Why does God need us?

[El Brujo]

If we constantly have to pester God with our prayers, then that implies He's not omniscient.

 

If God can't break the laws of physics or make Paganism disappear from the world, then that implies He's not omnipotent.

 

And if people stopped believing in God, would He lose His divinity? (Maybe people thousands of years ago thought that would happen if they stopped offering sacrifices to Him.)

 

What about people who don't do sinful things but who also don't believe in God? And what about when they do things to help others?

[KathyM]

God doesn't need us, we need Him.

[M30USA]

Classic verse about this:

 

"When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor." (Psalms 8:3-5 ESV)

 

After years of studying the Bible, I'm convinced that God made mankind as a testimony--so to speak--to the angels. We were not his initial or primary creation. But after 1/3 of the angels rebelled with Satan, he created us to show that something which is made out of dirt (mankind) can be be transformed by the power of God into something which was initially made glorious (angels) but chose not to depend on him.

 

For those who disagree with this and believe that God has "nothing to prove", that sounds great, but there are too many examples where Satan goes up to God and basically says, paraphrased, "If you let me do such and such, I will show you how wrong you are!" And for reasons that will always mystify humans, God agrees.

Edited December 15, 2012 by M30USA

[OpenBook]

If we constantly have to pester God with our prayers, then that implies He's not omniscient.

 

If God can't break the laws of physics or make Paganism disappear from the world, then that implies He's not omnipotent.

 

Huh? Not following your logic here. Just because God DOESN'T do something doesn't mean He CAN'T do it. And He has made abundantly clear that we're not "pestering" Him when we pray to Him.

[Feelin Frisky]

Your first question gets at why there is no god. Think of it this way, people believe that when they die they will be reunited with loved ones. But when we are alive we age. So, when we die is there a god who uses a technology to make us all look recognizable to each other? Say your cousin dies and in heaven he is hanging out with people he knew that died that you didn't know. How does all this work so that he's living HIS heaven with his expectations and you are living heaven with YOUR expectations? It all starts to fall apart as to why there would be a god who would "servicing" so many billions upon billions of people. And what if the cosmos has billions of planets with other people with the same type souls and expectations? Wouldn't god just be the ultimate "medicater"--creating separate visions to satisfy selfish expectations of billions of human beings? What's the point? And if you knew you were being "faked out" with some kind of artificial reality where you are being "medicated" with what you expect to see but it is not real and everyone else is being "medicated" with a fake vision of what their expectations are, would this not become a gilded cage?

 

I think it would and would see it as nothing more than being able to "watch television" for eternity. That's why IMO we need to be grateful for the only real like we can be sure of and expect it to be over when it's over. Belief in an after-life (and thus a god/Allah) enables a multitude of evils.

[M30USA]

If we constantly have to pester God with our prayers, then that implies He's not omniscient.

 

If God can't break the laws of physics or make Paganism disappear from the world, then that implies He's not omnipotent.

 

And if people stopped believing in God, would He lose His divinity? (Maybe people thousands of years ago thought that would happen if they stopped offering sacrifices to Him.)

 

What about people who don't do sinful things but who also don't believe in God? And what about when they do things to help others?

 

Your questions are pretty elementary.

 

If you really want to ask the heavy questions, ask why God has given (yes given) the nations of the earth to Satan, and why it will stay this way until Christ returns. The question is not whether God is all-powerful or not; the question is why does he choose to give "paganism" a nearly free reign at the current time.

[TheFinalWord]

Can God make a rock so heavy that he can't pick it up?

 

Lulz, I disproved God is omnipotent.

Edited December 15, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[M30USA]

Can God make a rock so heavy that he can't pick it up?

 

Lulz, I disproved God is omnipotent.

 

Dang, TFW, why'd you have to throw my entire life belief system down the drain? What am I gonna do now?

[BetheButterfly]

God doesn't need us. I personally see God as the Artist who created life on earth. Just like an artist does not need any of the artwork he/she made, I think God's art form of life is not something he needs but rather something he creates that brings him pleasure, especially if his artwork obeys him.

 

I see it like scientists/programmers create a robot/computer program. If the robot/computer program does what it's designed to do, they're happy. If not, they don't tend to have a problem with destroying it.

