What men say they want vs. what they really want...

[veggirl]

^ OK, a bit confused here. So men want needy, girly women?? Needy in what way? But then I often hear men say that a girl is acting too needy. One can never win with some people these days. It seems to me that , in the case of some (emotionally unavailable men), women are damned if they're needy and damned if they're not...

 

I don't get it. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

No not needy. That doesn't last and is full of drama. but feminine. Needy girls are usually really girly, apart from the neediness (which...needy is something a lot of dudes like for a while tbh, but not forever)

 

Men like WOMEN. If you act like a guy who happens to have a vagina...that's not attractive for too long *in my experience*.

 

I would never advise a woman to actually be needy...that just sets her up for disappointment and settling for s.hit from guys.

 

I would advise ANY woman to embrace her femininity and enjoy being a woman and not to be afraid to explore traditional female roles...I know most of us grew up thinking that a woman doing those things is somehow setting all women back in time, and I disagree with that.

[edgygirl]

lol so funny to be reading about the feminine part. Went on a date tonight, the guy told me he is sick of American women because they are not feminine! haha! I asked what exactly he meant by that, he said American women don't know how to take care of their man. That it feels as if they are going out with a male friend. That they insist in sharing pleasures and duties as if men and women were the same and had the same roles. I know it sounds chauvinistic but there's truth to it. He's thinking about importing someone. lol! Something women here should think about.

 

The funny thing for me is, as I am not from here, I see how American men behave when I am being feminine. They get totally weird out! They are used to American women!

 

Complicated!

[todreaminblue]

i am bit different in that i dont get the beautiful part i have gotten gorgeous inside and out but that was from my first ever relationship wasnt a sexual one the rest of them were sexual....I once got told by a guy that when we were having a deep and meaningful after i pulled him up on saying nasty things to me to get my girlfriend to date him( she had acne and i didnt ....he told my best friend weezy i called her...not to worry girls like me with clear skin always had pimples on their ass)in the deep and meaningful after that comment ,i told him i didnt appreciate being offended by him ,to get a date with my best friend he gave me this classic line that will never work.....i actually want you but was going for your friend because she was easier than trying for you....needless to say....i didnt date him........his name was......JOHN.....tried to much to be a miami vice don johnson reject...even though i love white, the stubble was a bit much so was his mode of operation......

 

 

i dont think i am all that, i know that i cause intense feelings and can cause intense feelings in people in general if i get to know them so i am selective on who i get to know i also feel intensely when care about someone super protective,.super loyal, super sensitive to them...and if they reject me .....i dont have fun getting over it

i dont think i look anything like i used to look.....I dont like looking in the mirror..i dont see a lot i like in there.....but i have hardly ever been rejected i dont understand why........i just feel it when i do get rejected...

 

 

 

i go for the inner soul..i listen to voice inflections...and i have been fooled before....even then, when it all goes to crap ill stick by people.....and when they dont stick by me....the hurt i feel is phenomenal.......so I need to toughen up ......in love anyway.....i dont think i am the type of woman for most guys.....if any guy......i am not high maintenance.....most of the time.......in fact i can survive on little of everything but when i do need maintenance its a matter for sticking by me ....riding it out....and i havent found a guy who can......so all in all it is pretty impossible for me to meet someone compatible....i have too many nuances..when i do meet someone who is compatible who i am attracted too its a rarity....that i have to kamikaze......or i develop relationships from friendships....my first ever relationship was me kamikaze style...the last guy i kamikazed too, i got rejected.......it felt right, and i thought i felt a spark, it was only mine........now i am a bit of a mess but i am coping......not sure how i am going to approach anything.....just relying on faith and long walks to get me through.......dating.....not sure.....dont think i am ready to date others.i can do things on impulse so maybe one day..i still have feelings for the guy who rejected me they arent going away anytime soon.....

 

so i will just get on with my life, i have family and true friends......as far as a guy goes.....its unknown..ill probably end up raising llamas and exploring being self sufficient....travel one day hopefully.....good luck with you and yours..psa i have written dont dont dont over and over through this post....its telling me not to date unconsciously ......its saying i am not ready....lol.....deb

Edited January 3, 2013 by todreaminblue

[ChessPieceFace]

I understand from talking to all of the males in my life and reading for years here on LS that men want:

 

1. Someone who doesn't play games, who is good to them, and loves them as they are.

2. Someone beautiful and sexy who thoroughly enjoys and is excited about sex.

3. Someone who won't cheat or lie or try to change them.

4. Someone who is strong and independent (not clingy or desperate) but knows how to love openly.

5. Someone who has her own life, makes her own money, and is not a gold digger.

6. Someone who can cook, clean, make a home, but isn't stuck in that role.

7. Someone adventurous and ready to take chances.

 

Basically someone just like me.

