I know I'm pathetic

[Jefezen]

I'm heartbroken over the loss of a woman I never even had. We were never in an official relationship. In fact, I've never been in a real romantic relationship.

 

I'm 30 years old, I'm timid, and until the last few months, I lacked the confidence to ever approach women. I had gone bald prematurely at the age of 20, and I figured no one would be attracted to me in that state, so I didn't even bother trying to date, or to socialize with women. I'd always wear a hat and keep to myself. Even on the male side, I didn't have many friends, although I did have a couple of them.

 

Instead of maintaining any semblance of a social life, I focused on my studies. I became a lawyer, and once I made enough money, I corrected my hair issues, and now look reasonably attractive, or so I'm told. This improved my confidence to a point where I could get out there and mingle with women, finally talking to them for the first time since high school.

 

While I had often felt lonely without a woman in my life, there had only been two instances where I really felt deeply attracted, possibly in love, with someone. They happened 16 years apart, once when I was 14, and again more recently at 30. When a relationship with the girl I thought I had fallen in love with at 14 didn't work out, I felt devastated. I was sure I would never get over her. But I did. It took a long time, though: literally 6 years. I'm not sure why it was so difficult. We never dated, we never went out, we hardly interacted, although when we did, I thought we connected.

 

Fast forward to last August. I walked into a computer retail store looking to purchase a computer case for my new laptop. At the checkout counter stood one of the most exotically beautiful women I had ever seen in my life (with a gorgeous head of massive, thick, curly blonde locks cascading halfway down her back). I immediately told myself I had to try and get to know this person. We engaged in some small talk and she seemed receptive. She told me in her lovely Middle Eastern accent that she used to work in customer support in her home country for the type of computer I had purchased. I asked her if I could have her contact information "in case I have any questions." She sheepishly replied, "I don't usually give my info out to customers, I could get in a lot of trouble, but you seem nice, here you go," and she wrote it out on the back of my receipt and playfully shooed me out the door.

 

As I looked at the name, I saw it was Muslim, and decided that maybe I shouldn't contact her because I'm Jewish, and the likelihood of such a pairing working out would be slim. I weighed in my mind whether to reach out to her or not, but she ended up making the decision for me. Three days later, much to my surprise, she found me on Facebook. She sent a message saying, "I was nervous and wasn't sure if you could read my handwriting. Let me know if you have any questions." At that moment, I couldn't have been happier. Here was this beautiful woman, reaching out to me, conveying what seemed like genuine interest. She must have looked up my receipt number in her company database to find my name.

 

The next few nights, we chatted through Facebook for literally hours. She'd send me a message at around 10pm, and we'd talk until 2am. I asked her out to dinner, and that went well too. There were no awkward pauses in our conversation. We couldn't seem to get enough of each other. After the dinner, we walked and talked for another hour. She also trusted me enough to let me give her a ride home. When we got to her house, she stayed in the car with me talking excitedly for even longer. I had never been so happy in my life. I was thinking to myself, "Wow, after all these years, is this finally happening to me?!" Two days later, she asked me out to a bar. We ordered a couple of virgin drinks (as a supposedly conservative Muslim she doesn't drink alcohol) but it was too loud in there so we left early, strolled around the city and chatted until midnight.

 

She told me how much she loved my company, how much she enjoyed talking to me, how funny I was despite maintaining a Poker face most of the time. She'd smile me at me all the time, hold my arm, shower attention on me, make me feel special. No one had ever done that with me before and it felt really good.

 

I did not hide from her the fact that I was Jewish, and she told me this made no difference to her, as she could be with a man of any religion if she loved him. She spent the next several minutes reassuring me that she had no issues with Jews or Judaism, and that her family had many Jewish friends. Then she revealed something about her past (and present) that took me by surprise: she's married, but in the process of getting a divorce. She told me she had a restraining order against her husband and that it was coming up for renewal soon. She told me about how he physically abused her, and how her own family supported him because of the shame that accompanies divorce in her home country. She cried as she told me these stories. She said she didn't want to wait too much longer to tell me about this because otherwise I might feel "misled down the line."

 

Not wanting to take advantage of someone in that emotional state, and respecting the fact that she claimed to be a conservative Muslim, still technically married, I decided I would not make any intimate advances until she was officially single. I would just be the compassionate, supportive friend who flirts from time to time to convey my interest.

 

When her day in court for renewal of the restraining order arrived, she asked me if I could accompany her to provide moral support in case her husband showed up. I arranged to take the day off so that I could be there with her. Being an attorney myself, I drafted some remarks for her to say to the judge, hoping he would grant a permanent restraining order. This was successful: permanent restraining order granted. She seemed happy and relieved. She hugged me. We spent the rest of that day celebrating with one of her friends. I caught her staring at me a few times, and when our eyes met, she'd flash a broad smile. I thought I was in love.

 

For the next few weeks, we continued to talk almost daily and see each other 2-3 times a week. I'd drive her home from an outing or from her work, she'd check up on me to make sure I got back to my place okay. She'd text me in the morning to say hello. She'd text me in the evening to ask about my day. Sometimes I'd drop by her work and awkwardly dance around in line, letting some people go ahead of me, to ensure that I got her as my cashier. She'd laugh and thank me for the visit. We'd go out to dinner, we'd go for long walks together along the beach, we even went on a day trip out of state. She invited me to the house she shares with some roommates and introduced me to her friends.

 

The weeks after that did not go quite as well. She still texted me, but now instead of it being several times a day, it was twice a week, if that, and very brief. She no longer made arrangements to see me, but if I asked to see her, she'd generally accept with an emphatic, "I'd love to!" I tried to arrange a few more day trips with her, but she kept claiming to be too tired or busy. On one such occasion, Halloween, I caught her in a lie. She said she was too tired to go out, even though she knew I had made plans to take her somewhere on Halloween weeks earlier, for which she had expressed interest. Then on Facebook I saw pictures of her posing with other people at a costume party that same night she had told me she was too tired to go out with me. When I gently confronted her about this, she said she was confused about the date, and had promised her friend (a female) that she'd go out with her. She seemed angry that I even questioned her at all.

 

The level of contact continued to slow down. Whereas she had almost always initiated all conversations with me in the past, now I had to text her, or else I'd never hear anything, except maybe for a single good morning text once a week. When I'd post a link on her Facebook page, or send her a private message, she'd usually completely ignore it. In the past, she'd answer me within minutes and talk for hours. Now, if she answered at all, she'd be brief, claim she had to go somewhere, but would talk to me later if I was still online. I'd wait around online for her to return, only for her to forget about me and not return.

 

I could tell something was off. I asked her if everything was okay. She told me that nothing was wrong, she'd just been busier than usual, and that sometimes she can go two months without talking to a friend. She started listing me examples of various such friends, most of them male. I thought to myself, "Two months?! We used to talk all the time and now you're telling me that once every two months would be sufficient for you?" But again, I kept that thought to myself.

 

In the same conversation, she told me that she's the type of person who believes in open and honest communication. She said she would never want to hurt me, and that if I wanted to talk about anything, to go ahead and discuss it because she doesn't believe in holding secrets. I pointed out that we weren't talking as much as we had before. I asked if I had been doing anything to make her uncomfortable, and perhaps that's why she seemed to be drifting away. She replied, "Erase all those negative thoughts! There is nothing wrong. Believe me, if I'm upset about something, you'll know."

 

A few more weeks went by with only proverbial breadcrumbs of attention. A "good morning" text here, a "how are you" text there, often several days apart. I started to realize how dependent I had become on her for attention. I missed what we had those first couple months. The more she pulled away, the more I felt I needed her. The few times we were together, she seemed less enthusiastic about my company, and I noticed she'd receive lots of text messages. Not wanting to appear insecure, I never asked who they were from, nor did I comment on it.

 

I confronted her a second time about her sudden distance. She again told me that nothing was wrong, that nothing had changed. She said it was my imagination. I told her I read about a new restaurant offering her native cuisine. I asked if she'd like to accompany me there. She said she'd like to and that "we'll be in touch" to make the arrangements.

 

Four days later, she texted me "good morning." I said good morning back, and asked her if she'd like to go to the aforementioned restaurant I found. She replied, "I'd love to, but there's a new guy in my life and he wouldn't like that, sorry!"

 

I felt like dying. Who was this new guy? Where did he come from? How long had she been seeing him? This certainly explains the withdrawal from me, I thought. Was the new guy Muslim, and that's why she would no longer go out with me? At least if he's Muslim, I could understand being rejected because there would be religious reasons for her wanting someone of her own kind, I rationalized. That's one area where I can't compete, so at least it wouldn't have been my own failure. But what if it was one of the many random losers who flirt with her on her weekend job? (She's a waitress at a predominantly working class Latin dance club on most Friday and Saturday nights). Had I ever meant anything at all to her? How could she be doing this to me? Was it my own fault for not putting on the moves sooner, and for taking her seriously when she claimed to be a conservative Muslim? Should I have ignored the fact that she was still technically married, something I had done only in sensitivity and deference to what I thought would be her own cultural preferences? Had she not led me on? It sure seemed like she was interested in me, at least early in our non-relationship. Had I been imagining what seemed like a true connection between us? She was often the one initiating contact and requesting romantic environments!

