Do the success stories exist?

[nofool4u]

Hi, after posting a comment on my own thread, i asked a question and now felt the need to share it further for a general opinion! Here goes!

 

On the topic of OW/OM the majority of threads on this seem to be a case of the OW/OM in hand wondering if and how they can make it work with the MW/MM.

 

But has anybody actually seen or heard of the MW/MM actually leaving their spouse for the OW/OM and it actually all worked out pretty well? Without deception of who the OW/OM truly is compared to what they were thought to be, or without the 'love' just being based around the excitement of wanting what you cant have or the excitement of the affair that then disappears when the 'freedom' is present.

 

Just a general question really to see what you all think.

 

Thanks!

 

Yes, you will see many stories on here where the OM/OW triumphed over the BS.

 

Here is one for you. The OM to my now x-wife triumphed over me.

 

Where are they now? He verbally abuses her, and has blackened her eye on one occasion(promising never to do it again I have heard) because, get this, he doesn't trust her:o

[OhDear66]

Well, what is a success story?

 

How is that defined?

 

Is it successful because the AP's marry?

Or stay together for X amount of time?

What is the criteria for success?

 

Without you stating it I have to guess - and I'll guess that you are asking how many A's end in a long term happy M between the AP's.

 

Not many - a rare but possible occurrence.

 

It's a moot point though as you are currently M to your W.

Actually, that's an obstacle you can remedy by filing for D.

 

Wouldn't that be logical first step?

 

So... File for D. This, at least, makes the possibility of M to your AP more likely as YOU would be available for M. As it stands you are not.

 

i guess my definition of 'success' would be, the MW/MM leaves to be with the OW/OM, and they end up happy together, and if they split up at some point but it was down to a reason NOT related to the affair or the situation that once was, then i guess you could still call it some what a success. if they split after say a couple of months then of course not, but say they are with each other for a matter of years or something. i may be wrong but just a general outlook i suppose.

 

Also...you may have misread something, as i am not married nor do i have a partner. However, there is a MW.

[OhDear66]

Yes, you will see many stories on here where the OM/OW triumphed over the BS.

 

Here is one for you. The OM to my now x-wife triumphed over me.

 

Where are they now? He verbally abuses her, and has blackened her eye on one occasion(promising never to do it again I have heard) because, get this, he doesn't trust her:o

 

A good point made my friend however, the real question asked i guess was not so much of the 'triumph' over the BS, as TBH i think this 'triumph' if you will call it that does happen a hell of a lot, but you also hear a hell of a lot of cases where just like your ex-wife's, the person turns out to be someone else to what they appeared, or.....just like this case, the situation they had before causes too many problems for them to move forward. Which is where my question came in...do people kinda get past that bit to then move forward and not let how they got together get in the way of their relationship

[jwi71]

i guess my definition of 'success' would be, the MW/MM leaves to be with the OW/OM, and they end up happy together, and if they split up at some point but it was down to a reason NOT related to the affair or the situation that once was, then i guess you could still call it some what a success. if they split after say a couple of months then of course not, but say they are with each other for a matter of years or something. i may be wrong but just a general outlook i suppose.

 

Also...you may have misread something, as i am not married nor do i have a partner. However, there is a MW.

 

Oh, I clearly got stories confused.

 

Honestly, it sounds like youre definition of success is to get the MW to leave. More succinctly put, you are competing with her H.

 

I say that as most AP's WANT that forever together - hell we all want that. But you didn't. You want her to leave and you are ok with a possible future where you and MW don't survive. That's not a normal romantic thought process to me.

 

And so I conclude you are less interested in the WS as a human and more of a trophy to be won. In a sense you have already won - she's having an A with you.

 

Will she leave? Dunno. I bet SHE doesn't even know if you ask her to.

 

Actually, what's wrong with that. Simply ask her to file for D to be with you.

[OhDear66]

Oh, I clearly got stories confused.

 

Honestly, it sounds like youre definition of success is to get the MW to leave. More succinctly put, you are competing with her H.

 

I say that as most AP's WANT that forever together - hell we all want that. But you didn't. You want her to leave and you are ok with a possible future where you and MW don't survive. That's not a normal romantic thought process to me.

 

And so I conclude you are less interested in the WS as a human and more of a trophy to be won. In a sense you have already won - she's having an A with you.

 

Will she leave? Dunno. I bet SHE doesn't even know if you ask her to.