 

If we constantly have to pester God with our prayers, then that implies He's not omniscient.

Prayer requires faith. From what I have experienced, God wants people to have faith in him. God doesn't need prayer at all. I personally think he only thinks prayers are "pestering" him when we are not obeying him yet want something from him.

If God can't break the laws of physics or make Paganism disappear from the world, then that implies He's not omnipotent.

I don't think God wants Paganism to disappear at the moment... Jesus said the following, which I think is so true:

 

Matthew 5 (I boldened some.)

Mat 5 NIV - Introduction to the Sermon on the Mount - Bible Gateway

 

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

 

If there were no pagans and everyone believed the same, how in the world could we practice at being "perfect" and love and greet those who believe/think differently than we do???

 

And if people stopped believing in God, would He lose His divinity? (Maybe people thousands of years ago thought that would happen if they stopped offering sacrifices to Him.)

No. God doesn't depend on people, anymore than the planet earth would lose its gravity if there were no people on earth.

 

What about people who don't do sinful things but who also don't believe in God? And what about when they do things to help others?

I don't know, but I believe God is loving, even though He sees people differently than we see ourselves. Edited December 15, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[M30USA]

Classic verse about this:

 

"When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is man that you are mindful of him, and the son of man that you care for him? Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor." (Psalms 8:3-5 ESV)

 

After years of studying the Bible, I'm convinced that God made mankind as a testimony--so to speak--to the angels. We were not his initial or primary creation. But after 1/3 of the angels rebelled with Satan, he created us to show that something which is made out of dirt (mankind) can be be transformed by the power of God into something which was initially made glorious (angels) but chose not to depend on him.

 

For those who disagree with this and believe that God has "nothing to prove", that sounds great, but there are too many examples where Satan goes up to God and basically says, paraphrased, "If you let me do such and such, I will show you how wrong you are!" And for reasons that will always mystify humans, God agrees.

 

I'm quoting myself here, lol.

 

I want to prove my point by showing that, after Jesus was cruxified, he apparently proclaimed his victory TO THE ANGELS (according to Timothy 3:16 and in comparison with several other verses). There wasn't even such a proclamation to humans! He didn't come back to earth and say, "I am the winner!" But why did he do that very thing TO THE ANGELS? You almost get the impression that the angels are the audience and earth is the big stage. I'm telling you, the Bible repeatedly supports this idea.

[M30USA]

And we all know just how reliable the Bible is....

 

Go to the other thread about proving/disproving religion. That's not the subject here. Sorry.

 

And, while you bring up the reliability, yes, I'd say a book is pretty reliable if it can predict the reestablishment of the nation Isreal 1900 years before it happened. Or the birth of Jesus Christ 600 years before it happened. You have a book with a better track record?

 

Your comments are not only off-subject, but similar to a child carping an adult.

Edited December 15, 2012 by M30USA

[TheFinalWord]

Dang, TFW, why'd you have to throw my entire life belief system down the drain? What am I gonna do now?

 

haha I know faith-shattering. Imagine, 2k years of Christian scholarship dismantled with a few sentences

 

OP could get all answers to these questions by reading a bit of Lewis

 

In spirit of release of Hobbit

 

[M30USA]

Yet none of it can be verified outside of the Bible. Oh, so reliable. Yes, they are off-topic. Oops. :lmao:

 

Where do you get your information? And why are you laughing?

 

We know when the book of Isaiah and other prophets were written (in which the prophecies of Israel's reestablishment are contained): 700-600 BC.

 

We also know when Israel was reestablished: 1948 AD.

 

Where is the confusion? There is your verification "outside of the Bible". Please stop buying catch-phrases and catch-ideas of society without examining them.

Edited December 15, 2012 by M30USA

[M30USA]

haha I know faith-shattering. Imagine, 2k years of Christian scholarship dismantled with a few sentences

 

OP could get all answers to these questions by reading a bit of Lewis

 

In spirit of release of Hobbit

 

 

Sorry, TFW, YouTube links are not accepted as evidence.

[TheFinalWord]

Sorry, TFW, YouTube links are not accepted as evidence.

 

haha yeah, but it's obvious that no one is going to read books...especially the bible unless it's filtered through Dawkins, Hitchens, or Harris...