 

I desperately wanted to know the answers to these questions. I politely responded via text message, "If I may ask, how long have you known him? Is he Muslim?" That was it. She didn't answer. An hour later, in panic and anguish, I texted her a second time, saying something like, "I knew something was different with you, I guess this explains it." She responded, "I never made any promises. We went out as friends." Crestfallen, I replied something along the lines of, "I know that, but usually someone doesn't go through as much effort as you did (looking me up in your computer database) to establish contact with someone, and then ask that person out, if all you want is friendship. You already had lots of friends. I thought we connected early on and I had hopes for maybe more, but you told me you were married, and I thought I'd be respectful to your situation and culture by waiting." She said she had to work and that we could talk later.

 

I know her work schedule, so I waited until I know she'd be free again before texting her. "Can you please answer my earlier questions?" I asked. She replied, "Which questions?" I repeated that I'd like for her to tell me how long she'd known this new guy in her life and whether he was Muslim. She angrily answered, "Why does it matter? You are my friend...if you still want to be." I texted back that of course I still wanted to be her friend but that she had always told me she believed in honest and open communication, that she promised we could talk about anything, that she doesn't believe in keeping secrets, and that given how nice I had been to her, never asking for anything in return, I would appreciate a couple answers. She didn't reply.

 

That night I called her. No answer. The next morning I called her. No answer. I texted another three times over the next couple days, asking if she was okay, and why she seemed so angry at me. No answer. I called another time. No answer. (I did not leave any messages).

 

Feeling desperate, and in retrospect I now regret this tremendously, I decided I would show up at her work and try to figure out what was going on and why she gave me the silent treatment. When it was my turn to pay for my items, she treated me with disdain and cold indifference, like I was a total stranger. I asked her why she was ignoring my texts and phone calls. She said, "I find it illogical that you want to know so badly why he is Muslim and for how long I've known him. Why does that matter? Why is that any of your business?" I asked her if we could talk when she got off her shift in fifteen minutes. She said she didn't want to and had other arrangements. I pressed her a second time to talk, even for just one minute after work. She said I was holding up the line, so I left.

 

Stupidly, and again I regret this in retrospect, I decided to wait outside her work to talk to her anyway. I didn't like how angry she seemed to be over a rather innocent question on my part, for which I had prefaced the remark with, "If I may ask." In my head, I felt there was nothing wrong with trying to talk to somebody who often claimed I could talk to her about anything. If she really didn't want to tell me something, I'd respect that, and I wanted her to know it. I couldn't stand how she seemed to suddenly despise me so much over seemingly nothing. While I probably texted and called her a little too much over a span of a couple days, it wasn't too over the top, and I remained polite in tone throughout. There were literally eight text messages and four phone calls over two days. I didn't think that qualified as harassment, but apparently to her, it was unforgivable.

 

When she walked out of work, I called out her name and asked her for a minute of her time. "I think this is all a misunderstanding," I said, "That's why we need to talk." I quickly reminded her of all the good things I had done on her behalf, of all the good times we had shared, and that the least she could do for me is give a little time to explain myself and work through the present situation. She grew livid. "I am so mad at you right now," she said. "A good friend never does what you did." She raised her voice, shouting, even though I remained outwardly calm. "We went out as friends," she reiterated. "How dare you ask about my feelings, my boy and challenge me on why it's him and not you! I don't want any trouble. Someone is picking me up. Now leave me alone." I acquiesced and walked away dumbfounded.

 

That night she sent me a message on Facebook thanking me for everything I had done for her but asking me to never call or text her again because no good friend "sends a million calls and texts, bothers her at work, and then waits for her afterwards. That is not normal. I will never like that." There really weren't that many calls and messages, and I've heard much worse stories from others in that department, but that's what she said. "You are my friend but I am so mad at you. Leave me alone. And thank you!" She then deleted me from Facebook.

 

That's the last I heard from her, back in mid-November. I haven't texted or called her once since her request that I not contact her by those methods. I sent her one Facebook message, a lengthy apology where I sought to explain my motives, about two weeks after she asked me to leave her alone. She ignored it without a reply, even though I specifically asked for one. A few days after that, I sent her a second Facebook message saying, "You said I am still your friend. Friends talk to each other. They communicate. They work out their problems. Can we fix this? Please answer." She ignored that too. I sent that message on November 29th. We've had no contact of any kind since that time.

 

I don't know how to proceed. I miss her a lot. I don't have many friends, and the few that I do have are all male. I loved having a girl in my life, and not just any girl, a beautiful, charismatic, exotic one who people complimented whenever we were together. Guys would say, "Take good care of this one!" to me. We never did anything beyond a hug or arm-holding, yet it was still more than anything else I ever had, and I loved it.

 

I'm not a virgin, I've had sex with the occasional random older woman, but I never felt as close to any of them as I did to this one, despite doing so much less with her. I wish I could rewind and handle that revelation about a "a new guy" in her life better. I wish I had just said, "Congratulations," and waited to see her in person before asking any questions, or not asking anything at all. But I'm also very angry at her. While I should not have waited for her outside her work, I still think she's overreacting. Eight texts and four phone calls without messages in a two day span is not harassment, and I don't see anything wrong in asking a supposed friend how she met someone, or whether he's the same religion, especially after having been lectured so many times about her alleged honesty and openness to conversation. I'm also vexed that she never gave me an opportunity to discuss any of this with her. I was so exceedingly kind, and for her to not do me this one favor really stings. It also appears she won't give me a second chance at a friendship she claims was never extinguished. I think she wants me out of her life completely and would prefer that I make no further attempts at contact. Although the "leave me alone" was specifically in reference to phone calls and text messages, I doubt she'd want me showing up at her work again, or contacting her through Facebook (which I've done a couple times, and as I already said, she ignored).

 

In all honesty, and I'm not just saying this in defeat, there were moments even when things were going well that I had misgivings and second thoughts about our compatibility. For one, she has a lot of emotional baggage with both her husband (maybe ex at this point, I don't know), family, and assorted friends. For two, we're very different in some ways. She exhibits zero intellectual curiosity about anything, doesn't read, doesn't follow the news, doesn't like to discuss world affairs, doesn't show much interest in art. She openly told me as much, practically boasting about her ignorance. Also, beneath the sophisticated veneer, she's more of the dance club/rap culture/party animal type, while I'm a lot more reserved and traditional. One day I picked her up and she had changed her hairstyle into cornrows that looked terrible on her. What we did share in common were an attraction to ethnic foods and day trips to interesting places. We also liked to hear about each other's cultural backgrounds. Even in terms of physical attractiveness, there were some days where I asked myself, "Is she really that beautiful?" and certain pictures on her Facebook page where she didn't look as great as I initially thought.

 

Despite all these doubts, despite the exceedingly high likelihood that she'll never talk to me again, I'm having tremendous difficulty moving on and getting over her. I can't forget those first two months when she seemed to genuinely like me as more than a friend. I can't forget all the time we spent together, seemingly content. I want to return to it. I miss her so much. It's not even about having her as a potential girlfriend anymore. I just want her back in my life. I want to talk to her. I want to be with her. I want her attention.

 

While loneliness may be a big part of my desperation to find a way back into her good graces, I don't think it's the sole explanation for it. After all, I somehow mustered the courage to ask for her contact information on the spot that first day I met her. I had never done anything like that before in my life. I always let the woman come to me, or I build up a rapport over a long period of time. This represented a true first for me because I was so instantly captivated I felt compelled to do something at that very moment.

 

Also, I have been building a more active social life since turning 30. I go out almost every night. I meet lots of new people. I even went on a pair of dates with another woman who showed some interest in me. Yet it just wasn't the same. I wasn't as attracted to these other women. I didn't feel as close to them. I felt like I was going through the motions. While with them, I'd be thinking about the one I've lost (if I ever had her in the first place). Hardly anything distracts me from thinking about her. I went on a trip to Hawaii and that didn't even help because I just felt so alone, and wanted her to be there with me.

 

I don't know what to do. I've been no contact since November 29th but these last couple of days have been really rough. It's especially hard because she works near a lot of places I like to hang out, and now whenever I'm in that area, I have flashbacks to our long strolls together there, and I get tempted to show up at her work, even if only to catch a glimpse of her from outside the door.

 

Part of me wonders if her reticence to have any further contact with me relates to the negative experience she had with her husband as the victim of physical abuse. But I am not her husband. I would never strike a woman. I never even raised my voice at her. I wish there was something I could do to get her to talk to me, to calm her down, but even if I could, I wonder if there would really be anything to gain from it. Would it ever go back to the way it was? Would the most I could hope for be an awkward acquaintanceship where I'm the one begging for drops of attention?