 

Actually, what's wrong with that. Simply ask her to file for D to be with you.

 

no no noooo. i am not in any way relating this thread to my own situation, don't take my opinion on this as my opinion on my own thing. i was merely trying to find a way of getting a somewhat better understanding of what this 'success' could be. i wasn't saying i didnt really mind what the future held if the MW were to leave, i was saying that if god forbid the 'imaginary couple' did split up after all this, then if it was for reasons not related to their previous A then you could probably still justify them getting together in the first place

[Got it]

Dear, speaking as someone that has ACTUALLY WALKED DOWN THIS ROAD a couple pieces of advice.

 

Do not think too far ahead on what might be. Focus on today and what the actions are telling you.

 

If you want the relationship to move beyond the affair, lay it all out now and have a very frank heart to heart with her to get a good understanding where each party lies. Do not avoid the tough questions, lay it out there.

 

Look at her actions, what are they telling you?

 

Relationships in generally fail more than they succeed, just look at the dating pool via Match and EHarmony. You are more likely to have a miss than a hit. Add in the extra dynamics of an affair and it takes extra work and two very committed people who will have the tough conversations and transparency. And even then there are no guarantees.

 

Here is how I handled things:

 

1. A clear expectation on what I wanted - that this would not remain an affair. And a mutual agreement to this general idea.

2. Discussion from both sides on what was needed to resolve their marriage and move things forward from a logistical and emotional stance.

3. A clear discussion of expectations, timeline, and expected goals accomplished along the timeline. Also an expectation of the affair and behaviors to remain in it. Then a written recap of said discussion for both parties to refer back to.

4. Constant communication with state of the union discussions along the way.

5. IC for him as well as couples counseling for us.

 

 

And even then life throw in some curveballs. You have to be willing to walk away and stand by your boundaries. You must be your own best advocate in this and any relationship and don't concede yourself in the hopes of a future pay off. It doesn't happen and resentment just builds.

 

I do think more affairs move forward than people realize but we aren't looking at 9 out of 10.

 

As hard as it is, try and put the emotions to the side and look at the facts as they stand today and assess.

[jwi71]

no no noooo. i am not in any way relating this thread to my own situation, don't take my opinion on this as my opinion on my own thing. i was merely trying to find a way of getting a somewhat better understanding of what this 'success' could be. i wasn't saying i didnt really mind what the future held if the MW were to leave, i was saying that if god forbid the 'imaginary couple' did split up after all this, then if it was for reasons not related to their previous A then you could probably still justify them getting together in the first place

 

I'm just full of wrong in this thread aren't I?

 

I think success, in any R, is defined by those in it. The problem is when the parties do not agree upon what success is to them as a couple- yet still have feelings for one another.

 

Such is the human experience.

[Got it]

There is only one known study that claims there is only a 3% success rate. Google Jan Halper.

 

From anecdotal observation the success rate is quite low.

 

The other issue to consider is that you would be marrying someone that has the gene (or should I say meme) to cheat.

 

I am glad you are asking questions and hopefully you can have a discussion with your MOW about these issues.

 

Pierre, as I have requested of you MANY times, please cite your claims. Gene to cheat?

 

In regards to the 3% that was such a small pool of participants with a very specific outcome I am always amused that it gets bantered about. I actually believe, from my experience, that there is a larger number of people start as affairs but it isn't discussed online. Shockingly a large part of the population does not sit on this site, or other relationship forums.

[Got it]

i guess my definition of 'success' would be, the MW/MM leaves to be with the OW/OM, and they end up happy together, and if they split up at some point but it was down to a reason NOT related to the affair or the situation that once was, then i guess you could still call it some what a success. if they split after say a couple of months then of course not, but say they are with each other for a matter of years or something. i may be wrong but just a general outlook i suppose.

 

Also...you may have misread something, as i am not married nor do i have a partner. However, there is a MW.

 

Success is such a subjective term. I think it is hard to have people quantify it. Some will say longevity but happiness is not a major factor, some will say happiness but longevity isn't factored in, some will say security, wealth, etc.

 

Most relationship have the same patterns in place from the beginning. Each parties coming mechanism, communication and conflict resolution skill sets, etc will play a factor throughout the relationship. Most of us still repeat the same patterns from our childhood.