 

You seriously think you are qualified to definitively judge ALL of those things about yourself? That strikes me as arrogant.

 

There is truth to what people are saying about some flaws actually being better for attraction, but I also have to wonder whether you genuinely fill all 7 of those supposed qualifications as well as you think. #2, 4 and 7 in particular. If you were really sexy, independent and adventurous I would think you'd have guys in line to be with you. Not all of them would want a relationship and not all of them would be worthwhile, but I can't believe none of them would be.

 

Also, I have to wonder how many guys you're basing this on. Suspecting maybe you're generalizing on too few cases.

[Sugarkane]

Men always say they want someone who doesn't nag or talk too much. Yet I've been dumped in the past for being too quiet. I'll never understand.

[Lonely Ronin]

Men always say they want someone who doesn't nag or talk too much. Yet I've been dumped in the past for being too quiet. I'll never understand.

 

That's because every guy is different. I mean honestly whats wrong with some of you people on this thread? It's like you think you have to be one extreme or the other.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I dunno; I personally think that nobody that has problems dating is "too good". When people dump us, there is something missing in us and saying that we are "too perfect" is a white lie.

 

Op; you sound kind of defensive and seem to lack self-awareness. It is quite possible that your people picker is off and you are attracted to men that will ultimately reject you.

[SJC2008]

IMO society is so screwed it's hard to find genuine, honest people. And people who aren't emotionally damaged. Only 1 out of 10 couples discuss their problems and don't argue! As to the emotionally damaged angle: MANY people subconsciously date to fill an emotional void. The younger girl with the older man (daddy issues), the woman who cant't leave her physically/emotionally abusive man (only love she knows, it's normal to her). The guy who is attracted to controlling women (me). I even asked in a recent people picker thread if I could APPRECIATE a great woman? Logically hell yeah I could but emotionally the domineering woman is addictive like crack! I'm stuck in the middle though because I'm too strong for the conrtol freaks and to weak for the "normal" woman. Throw in SA and you have a man in his early 30's who's never had a gf. So is it possible you are one if the few people who grew up in an almost perfectly "healthy" environment you don't have any voids to fill and men aren't getting their voids filled because you don't offer the dysfunction their emotions need?

 

To me the perfect woman is one who isn't turned off by vulnerability in a man and KNOWS that men need affection just like woman. I have pride and wouldn't want to be caught dead crying in front of my GF (if I had one). But I would want to know it would be okay to and if I truly beleived she felt that way I just might if it happened. She would also have to beleive in communication! Sometimes you have to hurt someone to save a R. Meaning if I'm not meeting your needs and you are tempted to cheat tell me. Sure it'll hurt but not as much as if she cheated and the R failed. That is the only woman I'll marry. But I'll probably propose to the control freak lol!

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

When a guy says that you are fabulous, beautiful, intelligent, witty etc, he means it BUT he means it in a way that implies "you are a good person and you will find someone who can enjoy those great qualities, but I just can't get that CHEMISTRY with you."

 

 

Yup. And this is EXACTLY what numerous guys spend hours "theorizing" about and mounting defenses against around here under the dreaded moniker, "THE FRIEND ZONE." The main difference is that when you're a woman on the receiving end of it, usually the guy was willing to enjoy a sexual side to the "friendship," where as the women who "friend zone" don't.

 

It happens to women and men both, all the time.

[Mme. Chaucer]

You seriously think you are qualified to definitively judge ALL of those things about yourself? That strikes me as arrogant.

 

I agree. Many of the listed superlative qualities are the type that are more correctly affirmed by people besides ourselves, too.

 

I mean, if I think I'm "all that" but nobody else does … perhaps I'm not really "all that"?

 

Not to say we should be seeking all of our validation from outside of ourselves; that's a bad trap. But if we perceive ourselves completely differently than others do, there seems to be a disconnect.

[PhoenixRysing]

Okay listen, I've been through this also. My last ex bf did the same exact thing, he gave me the honorary title of "best woman ever" right before he kicked me to the ground and said, "but you're just not the one."