 

I feel so pathetic for even caring so much about someone I never really had a true relationship with in the first place, while so many of you are grieving over real, actual losses. But I can't help how I feel. For me, this was the closest I ever came to a relationship and I threw it all away in a moment of pain and panic.

[LaMiserable]

You truly did nothing wrong. You seem like a really great guy, don't ever change. Men like you give women like me hope! She didnt deserve you. She's immature, dishonest and sounds a tad unstable... I think you fell in love with the idea or fantasy of being with her-that's why you feel so badly now. Be good to yourself and dont despair. You will meet her and when you do, you'll know

[Jefezen]

She probably wanted that passion, but you never gave it to her... you say she is very beautiful and likes to party. you are probably not the first, or the last, person to ask her out. some guy probably came along and asked her out, or she met him at a club, and he gives her the passion you could not. I'm not saying this stuff to be mean, but I am saying it as an unbiased reader of your very lengthy thread, and telling you my honest opinion of your situation.

 

In retrospect, I regret not showing her any passion too. I think she really was legitimately interested in me those first couple months. She contacted me 90% of the time. We'd have marathon conversations. She asked me out. She'd request that we walk along the beach at night. She'd sit with me in my car for up to an hour even after we got to her house.

 

In my defense, had she not claimed to be a conservative Muslim, and had she not been married, I would have definitely tried to kiss her. It was on our third date that she revealed this to me, and I thought the sensitive thing to do in that circumstance was to be patient and wait for her to be officially single. I didn't think a supposedly conservative married Muslim would be willing to get intimately involved with a man other than her husband. I honestly thought I was doing right by her. She had also told me that a lot of guys are attracted to her exotic background and she hates how they just want to use her. That was another reason I decided to go slow. I didn't want her to mistake me for one of them.

 

I still complimented her a lot. I flirted with her. I would do sweet and cute things to make her smile and demonstrate that I liked her. I concocted this entire plot in my head where by New Years (around the time that I think her divorce would be official) I would ask her out and kiss her. I never got that opportunity. She withdrew from me for a few weeks, this other guy came along, and then I acted impulsively and frightened her away, probably forever.

 

I hate myself for not just doing what I wanted earlier, and trying to kiss her when I had the chance. I was a gentleman early on when I should have been a bad boy and I was a bad boy later on when I should have been a gentleman.

 

she would have felt what you are feeling now. No one likes being ignored. However, you let your emotions get the best of you and you called, texted, messaged multiple times, and went to her work, and waited out side! you said you are a lawyer, right? Doesn't that sound like the begiings of stalking to you?

 

I know you're right. It does sound stalkerish. But I really did remain polite in my text messages. I did not leave any messages on the phone calls. It wasn't a "million texts and calls" like she claimed. I called four times in a span of two days. I texted eight times in a span of two days. I prefaced my questions with, "If I may ask."

 

She could have said, "No, you can't, I don't want to talk about it," and I would have dropped my line of questioning. She could have picked up the phone just once and said the same. I only kept texting and calling because she kept ignoring me, even after claiming we could talk about anything, repeating that she didn't believe in secrets, and that she was a proponent of open and honest communication. If that's all true, why was she avoiding me? Why had she been lying to me during the prior weeks of withdrawal that nothing was wrong and that nothing had changed? Why had she outright lied to me about being busy or tired, only to go out with other people the same day? Why did she always seem so secretive about her whereabouts?

 

I took her at her word that we could talk about anything and got burned for it.

 

Nevertheless, I should have controlled myself better. I never should have waited outside her work. While I did not threaten her by any means, neither physically nor verbally, just that mere action in and of itself can be frightening, especially to a victim of spousal abuse. I didn't think about how she would interpret my actions, I only thought about what I needed at that moment. I wanted to just fix things right then and there, rather than let her continue to remain angry at me over what I thought were rather innocuous questions.

 

If she had truly liked me at the start, why was she so willing to abandon me before I even had the chance to make things worse for myself by calling and texting a bunch of times, and confronting her at work? Wouldn't she have at least talked things through with me calmly like I had asked? This escalated in large part because she resisted any and all efforts to discuss any of this with me in a mature manner, or any manner at all. The one thing I didn't want was to be ignored and she ignored me, then effectively denied that there had ever been anything more than friendship. "We went out as friends," she said. It sure seemed like more than that for a little while. Could it really have been my imagination? Was I seeing what I wanted to see? Maybe she's like that with everyone?

 

Even though she still maintained that I am her friend when she asked me to leave her alone, I think it's rather obvious from her conduct (ignoring the two subsequent Facebook messages) that she didn't really mean that either. She probably just said it because she worried that a complete and total rejection might send me over the edge and lead to my harming her.

 

I'm trying to get over her, I really am. I'm meeting other women. I'm forcing myself to get out of the house and socialize. But I can't get this woman out of my mind. It takes tremendous willpower to stop myself from showing up at her work again (not waiting for her outside, I definitely won't do that again, but going to her checkout line to see if I can persuade her to give me another chance at just talking). I thought about doing it this week, but then only two weeks would have elapsed since that last Facebook message I sent her. I've thought about maybe going after New Years and saying, "It's a New Year, can we start fresh?" I don't know if I can wait that long, or if I should even do that much. I feel like I'm dying inside. The anxiety is so much for me to bear. My work is suffering, nothing seems to keep my mind off her for very long. I can barely sleep.

 

I went 16 years between harboring this kind of interest for someone. What if it will be another 16 years before the next woman comes along? I don't want to wait forever.

[NavyAirTraffic]

You are soooo smart but I want to punch you in the face!! Only way to salvage this (with your actions I'd say you have a less than 1% chance) is to never contact her again, evvveeerrrrr!!! Why you ask, because she has clearly told you this is what she wants. Anything after that (even 1 more text) is psycho.

 

Ok, bad part over, really sorry for above. The good part is you have learned that you can't do anything to change how they feel. Doesn't matter how nice you are, people make up their minds and move on sometimes. Next time you'll understand that no means no. I know you know all this already, you are soooo friggen smart it hurts me to see you act so irrational.

 

Chalk it up to a loss and next time you meet someone like her (someone you care for) don't leave anything on the table. I KNOW you regret so many things that you could've done when she was into you. Next time leave no room for regret. I'll get to the point, every girl I didn't sleep with, treat like a porn star, ended up losing interest. Then I'm stuck regretting being too nice and not laying pipe (sorry for that, nasty I know).

 

Look in the mirror and tell yourself, "she's with someone else, I don't chase people who are with someone else, I don't chase people not interested in me. She lost, I will do better. I'll bring my model gf to her restaurant one day".

Edited December 11, 2012 by NavyAirTraffic

[Jefezen]

Navy, rationally, I know you're right. Rationally, I know it's over. Rationally, I know that I shouldn't be this upset over losing someone I never really had in the first place. Rationally, I know that a big part of my depression might have more to do with the loneliness of not having a girl around who pays so much attention to me as she did, more than the girl herself. Like I said before, even when things were going well, I had some reservations about her, but I chose to overlook them because of how attractive she usually was, and how much I enjoyed being in her presence. Just being seen alone in public with her made me happy. Every time I received a text from her, my heart would flutter.

 

There were definitely warning signs from fairly early on that this wasn't going to go my way. She spoke of many other male friends. She told me about one of them who taught her how to swim, another one who played basketball with her, another who taught her how to drive and took her out to expensive dinners. There were other guys who would pick her up from work and drop her off at home. There were guys who would call to meet up with her for coffee. There were guys who she'd go out with to clubs. On Facebook, there was an endless stream of guys posting flirtatious comments on her page, and her responding in kind. Yet when I'd flirt a little, she never really reciprocated, she seemed almost mildly uncomfortable by it.

 

Sometimes I'd give her little gifts, nothing expensive, more of the thoughtful variety to show that I listen to what she likes and care about her well-being. For example, she said she had trouble finding a certain kind of food since moving to this country. I found it for her and also added little cat stickers to the front of the box "to ward off the mice." (She'd sometimes grab my arm and hide behind me when she saw a rodent).

 

She routinely referred to the various guys as friends. She explained to me that one of the reasons for her marital problems was the jealously of her husband. He didn't want her interacting with all these people. That doesn't justify him physically beating her, but apparently marriage didn't slow down her social life with the opposite sex.

 

It made me very jealous to learn of all these other guys in her life, but I nevertheless had the impression that she spent more time with me than the rest of them. I took solace in that, and also figured that I had an advantage over many of them because they mostly appeared to be blue collar. I thought I had more to offer than them, and she even told me as much, at times, saying she found me very educational and interesting.

 

What I don't understand is how she could lose interest in me so quickly and so suddenly to the point of cutting me out of her life completely over a couple questions about her new boyfriend. I know I made things worse by the way I pushed her to talk, but why was she refusing to talk to me in the first place? Why was she so inconsiderate? Why couldn't she give me the one thing I ever asked of her? Why did she outright lie to me about being Miss Open and Honest who doesn't keep secrets? Had she been straightforward with me, as she had promised to be, the situation never would have escalated because she either would have answered my questions or gently told me to refrain from asking about it. Instead, she just blew me off. And the more she blew me off, the harder I pushed for answers. Now it's realistically too late and I don't know what to do with myself.