 

I think it is really only in hindsight each party can look back their respective relationships and assess success and the two parties may not agree. For instance, I see my past marriage as largely a success even though we did divorce. During that time period we learned a lot from each other, and many happy times, and was more of a square peg/round hole with little resentment leftover. But I am not sure how my ex would reflect upon it.

 

But I am a glass half full kind of person so if there is a silver lining, a lesson learned, then I see the experience as successful and/or beneficial.

[Decorative]

Pierre, as I have requested of you MANY times, please cite your claims. Gene to cheat?

 

In regards to the 3% that was such a small pool of participants with a very specific outcome I am always amused that it gets bantered about. I actually believe, from my experience, that there is a larger number of people start as affairs but it isn't discussed online. Shockingly a large part of the population does not sit on this site, or other relationship forums.

 

4100 high achieving males made up the bulk of that study.

 

There are a few other smaller studies- Glass has her airport survey annotated in her book, and I believe that is 1500 participants.

 

There is also a research duo that had a sample size of about 2,000, but the name is escaping me at the moment. I blame cold meds. LOL

 

I agree that the research isn't vast on the outcomes of relationships that begin as affairs.

 

But I think in absence of that, the psychological factors that go into an affair and are a known dynamic demonstrate pretty clearly why the majority or relationships don't pass reality testing.

 

Some do. For sure. But looking at divorce rates in general for second marriages ( and subsequent)- that further supports your contention that a shockingly large amount of people start their marriages as affairs, but they don't survive , either.

[MsDecember]

In my opinion, I see my ex H and his OW as unsuccessful in some ways and successful in other ways. The unsuccessful way is that he clung to her when I no longer would put up with his flipflopping. He is still with her, although she is unaware of his continued cheating ways. He uses her for resources and she happily pays his bills. He plays victim like an Oscar award winning actor.

Now if you see success of a family being torn apart for romantic love? Then there was success there as well. It didn't matter the destruction that was left and whose world was turned upside down.

So to say a relationship built on lies, cheating and destruction could ever be successful, that's not possible from my point of view.

[wisernow]

A friend of mine was married close to 20 years, had an affair with a MM. They both divorced their spouses, though the cheating was not discovered. They married a few years later and then he cheated on her (she says, he denied). Anyway they divorced having not even made it to the first anniversary. Real crusher for her is that she lost her alimony when she remarried, got no spousal support from the second marriage. Found herself unemployed, homeless and moved in with her parents. That's the only person IRL that I know of that married their AP. I wouldn't call that a success though.

[thefooloftheyear]

Pierre, as I have requested of you MANY times, please cite your claims. Gene to cheat?

 

In regards to the 3% that was such a small pool of participants with a very specific outcome I am always amused that it gets bantered about. I actually believe, from my experience, that there is a larger number of people start as affairs but it isn't discussed online. Shockingly a large part of the population does not sit on this site, or other relationship forums.

 

Good point!

 

Chances are the "success" stories arent going to be reported on a site like this...I am new to this site, but from what I am reading its more of a place where people vent about what went wrong...

 

I do agree, its not the most honorable way to meet a life partner, but it happens. Even someone like David Petraeus got caught up(and he is probably the last one on the planet that could pull it off)...

 

Not making a blanket statement, just an observation...

 

TFOY

Edited January 3, 2013 by thefooloftheyear
grammatical errors

[OhDear66]

okay i think i need to clear a few things up here guys...

 

Not for a second am i justifying affairs or implying that they are indeed a good thing! not at all. i'm talking in the way of if the MW/MM left their spouse for the OW/OM regardless of how hard or destructive this break up was, im talking about what comes after..purely between the AP's. Pretty much a general outlook on how many end up together and happy and how many do not for whatever reason.

 

This was NOT intended to seem like i was saying the breaking up of marriages and families is a 'successful' thing, of course not!

[Spark1111]

Good point!

 

Chances are the "success" stories arent going to be reported on a site like this...I am new to this site, but from what I am reading its more of a place where people vent about what went wrong...

 

I do agree, its not the most honorable way to meet a life partner, but it happens. Even someone like David Petraeus got caught up(and he is probably the last one on the planet that could pull it off)...

 

Not making a blanket statement, just an observation...

 

TFOY

 

I think the 3 percent that have a true,successful exit affair have the damnedest time relating to and understanding the other 97 percent that do not, and seen very,very vocal about it.

 

I think those who moved immediately to divorce upon learning of the infidelity, have a hard time understanding those who did not.