 

When a guy says that you are fabulous, beautiful, intelligent, witty etc, he means it BUT he means it in a way that implies "you are a good person and you will find someone who can enjoy those great qualities, but I just can't get that CHEMISTRY with you."

 

Basically, he is letting you down easy because he does care and love you in some way, just not THAT way. It took me enough breakups to look past the "I'm great, articulate, sexy capable women" line and start looking at it for what it really, truly was: He just wasn't that into me.

 

It's not YOUR fault, nor his. It's just how he feels. Ever meet a great guy who is romantic, funny, smart, great smile, loyal, great job, but for some reason you can't find that spark in him? This is why. This is exactly how he feels.

 

So, instead you meet guys who are emotionally constipated because deep down inside you are emotionally constipated.

 

Maybe, it's YOU who needs to change what you look for in a guy...Maybe you are picking all the wrong guys and looking past the ones who would actually treat you right and appreciate you.

 

Trust me, I'm right here with you and it took me long enough to realize that I was my own worst enemy.

 

I agree with you on all counts. I am fine that the gentlemen in question would be just not that in to me, after all people simply have a right to chose. My confusion comes in as to why? I have dated folks where I could see the issue and understood why we did not fit, its the one where it all flows and still gotten this story. Honestly I understand that men sometimes just won't have that special spark with me, and fine with that - I just wonder if there is something I am doing that is causing it when there is a pattern of sorts.

 

I totally agree with all of this, and in addition I think that part of a man feeling masculine etc is his woman being feminine.

 

Are you that? Do you do the stereotypical feminine things? Cooking for him and cleaning, etc? Men like feminine women.

 

If nothing anyone has said is "it" then there is something else......like has been said you can be perfect on paper but perhaps your personality is too weird or too over the top or something like that..?

 

the thing you'll notice with the needy girls these guys end up with is that the needy girl is typically very girly. A guy can say all he wants is strong and independent but at the end of the day he still wants a WOMAN. the things you listed in your OP could apply to his male best friend, apart from sex.

 

Yes, I am quite feminine in the way I take care of a man. I am one to flirt, tease, dress sexily, and cook a mean spaghetti dinner (sauce from scratch) and served with linens. I am the first to admit that in my day job I am more male in my traits (technology manager - I have to be) due to an all male work force. However, at home, I am ready and willing to be all woman.

 

Welcome to LS!

 

I'm very sorry you were treated in such a way. No offense to your list, but to me those all seem like great attributes, but they are also very surfacy. Heck, Kim Kardashian would probably fit many of those attributes. But there is no way I would want to have a relationship with such a woman. Here are other things that might supplement your list that might help:

 

Do you have a vision for your life that you are passionate about and that I could share in? (that's what gets me excited about a woman)

Do you have a spiritual dimension? Do you pray for me, speak to my spirit, believe in me when no one else does?

Do you fill in my areas where I am lacking so that together we would make a stronger team in life?

How do you handle conflict?

Are you okay to tell me where I need improvement, but patient enough to give time to grow? I believe a woman can very much prune a man and God will use a woman to do that.

Are you kind? Gentle?

Do you have wisdom (different than intelligence)?

At 35, do you have motherly attributes that I could see you as the mother of my children (assuming you want a family?)

Are you a good steward with you life, resources, and time?

Do you have any vices which could frustrate a man such as much drama in your life, overbearing family strife, party to much, drink too much, etc?

 

I could go on, but while I'm sure you are a great woman. Many men look for other things beyond just the surface resume. I do anyway Wishing you much success in 2013. I hope this doesn't seem harsh and again welcome to LS.

 

Excellent questions. I am quite passionate about my life, dreams, and goals and very open about sharing that passion. I am agnostic but believe in a greater spirit and I am very concious about finding ways to honor that spirit. As for conflict, I believe in talking things out and finding the win/win. I am no saint, but believe there is always a way to find a common ground. I am fine with helping a man grow and giving him the space to do it, though if he is happy where he is I accept that as well. The only thing I have issue with is people in general that whine about their lives but do nothing to change. Wisdom is a hard one to call, and all I can say that I do well in my career and with friends when they need advice. As to whether that is real wisdom, I tend to believe that people at my age can't make that claim. Every day I wake up wiser than the day before so I am not sure I will ever feel ready to claim achievement of wisdom.