 

Last week, I thought I was getting better. I've read your no contact manifesto. I've read through various other no contact threads. On an intellectual level I understand and agree with everything you and others have offered with your sound wisdom. Yet none of it registers with my heart. I've never felt so desperate. I'm jumping out of my skin. It's taking every last ounce of self-control to prevent myself from driving to her work and approaching her at the checkout counter. I'm so anxious all the time.

 

I can accept not having her as a girlfriend. I think I really can. I wasn't even completely sold on the idea when things were going well with her (and that's not convenient revisionism on my part. I maintain a journal and I would ask myself after certain outings if she's really what I wanted. I noted my misgivings as they took place). But I miss having her in my life. I desperately want her back.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Jefezen

[NavyAirTraffic]

What I don't understand is how she could lose interest in me so quickly and so suddenly to the point of cutting me out of her life completely

 

This won't be the last time this happens to you, you will do this to someone someday. I did this to a girl about 10 years ago lets call her Sarah, we were talking/dating, then I met a girl that I really wanted to be with (Jamie). I dropped Sarah in a heartbeat for Jamie. I never answered a phone call/text (I think we texted back then lol) I had found someone and Sarah was now irrelevant to me.

 

Was Sarah a great girl? Yes, I loved hanging out with her. Was she right for me? I don't know, Jamie blew me away, made me forget about Sarah. Nothing Sarah could have said/thought/did would have changed my feeling about Jamie (or Sarah). I swear this is a true story (minus the names)!

 

Dude, YOU ARE SARAH!!! It's ok, I've been Sarah'd before too. Remembering this story has helped me keep dignity with every break up since. As soon as a woman has told me "I don't want to be with you" I DON'T WANT TO BE WITH THEM (at least that's what I tell myself), and I back it up by never contacting them again. Why would I spend another second trying to contact someone that doesn't want to be with me?

[salmagundi]

I'm sorry this didn,t go your way and I know how much regretting what you should have done but didn't just sucks. But you have to realize that in life, and especially in love, you have to strike while the iron is hot. She moved on so quickly because she is (apparently) a beautiful woman and she knows what she is worth. She gave you your chance and you didn't take it fast enough so she found another man who better knew what he wanted and was prepared to act.

 

But the other thing is you need to realize is that, in any case, she was flat out on the rebound. So even if you had gone for it and you did end up involved with her it probably would have been stormy and brief and left you even more ****ed up than you are now.

 

I mean, there's nothing wrong with rebound relationships as long as both people are aware of what they are getting into. And you strike me as a 'nice guy'. This is the kind of guy that girls on the rebound latch onto when they need an emotional tampon, because they aren't looking for a challenge. They go for the easy low hanging fruit. That's you. Cause basically you had three choices. Knowing she is on the rebound you (a) go for it and make hay while the sun shines (so to speak) knowing that it is just whirlwind sex and good times without attachment. Or (b) you decide you don,t need the drama and move on to other things and find a more emotionally available woman.

 

Option © is you go for it actually expecting a healthy relationship to result. Which might happen 1% of the time who knows. This is you because nice guys are suckers for women on the rebound...its a role they play perfectly. Its also a thankless role.

 

In my roundabout way I'm trying to say you actually can consider yourself lucky this didn't go further; you only would have ended roadkill and getting way more hurt. Now what you need to do is take the experience for what it is and now work on being the guy that chooses (a) or (b) and never ©.

 

Search 'nice guys' on this forum, you'll learn a lot.

 

Good luck...

[Jefezen]

Salagundi, if she wanted me to act fast, why did she claim to me that she's a conservative Muslim? I honestly thought I was respecting her by going slowly. Was I supposed to ignore that repeated statement and just go for it anyway?

 

I actually did tell her a few times my rationale for not "pushing limits." I flat out told her not to construe my passivity as a lack of interest, or being gay (something I said jokingly). I told her I respected her culture and situation. She never really responded or showed any emotion when I said that to her, but at least I said it. I gave her the opportunity to reassure me that she'd welcome such advances, or that she was willing to date.

 

I also understand what you're saying that in a way I lucked out because the relationship never would have worked regardless, and I'd just be even more miserable after the inevitable fallout. My friends and family tell me the same thing, and I think my rational side realizes it too. She simply had way too many guys in her life to begin with (including while she was married), plus her being Muslim and my being Jewish was bound to cause trouble. The family of the husband she has a permanent restraining order against lives nextdoor to her family back in her home country. That's another disaster waiting to happen. Also, we definitely had divergent personalities and interests. It genuinely bothered me that she had zero intellectual curiosity and seemed almost like a teenager in terms of her interests. I like to think of myself as a little more sophisticated in that regard.

 

As Navy notes, if I was just a temporary placeholder, then inevitably someone else was going to come along to replace me. Better that it happen now than after we actually get involved and I invest even more emotion into her. Why should I fall in love with someone whose interest in me was so fleeting and superficial? If you really love someone, you're not so easily replaceable. Furthermore, the slide into irrelevancy had begun well before I lost control of my emotions. She had already been sidelining me by the time we got into our mishap. I was already feeling depressed over her mere crumbs of sporadic attention. Maybe by not having her in my life anymore it spares me the agony of watching her move on happily with someone else while I harbor unrealistic expectations of a future with her.

 

Then again, I really do think I would be satisified with mere friendship because another aspect of this current depression is my loneliness and the near complete absence of any females in my life, a void which she had temporarily filled, and then some. Going out with her, even as just a friend, made me realize all I had been missing out on by not having that kind of experience before in my life. It made me want that companionship (maybe not necessarily her specifically) all the more.

 

Yet I was also definitely attracted to her. For me to conquer my timidity and directly ask her out still shocks me to this day. I had never done that before, which makes me think maybe I did consider her special. As you can see, I'm a bit confused about the precise delineation between factors of what drives my current panic and woe.

 

What I do know is that I feel desperate and I wish I could have her back in my life in some capacity, even as a mere acquaintance on good terms. I hate knowing that she will realistically never talk to me again, unless I force the situation by showing up at her work, something that would likely just exacerbate our current standing, and get me into potential legal trouble. It's tough. I don't know how I'm going to get through this. Each day without her feels like an eternity.

[salmagundi]

Salagundi, if she wanted me to act fast, why did she claim to me that she's a conservative Muslim? I honestly thought I was respecting her by going slowly. Was I supposed to ignore that repeated statement and just go for it anyway?

 

Yes...

 

I actually did tell her a few times my rationale for not "pushing limits." I flat out told her not to construe my passivity as a lack of interest, or being gay (something I said jokingly). I told her I respected her culture and situation. She never really responded or showed any emotion when I said that to her, but at least I said it. I gave her the opportunity to reassure me that she'd welcome such advances, or that she was willing to date.

 

She did not construe your passivity as being lack of interest or 'gayness'. She construed it as passivity. She may well be a conservative muslim but she is a conservative muslim with a lot of guy friends. What does she keep all these guy friends around, do you figure? And why were you waiting for her to 'reassure' you that she would welcome your advances? Mothers reassure their children. She was clearly (if unhealthily) interested in you so why do you need reassurance before manning up and going for it. Courage, man!

I also understand what you're saying that in a way I lucked out because the relationship never would have worked regardless, and I'd just be even more miserable after the inevitable fallout. My friends and family tell me the same thing, and I think my rational side realizes it too. She simply had way too many guys in her life to begin with (including while she was married), plus her being Muslim and my being Jewish was bound to cause trouble. The family of the husband she has a permanent restraining order against lives nextdoor to her family back in her home country. That's another disaster waiting to happen. Also, we definitely had divergent personalities and interests. It genuinely bothered me that she had zero intellectual curiosity and seemed almost like a teenager in terms of her interests. I like to think of myself as a little more sophisticated in that regard.

 

Awesome, no great loss then.

 

As Navy notes, if I was just a temporary placeholder, then inevitably someone else was going to come along to replace me. Better that it happen now than after we actually get involved and I invest even more emotion into her. Why should I fall in love with someone whose interest in me was so fleeting and superficial? If you really love someone, you're not so easily replaceable. Furthermore, the slide into irrelevancy had begun well before I lost control of my emotions. She had already been sidelining me by the time we got into our mishap. I was already feeling depressed over her mere crumbs of sporadic attention. Maybe by not having her in my life anymore it spares me the agony of watching her move on happily with someone else while I harbor unrealistic expectations of a future with her.

 

Exactly, but at the same time, every mistake however trifling that we make in love is not time and effort wasted if we are able to learn from it and do better the next time. You said yourself that you felt good about going for it and asking for her number, and you should. You went out of your comfort zone, took a risk and, whether you realize it or not, you've grown. Now you need to go get another number. Hell, get tons!

 

Then again, I really do think I would be satisified with mere friendship because another aspect of this current depression is my loneliness and the near complete absence of any females in my life, a void which she had temporarily filled, and then some. Going out with her, even as just a friend, made me realize all I had been missing out on by not having that kind of experience before in my life. It made me want that companionship (maybe not necessarily her specifically) all the more.

