? OMG, the things he did to me.... I can't believe I lasted for 6 months... I would've lost my mind if this had lasted longer... The trouble was that I didn't know what normal relationships are supposed to be like, since this was my very first relationship EVER (I'm 29). And I had self-esteem issues and fear of loneliness, that made me stick around longer than anyone would ever have stuck around this guy... He claimed thata he had had 4 LTR, each lasting 4-5 years (he was 40), but I do not buy that, to be honest. If he was the same back then as he was when I met him, I cannot, just cannot, imagine how anyone could've remained sane if she stayed in a relationship with him for 4-5 years... especially that he claimed they lived together... I really think it was all bull****, and he had never had a proper, long-term relationship. I think he was telling me bull**** stories about how he was not over his ex, how he had been treated badly by ALL his exes (and somehow the common denominator was his exes,not him!), how they had all dumped him after he was SO NICE to them, etc.... Everything was about how others had wronged him... he never took blame/responsibility for ANYTHING, not even the tiniest thing/problem... I feel sick just writing this post..

[Mme. Chaucer]

I think you are sort of referring to me (among others). If so, please read my posts in this thread, and you will see that my ex demonstrated typical symptoms of BPD and NPD (yes, the two can co-occur). My ex demonstrated ALL the typical signs of NPD, and many of the symptoms of BPD.

 

I am not saying he does or does not have these disorders. I have read all your posts about him and your relationship, and respectfully, I have to tell you that I don't think you spent enough time with this person to even know him, much less to be in a position to diagnose him. It sounds like you are very angry that you loved a person who was not interested in the same things that you were in any way out of your time together, and who was not at all the person you wanted him to be, and very hurt by that. Understandably.

 

Honestly, NMJ, I don't know. I got my impressions strictly from reading what you put out here. But I am really responding to the tendency of diagnosing a person with a terrible disorder because they fail to give us what we want, which is rampant here.

[dreamingoftigers]

:laugh:My sister told me that he is, and she has dealt with a NPDer at her workplace. I read as much as I could about the two disorders, and my jaw literally dropped. It's easy to dismiss the disorder as mere incompatibility between two partners and their needs / priorities, but in my case, there is no way in hell he is not NPD and BPD. No way in hell. Nope. Sure, I am not a psychiatrist or a psychologist, but I am not stupid either. Let's call a spade a spade. For the longest time, I attributed the problems and the abuse to us being incompatible, having different priorities/needs, etc.

And yes, they gaslight you so much, that you start questioning yourself: whether YOU are to blame for the entire situation. Yes, my ex gaslighted me. Standing up to yourself NEVER works with a NPDer and/or BPDer. Establishing boundaries NEVER works with them. NOPE. NEVER. It drives them insane and they will repeatedly try to ELIMINATE ALL your boundaries and go even a step further than before, as punishment for your attempt to establish boundaries.

No, that is not normal behaviour.

 

IDK what he was/is NMJs but you are describing a series of nasty, cruel behaviours that suck for sure.

 

I just know as a BPD I could let my partners go if there was a thread to hang onto. As soon as there wasn't, they got replaced instantly. I didn't have the confidence to keep going without someone.

 

And sorry, but your sister working with an NPD and you reading about NPD/BPD doesn't mean you can diagnose someone you were IN A 6 month relationship with.

 

My mother had her degree and Psych and another of Applied Child studies and she still couldn't see she was living with an alcoholic. My Dad was actually diagnosed NPD, she thought he was bipolar.

 

He even went for a brain scan at Amen Clinics. How did she get him to go? He had to prove to everyone that he wasn't the crazy one and it was all of us stupid folk. There's a big gap between NPD and BPD. There just is.

 

Nobody is calling you stupid at all. Your experiences with your ex sound very traumatic (have you considered EMDR?)

 

Have you considered he might just be a total as*hole with poor personal boundaries?

[NoMoreJerks]

I hope he will not contact me. I am wondering though if, at some point down the line, once he gets over the "high" of having gained some form of "control", he will start contacting me because he will feel that he has "lost" control because I am not contacting him and begging him to take me back, which is what he would've expected..

Yes, and this is EXACTLY what happened. He's feeling like he has lost control. He texted me, talking as if nothing had happened, asking me how things are.... only someone who has no feelings, no ability to have any empathy, can actually act like nothing had happened.... after having said so many mean things to me, and telling me (in his last mssg to me during the break-up) that he should have spent the $250 to hire a prostitute to have a threesome with us... He is acting like he is still entitled to my attention: he does not realize that he did something wrong, because realizing that means admitting that he could do something wrong, could be mean, etc., rather than always the victim. Now, I bet you, he is thinking I am so mean to him, for not responding... Always the victim card.