 

As for motherly traits, I have 6 god-children (my friends all trust me to take over for them if something should happen) and I have helped to raise a step-daughter and a foster daughter who are both now well-adjusted women in their early 20s (my ex was 13 yeas older than me). I am great with my life resources and time at work, though I do tend to be a procrastinator. Nothing is ever late, but it may well get done in a flurry at the last minute! As to the vices, I drink, occassionally enjoy a cigar in the company that also enjoys one, but I don't get wasted or chain smoke. My family is rather conservative and stays out of my personal life with the exception of wanting me to be happy.

 

As for the rest being surface, you are completely right, I was trying to be relatively generic without giving my life history for the sake of brevity, but perhaps the above helps?

 

Thanks again for the thoughts and the welcome!

 

You seriously think you are qualified to definitively judge ALL of those things about yourself? That strikes me as arrogant.

 

There is truth to what people are saying about some flaws actually being better for attraction, but I also have to wonder whether you genuinely fill all 7 of those supposed qualifications as well as you think. #2, 4 and 7 in particular. If you were really sexy, independent and adventurous I would think you'd have guys in line to be with you. Not all of them would want a relationship and not all of them would be worthwhile, but I can't believe none of them would be.

 

Also, I have to wonder how many guys you're basing this on. Suspecting maybe you're generalizing on too few cases.

 

No, I don't think I am qualified to judge these things about myself and worried that it might come across as arrogant but I needed to frame the question somehow so I was trying to give a perspective on the general feedback I have received from others. I have honestly even candidly questioned friends if any of this is true. I agree with you that if all of this is true, in theory I should not be having as hard a time as I am. Hence asking LS what I was missing.

 

In fact, especially with #2 I have never seen myself as beautiful, sexy, or attractive. However, this is a source of much debate with my friends and lovers. My ex-husband particularly had issue with it and thought I was being falsely modest to call myself average. I am confident in my capabilities but I have never been confident in my looks to the degree to call myself beautiful. Don't get me wrong, I am quite happy with myself but I don't see stunning when I look in the mirror. Again, just going based on feedback.

 

As to the others, I do feel confident in assessing my own life. I have overcome many obstacles and I am proud of that. My adventurous side, well I guess that does depend on perspective - I won't sky dive in the near future but I will try just about anything else at least once!

 

You are right in that my sample size is flawed. I am going based on my experiences with the last 2 years since my divorce in terms of the conversations mentioned. However, the note about never being asked out has been true for my entire life.

 

I dunno; I personally think that nobody that has problems dating is "too good". When people dump us, there is something missing in us and saying that we are "too perfect" is a white lie.

 

Op; you sound kind of defensive and seem to lack self-awareness. It is quite possible that your people picker is off and you are attracted to men that will ultimately reject you.

 

Agree on the first point, though I am a bit surprised on the second. I feel quite open to all of your comments and I have tried to respond honestly when questioned. I am very curious how I come across defensively as that may very well be part of my issue. I can see how I would be interpreted as lacking self-awareness though since I have tried to keep this thread generic for more input. I am happy to address any specific questions you might have though.

 

I agree. Many of the listed superlative qualities are the type that are more correctly affirmed by people besides ourselves, too.

 

I mean, if I think I'm "all that" but nobody else does … perhaps I'm not really "all that"?

 

Not to say we should be seeking all of our validation from outside of ourselves; that's a bad trap. But if we perceive ourselves completely differently than others do, there seems to be a disconnect.

 

I couldn't agree more. In fact that is part of the reason I started this thread. Much of what I hear seems to be a bit over the top and it begs the question, if I am all that, then why am I struggling. My working assumption has been that therefor I am not all that. However this is working against me in reality since the men I date all seem to leave and later clarify that they felt like they could not measure up in some way.

 

As to how good I am, I will deal with that with those who know me IRL since I could spend a year writing a novel and still not give you all enough to help me define that. I chose to address the other side of possibility with a question I felt more easily answerable by people who don't know me and have their own experiences to share. Is it possible that men really are incapable of feeling inspired to love a woman that they percieve is perfect?

 

It sounds like that this may very well be a possibility. I imagine the men I have dated are much like the responses I have gotten here - a mixed bag. Some did not feel the spark, some were insecure, some were committmentphobes, and some were seriously confused. There is a trend, but I guess the only thing I should focus on is what several of you suggested is the only thing in my control - my picker. Not a bad thread to start in and of itself!

[spooky48]

Bottom line...it all goes back to who likes what and what YOU like doesn't necessarily mean that others will like it.

 

People should just be brutually honest though. Just don't lie, play games or lead anyone on.