 

I totally understand this but that dependence on other people to fill your inner void is sexual krytonite. You need a bigger social circle and to get out and do more things with your life. This will both fill that void and make you more interesting to other people.

 

Yet I was also definitely attracted to her. For me to conquer my timidity and directly ask her out still shocks me to this day. I had never done that before, which makes me think maybe I did consider her special. As you can see, I'm a bit confused about the precise delineation between factors of what drives my current panic and woe.

 

As I say, a big step forward for you, don't regret it.

What I do know is that I feel desperate and I wish I could have her back in my life in some capacity, even as a mere acquaintance on good terms. I hate knowing that she will realistically never talk to me again, unless I force the situation by showing up at her work, something that would likely just exacerbate our current standing, and get me into potential legal trouble. It's tough. I don't know how I'm going to get through this. Each day without her feels like an eternity.

 

You do not want her back because as long as you do, it means you are still the desperate nice guy seeking external validation from unavailable women. Drop her, go NC, find your own validation and then find someone else you can build something real with.

[Jefezen]

She was clearly (if unhealthily) interested in you so why do you need reassurance before manning up and going for it. Courage, man!

 

At this point, I obviously regret not having gone for it. She was definitely interested in me, at least those first couple months. I worried that if I tried to kiss her, she might get angry at me for trying to take advantage of a married conservative Muslim in her emotional state. (She'd cry when frequently talking about her situation). She might have thought I'm just a horny jerk trying to use her. I figured I'd be patient and make my move once she was single. At least then if she rejected me, I'd know it was for lack of interest, and not some kind of religious objection or social guilt. She had also been telling me about how frustrated she was by guys who try to exploit girls from her background because of their fetish for the forbidden and exotic. I didn't want to prove her right.

 

I think she must have known that I was attracted to her because why else would she tell me about her marriage? I wondered if this was her way of putting on the breaks. She's also a very superstitious person. The night she asked me out to a bar, she took one sip of an alcoholic drink, then rushed to the bathroom to spit it out. The next day she got in trouble at work for something unrelated and she confided in me that she thought this was Allah's way of punishing her for that sip. I don't know how someone with that kind of mentality would react to an attempt at intimacy. Though she often initiated hugs with me, I noticed that she hugged practically everyone, so I learned not to make too much out of it.

 

Awesome, no great loss then.

 

Intellectually and rationally, I know she's no great loss. She's more trouble than she's worth. She clearly displayed no loyalty toward me whatsoever, and that started before I acted impuslively with my response to her revelation of a new man in her life. She had been pulling away for weeks and denying it. She had been lying to me about simple things. She had been rude and inconsiderate. She didn't seem to appreciate my generosity and kindness. We didn't have much in common. I saw the flaws and disregarded them because I still found her so darn attractive and cute, I adored her idiosyncracies, I loved her companionship, and I couldn't get over the fact that she had been the one who pursued me harder in the initial stages.

 

Given my lack of experience, I figured this was literally a once in a decade opportunity. Now at 30, with a desire to settle down and have a family, I don't have the luxury to wait around another 10 years for the next one. That realization scared me. It may very well be inaccurate, but I can honestly say that she was only the second woman I ever fell for in my life, and the only one to ever go out with me and give me the attention and companionship I never realized I so deeply desired. She must have meant something to me because why else would I have made such an extraordinary effort (by my weak historical standards) to ask her out in the first place? And clearly I must have been something to her for her to reach out to me before calling or e-mailing her. For at least a brief snapshot in time, and maybe for as long as two months, I think we were mutually attracted to one another. That's something else I had never experienced and I'm afraid I won't experience it again, at least not as soon as I hope. As time went on, I liked her more and more and she liked me less and less, even though I really could see her flaws and made note of them in my journal. (I know I'm repeating myself, and I apologize, part of this is for my own catharsis).

 

Exactly, but at the same time, every mistake however trifling that we make in love is not time and effort wasted if we are able to learn from it and do better the next time. You said yourself that you felt good about going for it and asking for her number, and you should. You went out of your comfort zone, took a risk and, whether you realize it or not, you've grown. Now you need to go get another number. Hell, get tons!

 

I am proud of myself. I'm glad I finally conquered my timidity at least with respect to approaching a woman and asking for her contact information. I'm pleased that I was able to carry hours-long conversations with her and that I had more to say than I ever realized. In many ways, I succeeded a lot more than I thought possible, and I learned that I am capable of socializing with women, even good at it in the beginning stages.

 

I'm now less shy around women. I've been making a concerted effort to go out almost every night and meet people. I joined a Jewish religious/social group, as well as a European meetup group (I'm half-European), an International meetup group, and a political meetup group. I've been going to parties. I've even been dancing, something I never thought I would do as recently as a few months back.

 

Various women sometimes come up to me and initiate conversation, or without saying a word, pull me onto the dancefloor. This helps boost my self-esteem, but it's still not quite enough for me. There's still something about that woman who no longer wants anything to do with me. I can't seem to get over her.

 

While I was still fixated on the "conservative Muslim," and on speaking terms with her, I met another Muslim woman (bizarre, I know) at a Halloween party. She bluntly said to me, "You're handsome, do you mind if I talk to you and we dance?" She was reasonably attractive, nice, far more educated and stable compared to the other woman, but not nearly as beautiful or charismatic. I had a decent time partying with her that night and we exchanged numbers. We texted a few times thereafter. We went to see the James Bond movie together and talked over coffee. She seemed more shy around me than I was around her, surprisingly.

 

She's a financial analyst. She's a couple years older than me. She seems to be in a similar position in life, looking to settle down. We share common interests. She's "culturally Muslim," not "religiously Muslim," whatever that means. But in all honesty, I'm just not that into her, and now I sense that she's withdrawing from me too. I haven't heard from her in over a week, and I was the one who initiated the last two conversations. I feel it should be her turn to contact me the next time. I noticed on her Facebook page that she seems to be hanging out with another guy from her country who she appears to have met recently. He's not particularly good looking, but she told me it's important to her that she maintain her language and cultural heritage. This probably means I'm out of luck, no matter how many times she bashfully compliments my physical appearance (something the other woman never did with me, even in our best times). I had been hoping to maybe explore things further with this woman, especially after the cataclysmic ending with the other one, but she just doesn't seem that interested anymore. I know that this past weekend she went clubbing with the new guy from her same country.

 

I totally understand this but that dependence on other people to fill your inner void is sexual krytonite. You need a bigger social circle and to get out and do more things with your life. This will both fill that void and make you more interesting to other people.

 

I really am expanding my social circle. I already described how above, but I'll detail you my past few days:

 

Thursday night - attended a college alumni event for my alma mater at a lounge. I approached four different women, talked to them, didn't really have much interest. I got depressed comparing them all to the one I'm infatuated with because there really were no lookers in the group, or anyone remotely intriguing.

 

I left that lounge and went to my local neighborhood bar where I hang out 3-4 times a week. I've gotten to know a lot of nice regulars there, mostly older guys, but also a few female employees who are about my age. One of them (who is engaged to be married and already has a couple kids) has practically adopted me. I get invited to her family gatherings. I'm friendly with her fiance, her relatives, even her young children. We talk all the time, especially if it's a quiet night and she's not too busy tending bar. I suppose I ought to consider her a female friend. She's very nurturing, as is her family. I feel like I genuinely can talk to her about anything. We get along great and I'm glad I have her and her family in my life. When I'm feeling particularly desperate and alone (I don't have much family of my own, my parents live on the opposite end of the country, and I'm not close with any of my other relatives), she usually senses it and includes me in whatever her family might have planned. On occasion I go out drinking with some of the other female employees. I'm not sexually attracted to any of them, but I do enjoy their company. This establishment has become my home away from home, a place where I go for kinship. It helps.

 

Friday night - I attended a dinner for the Jewish religious/social group I recently joined. I sat at a table with several girls, none of them particularly pretty or interesting. I still chatted amiably with them and introduced myself. One of them added me to Facebook. I talked to some of the guys too. I went back to my neighborhood bar afterwards.

 

Saturday night - I stayed home. I got depressed when I saw the Facebook status message of the Muslim woman I met at the Halloween party. It was at this point I realized she likely moved on with this new guy from her same country. The two of them posted that they were clubbing together at a trendy lounge. She apparently goes clubbing every Friday and Saturday night. That's never been my scene, but I've been making an effort to improve my dancing skills, and I've signed up for dancing lessons that begin at the end of January. I had been hoping I could maybe go to a New Years party with this woman. Now I'm not so sure that'll work out. I'll probably be home alone depressed, or with the bartender's family.

