MrCastle Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 As Ronin says, I think you're projecting a lot here. The single, heterosexual men whom YOU know and identify with probably view opposite sex friendships in this manner. That doesn't mean that all men are the same. Your recent explanation (which I agree with, re: imbalanced feelings) doesn't justify having '0 female friends' either. Most healthy adults don't have literally 0 friends of one particular gender. I only talk to women I'm attracted to, so, yeah. If the feeling is not mutual, I don't see why I need to continue talking to them. I certainly have female acquaintances; women that I'm on friendly terms with, but that have the underlying possibility of a hookup in the future. But none that I would consider "friends". I call the acquaintances "chicks I know", I certainly wouldn't call them friends. I don't trust them with secrets, they're not there to bail me out of jams when I need them, or cheer me up when I'm down--I have my bros for that.
Els Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 It's fine that you are that way, you just need to stop projecting you and your friends' mindsets to all men. Trust me, you guys make up a small minority of all men.
JuneJulySeptember Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 Yeah, and some women use men for that. They call them friends and use them to serve whatever needs or wants they may have, all along the guy thinks he's getting closer to the girl when in reality he's hurting his chances with every move. Pretty much. Some men don't realize that you have just as good a chance with the girl behind the counter at Bed/Bath/Beyond (whom I briefly considered asking for her phone # today) than with the gal who has known you for a year and adores you as a person. Just part of this f@cked up world. 2
MrCastle Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 Again, if I only talk to women I'm attracted to, only two options are possible, since I certainly don't do friend zones. Either 1.) they accept my date, and if things just don't work out, we can try the friends thing after, or 2.) if they don't accept the date, communication is ended. Not a whole lot of room for me to make female friends with those being the only acceptable options I'm cool with. Unless I'm making friends with women who don't like me sexually and vice versa.
JuneJulySeptember Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 Again, if I only talk to women I'm attracted to, only two options are possible, since I certainly don't do friend zones. Either 1.) they accept my date, and if things just don't work out, we can try the friends thing after, or 2.) if they don't accept the date, communication is ended. Not a whole lot of room for me to make female friends with those being the only acceptable options I'm cool with. Unless I'm making friends with women who don't like me sexually and vice versa. It's a very smart plan in terms of having success with women and protecting yourself emotionally, a brilliant plan actually. But, you also lose the dynamic that female friends bring to the table. You can talk about different things with them than your guy friends and do different things. One thing you can do is try to be friends with some of your exes, if they are cool with that. 1
Lonely Ronin Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 But you can't have one person that legit wants to be friends, and another who says they want to be friends, but secretly wants to date the other person and just hangs around in the hopes that one day they'll get their shot. I completely agree with this, and frankly way to many guys do this. The term I hear most to refer to them is orbiters. Sure there can exist two people who share a mutual unattraction to each other, and just like each other for their comany. That can certainly work. But you can't have a man ask a woman out, get turned down, and then say "alright, well then let's just be friends :)". You also don't have very many single men going out there with the intention of finding attraction women to be their friends. I think part of this issue, is it seems a lot of men are complete crap when it comes to reading women. They can't tell who is interested, who isn't, and who is on the fence. It's why I almost never get rejected, I don't waste my time approaching someone who doesn't show significant signs of interest. No single straight man looks to make friends with attractive women. He settles for it. I guess it depends on what you mean by settles, because I have some very attractive female friends that I would never date, because in a relationship their personalites would drive me up a wall.
Els Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 Again, if I only talk to women I'm attracted to.... Well, yeah, this is the part where you lose me. Most adult men I know don't think in this manner, ie predicating their social interactions solely on gender/attractiveness.
MrCastle Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 But, you also lose the dynamic that female friends bring to the table. You can talk about different things with them than your guy friends and do different things. Well, I mean, that's what the acquaintances are for. Friends to me means two people who have no chance of hooking up. They either both made that decision, or one person secretly likes the other but the decision was made for them. The acquaintances provide that female interaction you speak of, but there is also the potential for more down the road.
MrCastle Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 Well, yeah, this is the part where you lose me. Most adult men I know don't think in this manner, ie predicating their social interactions solely on gender/attractiveness. I'm an adult man and I do. It's just the way it is.
Els Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 I'm an adult man and I do. It's just the way it is. I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that not all, or even the majority, of single heterosexual men think the same way you do, which was your original statement.
JuneJulySeptember Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that not all, or even the majority, of single heterosexual men think the same way you do, which was your original statement. I haven't thought like he does throughout my adult life, but his approach is optimal for success with women. Definitely. 2
Els Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 I haven't thought like he does throughout my adult life, but his approach is optimal for success with women. Definitely. If you define 'success' as 'sleeping with lots of different women without forming any sort of meaningful connection', then yes, I'd probably agree. Unfortunately there are also some men whose idea of success in the romantic department is different.