 

If you are not interested, attracted (physically, emotionally or mentally) to someone, just end the relationship in the beginning. Don't go out on anymore dates or have contact with that person.

 

Leading someone on is one of the ways in which all of these "games" are created & confusion occurs.

[TheFinalWord]

 

Excellent questions. I am quite passionate about my life, dreams, and goals and very open about sharing that passion. I am agnostic but believe in a greater spirit and I am very concious about finding ways to honor that spirit. As for conflict, I believe in talking things out and finding the win/win. I am no saint, but believe there is always a way to find a common ground. I am fine with helping a man grow and giving him the space to do it, though if he is happy where he is I accept that as well. The only thing I have issue with is people in general that whine about their lives but do nothing to change. Wisdom is a hard one to call, and all I can say that I do well in my career and with friends when they need advice. As to whether that is real wisdom, I tend to believe that people at my age can't make that claim. Every day I wake up wiser than the day before so I am not sure I will ever feel ready to claim achievement of wisdom.

 

As for motherly traits, I have 6 god-children (my friends all trust me to take over for them if something should happen) and I have helped to raise a step-daughter and a foster daughter who are both now well-adjusted women in their early 20s (my ex was 13 yeas older than me). I am great with my life resources and time at work, though I do tend to be a procrastinator. Nothing is ever late, but it may well get done in a flurry at the last minute! As to the vices, I drink, occassionally enjoy a cigar in the company that also enjoys one, but I don't get wasted or chain smoke. My family is rather conservative and stays out of my personal life with the exception of wanting me to be happy.

 

As for the rest being surface, you are completely right, I was trying to be relatively generic without giving my life history for the sake of brevity, but perhaps the above helps?

 

Thanks again for the thoughts and the welcome!

 

Wisdom is the ability to discern difference In people, in situations, in circumstances. The ability to judge accurately and act on the judgement.

 

In what ways is your vision different and in what ways is your vision similar to these men you are dating? Do you get any red flags during the dating process with these men? Even the smallest thing? If so, what are they? Or is everything appear great to you and suddenly he ends things? If that is the case, there is something you are missing IMHO I have never had a relationship end where no red flag ever appeared. If not during the dating process, upon reflection I found things I should have noticed earlier.

 

The reason I ask about the vision aspect, is because even if a woman has X number of great attributes, if she is not going in the same direction as me I will not be able to picture a future with her. A man has to be able to envision a future with you (I assume you are seeking men that want a permanent relationship, I do not know what kind of men you are dating). What I mean is he can actually visualize you fitting into the vision he has for his life; and he wants to fit into yours similarly. Yes life happens and there are bumps, but the visions in the major areas have to align.

 

For example, I dated a very beautiful girl: smart, intelligent, loved God, cute, cooked (she was no chef, but she could cook the food I liked; a lot of women don't realize that a man doesn't need a pro chef, just be able to make what he likes haha) loved people...etc. The works. However, she wanted to be a permanent missionary in Scotland. I commend her over and over again, but that is not the vision I have for my life so it ended. Yes, that is probably an extreme example, but if a man cannot see a future with you all of those other attributes begin to fade away when he seriously considers commitment.

 

"I want to be a stay at home wife, but pursue men making low salary where it will not be possible for that lifestyle" or the opposite, man wants such a wife and woman is very career oriented.

 

"I want a man that will be home with me each night that we can go out to fine dining restaurants" meanwhile man has a job as traveling salesman and cannot fulfill such a need.

 

"I want a man that will go partying with me every weekend, backpack across Europe, etc" Meanwhile man is more home body.

 

These are silly examples, but you get my drift that even if you are the ideal woman, if you your lifestyle and life goals/dreams do not line up with a man, he will simply not see you as fitting into his future. Again I am assuming you are seeking relationship-driven men. At some point if a relationship seeking man does not see things aligning (and it can take time to figure that out), he will end things, regardless of being the model woman in terms of surface characteristics

 

As a corollary, if the man you are interested in has no vision for his life, or similarly if you do not have a clear picture of your life, then it is risky b/c there is no sense of permanence. You are not giving him any "picture" of a future with you (men are visual, sexually and also as it relates to the future). Create a picture of a future with you early on, if it is a man you weed out as a guy worthy of a relationship with you. Words work, but a man needs a picture imprinted on his mind. Women have the ability to create that, but many don't realize it IMHO.