 

Sunday night - I stayed in again and set up a profile for myself on a dating website. I e-mailed various women on there. None of them answered me. I also signed up for Twitter in an attempt to re-connect with a Latin woman who expressed a lot of interest in me a year and a half ago before I gave myself the gift of a full head of hair. I didn't have the confidence to go out with her at the time because I realized that sooner or later I'd have to take my hat off in front of her and she'd no longer be attracted to me. Even now, I still think she's way out of my league. She really is quite pretty (at least with makeup on, less so without it). She has a young daughter from a previous relationship, but I think I'm okay with that, I like kids. We used to talk a lot on Facebook. I was the one who drifted away from her because I feared imminent rejection. I had no confidence. Now I'm a little more self-assured and am thinking about reaching out to her. It's probably too late to rehabilitate whatever we could have had because it's been literally over a year with no contact. But from what I can tell, nothing has really changed in her life. The question to me is whether she's even worth pursuing. She has a lot of emotional problems. In some respects, her attributes remind me of the woman I'm fixated on right now: beautiful, charismatic, somewhat exotic, lots of male friends, not as educated as I would like (although a lot more intellectually curious), also very complicated due to an assortment of tragic life experiences.

 

Monday night - I went to the Patriots vs. Texans game with some male friends. I didn't interact with any women.

 

Tuesday night (tonight) - I attended another Jewish religious/social meetup event. I identified two attractive women in the group, and a third average looking one who seemed like a nice person. I approached all three of them and introduced myself. One of them seemed to be in some sort of relationship or friendship with a guy seated next to her. This was somewhat frustrating because I noticed her looking my way and smiling a lot. A fourth woman, corpulent, swarthy, covered in acne, was all over me and rather transparent in her interest. I was friendly with her in response. I noticed that a fifth woman appeared to be a burn victim. Half of her face was severely deformed, one of her eyes almost completely shut, her mouth askew. I felt terribly guilty for being so depressed over my comparatively trifling situation. This woman has it much worse than I do, yet her attitude was so inspiringly upbeat. She seemed happy.

 

As we left the building, a guy offered one of the pretty ones (not the woman who appeared to be attached) a ride home. She declined, saying it was only a short walk away to the train, and that she lived right by one of the train stops. Not having had the opportunity to talk to her at the event, I also offered her a ride home, saying I would be driving by that area anyway. Much to my surprise, she accepted my invitation and climbed into my car. She seemed to be a big sports fan (a pleasant surprise) and we talked football for the relatively short drive to her place. I didn't see precisely where she lived, I just dropped her off where she told me to stop. She thanked me for the ride, and said she hoped to see me around. It was only a 10 minute drive, if that, and we didn't get to talk as much as I would have liked. I encouraged her to attend another event being held tomorrow night, but I'm not sure if she'll show up.

 

It felt good having another woman in my car. I really needed that more than I thought. I liked that she was so trusting. We didn't even know each other's names until she got out of my car and I said, "Hey, by the way, I didn't catch your name?" She giggled and we shook hands vigorously. Apparently she lives right across the street from the bar I frequent and enjoys watching football every Sunday at an establishment adjacent to that bar. I can't claim that we had instant chemistry, or that I like her already, or that I felt that same initial spark I had with the married Muslim, but it was still nice to be friendly with another girl, if only for a short period of time. I needed that boost in confidence, especially on a day like today when I could barely contain my anxiety and depression.

 

After dropping her off, I went to my aforementioned neighborhood bar and had a nice chat with some of the regulars. Now I'm back home, in a somewhat better mood (at least for now). I'll probably be miserable again tomorrow morning.

 

In terms of socializing, I know I'm on the right path. I'm proud of myself for finally getting myself out there and doing something about my loneliness, instead of merely whining about it. I still whine a lot, as you can tell, but at least it's somewhat productive. I know what I need to do and I'm doing it. I hope that eventually I'll no longer feel the need to pine away for the woman who no longer wants anything to do with me. I hope I won't feel such an intense pull to go see her and probably humiliate myself, if not worse. If I do go see her, and I think eventually I will just for closure, if nothing else, I hope it will be at a time when I'm in a better place emotionally, and not out of a desperate whim, as I experienced earlier this afternoon. I'm not yet ready to contemplate a complete severing of the cord. But that's my heart talking, not my head.

 

Thanks to everyone for indulging my long posts and offering your sage advice and support.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Jefezen

[NavyAirTraffic]

Did you meet up with that woman last night?

 

I'm 33, I just finished reading "No more Mr. Nice Guy!" by Dr. Glover (for the 3rd time). This book has/is changing my life. I highly recommend this for you. It doesn't teach you to be a jerk or bad boy, it explains why "nice guys" look for validation in women, and how healthy men think. Reading the first chapter was like a huge punch in the face for me, see if you can find the first chapter and if it has the same impact on you (I'm sure it will). I'm not 100% healed, I'm a recovering Mr. Nice Guy, but the way I look at the world is beginning to change. I guarantee that if you were a healthy man you would've disqualified her from a potential mate very early on (given the negatives you pointed out).

 

I'll give you some examples. Nice guys put everyone else's needs first, especially their significant other. They think that if they have needs/feelings/desires this is perceived as weak and they will lose validation from others. In your case you had the need to be with her sexually but expressing this could have brought rejection from her, and you weren't willing to lose her validation. Your needs became second. Nice guys don't have clear boundaries, because having boundaries forces you to express that they are being crossed, which might make the other person angry, which you feel will make them like you less (lose validation). You enter into "covert contracts", "I'm not going to say it but if I do this for you, you have to be nice to me and not leave me". How you did things for her, paid for everything, always there if she needed you and wanted nothing back in return, except to honor your contract, which she didn't. Now you feel slighted.

 

I could go on and on. If any of that sounds like you, pick up the book. For me it was like the matrix, when neo took the red pill. I am dating a girl and I have clear boundaries, she crossed one last night. I told her her behavior was unacceptable and I was disappointed. I would've never done this before. I'm still good to her but my needs come first! She told her friend the other day that she respects me because I'm not a pushover. She's fully aware I have needs, the other night I wanted to go out with a friend, she was upset and wanted me to do something with her. I told her no, I made plans and I'm not breaking them. She apologized later that night for being demanding.

 

People won't push you away for having needs/feelings/boundaries (being human). I've found they'll draw you closer.

Edited December 12, 2012 by NavyAirTraffic

[Jefezen]

Did you meet up with that woman last night?

I merely drove her home and that was the end of it. I'll definitely talk to her more the next time I see her, which hopefully will be tonight if she decides to attend another of the social group's events.

 

If I'm to be completely honest with myself, though, I have to admit that I'm not particularly interested in her for her. I think I'm looking more for a distraction from the one who broke off all contact with me. I just want a reasonable attractive and interesting single girl in my life, even if only as a friend. I want that validation, as you put it. I can't take being alone anymore.

 

I'm a recovering Mr. Nice Guy, but the way I look at the world is beginning to change. I guarantee that if you were a healthy man you would've disqualified her from a potential mate very early on (given the negatives you pointed out).

I know I'm not mentally healthy. I have severe emotional insecurities and vulnerabilities. I tend to latch onto any remotely attractive woman who pays any kind of attention to me because it's so rare.

 

Once upon a time, I thought I liked the female bartender friend I mentioned too. I loved that she talked to me and seemed to enjoy it. That's why I became a regular at that bar. I just wanted to be with her. I loved that she would smile at me. I loved that she trusted me enough to let me drive her places and hang out. I would get jealous when she paid attention to other customers, or hugged them and not me. I would genuinely get depressed over it, not to the extent that I am now with this married Muslim woman, but it affected me. Eventually I found out about her live-in boyfriend and I got to know him too. I lost any mild romantic interest I may have had, but we still remained friends, and it was truly good enough for me to just have her around platonically. I honestly believe that if I can get this married Muslim woman to talk to me again, I would be content having her as only a friend too.

 

Nice guys don't have clear boundaries, because having boundaries forces you to express that they are being crossed, which might make the other person angry, which you feel will make them like you less (lose validation). You enter into "covert contracts", "I'm not going to say it but if I do this for you, you have to be nice to me and not leave me". How you did things for her, paid for everything, always there if she needed you and wanted nothing back in return, except to honor your contract, which she didn't. Now you feel slighted.

That sounds like an exact description of me, except for the paying for everything part. I would try to pay for everything but sometimes she would insist on paying the bill herself. Sometimes she was the one to treat me to dinner, over my protestations. There's a toll booth near where she lives and she'd try to cover that too, forcing money into my hands. I remember telling her that by tradition, which she claims to adhere to, it's the man who pays for everything. She replied, "Yes, but we're friends, so that doesn't apply." That comment felt like a dagger to the heart but I tried to ignore it, thinking that maybe it was just too early for her to consider me as more than a friend.

 

People won't push you away for having needs/feelings/boundaries (being human). I've found they'll draw you closer.

 

I had a need to know who the new guy in her life was, how long she had known him, and whether he was Muslim (for my own peace of mind because I could accept losing out to someone on the basis of cultural compatibility). My feelings were hurt and I just wanted to talk to her about it, something she claimed to be willing to do ("I believe in open and honest communication, I don't keep secrets" was practically her mantra, what a farce). She refused to be there the one time I needed her. This vexed me beyond belief. I didn't feel like I was asking for too much. She wouldn't even give me an, "I don't want to talk about it," which I would have accepted. All I got was total silence.