[Anela]

 

There are options and solutions. It was widely believed that there simply weren't and for plenty of BPDs they don't respond to treatment largely because the underlying PTSD triggers cannot be treated through talk-therapy. Wrong part of the brain.

 

 

Interesting. Someone told my mother, eight years ago, that my symptoms (leading up to social anxiety and agoraphobia) sounded like PTSD. I had briefly thought about it as what I might be dealing with - the foundation of it all - but I thought it only applied to war veterans. I've felt like I've gone through the wringer over the past few years, and been traumatized all over again in certain instances; I've been trying to hold it together. I ordered more Rhodiola, because it seemed to help me a bit a couple of years ago, and a year ago, I read in a book that it helps with treatment of PTSD.

 

I'm glad that treatment worked for you. I read a few books about BPD last Summer, two written by women who had been succesfully treated, one by a man who was married to a woman with BPD (it didn't end well), and another about several "case studies" - I didn't finish that one before it had to go back to the library. I don't think I have BPD - at least not full-blown, but as I said, there were things I could relate to. I'd wondered if it could take so long to show up in me, because my support system is now wrecked - my main one, anyhow. It's unreal.

[dreamingoftigers]

dreamingoftigers, please read the following, if you feel like it:

 

I'm sorry, but his sexual stuff sounds sickening.

 

He kinda sounds like my H in active addiction.

 

Was he suicidal, at all?

[NoMoreJerks]

Have you considered he might just be a total as*hole with poor personal boundaries?

Yup, and that hardly explains the series of behaviours he demonstrated. See my first post ever in this thread, me wondering whether in a lot of those cases where people think their exes are BPD/NPD, their exes are really just assh*les. But no, that does not explain many of his behaviours which are typically narcissistic. His inability to apologize, his absolute hatred of being criticized in any way whatsoever (even if no one actually criticized him to begin with, but he perceived that he might be criticized). There might be a thin line separating assh*le behaviour from BPD behaviours, but that line is still there, and I know on which side of that line my ex was on. For the longest time I thought my ex was just an assh*le (hence my username, NoMoreJerks), and you know what? I was fine with thinking that he was just an assh*le. It's not like I needed to come up with some diagnosis to feel better. Far from it. It would probably make me feel better to know that I was just the victim of an assh*le, than someone who has a disorder. Easier to blame someone who is an assh*le than it is to blame someone who has a disorder , especially one that is linked to past experiences/upbringing. Sure, I am not a psychiatrist, and sure, even psychiatrists might have trouble diagnosing these disorders, but like others have said here before: if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. All those claims that we are not psychologists, etc., are meaningless. Truth is, if BPDers were even remotely willing to go into therapy or admit something was wrong with them, we would not have had to do the "diagnosis" ourselves in the first place. But like I said, my ex did not even want to PERCEIVE the possibility that he might be criticized, let alone being told that he had BPD and needed to go in to be diagnosed/treated? Yeah right. Sounds like BPDers and NPDers always get away with their sh*tty behaviour thanks to this "loophole", but no, I will not let mine get away with his abusive, sh*tty behaviour, on the grounds that I am not a psychologist.

[Anela]

Yes, and this is EXACTLY what happened. He's feeling like he has lost control. He texted me, talking as if nothing had happened, asking me how things are.... only someone who has no feelings, no ability to have any empathy, can actually act like nothing had happened.... after having said so many mean things to me, and telling me (in his last mssg to me during the break-up) that he should have spent the $250 to hire a prostitute to have a threesome with us... He is acting like he is still entitled to my attention: he does not realize that he did something wrong, because realizing that means admitting that he could do something wrong, could be mean, etc., rather than always the victim. Now, I bet you, he is thinking I am so mean to him, for not responding... Always the victim card.

 

I don't think that at all - I think he's a dick, just like the guy that I mentioned to you. I also recognized that my level of emotional attachment/reaction to him was unhealthy, and I should have gone to see someone when I first thought about it *five years ago*. I could have saved myself a lot of pain.

 

You waited a long time, and thought you'd found love, and he **** all over that. I know how that feels, I really do. More than you know. I haven't been the same since, because he decided to make me out to be crazy, and he had me questioning myself. It's a nightmare. What felt even worse to me, was that he got to fall in love, whereas men my age were suddenly "preferring someone younger" and I also felt too messed up to get involved with anyone.

[dreamingoftigers]

Yes, and this is EXACTLY what happened. He's feeling like he has lost control. He texted me, talking as if nothing had happened, asking me how things are.... only someone who has no feelings, no ability to have any empathy, can actually act like nothing had happened.... after having said so many mean things to me, and telling me (in his last mssg to me during the break-up) that he should have spent the $250 to hire a prostitute to have a threesome with us... He is acting like he is still entitled to my attention: he does not realize that he did something wrong, because realizing that means admitting that he could do something wrong, could be mean, etc., rather than always the victim. Now, I bet you, he is thinking I am so mean to him, for not responding... Always the victim card.