 

I do think you are a very introspective person, and that is a great character trait. One reason I think that is b/c you take time to consider other people's opinions and reflect on the input received; most people do not genuinely want others advice for the purpose of honest self-improvement. On this forum for example, a lot of posts are motivated by self-validation for shaming and slandering the opposite sex as to remain in a perpetual state of self-fulfilling prophecy.

Edited January 3, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[PhoenixRysing]

TFW - your post resonates with me more than anything else I have considered. But before I explain I want to sincerely thank you for taking the time to respond so clearly and honestly.

 

I think you may well have hit the nail on the head. I do have a vision, but it is a split one and as such, I am probably doing myself a disservice when it comes to the men that I chose.

 

Part of me wants to continue my current trajectory. I love my job, I mean I am completely in love with my job and I am extraordinarily proud of what I have accomplished. My job is my life in a lot of ways because it requires significant research, travel, socializing, and constant fire drills (there is a 24x7 escalation aspect to my current role). My job gives me great satisfaction and great joy.

 

However, after raising the children of others, I really would like to have children of my own. I left my ex-husband because I realized I did not want to have children with him.

 

That said, I am completely unsure what that looks like. I have had an idea that I would continue to be the breadwinner and have a stay at home husband. Unfortunately, this idea does not really sit well with most men. I am completely open to taking a more traditional role in the right situation but I have always been of the mind that whatever person can provide better in a relationship should be the breadwinner. Because I am incredibly successful, it is almost impossible to find a man who is more well-off financially than I am, or who has a better potential.

 

Most of the men I dated verbalized that they felt the same, however as the relationships have progressed and they have come to clearer understanding of exactly what my career entails, they have then begun to back off. I think they begin to see they cannot "maintain me" in my lifestyle and thus they would be a stay at home, or primary parent.

 

That said, I do believe on some level I would be willing to accept less than I make and step into the primary role for the right man, but the conversation doesn't usually get that far. For those where it has, they then have feelings of guilt, that they would be holding me back. That even though I am willing to be a more traditional mother and it is ultimately my call to walk away from continued career progression, they would somehow be responsibile for extinquishing my light...

 

I have known on some level that I have a really tough decision to make regarding career vs. family, and I always knew I was going to have to finally cement that vision but to date, I have not. I guess I tell myself that I will just deal with it when and if I fall in love. Of course, by then it is too late since any man who does actually love me will never want to stand in the way of what he percieves as my vision (my career).

 

Sigh...yep, I think you nailed it - and me.

 

I need to chose my vision.

Edited January 3, 2013 by PhoenixRysing

[JuneJulySeptember]

If I take your post for verbatim as you tell it. Then you're having the same issue as me. Men these days feel insecure when a woman seems to have it all and they then decide to date a female uglier and less intelligent so it builds their ego.

 

Ive seen it happen a million times. I don't know what the answer is as I am in the same predicament. I'd like to think that I'll just finally find a sane man.

 

Well. I have no idea why men might dump you.

 

No idea whatsoever. Ahem.

[ThaWholigan]

Well. I have no idea why men might dump you.

 

No idea whatsoever. Ahem.

She has a point. Men who subscribe to the whole leagues thing tend to date women they feel is "within their range", rather than who they are attracted to, allowing their insecurities to take reign. Not a majority, but it does happen.

[TheFinalWord]

TFW - your post resonates with me more than anything else I have considered. But before I explain I want to sincerely thank you for taking the time to respond so clearly and honestly.

 

I think you may well have hit the nail on the head. I do have a vision, but it is a split one and as such, I am probably doing myself a disservice when it comes to the men that I chose.

 

Part of me wants to continue my current trajectory. I love my job, I mean I am completely in love with my job and I am extraordinarily proud of what I have accomplished. My job is my life in a lot of ways because it requires significant research, travel, socializing, and constant fire drills (there is a 24x7 escalation aspect to my current role). My job gives me great satisfaction and great joy.

 

However, after raising the children of others, I really would like to have children of my own. I left my ex-husband because I realized I did not want to have children with him.

 

That said, I am completely unsure what that looks like. I have had an idea that I would continue to be the breadwinner and have a stay at home husband. Unfortunately, this idea does not really sit well with most men. I am completely open to taking a more traditional role in the right situation but I have always been of the mind that whatever person can provide better in a relationship should be the breadwinner. Because I am incredibly successful, it is almost impossible to find a man who is more well-off financially than I am, or who has a better potential.