 

I confronted her, quite gently at first, and she completely ignored my requests. I lost my cool and called and texted her a bunch of times over the next couple days, trying to get a response out of her. Then I showed up at her work, waited for her outside, asked again politely, not in any kind of physically or verbally abusive way, but it was still a stalkerish ambush of sorts, and probably the only major mistake I made in terms of my conduct.

 

I was just so angry and emotionally desperate for answers. She had crossed my boundary. No more complete Mr. Nice Guy. I have needs and feelings too. I wanted them addressed. At least for me, this completely backfired. Had I kept my emotions to myself, had I simply disregarded my needs, my impulses, my boundaries, I'd probably still be on decent speaking terms with her right now. I tried sending a lengthy Facebook message of apology. I tried asking her if we could work things out. She ignored both messages.

 

She'll likely never talk to me again unless I force the issue once more by showing up at her work. So I'm not sure I agree that addressing my needs, feelings and boundaries helped in this instance. I had already lost her as a potential lover, and by confronting her, I lost her as a friend too. As imperfect and as one-dimensional as that friendship was, and despite the many times I stayed quiet when I caught her in painful lies (e.g. I made detailed plans with her for Halloween weeks in advance, I adjusted my work schedule to have the day off for her, she cancelled on me at the last second claiming she was too tired, only for me to see her post a whole bunch of pictures on her Facebook page out partying with other people the same day), I preferred it to the nothing that I have now.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Jefezen

[NavyAirTraffic]

That sounds like an exact description of me, except for the paying for everything part. I would try to pay for everything but sometimes she would insist on paying the bill herself. Sometimes she was the one to treat me to dinner, over my protestations. There's a toll booth near where she lives and she'd try to cover that too, forcing money into my hands. I remember telling her that by tradition, which she claims to adhere to, it's the man who pays for everything. She replied, "Yes, but we're friends, so that doesn't apply." That comment felt like a dagger to the heart but I tried to ignore it, thinking that maybe it was just too early for her to consider me as more than a friend.

 

She paid to alleviate the pressure of the contract. Did she pay more often at the end of your relationship?

 

Also, all the things above are for when you're in any relationship (friends or lovers). The boundaries, needs, emotions don't mean anything to her now, she simply doesn't care. It's too late now!!

 

Closure doesn't matter. Easy math equation (X=closure)

 

X + she doesn't want to be with you = you aren't together.

 

It's really that simple. Knowing the X doesn't change the outcome, it will never make you feel better. Pick a reason: she's with someone else, she doesn't like you at all, she hates how you laugh, she only sees you as a friend. Just pick one and go with it. If you seek closure from her, it'll just lead to more questions not less. Why don't you like me, why did she choose him over me, what makes me only friend material.....? Just pick one. The real and only closure you need is "she doesn't want to be with you".

 

Ok, there is nothing more to really tell you. Keep being social, read the "no more nice guy" book. Thanks to Salmagundi, you have all the info you'll need. Moving onward and upward is your only option, her talking to you (on any level) is out of your hands. I wish you luck but don't think you'll need it.

[Jefezen]

She paid to alleviate the pressure of the contract. Did she pay more often at the end of your relationship?

 

Yes, she paid more often toward the end. In the beginning she would offer to pay for all or half of the bill, but if I repeated that I wanted to cover the cost, she relented and thanked me. Eventually she got militant about paying every other time, sometimes all the time, and I'd have to remind her that it was my turn. She would get very insistent about it, even over minor purchases like a cup of coffee.

 

Also, all the things above are for when you're in any relationship (friends or lovers). The boundaries, needs, emotions don't mean anything to her now, she simply doesn't care. It's too late now!!

 

The very last time she communicated with me she said, "you are my friend but I am so mad at you, leave me alone. Don't call or text me." I'm grasping at the "you are my friend" part as the one shred of hope, but as I said in a prior post, I suspect she said that more out of fear that I might go completely crazy on her if she didn't toss me a crumb. After all, I tried contacting her two more times after that, two weeks apart, reminding her of the "you are my friend" line and she ignored me completely.

 

Closure doesn't matter. Easy math equation (X=closure)

 

X + she doesn't want to be with you = you aren't together.

 

I can honestly accept not being her boyfriend. I just want to be on good terms with her, or at least on speaking terms. I want to be able to see her now and then and go back to being friends. I miss her company. I miss her companionship. I know she turned out to be cruel, selfish, dishonest, manipulative, and a total disappointment in many respects, but I'd rather have something than nothing. Just hearing her voice, seeing her, being with her, were such delights for me. I had never gone out with an attractive girl before. I loved it.

 

I suppose what I mean by closure is more that I want her to understand where I'm coming from, my position, what I want, what I can accept. I don't know if she read my explanations or not, I don't know if she really heard me out during our one post-fight in-person encounter. She treated me like I'm some kind of a monster, which I'm not. I would never harm her. I want her to understand I'm still the same person who got along with her very well 99% of the time. I got overly emotional one time when I found out she had someone else. It caught me off guard. But even then, I was mostly polite about it. Why can't she forgive me? I'm human. I'm fallible. I just want her to hear me out. If she still wants nothing to do with me afterwards, then at least I'd know I gave it my all. If I'm still her friend, as she claimed to the end, then why can't she treat me like one and communicate with me even once like a mature adult? After everything I did for her, she can't do me that one favor?

 

Ok, there is nothing more to really tell you. Keep being social, read the "no more nice guy" book. Thanks to Salmagundi, you have all the info you'll need. Moving onward and upward is your only option, her talking to you (on any level) is out of your hands. I wish you luck but don't think you'll need it.

 

I'll look that book up, thanks.

[lemonlime]

You know, honestly I think a lot of this is just part of the normal learning curve. Everyone has impulses to keep calling and finding out what happened when someone you care about just cuts you off. I think just most people go through the "psycho" phase in high school and have learned that you have to ignore those impulses, so by the time you get to 30 your not doing that anymore.

 

I also think that infatuation is probably much more likely when you havent had any real relationships. Infatuation is also a normal part of the beginning of a relationship. As you grow inside of a relationship, you know that real love doesnt come until after a year or so of growth together, when infatuation has began to dissipate. As you have more relationships, and get deeper and deeper into love, you realize even the love you felt in some of your first relationships was not as deep as you thought at the time. That only becomes apparent when you have something to compare it to.

 

This is just a normal part of the learning process. Your just a bit behind. Focus on letting her go, and knowing when you find someone better, youll get to experience something far greater then what you felt with her. Also, use this as a learning experience. Dont make the same mistakes if presented with the same situation. Even if your saying something polite while trying to contact someone that doesnt want to talk to you isnt going to make them less upset about it.

[Jefezen]

You know, honestly I think a lot of this is just part of the normal learning curve. Everyone has impulses to keep calling and finding out what happened when someone you care about just cuts you off. I think just most people go through the "psycho" phase in high school and have learned that you have to ignore those impulses, so by the time you get to 30 your not doing that anymore.

If I had other women in my life, I probably wouldn't be so preoccupied and panic-stricken about this one. I'd just say to myself, "Oh well, one down, five others to contemplate, her loss" and move on. After all, why should I want to be with someone who no longer wants to be with me? Why should I want to even be friends with someone who would be so cruel and unreasonable as to not let me talk things out calmly and peacefully (which is all I ever asked for, and all I've been looking for)? Why should I try to force myself into an awkward, undignified, strained acquaintanceship borne out of pity, which is realistically the most I could ever hope for at this point? All of that rationale might mean something to me, might register with me, if I had other women.

 

She has no problem throwing me by the wayside because she already had tons of other guy friends and dating options. I'm amazed that someone like her ever agreed to go out with me at all, let alone as often as we did (but that's another reason for my depression - I usually can't even dream of competing for girls in that league, and somehow I came close to succeeding with one, at least for a time).

 

The only other woman in my life right now is a platonic friend with a fiance and two kids. I'm glad I have her, but it's not the same as the illusion of an actual relationship, like the one I had with the woman who cut me off. I know we weren't boyfriend-girlfriend, but sometimes it felt like it. There were certain moments, outings, and environments that had the trappings of a real relationship. I had never experienced those before with anyone else. Realizing that I've probably lost that now forever is very hard to bear. I'm so emotionally distraught and anxious over it, I've made myself physically ill. I feel like jumping out of my skin. I'm constantly on edge. Each day without seeing her, without contact from her, feels like an eternity. I feel like there's no hope for me, even though rationally, I know that she wasn't going to be the one anyway, and that I had already lost her as a potential girlfriend before my outburst. It's a very bizarre divide between head and heart.

 

I also think that infatuation is probably much more likely when you havent had any real relationships. Infatuation is also a normal part of the beginning of a relationship. As you grow inside of a relationship, you know that real love doesnt come until after a year or so of growth together, when infatuation has began to dissipate. As you have more relationships, and get deeper and deeper into love, you realize even the love you felt in some of your first relationships was not as deep as you thought at the time. That only becomes apparent when you have something to compare it to.