Lonely Ronin Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 I haven't thought like he does throughout my adult life, but his approach is optimal for success with women. Definitely. Only if your definition of success is having a lot of casual sex.
MrCastle Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that not all, or even the majority, of single heterosexual men think the same way you do, which was your original statement. My original statement was single heterosexual men are not looking for female friends. And they're not. They may have them, they may call them "friends" and secretly want to bang them, but they didn't go out looking for female friends. No single hetero man does. They either settle for it if they get friend zoned, or they willingly accept it because they're not attracted to her so it's an actual legit friendship between two platonic people. Maybe I'm in the minority because I don't accept anything less than sexual attraction when it comes to women, and because of that, have no females I can call a "friend". A true, platonic, unattractive friend.
Els Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 Not looking specifically for female friends is totally different from 'not befriending anyone of the opposite gender', and especially from 'not talking to any women whom you don't find attractive', both of which you mentioned in your original post. Many men just talk to people regardless of gender or attractiveness, without the goal of hooking up in mind. Do you agree with this?
JuneJulySeptember Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 If you define 'success' as 'sleeping with lots of different women without forming any sort of meaningful connection', then yes, I'd probably agree. Unfortunately there are also some men whose idea of success in the romantic department is different. Nope. I meant in the romantic/healthy/successful relationship sense. Women are no different. They won't date men they aren't physically attracted to. So, what's the point of playing up a charade that you're 'connecting' with her when really she's decided in the first 5 minutes whether or not she will ever sleep with you. The meaningful connection stuff can happen later with a woman who has given you a chance. 1
MrCastle Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 Not looking specifically for female friends is totally different from 'not befriending anyone of the opposite gender', and especially from 'not talking to any women whom you don't find attractive', both of which you mentioned in your original post. Many men just talk to people regardless of gender or attractiveness, without the goal of hooking up in mind. Do you agree with this? Certainly. I mean in life you run into both genders, that's just how it is. Whether through work, school, whatever. Men and women will come in and out of your life on a daily basis. However, ultimately, you decide who you keep around and for what reasons. The way I see it, the beautiful women I come into contact with; I want as lovers. I have a lot of pride, and a big ego, and second place, in any part of life, simply will not do. I either get what I want or I'm done. So, accepting the friendzone as a consolation prize doesn't work for me, because the woman is still beautiful and I'd still be attracted to her, and staying in contact with someone who doesn't feel the same way about me as I do them is a recipe for depression. So I avoid that by dropping them if they deny my advances. So those kind of women are out. Then you have women that for one reason or another, on both our ends, just cant get the dating thing together. Either she has a boyfriend at the moment, or I'm dating someone, whatever, but it's made very clear, when circumstances change, we'll hook up. And I've had that happen several times. Those girls are not friends, but rather potentials. Now, in theory; I could be friends with someone who's not attractive to me and vice versa but that's very rare. Usually one of the parties wants more. I've cut girls out for being too clingy and not taking no as an answer. I wouldn't mind being friends with a woman that shared mutual platonic feelings but it's rare. Rare to the point that I don't have a single one. The girls I talk to are either girls I'm actively dating, or potential future dates.
Author somedude81 Posted December 28, 2012 Author Posted December 28, 2012 Not looking specifically for female friends is totally different from 'not befriending anyone of the opposite gender', and especially from 'not talking to any women whom you don't find attractive', both of which you mentioned in your original post. Many men just talk to people regardless of gender or attractiveness, without the goal of hooking up in mind. Do you agree with this? 1. I wanted to sleep with every female friend I have ever had. 2. Never have I looked to make friends with girls. 3. Befriending people of the opposite gender was either something I just stumbled into or I screwed up my approach and accidentally came on to her as a friend and ended up accepting the friendzone. At least I can say that I haven't been friendzoned in over a year since I started using a more direct approach with girls. Consequently, I haven't spent anytime with a girl as a friend or otherwise in over a year. I'm still trying to decide what is worse, having no women in my life, or being around girls I like that are completely hands off.