 

Most of the men I dated verbalized that they felt the same, however as the relationships have progressed and they have come to clearer understanding of exactly what my career entails, they have then begun to back off. I think they begin to see they cannot "maintain me" in my lifestyle and thus they would be a stay at home, or primary parent.

 

That said, I do believe on some level I would be willing to accept less than I make and step into the primary role for the right man, but the conversation doesn't usually get that far. For those where it has, they then have feelings of guilt, that they would be holding me back.

 

I have known on some level that I have a really tough decision to make regarding career vs. family, and I always knew I was going to have to finally cement that vision but to date, I have not. I guess I tell myself that I will just deal with it when and if I fall in love. Of course, by then it is too late since any man who does actually love me will never want to stand in the way of what he percieves as my vision (my career).

 

Sigh...yep, I think you nailed it - and me.

 

I need to chose my vision.

 

You're welcome. I'm glad it helped.

 

It's a common fork in the road a lot of people are facing these days, in this depressed economy. Two family income is required to have children, unless one or the other is in a high income bracket. In which case, if you are that person, you have to defy society's conventions and the man has to be the stay at home...unless you decide to go the daycare/nanny route. For the record, I know there are men out there that would be a stay-at-home dad. Admittedly, it might be more difficult to find, but it is out there But I think that is a conclusion that has to be reached together; if you give it up front most men will probably reject the idea. The men I know that are stay at home dads, they got married, had a child, and decided together the best thing was to live off of her salary. Not saying it could not be decided up front, but I've never met anyone that did it that way. Perhaps others on the board that have experience could help you there.

 

IMHO, you were married so already know how to plant a picture in a man's mind. Some women have this ability to do it intrinsically. I think the primary part of your vision is that you want to have your own children. That is a great start.

 

In terms of how you get there, that is something that can be decided with the right man. You don't have to have all of the problems solved, but the problem needs to be defined and a man has to see himself being able to solve it (with your input of course). You know what you want, but at what cost are you willing to have it? Do you have to have lifestyle X in order to have your own children? Nothing you have to answer here, but just questions to consider.

 

Basically, what are you willing to sacrifice and how flexible are you willing to be? All the best to you!

[chucksagent]

OP....let me ask you a question and I want 100% honesty.

 

Do you only date Mimbo's? aka Men who are good looking but not much between the ears?

 

The reason I ask is because MOST women I personally know like you, REFUSE to date any guy who isn't great looking, tall, and in shape.

 

Well unfortunately, I'd say 80% of smart/successful men are NOT those things because they have spent 4-7 years with their face in a book trying to earn a degree that pays big money. Then when they finish, they work LONG hours trying to make money and a difference in the world.

 

And with how awesome you sound, it would take an awesome dude to feel comfortable in his skin with you. Alas, even mimbo's deep down know their true value (which isn't much). All they like to do is work out, do cocaine, and watch Jersey Shore.

 

NOW, if you have met OTHER successful men who just HAPPEN to also be good looking...Ask yourself, are they funny? Are they confident (REAL confidence, not fake)? Because those are important factors too. Brains, humor, wit, career, are all MUCH more important than height and weight.

 

But women today seem to have forgotten that. Men throughout HISTORY have been superficial (it's biological and in their genes) whereas women have NEVER been so concerned about looks throughout all of history until the MTV generation. Biologically, women have traditionally wanted a strong man who makes her feel comfortable and is a good partner.

[PhoenixRysing]

You're welcome. I'm glad it helped.

 

It's a common fork in the road a lot of people are facing these days, in this depressed economy. Two family income is required to have children, unless one or the other is in a high income bracket. In which case, if you are that person, you have to defy society's conventions and the man has to be the stay at home...unless you decide to go the daycare/nanny route. For the record, I know there are men out there that would be a stay-at-home dad. Admittedly, it might be more difficult to find, but it is out there But I think that is a conclusion that has to be reached together; if you give it up front most men will probably reject the idea. The men I know that are stay at home dads, they got married, had a child, and decided together the best thing was to live off of her salary. Not saying it could not be decided up front, but I've never met anyone that did it that way. Perhaps others on the board that have experience could help you there.

 

IMHO, you were married so already know how to plant a picture in a man's mind. Some women have this ability to do it intrinsically. I think the primary part of your vision is that you want to have your own children. That is a great start.