I concur with you completely, Lemon. My brain tells me the exact same thing. In fact, past experience (limited as mine has been) tells me the exact same thing. I was infatuated with a girl in high school. I didn't get what I wanted with her. I felt miserable for literally years. I became sullen and chronically depressed. I withdrew from socializing. I never thought I would get over her. Yet eventually I did, and now when I look back on it, I don't care anymore. She doesn't mean anything to me now.

 

There was another girl I met online. I became infatuated with her too. I devised all these elaborate plans for how I would win her heart. I stressed myself out beyond belief over whether she reciprocated my feelings, and whether I'd ever have a chance with her. I was incorrigibly jealous of any man she had ever been with, and might want to be with in the future. There was an in-person sexual component to this relationship (unlike in the non-relationship relationship that just ended for me), but once again, I ultimately failed in turning it into what I wanted most, which was more the boyfriend-girlfriend companionship aspect. I got depressed, I felt ill, I had panic attacks. I couldn't concentrate on my work. I lost the ability to have fun. I was absolutely miserable. But then I suddenly met my current fixation and the other girl ceased to mean anything to me. I can look at pictures of her on Facebook now, I can imagine her sleeping with other guys, it no longer affects me whatsoever. I don't even care that we stopped talking.

 

In other words, the good news is that I know I'm able to eventually get over this stuff because it's happened to me before. The bad news is that until I'm better, my past experience also tells me it's going to be a very long, arduous, difficult, painful, humiliating journey to recovery. There are also a few key differences that might prolong the process further:

 

1. My first obsession, the girl from high school, moved abroad. Not having her in the same geographical area was helpful. My second obsession, the girl I met online, also lives far away from me. But the current one lives close by, works in the neighborhood where I hang out the most, and it's just painful to know that she's physically near, yet completely unavailable to me even as a pen pal.

 

2. I never had any dates with my first obsession. Though I had dates and sexual encounters with the second one, they were sporadic over a long period of time, and that girl probably had as many emotional problems as I have, which in some respects made it easier because we were more forgiving of one another. Our decision to cease all contact was mutual, rather than imposed on me, as in the present instance. The woman I met online made it clear she wanted nothing further to do with me, but unlike this current one, she'd actually respond to my calls, texts, or pleas for forgiveness, and I'd do the same for her. That helped. Cold turkey is always tougher than gradual withdrawal.

 

3. As I alluded to earlier, my outings with the woman who just cut me off felt like real, legitimate dates, and early on, the attraction appeared to be mutual. In fact, I think she was more into me at the start than I was into her. My first obsession never showed interest in me. The second one seemed to more go along with my advances out of her own insecurity and desperation than a genuine interest. At least with this one it seemed real for a little while. I had never had that before.

 

This is just a normal part of the learning process. Your just a bit behind. Focus on letting her go, and knowing when you find someone better, youll get to experience something far greater then what you felt with her.

Intellectually, I know you're right. Emotionally, this knowledge somehow doesn't help me feel any better. While I'm unable to let her go quite yet, at least I am working diligently toward finding a replacement. That's something I've never really tried before. It took way too long for this to happen, but I've finally begun to crawl out of the proverbial shell, and I'm doing okay at chatting with women. There just aren't any that really capture my interest yet, which might be another reason I'm still fixated on the one who cut me off.

 

Also, use this as a learning experience. Dont make the same mistakes if presented with the same situation. Even if your saying something polite while trying to contact someone that doesnt want to talk to you isnt going to make them less upset about it.

In my defense, and trying to be as objective as I can be, I still maintain that she overreacted quite a bit to my initial text messages. "If I may ask, is he Muslim?" shouldn't be grounds for a tantrum. Nor should calling four times, without leaving messages, over a two day period. I've heard, seen, and read of much worse with other people, and they made nothing of it.

 

That being said, I've learned not to persist once I detect a reluctance to answer a question. That was a mistake. Despite remaining polite throughout, I should have dropped my inquiry after the second unanswered text/call, at the very latest, and I never should have waited for her outside her work (although by then, she was already inexplicably livid). She already informed me that she had another guy in her life and no longer wanted to pseudo-date me. I should have just accepted that at face value and not required any further explanation. What practical difference would it really have made? Either way, I had lost her as a potential girlfriend, and at least by not asking, I would have been able to keep her around on the periphery as a female acquaintance.

 

I just wish she could be more forgiving. I made some mistakes, but she's treating me like some kind of vile and violent criminal. I'm not. I don't understand why she can't just get over what happened and forgive me. I was so generous to her, so good to her throughout, and she can't give me this one mulligan? It irks me to no end.

[road]

You got money and got your bald head fixed. Now take some more money and get your eyes and ears fixed.

 

At best this girl found out you were a lawyer. She needed legal help. She is hot so she figures you would help her for free. There is no guy that would not use his employment expertise to get a girl to date him. All women know this.

 

Instead of flowers and candy, just another way to win her heart.

 

She played you. I'm chaste, I'm conservative, I'm a good girl. All to keep you at arms length. It worked. You wanted her bad but were willing to move slow so as to not lose her. She read you like a book.

 

Some girls get addicted to the power trip seeing how many guys she can string along in the friend orbit. Always making it appear that any day she is going to move you into boy friend status.

 

To pick up these subtle signs are hard. Specially when a guy wants a girl friend and he is operating with integrity.

 

You asking her is the new guy muslim was pointless. Does not matter if the guy had a gerkin between his legs or he was hung as a horse and his nick name was kick stand, or tripod. She got what she wanted from you and is done with you.

 

She booted you out of the friend orbit because her current need for a lawyer is zero and you were too much work keeping you under her control in the friend orbit. Your potential for free legal work was not the effort to keep you as a friend.

 

Thing is she will some day call you for legal help when she needs it because you have repeatedly shown her that you want her bad from the way you have never stopped chasing her.

 

Instead of moving on your posting here shows that you still have not stopped chasing her. You are not contacting her so you may think that you are not chasing her.

 

But it is clear that you are chasing because you hoping each day is the day she calls you.

[Jefezen]

 

Now take some more money and get your eyes and ears fixed.

 

My eyes and ears work fine. Intellectually, I know this was not a relationship that would ultimately work out. I already knew there was too much baggage, too many other guys in her orbit, too many secrets and lies, too many incongruencies between what we wanted, too many incompatibilities in personality and culture. I questioned to myself whether I truly wanted her even when everything was going seemingly well. That's not convenient post-fight revisionism either. I maintain a journal semi-regularly, and I wrote down many of these doubts as they developed, beginning early on in the courtship.

 

I also understand that if a woman doesn't want you, it's over, no matter how hard you try to win her back. This holds especially true when you never really had her in the first place, as in my case. I get all that, I really do; I know that even in completely innocent scenarios without all the attendant drama, these sorts of things happen as just a general part of the dating experience, and you just move on and grow from it.

 

My problem isn't a lack of comprehension. My problem isn't an inability to analytically assess my situation. My problem is that rational thought seems to bear no impact on controlling my emotional impulses and my feelings of loss, abandonment, defeat, depression, despair, despondence, emptiness, loneliness, and solitude. No matter how rationally I think through something, those negative impulses, those negative feelings, don't evaporate. They linger for way too long, often intensifying over time before finally fading, sometimes years later.

 

These emotions and feelings literally make me physically ill. I am constantly anxious, nauseous, distracted, stressed, uncomfortable, upset. Negativity and desperation consume me. I can't seem to filter my thoughts or channel them in a productive manner for more than short bursts of time. My intellect and rationality are present, they just fail to win the war against feelings and emotions. I wish that weren't the case, but it is what it is, and I don't know how to cope.

 

I think I suffer from some kind of obsessive-attachment disorder. I hate to lose anyone permanently. Just the word permanent, the concept of permanence, distresses me. I am hyper-sensitive to it. I know I ought to care about personal honor and integrity, and not chase after someone who so callously doesn't want to be with me, yet I would rather have crumbs of pity than nothing whatsoever. I'd prefer to fill my voids a mere fraction of the way than leave them on empty as I search for more fulfilling replacements.

 

Past experience tells me that it's only when I find these replacements (which unfortunately can take several years for me) that I'm finally able to pull away from a prior attachment, sever the tie completely, and then wonder in complete calm, tranquility, and even bemusement, why I ever felt so bound to that person.

 

But I'm not there yet; and while I really am making an effort to find that replacement, as opposed to in the past when I would hope for the person to somehow magically walk through my door, I know it will take time, too much time.

 

Emotionally, I can't let go of one entanglement, toxic and as imperfect as it may be, until there's another to take its place. Just being able to talk to this woman who cut me off would possibly be enough to hold me over until I find someone else, preferably someone a lot better. I'm not harboring unrealistic expectations of a complete reconciliation and blooming romance. I'll take crumbs. That's how in need I am.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Jefezen