JuneJulySeptember Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 Well, I mean, that's what the acquaintances are for. Friends to me means two people who have no chance of hooking up. They either both made that decision, or one person secretly likes the other but the decision was made for them. The acquaintances provide that female interaction you speak of, but there is also the potential for more down the road. Yes. Female friends who are married can also provide this. At least I can say that I haven't been friendzoned in over a year since I started using a more direct approach with girls. Consequently, I haven't spent anytime with a girl as a friend or otherwise in over a year. I'm still trying to decide what is worse, having no women in my life, or being around girls I like that are completely hands off. You're on your way my friend. The latter is worse. 1
MrCastle Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 I'm still trying to decide what is worse, having no women in my life, or being around girls I like that are completely hands off. The latter is worse. When I was transitioning, I had 0 women in my life. No friends, no potentials, nothing. My social circle looked like a domino's meat lovers pizza. All sausage, no fish. It was worth it. I took pride in knowing I was no longer a slave to the friendzone, that any woman I let into my life would be a girl who wanted to hook up with me. It did a lot for my confidence. You get an enormous sense of self respect and pride when you tell a girl who offers you the friendzone "No thanks, I don't really do the friends thing. Thanks anyway though, take care." Once you denounce the friend zone and tell yourself that will never happen to you again, you feel a sense of autonomy, and inner strength. Life is what you make it. If you don't want to be just friends with girls; then don't be. 1
Author somedude81 Posted December 28, 2012 Author Posted December 28, 2012 The latter is worse. When I was transitioning, I had 0 women in my life. No friends, no potentials, nothing. My social circle looked like a domino's meat lovers pizza. All sausage, no fish. It was worth it. I took pride in knowing I was no longer a slave to the friendzone, that any woman I let into my life would be a girl who wanted to hook up with me. It did a lot for my confidence. You get an enormous sense of self respect and pride when you tell a girl who offers you the friendzone "No thanks, I don't really do the friends thing. Thanks anyway though, take care." Once you denounce the friend zone and tell yourself that will never happen to you again, you feel a sense of autonomy, and inner strength. Life is what you make it. If you don't want to be just friends with girls; then don't be. So you've done the no girls in your life thing as well. Interesting. Yeah I do feel that it's worse to be with a girl that I like who is completely unavailable versus not hanging out with any women at all. If I'm gonna starve, I rather it not be in a place where I can actually smell the food. But I really enjoy and miss the female company which is why I'm still torn. I'm happiest when I'm around girls. Aside from looking for girls to date, a major reason why I take a dance class every semester is so I can be around girls. Even though the contact is light and shallow, those two hours a week was when I enjoyed life. Ugh getting too depressed. Time for bed.
betterdeal Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 How long after you get her number are you then texting or calling, and what are you saying when you do? Get the timing and content right and you'll get better responses. Experiment.
JuneJulySeptember Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 So you've done the no girls in your life thing as well. Interesting. Yeah I do feel that it's worse to be with a girl that I like who is completely unavailable versus not hanging out with any women at all. If I'm gonna starve, I rather it not be in a place where I can actually smell the food. But I really enjoy and miss the female company which is why I'm still torn. I'm happiest when I'm around girls. Aside from looking for girls to date, a major reason why I take a dance class every semester is so I can be around girls. Even though the contact is light and shallow, those two hours a week was when I enjoyed life. Ugh getting too depressed. Time for bed. It's like dipping your feet in the pool but not being able to swim. Not only is doing that sort of stuff going to cause you pain, but it's going to waste a lot of time. Going to dinner and going to the movies with a woman who has already placed you in the friendzone the second she saw you. Don't do it.
Nightsky Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 I think it's one of the better ways to reject some one. I mean if it's some one you easily have the option of just ignoring than why not? If you feel the need to call them back or pick up the phone to explain "I don't want to date you" things easily might turn ugly. We're talking "WHY?" than what you have to compliment them "You're a nice guy I'm just not feeling it" "YOU DON'T LIKE ME BECAUSE I'M NICE!" ahhaha or what than they want a real answer "Well I don't like your face or the things you said!" hahaha Really it sucks being ignored by a woman but I don't need a girl to soften the blow and hold my hand through rejection. Explain it to me. I mean if a girl is ignoring me I might try to get her not to ignore me. In the end I'll get tired of being ignored. If you take being ignored so personally of course you're more likely to be some one who takes having why another person doesn't find you attractive personally or at least being told. Also if a girl turns me down outright "I don't want to date you you're not my type" if she's my type I'll keep trying a little till I get tired of trying. So outright telling a guy doesn't neceseralliy work unless they are really jerky about it "NOT IF YOU WERE THE LAST MAN ON EARTH, YOU DISGUST ME!!!' I doubt I'd want to try anymore but thats very confrontational good chance I or any other man would hurl back an insult at that point meant to make her cry.
Necris Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) It never stops being frustrating. Guess it takes balls to say no, which is why many women can't do it. I feel you man, I have the same issue, same thing happened to me recently, I asked out a girl I know, we went to see a movie, everything went smoothly, she told me she had a great time and thanked me for taking her out, and then when I tried to call her a couple of times to see how she is doing she ignored me, then about 9 days later when I gave her a message saying Merry Christmas to her on Christmas day later that night she finally replies with Merry Christmas. That's very annoying to me mainly because its so confusing, I'd prefer women to just tell it to me straight makes things so much easier. I wonder should I flat out ask girls that do this to me about this or not? Edited December 28, 2012 by Necris
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