 

we all present from the perceptions and experiences we lived through. Nothing unusual about that.

 

of all the people I know, and I know a lot, I know of 3 (just thought of another one) Exit affairs and they are sailing happily into the sunset and were characterized by many factors. I also know of other affairs that did lead to a second or third marriage and they are doing....not so well.

 

Alice was right. Some APs DO stay together after the divorce to save face and prove to themselves and others that all that pain and destruction...was worth it.

[Spark1111]

okay i think i need to clear a few things up here guys...

 

Not for a second am i justifying affairs or implying that they are indeed a good thing! not at all. i'm talking in the way of if the MW/MM left their spouse for the OW/OM regardless of how hard or destructive this break up was, im talking about what comes after..purely between the AP's. Pretty much a general outlook on how many end up together and happy and how many do not for whatever reason.

 

This was NOT intended to seem like i was saying the breaking up of marriages and families is a 'successful' thing, of course not!

 

in a nutshell...The couples I KNOW that are successful today did not live in secrecy for long at all. They discovered NORMAL and took fast action to dissolve one relationship and forge another to the full support of family and friends.

 

They were HONEST and open with their former spouses, were kind in the dissolution and equitable and fair.

 

They did not sneak, lie and deceive others for years. They acted with integrity.

 

THAT is who succeeds and I believe, especially from reading here also, that it IS about 3 out of 100.

[OhDear66]

I also apologise for the use of the word 'success' as this obviously offends some people and was not meant in the way it may sound

[seren]

I don't see why relationips that have their roots in an A cannot work, but also think that there might be a period where both redefine their new relationship and have to work on that. A relationship borne out of an A may have barriers and hurdles to cross that one with no baggage will have. There may be children, shared friendships, work colleagues, money, the need for contact with an X and of course families, all of whom will have to readjust to the new person, while having to either cut off or still maintain contact with, the person who has been betrayed and hurt. That can, I would imagine, put a strain on any new relationship and would need careful planning and balancing, it might take many years and not many new relationships can weather such a storm.

 

I also think that such a relationship has to adjust to the openness and all that brings. It is true to say that A's, by their nature of secretiveness has a frisson that might be difficult to sustain long term and maybe that is no bad thing, but I think it would need adjusting to. Dealing with trust would be hard for me, I would wonder if they could do it to their exBS etc etc then they might do it to me, so also think the relationship has mistrust as part of the foundations, maybe this should be discussed and maybe the XWS would need to adress why they dealt with a broken relationship by starting another before the other was ended.

 

I don't condone A's, but they are, unfortunately part and parcel of life, some A's are about meeting a better match, some not, some WS leave early in when finding this is this case and some string the AP along for a long time, each is different. I would say that if the WS left their marriage early on and if they put in the work to understand themselves and if the relationship takes it's time, with no expectations that it will work or should because lives have been tossed about, then of course it can work, but I don't think it is an automatic, look at what I/he/she has left for us to be together, therefore it must be love, will work etc. It would have to be treated as a new relationship with the addition of baggage.

[cocorico]

oh really? thats great! did your partner literally come straight out of the marriage and straight in to your relationship too?

 

I'm not sure I quite understand the question. We were already in a R so he did not have to come straight into it after leaving his M, he was already in it.

 

If you mean, did we break up, he left, we got together again, then no, we continued our R throughout, he simply dumped the vestigial one (his M) and we allowed our R to take its natural course.

 

If you mean, did he move out of her arms / bed / house straight into mine, then no, it wasn't quite that, either. They had been living separately albeit in the same house for some time, and after deciding we wanted to be together he was able to free himself of his constraints (the BW) sooner than I was of mine, so he moved into a new place with the ids and I joined them as soon as I was able, although our R continued openly throughout.

[Got it]

I would imagine there are many "success stories" (particularly long term re-marriages) that only appear to be a success because the former AP's remain married in order to save face.

 

As are true for many long term marriages. We all know the couple that fights bitterly but never divorce because . . . well life is more comfortable with the devil known than the devil unknown.

[Got it]

Hmmm...I wasn't bashing at all. Just saying that there are NO success stories in an affair situation. Not unless one thinks that lying and cheating are successes.

 

By this contention that a marriage, for sake of argument, that goes on for 20 years after starting off as an affair has "no successes" tied to it because of its foundation.

 

I don't agree with this summation. While the BS may feel this way, understandably and because their involvement stops at the point of the affair, others tied to the partnership will have future interactions that may counter this premise.