 

Or unless it's Numbers 31, obtained via Google.com "atheist biblical genocide"

 

That's why I just lulz when I see these threads, b/c it only exposes the poster's lack of determination to search for truth. The opposite of what the bible commands is necessary to find the truth. Matthew 7:7; Jeremiah 29:13; Proverbs 8:17

[Illusionist]

If the soul belongs to god or is a part of god, then it surely would make sense that it will return to him again one day.

[TheFinalWord]

I find it amusing that a lot of people who are atheists were once fundamental Christians. Go figure. Do you suppose they had not read the Bible, and realized in their quest for truth that it wasn't in there?

 

Funnily enough, the genocide mentioned in Numbers 31 is not the only example of god ordering or committing genocide. Noah's Ark, anyone? What about the forced marriage of a rapist to his victim? He prescribed murder for apostasy, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath... you know, people blame atheists for cherry-picking the Bible, but I do believe that theists do it just as much.

 

And before you claim that the OT is overruled by the NT, read Matthew 5: 17.

 

If you take the Bible as truth, how can you claim god is moral? How can you even claim god loves us all? He clearly only loves those who kiss his butt.

 

HS, I'm not going to argue with you. You don't need any more arguments. Heck, you can even give my refutations before I even type anything?

 

A few months ago you said you didn't know how to read the bible and it was confusing. You wanted to do a bible study on this forum.

 

If you want to honestly assess the bible, let me give you a challenge. Please do not read any atheist literature/web sites/YouTube for 4 weeks. Then, read the bible cover to cover, one time through. Let it saturate for one week. Then re-read it again. If you want to really be bold, pray for God to open the eyes of your understanding. Do those things, and I think you will see it in a different light.

[BetheButterfly]

HS, I'm not going to argue with you. You don't need any more arguments. Heck, you can even give my refutations before I even type anything?

 

A few months ago you said you didn't know how to read the bible and it was confusing. You wanted to do a bible study on this forum.

 

If you want to honestly assess the bible, let me give you a challenge. Please do not read any atheist literature/web sites/YouTube for 4 weeks. Then, read the bible cover to cover, one time through. Let it saturate for one week. Then re-read it again. If you want to really be bold, pray for God to open the eyes of your understanding. Do those things, and I think you will see it in a different light.

 

I read Atheist literature, but it doesn't affect my belief in God and my love for Him.

 

It does upset me when people insult God or my belief, but I understand why they don't believe. You don't know how many times I wish God would show himself to everybody.

 

I do agree that while reading the Bible, it's important to pray and ask God for wisdom (as well as when reading anything).

 

When I don't pray and ask God for help, I find myself becoming very negative but with God's Spirit, I find myself being filled with love. It's really cool!!! :bunny:

 

Back to the OP, even though I don't believe God needs us, I 100% believe that I personally need him.

 

I adore this song "Made to Love" by Toby Mac. That's how I feel about me: that I was made to love and to be loved - by God, and by those who love me, including my husband, parents, sisters, relatives, friends, and strangers who I am united with in humanity, as well as animals who are precious to me:love:

 

[BetheButterfly]

To be honest, I prayed for god to open my eyes to him. Didn't work. Reading the Bible won't make me believe. And I wouldn't want to worship such a god even if he were real.

 

I've read many of the arguments for a god, and at one point, convinced myself to believe. Since discovering how fallacious and false those arguments are, and evidence that goes against the bible, there is no reason to believe. For thousands of years, theists have had the opportunity to prove their claims, they haven't.

 

I think that most Theists who sincerely believe do so because of personal experience.

 

For thousands of years, many Theists have personally experienced God. Now, there are people who are Theists simply due to tradition or family ties and base their beliefs on what others say rather than on what they personally experience. My aunt was one like that... she based her belief in God on what her parents taught her (my Dad's Dad was a pastor) but it wasn't until she personally experienced God for herself that she truly believed.

 

Again, I wish all people personally experienced God, but obviously that doesn't happen. I wish all people experienced true love too.

 

People who do not believe in God have reasons for why they don't believe, same as people who do believe in God have reasons for why they believe.