 

Okay NMJ, he's messed right up and you gave every right to feel down and angry about how you were treated. I'd also block every form of contact you could have with this man. But this honest-to-God just doesn't sound like BPD.

 

BPD was a lot more like:

 

"why don't you love me enough to accept the cookies I made for you at three a.m. And dropped by your house and you didn't answer the door? How could you treat me like that? How? I'm supposed to be the mother of your future children? I know we broke up but we can fix this, here have a cookie, everything will be just fine. I'm sorry it was three a.m. But I needed to, I even thought you might be angry if I didn't come out right away. I know you don't like to be kept waiting."

 

Flipped to:

 

"what kind of an engagement ring is this? THIS is the diamond you get me after all I've done for you. After you made me drop off cookies at 3 am in the middle of a blizzard. You must not love me at all! You must be seeing someone else! What's the bitch's name?"

 

(no the cookies at 3 am example didn't happen, it's an example)

 

BPD tends to be rampant, unfillable insecurity.

[dreamingoftigers]

I am not saying he does or does not have these disorders. I have read all your posts about him and your relationship, and respectfully, I have to tell you that I don't think you spent enough time with this person to even know him, much less to be in a position to diagnose him. It sounds like you are very angry that you loved a person who was not interested in the same things that you were in any way out of your time together, and who was not at all the person you wanted him to be, and very hurt by that. Understandably.

 

Honestly, NMJ, I don't know. I got my impressions strictly from reading what you put out here. But I am really responding to the tendency of diagnosing a person with a terrible disorder because they fail to give us what we want, which is rampant here.

 

The percentages of people on LS that claim their ex was BPD or NPD is sky-high. Jeez at one point I thought my husband was NPD, he thought he might be BPD. I figured he wasn't because he isn't suicidal at all.

 

Turns out he was ADD/ADHD with some traits of being a chronic farter on the couch.

[NoMoreJerks]

I'm sorry, but his sexual stuff sounds sickening.

 

He kinda sounds like my H in active addiction.

 

Was he suicidal, at all?

I am not sure if he was suicidal. He was (by his own admission) an alcoholic at some point in his life (as recently as 2 years ago) -- not sure for how long he had been an alcoholic though, but I know that this is why his ex dumped him. When we were together, he used to DRINK A LOT. I am not sure if he was STILL an alcoholic.

 

He never threatened to kill himself in front of me. I know for a fact, though, that his parents are so scared/worried, and almost babysit him now -- I think he may have been on the verge of committing suicide when his ex broke up with him. Now, his parents treat him like a king, for fear that if they do not, he would relapse. They tell him he should be completely selfish, not give a sh*t about anyone, and go have fun. Keep in mind, he is a 40-year-old man.

 

Anyway, he could not let go of me, even when he dumped me. It's like, even when he sent me one of his trademark "looks like we're finished" emails, he wanted me to beg him, and if I didn't, he shortly got back to me, and pretended nothing had happened. He certainly had abandonment issues, that's for sure. For him to have texted me and called me up a week after he dumped me the first time around (and to do so when on holiday in Thailand, when he could have been going out and having fun and not giving a sh*t about me anymore), indicates that he could not let go of me (and no, he was not in love with me -- he never loved me). Even now, with the second break-up, it looks like he expected me to beg him. I didn't, this time around, because I knew that if he didn't love me at this point, he never would, and I could no longer deal with being dumped out of the blue every week or so, and beg my way back into the "relationship". I had lost all self-respect. I told him that I am sorry that I could not make him happy, and just went NC. He thought I'd cave and text/call him in a day or two (which is what I had done in the past, whenever he had sent me those emails), but I broke that pattern, and did not contact him at all. For 3 weeks, he did not contact me, but 5 days ago , he sent me a text, acting like nothing had happened, and telling me about his whereabouts, when in the past he had told me it was none of my business where he was traveling for work because we were no longer together... I ignored it, and so far, he has not sent a second one, or called me up. He might have devalued me for good after this episode, because he typically got mad and accused me of giving him the silent treatment any time that I did not respond to him VERY PROMPTLY (i.e. as soon as getting his text). And if I responded as soon as I got his text, he'd lose respect for me because I allegedly did not have a life and did not know what "real life" is like. This may have been his last attempt at "feeling up" my mood / willingness to go back to him. Oh well.