 

In terms of how you get there, that is something that can be decided with the right man. You don't have to have all of the problems solved, but the problem needs to be defined and a man has to see himself being able to solve it (with your input of course). You know what you want, but at what cost are you willing to have it? Do you have to have lifestyle X in order to have your own children? Nothing you have to answer here, but just questions to consider.

 

Basically, what are you willing to sacrifice and how flexible are you willing to be? All the best to you!

 

Thank you. I will keep thinking about what I want. I am absolutely willing to sacrifice my current lifestyle for love, family, and children. I believe my difficulty has been finding a man that is OK with that or OK with being the primary caregiver. Most seem to want a traditional role or have overwhelming guilt once they truly understand what I would be leaving behind. The level of success I have achieved is many a man's goal, and they can't comprehend why I would let that go. It's a choice most of them never have to make. But I will keep working on my vision - and at least clarifying in my own head which options I am really happy with. As you pointed out, I can save the details for the time when I have a partner to help decide them.

 

OP....let me ask you a question and I want 100% honesty.

 

Do you only date Mimbo's? aka Men who are good looking but not much between the ears?

 

The reason I ask is because MOST women I personally know like you, REFUSE to date any guy who isn't great looking, tall, and in shape.

 

Well unfortunately, I'd say 80% of smart/successful men are NOT those things because they have spent 4-7 years with their face in a book trying to earn a degree that pays big money. Then when they finish, they work LONG hours trying to make money and a difference in the world.

 

And with how awesome you sound, it would take an awesome dude to feel comfortable in his skin with you. Alas, even mimbo's deep down know their true value (which isn't much). All they like to do is work out, do cocaine, and watch Jersey Shore.

 

NOW, if you have met OTHER successful men who just HAPPEN to also be good looking...Ask yourself, are they funny? Are they confident (REAL confidence, not fake)? Because those are important factors too. Brains, humor, wit, career, are all MUCH more important than height and weight.

 

But women today seem to have forgotten that. Men throughout HISTORY have been superficial (it's biological and in their genes) whereas women have NEVER been so concerned about looks throughout all of history until the MTV generation. Biologically, women have traditionally wanted a strong man who makes her feel comfortable and is a good partner.

 

Absolutely not! Most of the men I have dated were not traditionally attractive and even those that were, I never really saw that. I genuinely love men for all that they are and looks only factor in so far as I cannot be disgusted by them. I tend to be nutty about quirks in a man's look, a wicked grin, the way his eyes crinkle when he smiles, how he carries himself. In fact, I am hardly ever attracted to anyone at first meeting because it is the mind that stimulates my lady parts. To give examples, my celebrity crushes are Ari Fleischer and Brian Cox (the physicist).

 

All of the men I have dated were of average to extraordinary intelligence and average to extraordinary good looks. What has always made the difference to me was something about the way they looked at life. They have been artists, blue-collar ops guys, salesmen and techies like myself. The only thing they have in common in both looks and character has been a wicked sense of humor and a twinkle in their eyes.

 

All I need in the looks department is for him to be confident about himself and not worry that I am running off after the first pretty boy that winks at me...So your point remains valid though it is usually the opposite. In other words, really bright men who don't think they are attractive enough to keep me from pursuing a Brad Pitt wannabe.

[chucksagent]

You are wise Phoenix...

 

You may have pegged the problem...

 

Not trying to sound cocky, but here is some brutal honesty.

 

I am a very smart guy...I am a funny guy (I've been told by most I'm the funniest person they have ever met)...I have a lot of friends...My family all acts like it's a tragedy if I miss one family event...People tell me I'm the life of the party...I drive a sports car...I make GREAT money as a trial attorney...But I'm 5'9 and weight about 260 lbs...Girls have told me throughout my whole life I have amazing eyes and a great smile...BUT....I have never overcome my own demons from my weight.

 

My fiance is GORGEOUS...There are times we are making love and I look at her and feel guilty or think of how pathetic I am...Like "WHY" is she having sex with me...she MUST be having sex with somebody else too because THIS (her beauty) is being wasted on me.

 

BUT, at the end of the day, I can reel myself in because she and I have soooooooo much in common, have sooooooooo many laughs together, and genuinely enjoy each-others company (usually lol). We are on the same page politically, familialialy, goal-wise, morally, financially, etc. So all these things ANCHOR my paranoia/insecurities....But these guys you describe may not have a strong enough anchor.

[PhoenixRysing]

Thanks for sharing that CA. It is good to know that there are men who can get beyond their insecurities and focus on the love in their lives. I hope one day to find one just like you!