 

I just find this to be a simplistic perspective that while I understand when someone has been a BS would feel this way, I don't think stepping outside the emotions falls into reason.

[cocorico]

Hmmm...I wasn't bashing at all. Just saying that there are NO success stories in an affair situation. Not unless one thinks that lying and cheating are successes.

 

I disagree. I would say that an outcome where everyone is far better off, and everyone including the BS is much happier (or at least no unhappier) than they were pre-A is definitely a success. I would say the greatest good for the greatest number is the preferred outcome.

 

I don't understand how anyone can call destroying another family a "success." .

 

Sometimes the other "family" was destroyed long before the A. Or it may be abusive, toxic, dysfunctional or harmful, such that "destroying" it is by far the best outcome.

[Got it]

in a nutshell...The couples I KNOW that are successful today did not live in secrecy for long at all. They discovered NORMAL and took fast action to dissolve one relationship and forge another to the full support of family and friends.

 

They were HONEST and open with their former spouses, were kind in the dissolution and equitable and fair.

 

They did not sneak, lie and deceive others for years. They acted with integrity.

 

THAT is who succeeds and I believe, especially from reading here also, that it IS about 3 out of 100.

 

Sorry Spark but I got a chuckle out of this. So how are you defining integrity here? By duration of time? So they lied for a few months/year and so . . . ? Listen I was a OW, our affair was a year, but I would not say because it was less than others that it was of more noble beginnings than another. Because I lied to my spouse less than another it makes it less wrong? Okay, maybe. But I don't know.

 

I was not honest with my spouse about the affair. I left within a few weeks of it starting. So is that better? I did lie and have continued to lie by omission about the affair. But I did end the marriage in about a month of it starting.

 

I don't know, this is where I have a hard time trying to quantify things like success, less bad, integrity, etc. It is just so subjective.

 

I do agree with Seren's post that it is the work that the two put into the relationship. I think this is true for all relationships. When both parties are putting in active energies into the nurturing of their relationship they grow and become stronger. When relationships coast, become stagnant, are not fed by both parties they starve. One side cannot sustain the partnership forever. And it is about finding that other person that is willing, able, and desiring to match energy for energy. Some people never will be those people, some will only do it for a short time, some will not find that counterpart. But that, in my eyes, is how a relationship lasts and is successful. When both parties have a vested and active interest in the health, happiness, and prioritizing of the partnership.

 

OhDear - I wouldn't apologize for the topic or the usage of successful. I think it can lend to a bigger discussion on what that term means for relationships even outside of affairs. It may cause some to trigger but that is their baby to rock and they need to examine why they are doing so. Your question, in my eyes, is a fairly neutral one that isn't/shouldn't be forbidden to discuss or ponder. Sometimes hearing why some relationships are "successful" out of affairs may help all sides understanding their personal whys. For others it will solidify their existing beliefs. Either way a good topic to have I think.

[woinlove]

OhDear has already apologized for the term success and the OP makes it clear that what is really being asked is about stories where the A worked out for the two APs, not for anyone else.

 

I think most (not all) would agree that deception is not good. One doesn't have to be a BS to see feel that way, although obviously BS are directly hurt by the deception and betrayal. Still, the APs could consider things to have worked out, despite thinking it would be even better if they had got there without the deception or even feeling some guilt how they treated others.

 

To work out doesn't mean it was the best process. For those who really don't like deception, they will change and then could make their new R work. For those who don't care about deception, they may consider a new R that lasts until their next A to have worked out. Some will go on to repeat the same deceptive behavior and some won't. Personally, I would not consider repeating the same behavior to be a case of things working out, but I can imagine those who see nothing wrong with A's might.

 

I think if a WS changes, then things can work out for the BS and WS if they reconcile or can work out for the WS and AP if they end up together. The AP in the first case and the BS in the second case are likely to have a different view of the extent to which things worked out.

[William]

OK, that's a half hour I'd like back. Left the marginally tangential topical material and cleaned up the rest. Apologies for any quotes I missed. Stage Three.

 

Discussion of success stories or lack of success stories is relevant to topic. Characterizing other posters or affairs in general is not topical and is a contravention of guidelines within this thread, as it is not a thread about the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of affairs.

 

Each posting will be treated and processed accordingly. One poster has already received a vacation. Let's not add to the list. Carry on.