[dreamingoftigers]

One thing that did make me more "treatable" was the fact that I was hospitalized. On the third round they held me for two weeks in a Form 10 (you can't leave). I was co-operative with them evaluating me because I thought I was "just depressed." I was surprised when they came back with sheets of results saying otherwise.

 

Plus they gave me plenty to look over and "I only did this because...." didn't seem to fly as much when you see it in black and white. One psychiatrist had already diagnosed it, so it seemed kind of "off" to fight it anymore. I went to the U of C library and researched the Hell out of it, journals etc. It looked like a death sentence.

[NoMoreJerks]

Okay NMJ, he's messed right up and you gave every right to feel down and angry about how you were treated. I'd also block every form of contact you could have with this man. But this honest-to-God just doesn't sound like BPD.

 

BPD was a lot more like:

 

"why don't you love me enough to accept the cookies I made for you at three a.m. And dropped by your house and you didn't answer the door? How could you treat me like that? How? I'm supposed to be the mother of your future children? I know we broke up but we can fix this, here have a cookie, everything will be just fine. I'm sorry it was three a.m. But I needed to, I even thought you might be angry if I didn't come out right away. I know you don't like to be kept waiting."

 

Flipped to:

 

"what kind of an engagement ring is this? THIS is the diamond you get me after all I've done for you. After you made me drop off cookies at 3 am in the middle of a blizzard. You must not love me at all! You must be seeing someone else! What's the bitch's name?"

 

(no the cookies at 3 am example didn't happen, it's an example)

 

BPD tends to be rampant, unfillable insecurity.

BPD is not just one characteristic trait. It's a series of traits. Also, my ex accused me of being ungrateful for things that he did for me. He would volunteer to cook for me. Tell me he wanted to treat me like a princess. He'd tell me to go sit down and watch TV. If I insisted on helping him, he'd tell me no, just go sit. He'd go and cook, and then, after about 30 minutes of cooking, he'd get stressed out and start showing signs of impatience/anger, at me. If I came over to offer help, he'd tell me, no, why are you going to help, when I'm almost done with it? So that in the end, *you* would take credit for something that *I* did for you?

[dreamingoftigers]

Yes, I read the link, including the tidbits you quoted.

 

The quoted bits mean nothing.

 

94% of BDPers who went into remission did not have a relapse: that does not tell us how many % of BPDers actually went into remission. Could be 2, out of tens of thousands of BPDers around the world. I did not find it in any way compelling, which is why I completely ignored it: which is what you also should do, unless you are desperately looking for ways to prove that 1 BPD out of tens of thousands, can have "remission." Also, how many months after their remission was their relapse or no-relapse assessed?.

 

The treatment rates are in the wiki link and the relapse rates are in the link you provided. I'm not raping J-STOR to find journal articles for LS.

[NoMoreJerks]

I don't think that at all - I think he's a dick, just like the guy that I mentioned to you. I also recognized that my level of emotional attachment/reaction to him was unhealthy, and I should have gone to see someone when I first thought about it *five years ago*. I could have saved myself a lot of pain.

 

You waited a long time, and thought you'd found love, and he **** all over that. I know how that feels, I really do. More than you know. I haven't been the same since, because he decided to make me out to be crazy, and he had me questioning myself. It's a nightmare. What felt even worse to me, was that he got to fall in love, whereas men my age were suddenly "preferring someone younger" and I also felt too messed up to get involved with anyone.

Sure, he was a d*ck, but I never claimed BPDers and NPDers are not d*cks. They are the epitome of dickishness, sorry to say. Coupled with all his behaviour (not all of which I have shared on here), he definitely had a personality disorder... whether borderline or narcissistic or both. I think it's both, because he definitely did show signs of being BPD.

[dreamingoftigers]

BPD is not just one characteristic trait. It's a series of traits. Also, my ex accused me of being ungrateful for things that he did for me. He would volunteer to cook for me. Tell me he wanted to treat me like a princess. He'd tell me to go sit down and watch TV. If I insisted on helping him, he'd tell me no, just go sit. He'd go and cook, and then, after about 30 minutes of cooking, he'd get stressed out and start showing signs of impatience/anger, at me. If I came over to offer help, he'd tell me, no, why are you going to help, when I'm almost done with it? So that in the end, *you* would take credit for something that *I* did for you?

 

Okay, it should have read "my personal experience with BPD was more like....." and yes, I am aware that it is a set it traits, I believe you need 5 of 8 to (or 5 of 9, it's been so long) get a proper diagnosis.

 

Honestly your ex doesn't sound BPD at all to me. Like AT ALL. but that isn't for us to decide anyway. Honest to God that sounds like my full-blown NPD father, that same paranoia that you might tarnish his "greatness" but a lot of

addicts (you said he was an alcoholic) present that way. Even his parental relations sound off for it.