 

Instead of concentrating on fighting each other, why don't we just agree to disagree? It does not harm me that you don't believe in God, and it does not harm you that I believe in God. What harms people is when they are violent to each other or say mean things to each other.

 

I have no desire to be violent to you or say mean things to you, and I don't think you have that desire towards me. So, we can get along even though we don't have the same experience concerning God.

[TheFinalWord]

To be honest, I prayed for god to open my eyes to him. Didn't work. Reading the Bible won't make me believe. And I wouldn't want to worship such a god even if he were real.

 

I've read many of the arguments for a god, and at one point, convinced myself to believe. Since discovering how fallacious and false those arguments are, and evidence that goes against the bible, there is no reason to believe. For thousands of years, theists have had the opportunity to prove their claims, they haven't.

 

I don't think reading the bible will make you believe. I used to use it for joint paper when I was an atheist. Now I cry when I read certain passages.

 

But I do think my challenge would give you a better understanding of it. Then we could have a high quality discussion in a thread that is a bit more serious.

 

PS: Yes, I was being a bit sarcastic in my above posts, b/c I honestly do not think OP is asking a serious question. He is being silly, so I am being equally silly. Christians can have a sense of humor, ya know.

[El Brujo]

Dang, TFW, why'd you have to throw my entire life belief system down the drain? What am I gonna do now?

 

Cry. (Hey, it always works for me...)

 

I found an interesting debate about this topic over here-it discusses why god can't be omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

 

Debate Issue: If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then God cannot be omnibenevolent at the same time. | Debate.org

 

God needs us because it is not the case of god creating man, more like, man creating god. You need look no further than your average Christian who imposes characteristics onto god like they know him personally-funnily enough, they are very human characteristics, and probably what appeases the person most.

 

Dammit, you're making me look like an amateur!

[M30USA]

To be honest, I prayed for god to open my eyes to him. Didn't work. Reading the Bible won't make me believe. And I wouldn't want to worship such a god even if he were real.

 

I've read many of the arguments for a god, and at one point, convinced myself to believe. Since discovering how fallacious and false those arguments are, and evidence that goes against the bible, there is no reason to believe. For thousands of years, theists have had the opportunity to prove their claims, they haven't.

 

God will answer if you prayed sincerely.

 

"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;

It shall not return to Me void,

But it shall accomplish what I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

-Isaiah 55:11

Edited December 15, 2012 by M30USA

[M30USA]

I found an interesting debate about this topic over here-it discusses why god can't be omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

 

Debate Issue: If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then God cannot be omnibenevolent at the same time. | Debate.org

 

God needs us because it is not the case of god creating man, more like, man creating god. You need look no further than your average Christian who imposes characteristics onto god like they know him personally-funnily enough, they are very human characteristics, and probably what appeases the person most.

 

HS,

 

Christians walk around all day long with unbiblical ideas of who God is. Jesus has been remade and styled into fitting our current culture. But I repeatedly direct you to what Scripture says about him--not people's opinions. Based on Scripture, Jesus is NOT AT ALL like anything man would devise. Why would people devise a God-man who pretty much condemns ALL people together as sinners? Why would people write a story where a God-man is born in a city which is equivalent to a slum and have him sleep in a filthy animal stable? Most significantly, why would people devise a God-man who suffered a humiliating death and made people embarrassed to associate with him? Even his own disciples were embarrased by him! It doesn't add up.

Edited December 15, 2012 by M30USA

[M30USA]

I DID pray sincerely. He didn't answer. I wonder how many people pray with sincerity, and absolute faith that he will answer, but he doesn't.

 

What's your reasoning then? He just wants to discriminate?

 

Sometimes God lets people wander in the wilderness. I don't know why. But he does. Even Jesus and the nation Israel went through the wilderness. Ultimately God has a purpose for you.

[TheFinalWord]

Actually, I just checked the rules and it says you can't.

 

I'm sure that's in the footnotes of Leviticus somewhere?

 

Googling..."CHristians not have fun or laugh"...results

 

www.godisnotcool.com: Fundies pretend they have joy, but it shows in Leviticus they can't have fun b/c God said not to eat rabbit and everyone knows that Elmer Fudd likes to eat rabbit and he's the funniest cartoon character ever created, so their life is a massive contradiction...

 

Okay, that was dumb.